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Heat problem of smelting copper

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  • Vince
    When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts,
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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      When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.

      An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.

      See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
      http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view¤t=IMG_0237.jpg

      Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

      Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

      Any comments are welcome;
      Vince
    • joe white
      O siyo Vince, We know that charcoal, and bone are used to increase the temp. Bellows are of great assistance with these mixtures of charcoal, and bone. We have
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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        O'siyo Vince,
         
        We know that charcoal, and bone are used to increase the temp.
        Bellows are of great assistance with these mixtures of charcoal, and bone.
        We have not done the experiments necessary to show the results.
        I would think that there would be web sites that would have this data.
         
        Gah gey you e,
         
        Sitting Owl
        Central Band of Cherokee
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Vince
        Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 7:59 PM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

         

        When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.

        An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.

        See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg

        Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

        Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

        Any comments are welcome;
        Vince

      • Judi Rudebusch
        Vince, a quick question: how hot would coal make a fire? Thnaks, Judi
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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          Vince,  a quick question:  how hot would coal make a fire?
           
          Thnaks, Judi
        • Ted Sojka
          judy, with coal or its byproduct coke, you can melt iron.
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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            judy, with coal or its byproduct coke, you can melt iron.  
            On Mar 3, 2010, at 9:08 PM, Judi Rudebusch wrote:


            Vince,  a quick question:  how hot would coal make a fire?
             
            Thnaks, Judi


          • Vincent Barrows
            Judi; Methane Burns at 1150° C - 1250° C http://www.doctorfire.com/flametmp.html Coal burns at 371° C -1090°C http://nepacrossroads.com/about2551.html Oil
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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              Judi;

              Methane Burns at
              1150° C - 1250° C
              http://www.doctorfire.com/flametmp.html

              Coal burns at
              371° C -1090°C
              http://nepacrossroads.com/about2551.html

              Oil Burns at around 200°C
              gasoline ignites at 257°C. Also, temperature of flame from burning petrol is 471°-560°C.
              http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html

              Copper melts at ~1000°C



              From: Judi Rudebusch <judij@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 9:08:05 PM
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

               

              Vince,  a quick question:  how hot would coal make a fire?
               
              Thnaks, Judi

            • Vincent Barrows
              PS bone burns at 600° C- 800° C http://web.mac.com/linnog/Fire_Arch/Bone.html ... From: Vincent Barrows To:
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2010
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                PS

                bone burns at
                600° C- 800° C
                http://web.mac.com/linnog/Fire_Arch/Bone.html
                -------------------

                From:
                Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 9:54:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

                 

                Judi;

                Methane Burns at
                1150° C - 1250° C
                http://www.doctorfi re.com/flametmp. html

                Coal burns at
                371° C -1090°C
                http://nepacrossroads.com/about2551.html

                Oil Burns at around 200°C
                gasoline ignites at 257°C. Also, temperature of flame from burning petrol is 471°-560°C.
                http://www.tcforens ic.com.au/ docs/article10. html

                Copper melts at ~1000°C



                From: Judi Rudebusch <judij@tnics. com>
                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 9:08:05 PM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper

                 

                Vince,  a quick question:  how hot would coal make a fire?
                 
                Thnaks, Judi


              • conner6343@sbcglobal.net
                The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used. It is pure
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 7, 2010
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                  The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted.  Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used.  It is pure copper and needs no further refinement.  It does need to be melted however, to make an artifact of copper. 
                   
                  I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron was also made.  I believe wrought iron was the desired product of the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a wrought iron furnace site.
                   
                  William Conner 
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Vince
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper

                   

                  When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.

                  An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil.

                  See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
                  http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg

                  Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

                  Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

                  Any comments are welcome;
                  Vince

                • Judi Rudebusch
                  Hello, When one thinks of the earmarks of the copper to follow its trail... I am wondering if earmarks are also there for following the trail of the coal found
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 7, 2010
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                    Hello,
                     
                    When one thinks of the earmarks of the copper to follow its trail... I am wondering if earmarks are also there for following the trail of the coal found in the Ohio pits.  Could the coal have come from the Eastern states?
                     
                    Judi
                  • Ted Sojka
                    Mr. Conner, The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The story
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 7, 2010
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                      Mr. Conner,

                      The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to work.  See my post about the native copper site of a week ago.  The story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia.  She obtained some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site would be easy work.

                      Ted
                      On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:


                      The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not smelted.  Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region was used.  It is pure copper and needs no further refinement.  It does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper. 
                       
                      I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron was also made.  I believe wrought iron was the desired product of the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a wrought iron furnace site.
                       
                      William Conner 
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Vince
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper

                       

                      When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone. 

