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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Fwd: Copper smelting

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  • conner6343@sbcglobal.net
    Ted: American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper celts found in prehistoric
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4, 2010
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      Ted: 
       
      American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds!  I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!"  It just can't be done!  Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros!  They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this!  It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online!   Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper!   A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill!  It's in my book folks!
       
      William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ted Sojka
      Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fwd: Copper smelting

       

      This fellow has done it with coal.  I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.  


      There group is studying archeological 

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: Wayne Potratz <potra001@umn. edu>
      Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
      Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles

      Ted -  We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke.  Ironwain
      A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper.  Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology?  I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

      Begin forwarded message:  Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)

      An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.  

      See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg



      -- 
      Wayne E. Potratz
      Professor and Scholar of the College
      612-625-0021
      < http://www.ironwain .com >
      "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
      

    • Ted Sojka
      In the story I sent about the copper workshop found at Cahokia in Illinois, one of the people mentioned is working on a Masters in Metallurgy and she had quite
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4, 2010
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        In the story I sent about the copper workshop found at Cahokia in Illinois, one of the people mentioned is working on a Masters in Metallurgy and she had quite a time trying to replicate the fine pieces found at the dig site by hammering natural float copper into thin sheets.  See the article I sent in the previous e mail.    I too have tried to work that copper and it is difficult.  It was more likely poured into a stone mold and worked further from there to finer work.

        I remember seeing an exhibit of copper plate etchings of Rembrandt and the signage stated the size of the etchings was dominated by the one inch cubes of copper that had to hammered out to make the sheet for printing purposes.  Rembrandt talent was in making large scale subjects fit these little copper plates.  

        Ted
        On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:59 AM, <conner6343@...> <conner6343@...> wrote:


        Ted: 
         
        American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds!  I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!"  It just can't be done!  Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros!  They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this!  It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online!   Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper!   A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill!  It's in my book folks!
         
        William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ted Sojka
        Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fwd: Copper smelting

         

        This fellow has done it with coal.  I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.  


        There group is studying archeological 

        Begin forwarded message:

        From: Wayne Potratz <potra001@umn. edu>
        Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
        Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles

        Ted -  We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke.  Ironwain
        A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper.  Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology?  I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

        Begin forwarded message:  Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)

        An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.  

        See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg



        -- 
        Wayne E. Potratz
        Professor and Scholar of the College
        612-625-0021
        < http://www.ironwain .com >
        "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
        




      • Susan
        William (and All), Since many new members have joined the past several months, there was no title listed or link to the book you were referring to, and a
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 4, 2010
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          William (and All),

          Since many new members have joined the past several months, there was no title listed or link to the book you were referring to, and a Search listed several William Connor in Columbus, Ohio.  To help members and onlookers at our site who are unfamiliar with research efforts of any of you here, I suggest to all posting that if you have articles, books, web sites relevant to the discussion at hand  that you include the link beneath your signatures. 

          William, since I have you online here, I shall insert the information I have listed under your name withinhe Ancient Waterways Welcoming letter.  Today I added the Barnes & Noble link.  The book must selling well because when I checked the Amazon.com site, only one copy of your book remained this morning.  Let me/us know if you want any of the following information deleted, changed, or your name/information omitted altogether in the Greeting email I send only to Members:

          William Connor (Ohio); Board of Trustees-Midwestern Epigraphic Society, author of Iron Age Before Columbus; http://ironageamerica.com/ 

          Susan 

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <conner6343@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ted:
          >
          > American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds! I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!" It just can't be done! Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros! They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this! It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online! Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper! A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill! It's in my book folks!
          >
          > William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Ted Sojka
          > To: Vincent Barrows
          > Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com ; Judi Rudebusch
          > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fwd: Copper smelting

          > This fellow has done it with coal. I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.

          > There group is studying archeological 
          >
          > Begin forwarded message:
          >
          > From: Wayne Potratz potra001@...
          > Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
          > To: archaeological-metallurgy-research@...
          > Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles
          > Reply-To: archaeological-metallurgy-research@...

          > Ted - We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke. Ironwain
          >
          > A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper. Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology? I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

          > Begin forwarded message: Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)
          >
          > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.
          >
          > See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
          > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view&current=IMG_0237.jpg
           
          > Wayne E. Potratz
          > Professor and Scholar of the College
          > 612-625-0021
          > < http://www.ironwain.com >
          > "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
          >

        • Vincent Barrows
          Assuming coal was used in smelting, is there any evidence found in the Americas of coal mining? Or coal lined fire-pits? The following link shows an early
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Assuming coal was used in smelting, is there any evidence found in the Americas of coal mining? Or coal lined fire-pits?

