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Re: copper disk

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  • Vince
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Azurite-velvet-beauty.jpg
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 8, 2010
      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Azurite-velvet-beauty.jpg


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:
      >
      > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
      > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
      >
    • Susan
      A scroll down the following site shows photos of azurite and copper w/other similar minerals, though not turqouise. (Note also a sample called copper petrified
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 8, 2010

        A scroll down the following site shows photos of azurite and copper w/other similar minerals, though not turqouise. (Note also a sample called copper petrified wood) 

        http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/029/index.html

        Char, when able to see photos of the artifacts mentioned in your post, perhaps you will find people knowledgeable about PreColumbian jewelry.  I did not see photos akin to your descriptions at this History of Jewelry - PreColumbian site.  Will be curious to learn if the copper discs with holes are beads, annular rings, ear rings.   Or used for non-adornment functions.   http://www.khulsey.com/jewelry/jewelry_history_pre-columbian.html

        A Poll of our small group might be interesting sometime.  It would be my bet that most regulars here believe there was extensiveb ongoing two-way traffic, trade, and genetic diffusion between all of the Americas, including the Mississippi Riverways through the Great Lakes, for many thousands of years.  Hopefully most here are not waiting decades until academics and scientists verify and carry such knowledge and 'proof forward into the mainstream.  But are instead carrying forth within your own lives ways of regarding the world---and ourselves---attuned with these preponderances of evidence, and wisdoms passed down to us from ancient ones of all lands and waterways. 

        Thanks for the posts Charles, and all.

        Susan

         

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
        >
        > Interesting... could the material be azurite?
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, charles bruns charbruns@ wrote:
        > >
        > > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
        > > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
        > >
        >

      • Rick O
        Testing its composition through non-destructive means is easy: weigh it on a good tare type scale, then see how much water volume it displaces. This will give
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 9, 2010
          Testing its composition through non-destructive means is easy: weigh it
          on a good tare type scale, then see how much water volume it displaces.
          This will give its specific gravity. Compare that number to the specific
          gravity listed for copper (Wikipedia is an adequate source for that type
          of info).

          But! to the main point, turquoise in copper is nearly unique to ancient
          Egyptian sources/mines...

          Oz


          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, charles bruns
          <charbruns@...> wrote:
          >
          > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum
          turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small
          hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge. beauty of piece
          is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of
          disc. closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.
          Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).
          I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders
          here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans. Now does the turquoise mean it
          comes from the SOUTH? Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue
          inclusions? Can God cure me of this covetesness?
          > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated
          collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore
          the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any
          idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove,
          without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear
          photo? OAE, char bruns
          >
        • charles bruns
          I could just dive into that pool.  the spots are little spheres (you can see them in material within the center hole)  turquoise blue about the shade of
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 10, 2010
            I could just dive into that pool.  the spots are little spheres (you can see them in material within the center hole)  turquoise blue about the shade of Sleeping Beauty from the southwest.  couple of geode like dot holes where material was lost.  i ask north, south, or west, and the answer comes back 'on the other side of the world to the east. 
            thank you, chb

            --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Vince <v_barrows@...> wrote:

            From: Vince <v_barrows@...>
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: copper disk
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 6:26 PM

             
            http://upload. wikimedia. org/wikipedia/ commons/b/ b5/Azurite- velvet-beauty. jpg

            --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, charles bruns <charbruns@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
            > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
            >


          • Steven Steigerwald
            How can I get that for the Aztalan Museum? Steve STeigerwald To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com; ozman@rtccom.net From: charbruns@yahoo.com Date:
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 10, 2010
              How can I get that for the Aztalan Museum?