                      An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits for the purpose of collecting oil. 

                      See the following link for more information on these Native American Oil pits
                      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg

                      Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large quantities of natural gas until the 1950.

                      Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.

                      Any comments are welcome;
                      Vince



                    • Vince
                      Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 7, 2010
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                        Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
                        http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620


                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mr. Conner,
                        >
                        > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                        > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                        > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                        > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                        > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                        > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                        > would be easy work.
                        >
                        > Ted
                        > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                        > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                        > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                        > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                        > >
                        > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                        > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                        > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                        > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                        > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                        > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                        > > wrought iron furnace site.
                        > >
                        > > William Conner
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Vince
                        > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                        > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                        > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                        > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                        > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                        > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                        > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                        > >
                        > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                        > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                        > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                        > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                        > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                        > >
                        > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                        > > Oil pits
                        > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view¤t=IMG_0237.jpg
                        > >
                        > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                        > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                        > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                        > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                        > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                        > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                        > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                        > >
                        > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                        > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                        > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                        > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                        > >
                        > > Any comments are welcome;
                        > > Vince
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Susan
                        Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles? No success for me in the research department of the local public library. Long involved with folks
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 9, 2010
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                          Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles?  No success for me in the research department of the local public library.   Long involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:

                          METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC AMERICAN SOUTHWEST: http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620

                          I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I inserted here and at other web groups:  MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL CAVE IN TENNESSEE (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.): http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023  .  Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:

                           "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
                          cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
                          People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
                          penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
                          Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
                          mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
                          peak of about 3,000 years ago..."

                          Thanks.


                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
                          > http://www.jstor.org/pss/2561620

                          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mr. Conner,
                          > >
                          > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                          > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                          > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                          > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                          > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                          > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                          > > would be easy work.
                          > >
                          > > Ted
                          > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                          > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                          > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                          > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                          > > >
                          > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                          > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                          > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                          > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                          > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                          > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                          > > > wrought iron furnace site.
                          > > >
                          > > > William Conner
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Vince
                          > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                          > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                          > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                          > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                          > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                          > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                          > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                          > > >
                          > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                          > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                          > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                          > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                          > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                          > > >
                          > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                          > > > Oil pits
                          > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view&current=IMG_0237.jpg
                          > > >
                          > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                          > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                          > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                          > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                          > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                          > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                          > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                          > > >
                          > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                          > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                          > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                          > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                          > > >
                          > > > Any comments are welcome;
                          > > > Vince
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Dave Goudsward
                          JSTOR usually available at a local college or through their remote access with a valid university library card. I think it s a little pricey for most public
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 9, 2010
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                            JSTOR usually available at a local college or through their remote
                            access with a valid university library card. I think it's a little
                            pricey for most public libraries.

                            Best bet is to check the website for the nearby colleges and see if they
                            offer it.


                            Susan wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles? No success
                            > for me in the research department of the local public library. Long
                            > involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a
                            > copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:
                            >
                            > *METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC
                            > AMERICAN SOUTHWEST*: *http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620*
                            > <http://www.jstAlor.org/pss/2561620>
                            >
                            > I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I
                            > inserted here and at other web groups: *MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL
                            > CAVE IN TENNESSEE* (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.):*
                            > **http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023* <http://www.jstor.org/pss/280023>
                            > . Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:
                            >
                            > /* "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
                            > cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
                            > People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
                            > penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
                            > Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
                            > mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
                            > peak of about 3,000 years ago..."*/
                            >
                            > /**/
                            >
                            > //
                            >
                            > /Thanks./
                            >


                            -
                          • Vincent Barrows
                            Here is a link to information on  Copper Inuit that discusses the use of copper among the Inuit. http://foragers.wikidot.com/copper-inuit
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 10, 2010
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                              Here is a link to information on "Copper Inuit" that discusses the use of copper among the Inuit.
                               


                              From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 1:33:20 PM
                              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Heat problem of smelting copper

                               

                              Does anyone know how to access/copy full JSTOR articles?  No success for me in the research department of the local public library.   Long involved with folks investigating ancient copper, I doubt any have a copy of the Stanley Ross paper that Vince sent:

                              METALLUROGICAL BEGINNINGS: THE CASE FOR COPPER IN THE PREHISTORIC AMERICAN SOUTHWEST: http://www.jstAlor. org/pss/2561620

                              I'd also like to see, copy beyond the first page of a report I inserted here and at other web groups:  MISSISSIPPIAN PERIOD RITUAL CAVE IN TENNESSEE (1984-Falkner, Deane, Earnest, Jr.): http://www.jstor. org/pss/280023  .  Some of you might find the first, introductory paragraph:

                               "Five thousand years ago prehistoric Indians began exploring deep
                              cave passages in the southeastern United States...these Late Archaic
                              People went thousands of feet into the perpetual darkness,
                              penetrating as far as three miles in such systems as Mamouth
                              Cave....On the basis of archaeological evidence, this exploration and
                              mining by pre-historic Indians in Kentucky and Tennessee reached a
                              peak of about 3,000 years ago..."

