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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

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  • conner6343@sbcglobal.net
    The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used. It is pure
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 7 6:16 AM
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      The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted.  Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used.  It is pure copper and needs no further refinement.  It does need to be melted however, to make an artifact of copper. 
       
      I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron was also made.  I believe wrought iron was the desired product of the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a wrought iron furnace site.
       
      William Conner 
       
       
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Vince
      Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

       

      When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.

      An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.

      See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg

      Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

      Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

      Any comments are welcome;
      Vince

    • Judi Rudebusch
      Hello, When one thinks of the earmarks of the copper to follow its trail... I am wondering if earmarks are also there for following the trail of the coal found
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 7 9:41 AM
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        Hello,
         
        When one thinks of the earmarks of the copper to follow its trail... I am wondering if earmarks are also there for following the trail of the coal found in the Ohio pits.  Could the coal have come from the Eastern states?
         
        Judi
      • Ted Sojka
        Mr. Conner, The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The story
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 7 9:50 AM
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          Mr. Conner,

          The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to work.  See my post about the native copper site of a week ago.  The story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia.  She obtained some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site would be easy work.

          Ted
          On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:


          The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted.  Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used.  It is pure copper and needs no further refinement.  It does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper. 
           
          I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron was also made.  I believe wrought iron was the desired product of the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a wrought iron furnace site.
           
          William Conner 
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Vince
          Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper

           

          When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone. 

          An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil. 

          See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
          http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg

          Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

          Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

          Any comments are welcome;
          Vince



        • Vince
          Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 7 6:31 PM
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            Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
            http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mr. Conner,
            >
            > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
            > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
            > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
            > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
            > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
            > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
            > would be easy work.
            >
            > Ted
            > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
            > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
            > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
            > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
            > >
            > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
            > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
            > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
            > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
            > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
            > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
            > > wrought iron furnace site.
            > >
            > > William Conner
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Vince
            > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
            > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
            > >
            > >
            > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
            > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
            > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
            > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
            > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
            > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
            > >
            > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
            > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
            > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
            > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
            > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
            > >
            > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
            > > Oil pits
            > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view¤t=IMG_0237.jpg
            > >
            > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
            > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
            > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
            > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
            > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
            > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
            > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
            > >
            > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
            > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
            > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
            > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
            > >
            > > Any comments are welcome;
            > > Vince
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Susan
            Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles? No success for me in the research department of the local public library. Long involved with folks
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 9 11:33 AM
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              Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles?  No success for me in the research department of the local public library.   Long involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:

              METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC AMERICAN SOUTHWEST: http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620

              I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I inserted here and at other web groups:  MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL CAVE IN TENNESSEE (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.): http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023  .  Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:

               "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
              cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
              People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
              penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
              Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
              mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
              peak of about 3,000 years ago..."

              Thanks.


              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
              > http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620

              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Mr. Conner,
              > >
              > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
              > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
              > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
              > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
              > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
              > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
              > > would be easy work.
              > >
              > > Ted
              > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
              > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
              > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
              > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
              > > >
              > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
              > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
              > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
              > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
              > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
              > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
              > > > wrought iron furnace site.
              > > >
              > > > William Conner
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: Vince
              > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
              > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
              > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
              > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
              > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
              > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
              > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
              > > >
              > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
              > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
              > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
              > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
              > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
              > > >
              > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
              > > > Oil pits
              > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view&current=IMG_0237.jpg
              > > >
              > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
              > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
              > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
              > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
              > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
              > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
              > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
              > > >
              > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
              > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
              > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
              > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
              > > >
              > > > Any comments are welcome;
              > > > Vince
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >

            • Dave Goudsward
              JSTOR usually available at a local college or through their remote access with a valid university library card. I think it s a little pricey for most public
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 9 12:24 PM
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                JSTOR usually available at a local college or through their remote
                access with a valid university library card. I think it's a little
                pricey for most public libraries.

                Best bet is to check the website for the nearby colleges and see if they
                offer it.


                Susan wrote:
                >
                >
                > Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles? No success
                > for me in the research department of the local public library. Long
                > involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a
                > copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:
                >
                > *METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC
                > AMERICAN SOUTHWEST*: *http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620*
                > <http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620>
                >
                > I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I
                > inserted here and at other web groups: *MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL
                > CAVE IN TENNESSEE* (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.):*
                > **http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023* <http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023>
                > . Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:
                >
                > /* "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
                > cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
                > People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
                > penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
                > Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
                > mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
                > peak of about 3,000 years ago..."*/
                >
                > /**/
                >
                > //
                >
                > /Thanks./
                >


                -
              • Vincent Barrows
                Here is a link to information on  Copper Inuit that discusses the use of copper among the Inuit. http://foragers.wikidot.com/copper-inuit
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 10 5:54 AM
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                  Here is a link to information on "Copper Inuit" that discusses the use of copper among the Inuit.
                   