              Steve STeigerwald 

              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com; ozman@...
              From: charbruns@...
              Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:53:41 -0700
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: copper disk

               
              I could just dive into that pool.  the spots are little spheres (you can see them in material within the center hole)  turquoise blue about the shade of Sleeping Beauty from the southwest.  couple of geode like dot holes where material was lost.  i ask north, south, or west, and the answer comes back 'on the other side of the world to the east. 
              thank you, chb

              --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Vince <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Vince <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: copper disk
              To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 6:26 PM

               
              http://upload. wikimedia. org/wikipedia/ commons/b/ b5/Azurite- velvet-beauty. jpg

              --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, charles bruns <charbruns@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
              > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
              >





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            • charles bruns
              stand in line Steve, I am getting going on that tomorrow.  chb ... From: Steven Steigerwald Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society]
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 12, 2010
                stand in line Steve, I am getting going on that tomorrow.  chb

                --- On Sat, 4/10/10, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:

                From: Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...>
                Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: copper disk
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, April 10, 2010, 10:51 PM

                 
                How can I get that for the Aztalan Museum?

                Steve STeigerwald 

                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com; ozman@rtccom. net
                From: charbruns@yahoo. com
                Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:53:41 -0700
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: copper disk

                 
                I could just dive into that pool.  the spots are little spheres (you can see them in material within the center hole)  turquoise blue about the shade of Sleeping Beauty from the southwest.  couple of geode like dot holes where material was lost.  i ask north, south, or west, and the answer comes back 'on the other side of the world to the east. 
                thank you, chb

                --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Vince <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                From: Vince <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: copper disk
                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 6:26 PM

                 
                http://upload. wikimedia. org/wikipedia/ commons/b/ b5/Azurite- velvet-beauty. jpg

                --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, charles bruns <charbruns@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
                > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
                >





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              • Chris Patenaude
                ummm,.... just sorta kinda out of right-brain leftfield... a) assuming human enterprenurism was not invented in the 21st century... b) that there s always
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 12, 2010
                  ummm,.... just sorta kinda out of right-brain leftfield...
                  a) assuming human enterprenurism was not invented in the 21st century...
                  b) that there's always gonna be that one guy who tries to get more for a knock-off than is deserved...
                  c) owing to the well known fact, even "back then" (400 CE) that the sign of Egyptian Copper [a high-value piece] was inclusion of blue/turquoise bits (even as small as rocksalt) in the metal....
                  d) and any upper Midwest American having local copper be as cheap as doing a bit of stream-hunting on one's own...
                  e) Would it be out of the question to see Sleazy Racoon of the local village get his hands on left-over turquoise tooling grit, soften up some local copper he mined himself, and thump in some 'inclusions'. Takes a 3beaverpelt priced piece & boosts it up to (faux) Levant Import status. If someone in 'business' thinks up things like this today, you don't believe it didn't happen all over world history?
                   
                  Just a thot...
                  -c
                   
                   
                   

                  --- On Sat, 4/10/10, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: copper disk
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Osmon" <ozman@...>
                  Date: Saturday, April 10, 2010, 10:53 AM



                  I could just dive into that pool.  the spots are little spheres (you can see them in material within the center hole)  turquoise blue about the shade of Sleeping Beauty from the southwest.  couple of geode like dot holes where material was lost.  i ask north, south, or west, and the answer comes back 'on the other side of the world to the east. 
                  thank you, chb

                  --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Vince <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                  From: Vince <v_barrows@...>
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: copper disk
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 6:26 PM

                   
                  http://upload. wikimedia. org/wikipedia/ commons/b/ b5/Azurite- velvet-beauty. jpg

                  --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, charles bruns <charbruns@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > survey this week of mixed finds donated to Halifaxc Historical Museum turned up copper disk aprox. quarter sized, twice as thick, with small hole in center and evidence of tool abrasion on edge.  beauty of piece is a splash of turquoise dots (inclusions in metal)across center of disc.  closest archaic site is Tick Island on the St. Johns River, FL.  Find listed as from Daytona Mound (there isn't one anymore, of course).  I am preaching to the waves here that the prehistoric mound builders here were Olmec or other proto-Mayans.  Now does the turquoise mean it comes from the SOUTH?  Has anyone seen Great Lakes copper with blue inclusions?  Can God cure me of this covetesness? 
                  > it is such an outstanding anomally from the rest of the donated collection. the halifax ladies have no idea what they have, all adore the bead, and have not decided what to do with the collection nor any idea of how to assemble or display it. Any suggestions on how to prove, without damage, the disc is copper? Origin? How to get macro/clear photo? OAE, char bruns   
                  >





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