                              Thanks.


                              --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > Here is a link to an article from JSTOR about Smelting copper in the American Southwest.
                              > http://www.jstor. org/pss/2561620

                              > --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Mr. Conner,
                              > >
                              > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                              > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                              > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                              > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                              > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                              > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                              > > would be easy work.
                              > >
                              > > Ted
                              > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                              > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                              > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                              > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                              > > >
                              > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                              > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                              > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                              > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                              > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                              > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                              > > > wrought iron furnace site.
                              > > >
                              > > > William Conner
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Vince
                              > > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                              > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                              > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                              > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                              > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                              > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                              > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                              > > >
                              > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                              > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                              > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                              > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                              > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                              > > >
                              > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                              > > > Oil pits
                              > > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view&current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                              > > >
                              > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                              > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                              > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                              > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                              > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                              > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                              > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                              > > >
                              > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                              > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                              > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                              > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                              > > >
                              > > > Any comments are welcome;
                              > > > Vince
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >


                            • herbswoods
                              It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 24, 2010
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                                It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement.

                                I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do.

                                The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be.

                                We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape.

                                The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured.

                                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mr. Conner,
                                >
                                > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                                > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                                > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                                > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                                > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                                > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                                > would be easy work.
                                >
                                > Ted
                                > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                                > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                                > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                                > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                                > >
                                > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                                > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                                > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                                > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                                > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                                > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                                > > wrought iron furnace site.
                                > >
                                > > William Conner
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Vince
                                > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                                > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                                > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                                > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                                > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                                > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                                > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                                > >
                                > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                                > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                                > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                                > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                                > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                                > >
                                > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                                > > Oil pits
                                > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view¤t=IMG_0237.jpg
                                > >
                                > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                                > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                                > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                                > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                                > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                                > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                                > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                                > >
                                > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                                > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                                > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                                > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                                > >
                                > > Any comments are welcome;
                                > > Vince
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Ted Sojka
                                Someone up in copper country please help us lowlanders out. I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 24, 2010
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                                  Someone up in copper country please help us  lowlanders out.  I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances?  What did Fred Rydholm say about it.   I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.  
                                  Ted
                                  PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?


                                  On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:

                                  It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement. 

                                  I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do. 

                                  The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be. 

                                  We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape. 

                                  The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured. 

                                  --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@.. .> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mr. Conner,
                                  > 
                                  > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to 
                                  > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The 
                                  > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the 
                                  > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained 
                                  > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no 
                                  > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site 
                                  > would be easy work.
                                  > 
                                  > Ted
                                  > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@ ...> wrote:
                                  > 
                                  > >
                                  > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not 
                                  > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region 
                                  > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It 
                                  > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting 
                                  > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used 
                                  > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron 
                                  > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of 
                                  > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, 
                                  > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a 
                                  > > wrought iron furnace site.
                                  > >
                                  > > William Conner
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Vince
                                  > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                                  > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is 
                                  > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were 
                                  > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. 
                                  > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree 
                                  > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. 
                                  > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                                  > >
                                  > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel 
                                  > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is 
                                  > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds 
                                  > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits 
                                  > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                                  > >
                                  > > See the following link for more information on these Native American 
                                  > > Oil pits
                                  > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                                  > >
                                  > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the 
                                  > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in 
                                  > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana 
                                  > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" 
                                  > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These 
                                  > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large 
                                  > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                                  > >
                                  > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These 
                                  > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not 
                                  > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria 
                                  > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                                  > >
                                  > > Any comments are welcome;
                                  > > Vince
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • jo samuelson
                                  I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 24, 2010
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                                    I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in hunks or dig for it mixed with rock. You can see specimens of float copper on ebay. I also included the photo blog from Pasty.com with the huge hunk of float copper found in Great Sand Bay in the Keweenaw back in 2001 and also a link to Da Yoopers guide to native copper.  The last link of for A. E. Seaman Minerall museum at MTU. shows copper in varied forms. There are many many more links with pictures for copper specimens. Quincy Mine has a large float copper specimen right by the road in Hancock you can see a picture of if you go to that web site. (I think this was the specimen they found in Great Sand Bay.)
                                    Jo Ann  
                                     
                                     
                                    http://collectibles.shop.ebay.com/Rocks-Fossils-Minerals-/3213/i.html?_nkw=copper+michigan
                                     
                                    http://www.pasty.com/discuss/messages/313/691.html
                                     
                                    http://www.nativecopper.com/
                                     
                                    http://www.museum.mtu.edu/Gallery/copper.html





                                     

                                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: tedsojka@...
                                    Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:55:37 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Lake Superior native copper "cold" worked or cast? Also supernatural deities

                                     
                                    Someone up in copper country please help us  lowlanders out.  I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances?  What did Fred Rydholm say about it.   I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.  
                                    Ted
                                    PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?