            The following link shows an early tribal account about coal smelting of copper from out of Africa.

            http://books.google.com/books?id=CU4lAnmnUhUC&pg=PA62&dq=bellow+fireplace+smelting&cd=1#v=onepage&q=bellow%20fireplace%20smelting&f=false




            From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 1:18:18 PM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Fwd: Copper smelting

             

            William (and All),

            Since many new members have joined the past several months, there was no title listed or link to the book you were referring to, and a Search listed several William Connor in Columbus, Ohio.  To help members and onlookers at our site who are unfamiliar with research efforts of any of you here, I suggest to all posting that if you have articles, books, web sites relevant to the discussion at hand  that you include the link beneath your signatures. 

            William, since I have you online here, I shall insert the information I have listed under your name withinhe Ancient Waterways Welcoming letter.  Today I added the Barnes & Noble link.  The book must selling well because when I checked the Amazon.com site, only one copy of your book remained this morning.  Let me/us know if you want any of the following information deleted, changed, or your name/information omitted altogether in the Greeting email I send only to Members:

            William Connor (Ohio); Board of Trustees-Midwestern Epigraphic Society, author of Iron Age Before Columbus; http://ironageameri ca.com/ 

            Susan 

            --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, <conner6343@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Ted:
            >
            > American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds! I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!" It just can't be done! Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros! They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this! It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online! Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper! A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill! It's in my book folks!
            >
            > William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Ted Sojka
            > To: Vincent Barrows
            > Cc: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com ; Judi Rudebusch
            > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fwd: Copper smelting

            > This fellow has done it with coal. I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.

            > There group is studying archeological 
            >
            > Begin forwarded message:
            >
            > From: Wayne Potratz potra001@...
            > Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
            > To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com
            > Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles
            > Reply-To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com

            > Ted - We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke. Ironwain
            >
            > A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper. Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology? I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

            > Begin forwarded message: Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)
            >
            > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.
            >
            > See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
            > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
             
            > Wayne E. Potratz
            > Professor and Scholar of the College
            > 612-625-0021
            > < http://www.ironwain .com >
            > "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
            >


          • Martin Carriere
            There is evidence and modern understanding of working with wet and dry woood to increase the temperature of what(the rocks) you are heating. Our seers still
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 6, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              There is evidence and modern understanding of working with wet and dry woood to increase the temperature of what(the rocks) you are heating. Our seers still hold memories of copper nuggets(pucks) or rolls of bars made of copper and the work involved to tunnel for them. The old stories of permanently burning coal pits in the east of Nova Scotia are part of our modern reckoning of what was known. The scraping out of the stone boat for the Peacemaker may have involved a form of heating the copper rocks until they were pliable enough to work with stone. Other thaoughts can be applied also.
               
              Best for now,
               
              Love to all of you each with such industrious minds and hearts,
               
              Martin Carriere

              --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Fwd: Copper smelting
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 11:44 PM

               
              Assuming coal was used in smelting, is there any evidence found in the Americas of coal mining? Or coal lined fire-pits?

              The following link shows an early tribal account about coal smelting of copper from out of Africa.

              http://books. google.com/ books?id= CU4lAnmnUhUC&pg=PA62&dq=bellow+fireplace +smelting&cd=1#v=onepage&q=bellow%20fireplac e%20smelting&f=false




              From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
              To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
              Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 1:18:18 PM
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Fwd: Copper smelting

               
              William (and All),
              Since many new members have joined the past several months, there was no title listed or link to the book you were referring to, and a Search listed several William Connor in Columbus, Ohio.  To help members and onlookers at our site who are unfamiliar with research efforts of any of you here, I suggest to all posting that if you have articles, books, web sites relevant to the discussion at hand  that you include the link beneath your signatures. 
              William, since I have you online here, I shall insert the information I have listed under your name withinhe Ancient Waterways Welcoming letter.  Today I added the Barnes & Noble link.  The book must selling well because when I checked the Amazon.com site, only one copy of your book remained this morning.  Let me/us know if you want any of the following information deleted, changed, or your name/information omitted altogether in the Greeting email I send only to Members:
              William Connor (Ohio); Board of Trustees-Midwestern Epigraphic Society, author of Iron Age Before Columbus; http://ironageameri ca.com/ 
              Susan 
              --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, <conner6343@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > Ted:
              >
              > American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds! I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!" It just can't be done! Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros! They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this! It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online! Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper! A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill! It's in my book folks!
              >
              > William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ted Sojka
              > To: Vincent Barrows
              > Cc: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com ; Judi Rudebusch
              > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
              > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fwd: Copper smelting

              > This fellow has done it with coal. I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.