                  From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 1:33:20 PM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Heat problem of smelting copper

                   

                  Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles?  No success for me in the research department of the local public library.   Long involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:

                  METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC AMERICAN SOUTHWEST: http://www.jstAlor. org/pss/2561620

                  I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I inserted here and at other web groups:  MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL CAVE IN TENNESSEE (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.): http://www.jstor. org/pss/280023  .  Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:

                   "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
                  cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
                  People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
                  penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
                  Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
                  mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
                  peak of about 3,000 years ago..."

                  Thanks.


                  --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
                  > http://www.jstor. org/pss/2561620

                  > --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Mr. Conner,
                  > >
                  > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                  > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                  > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                  > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                  > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                  > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                  > > would be easy work.
                  > >
                  > > Ted
                  > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                  > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                  > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                  > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                  > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                  > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                  > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                  > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                  > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                  > > > wrought iron furnace site.
                  > > >
                  > > > William Conner
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: Vince
                  > > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                  > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                  > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                  > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                  > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                  > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                  > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                  > > >
                  > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                  > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                  > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                  > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                  > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                  > > >
                  > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                  > > > Oil pits
                  > > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                  > > >
                  > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                  > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                  > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                  > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                  > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                  > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                  > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                  > > >
                  > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                  > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                  > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                  > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                  > > >
                  > > > Any comments are welcome;
                  > > > Vince
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >


                • herbswoods
                  It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 24 9:55 AM
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                    It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement.

                    I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do.

                    The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be.

                    We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape.

                    The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured.

                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mr. Conner,
                    >
                    > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                    > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                    > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                    > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                    > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                    > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                    > would be easy work.
                    >
                    > Ted
                    > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                    > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                    > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                    > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                    > >
                    > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                    > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                    > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                    > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                    > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                    > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                    > > wrought iron furnace site.
                    > >
                    > > William Conner
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Vince
                    > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                    > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                    > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                    > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                    > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                    > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                    > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                    > >
                    > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                    > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                    > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                    > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                    > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                    > >
                    > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                    > > Oil pits
                    > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view¤t=IMG_0237.jpg
                    > >
                    > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                    > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                    > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                    > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                    > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                    > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                    > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                    > >
                    > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                    > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                    > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                    > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                    > >
                    > > Any comments are welcome;
                    > > Vince
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Ted Sojka
                    Someone up in copper country please help us lowlanders out. I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 24 10:55 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Someone up in copper country please help us  lowlanders out.  I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances?  What did Fred Rydholm say about it.   I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.  
                      Ted
                      PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?


                      On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:

                      It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement. 

                      I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do. 

                      The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be. 

                      We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape. 

                      The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured. 

                      --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mr. Conner,
                      > 
                      > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to 
                      > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The 
                      > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the 
                      > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained 
                      > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no 
                      > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site 
                      > would be easy work.
                      > 
                      > Ted
                      > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@ ...> wrote:
                      > 
                      > >
                      > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not 
                      > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region 
                      > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It 
                      > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                      > >
                      > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting 
                      > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used 
                      > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron 
                      > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of 
                      > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, 
                      > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a 
                      > > wrought iron furnace site.
                      > >
                      > > William Conner
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Vince
                      > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                      > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is 
                      > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were 
                      > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. 
                      > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree 
                      > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. 
                      > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                      > >
                      > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel 
                      > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is 
                      > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds 
                      > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits 
                      > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                      > >
                      > > See the following link for more information on these Native American 
                      > > Oil pits
                      > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                      > >
                      > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the 
                      > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in 
                      > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana 
                      > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" 
                      > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These 
                      > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large 
                      > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                      > >
                      > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These 
                      > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not 
                      > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria 
                      > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                      > >
                      > > Any comments are welcome;
                      > > Vince
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • jo samuelson
                      I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 24 5:06 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in hunks or dig for it mixed with rock. You can see specimens of float copper on ebay. I also included the photo blog from Pasty.com with the huge hunk of float copper found in Great Sand Bay in the Keweenaw back in 2001 and also a link to Da Yoopers guide to native copper.  The last link of for A. E. Seaman Minerall museum at MTU. shows copper in varied forms. There are many many more links with pictures for copper specimens. Quincy Mine has a large float copper specimen right by the road in Hancock you can see a picture of if you go to that web site. (I think this was the specimen they found in Great Sand Bay.)
                        Jo Ann  
                         
                         
                        http://collectibles.shop.ebay.com/Rocks-Fossils-Minerals-/3213/i.html?_nkw=copper+michigan
                         
                        http://www.pasty.com/discuss/messages/313/691.html
                         
                        http://www.nativecopper.com/
                         
                        http://www.museum.mtu.edu/Gallery/copper.html





                         

                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        From: tedsojka@...
                        Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:55:37 -0500
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Lake Superior native copper "cold" worked or cast? Also supernatural deities

                         
                        Someone up in copper country please help us  lowlanders out.  I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances?  What did Fred Rydholm say about it.   I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.  
                        Ted
                        PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?


                        On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:

                        It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement. 

                        I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do. 

                        The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be. 

                        We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape. 

                        The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured. 