              > There group is studying archeological 
              >
              > Begin forwarded message:
              >
              > From: Wayne Potratz potra001@...
              > Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
              > To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com
              > Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles
              > Reply-To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com

              > Ted - We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke. Ironwain
              >
              > A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper. Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology? I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

              > Begin forwarded message: Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)
              >
              > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.
              >
              > See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
              > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
               
              > Wayne E. Potratz
              > Professor and Scholar of the College
              > 612-625-0021
              > < http://www.ironwain .com >
              > "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
              >



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            • conner6343@sbcglobal.net
              Charcoal was used as fuel in the Ohio prehistoric furnaces. These furnaces are far from the coal mining region. Small amounts of charcoal were found at the
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 7, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                ´╗┐
                Charcoal was used as fuel in the Ohio prehistoric furnaces.  These furnaces are far from the coal mining region.
                Small amounts of charcoal were found at the furnace sites as evidence of it's use.
                 
                William Conner
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Fwd: Copper smelting

                 

                Assuming coal was used in smelting, is there any evidence found in the Americas of coal mining? Or coal lined fire-pits?

                The following link shows an early tribal account about coal smelting of copper from out of Africa.

                http://books. google.com/ books?id= CU4lAnmnUhUC&pg=PA62&dq=bellow+fireplace +smelting&cd=1#v=onepage&q=bellow%20fireplac e%20smelting&f=false




                From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 1:18:18 PM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Fwd: Copper smelting

                 

                William (and All),

                Since many new members have joined the past several months, there was no title listed or link to the book you were referring to, and a Search listed several William Connor in Columbus, Ohio.  To help members and onlookers at our site who are unfamiliar with research efforts of any of you here, I suggest to all posting that if you have articles, books, web sites relevant to the discussion at hand  that you include the link beneath your signatures. 

                William, since I have you online here, I shall insert the information I have listed under your name withinhe Ancient Waterways Welcoming letter.  Today I added the Barnes & Noble link.  The book must selling well because when I checked the Amazon.com site, only one copy of your book remained this morning.  Let me/us know if you want any of the following information deleted, changed, or your name/information omitted altogether in the Greeting email I send only to Members:

                William Connor (Ohio); Board of Trustees-Midwestern Epigraphic Society, author of Iron Age Before Columbus; http://ironageameri ca.com/ 

                Susan 

                --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, <conner6343@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > Ted:
                >
                > American archaeologists are still ignoring overwhelming evidence that copper was melted and cast into those big copper "celts" found in prehistoric mounds! I'd like to see them dare to put their idiotic conclusion these celts were "cold worked" to the test by taking some "native copper" and trying to cold hammer it into their "celts!" It just can't be done! Yet this idiotic conclusion still prevails among the pros! They should check out my book "Iron Age America" for my proof of this! It's on sale by Amazon and Barnes and Noble online! Pit furnaces existed in Ohio and elsewhere I that I believe were used to melt and cast copper! A celt mold and other evidence of high temperature metallurgy was found at Ohio's prehistoric hill fort, Spruce Hill! It's in my book folks!
                >
                > William Conner, Columbus, Ohio
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Ted Sojka
                > To: Vincent Barrows
                > Cc: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com ; Judi Rudebusch
                > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:38 AM
                > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fwd: Copper smelting

                > This fellow has done it with coal. I believe he teaches at the foundry at the U of Minn College of Art.

                > There group is studying archeological 
                >
                > Begin forwarded message:
                >
                > From: Wayne Potratz potra001@...
                > Date: March 3, 2010 11:36:22 PM CST
                > To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com
                > Subject: Re: Fwd: Copper Articles
                > Reply-To: archaeological- metallurgy- research@ googlegroups. com

                > Ted - We have successfully melted copper with charcoal and a bellows in a primitive below-ground furnace... charcoal is hotter than coke. Ironwain
                >
                > A quest! ion came up in on line discussion on how hot wood fires could get to work copper. Anybody have any experience doing this above 200 degrees with primitive technology? I know potters who do wood fired pottery that make stoneware, but it is possible with 1000 year old technology on this continent?

                > Begin forwarded message: Oil has been suggested as a source of fuel. (see the article below)
                >
                > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.
                >
                > See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
                > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                 
                > Wayne E. Potratz
                > Professor and Scholar of the College
                > 612-625-0021
                > < http://www.ironwain .com >
                > "Ferrum Nostrum non est Ferrum Vulgi"
                >


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