                        --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mr. Conner,
                        > 
                        > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to 
                        > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The 
                        > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the 
                        > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained 
                        > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no 
                        > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site 
                        > would be easy work.
                        > 
                        > Ted
                        > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@ ...> wrote:
                        > 
                        > >
                        > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not 
                        > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region 
                        > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It 
                        > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                        > >
                        > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting 
                        > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used 
                        > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron 
                        > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of 
                        > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, 
                        > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a 
                        > > wrought iron furnace site.
                        > >
                        > > William Conner
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Vince
                        > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                        > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is 
                        > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were 
                        > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. 
                        > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree 
                        > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. 
                        > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                        > >
                        > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel 
                        > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is 
                        > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds 
                        > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits 
                        > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                        > >
                        > > See the following link for more information on these Native American 
                        > > Oil pits
                        > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                        > >
                        > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the 
                        > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in 
                        > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana 
                        > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" 
                        > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These 
                        > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large 
                        > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                        > >
                        > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These 
                        > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not 
                        > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria 
                        > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                        > >
                        > > Any comments are welcome;
                        > > Vince
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >






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                      • Susan
                        Thanks for sending the links, Jo. A few from Ancient Wateways, including myself, attended the Ancient Artifact Preservation Society mini-conference last July
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 31 1:55 PM
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Thanks for sending the links, Jo.  A few from Ancient Wateways, including myself,  attended the Ancient Artifact Preservation Society mini-conference last July in the Keweenaw Peninsula.  One of our members, Bob Wheeler of Houghton,  was one of the organizers of the three day event and led field trips to an aboriginal mine south of Houghton toward Ontonagon County, also led a discussion and tour of petroglyphs on his property in Houghton Co.  Three or four years ago this group hosted a small gathering in the Keweenaw, stayed at the Lakeside Cabins Resort on 26 not too many miles north from the Great Sand Bay you mentioned in your post, Jo.

                          I received an email from June Rydholm last evening, just about a year since Fred's death.  She is planning a field trip north of Marquette, near Big Bay....continuing some of the conservation efforts the duo did together during their years together.

                          And re: the inquiry from Ted about the float copper: 

                          .... I think of the huge nugget he [Fred Rydholm] wanted to buy for a copper museum back when. 
                          Ted
                          PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?

                          I donated $1/apiece to AAPS for forty postcards last fall with the photo of Rydholm lying atop the float copoper slab (he called it a nugget), and was going to send those to friends for holiday cards but did not get around to it. If any Ancient Waterways Society members would like one, please email me your mailing address and I would be glad to send you a complimentary one.  If you don't wish your address to be placed on the collector card, send a self-stamped envelope:

                          Susan English, 1045 St. Austin Avenue,   Wausau, WI 54403

                          I am sure AAPS would also appreciate a donation if anyone would like to purchase post cards.  I see they are running a special of 15 postcards for $10.  Proceeds go toward the proposed copper museum.

                          http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=44

                          Susan English

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, jo samuelson <josamuelson@...> wrote:

                          I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in hunks or dig for it mixed with rock. You can see specimens of float copper on ebay. I also included the photo blog from Pasty.com with the huge hunk of float copper found in Great Sand Bay in the Keweenaw back in 2001 and also a link to Da Yoopers guide to native copper. The last link of for A. E. Seaman Minerall museum at MTU. shows copper in varied forms. There are many many more links with pictures for copper specimens. Quincy Mine has a large float copper specimen right by the road in Hancock you can see a picture of if you go to that web site. (I think this was the specimen they found in Great Sand Bay.)
                          >
                          > Jo Ann
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://collectibles.shop.ebay.com/Rocks-Fossils-Minerals-/3213/i.html?_nkw=copper+michigan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://www.pasty.com/discuss/messages/313/691.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://www.nativecopper.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://www.museum.mtu.edu/Gallery/copper.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: tedsojka@...
                          > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:55:37 -0500
                          > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Lake Superior native copper "cold" worked or cast? Also supernatural deities
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Someone up in copper country please help us lowlanders out. I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances? What did Fred Rydholm say about it. I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.

                          > PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?

                          > On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:
                           
                          > It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement.
                          >
                          > I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do.
                          >
                          > The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be.
                          >
                          > We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape.
                          >
                          > The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured.
                          >
                          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mr. Conner,
                          > >
                          > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                          > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                          > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                          > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                          > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                          > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                          > > would be easy work.
                          > >
                          > > Ted
                          > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                          > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                          > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                          > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                          > > >
                          > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                          > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                          > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                          > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                          > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                          > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                          > > > wrought iron furnace site.
                          > > >
                          > > > William Conner
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Vince
                          > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                          > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                          > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                          > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                          > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                          > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                          > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                          > > >
                          > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                          > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                          > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                          > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                          > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                          > > >
                          > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                          > > > Oil pits
                          > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view&current=IMG_0237.jpg
                          > > >
                          > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                          > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                          > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                          > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                          > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                          > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                          > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                          > > >
                          > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                          > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                          > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                          > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                          > > >
                          > > > Any comments are welcome;
                          > > > Vince
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
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