                                    On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:

                                    It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement. 

                                    I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do. 

                                    The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be. 

                                    We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape. 

                                    The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured. 

                                    --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@.. .> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Mr. Conner,
                                    > 
                                    > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to 
                                    > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The 
                                    > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the 
                                    > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained 
                                    > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no 
                                    > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site 
                                    > would be easy work.
                                    > 
                                    > Ted
                                    > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, <conner6343@ ...> wrote:
                                    > 
                                    > >
                                    > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not 
                                    > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region 
                                    > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It 
                                    > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting 
                                    > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used 
                                    > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron 
                                    > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of 
                                    > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake, 
                                    > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a 
                                    > > wrought iron furnace site.
                                    > >
                                    > > William Conner
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Vince
                                    > > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                                    > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is 
                                    > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were 
                                    > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks. 
                                    > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree 
                                    > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels. 
                                    > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                                    > >
                                    > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel 
                                    > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is 
                                    > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds 
                                    > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits 
                                    > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                                    > >
                                    > > See the following link for more information on these Native American 
                                    > > Oil pits
                                    > > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Pennsylvania/ ?action=view& current=IMG_ 0237.jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the 
                                    > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in 
                                    > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana 
                                    > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers" 
                                    > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These 
                                    > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large 
                                    > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                                    > >
                                    > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These 
                                    > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not 
                                    > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria 
                                    > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                                    > >
                                    > > Any comments are welcome;
                                    > > Vince
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >






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                                  • Susan
                                    Thanks for sending the links, Jo. A few from Ancient Wateways, including myself, attended the Ancient Artifact Preservation Society mini-conference last July
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 31, 2010
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                                      Thanks for sending the links, Jo.  A few from Ancient Wateways, including myself,  attended the Ancient Artifact Preservation Society mini-conference last July in the Keweenaw Peninsula.  One of our members, Bob Wheeler of Houghton,  was one of the organizers of the three day event and led field trips to an aboriginal mine south of Houghton toward Ontonagon County, also led a discussion and tour of petroglyphs on his property in Houghton Co.  Three or four years ago this group hosted a small gathering in the Keweenaw, stayed at the Lakeside Cabins Resort on 26 not too many miles north from the Great Sand Bay you mentioned in your post, Jo.

                                      I received an email from June Rydholm last evening, just about a year since Fred's death.  She is planning a field trip north of Marquette, near Big Bay....continuing some of the conservation efforts the duo did together during their years together.

                                      And re: the inquiry from Ted about the float copper: 

                                      .... I think of the huge nugget he [Fred Rydholm] wanted to buy for a copper museum back when. 
                                      Ted
                                      PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?

                                      I donated $1/apiece to AAPS for forty postcards last fall with the photo of Rydholm lying atop the float copoper slab (he called it a nugget), and was going to send those to friends for holiday cards but did not get around to it. If any Ancient Waterways Society members would like one, please email me your mailing address and I would be glad to send you a complimentary one.  If you don't wish your address to be placed on the collector card, send a self-stamped envelope:

                                      Susan English, 1045 St. Austin Avenue,   Wausau, WI 54403

                                      I am sure AAPS would also appreciate a donation if anyone would like to purchase post cards.  I see they are running a special of 15 postcards for $10.  Proceeds go toward the proposed copper museum.

                                      http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=44

                                      Susan English

                                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, jo samuelson <josamuelson@...> wrote:

                                      I am not an expert on copper by any means but copper comes in many sizes, shapes, and mixed proportions with other elements. You can find it as float copper in hunks or dig for it mixed with rock. You can see specimens of float copper on ebay. I also included the photo blog from Pasty.com with the huge hunk of float copper found in Great Sand Bay in the Keweenaw back in 2001 and also a link to Da Yoopers guide to native copper. The last link of for A. E. Seaman Minerall museum at MTU. shows copper in varied forms. There are many many more links with pictures for copper specimens. Quincy Mine has a large float copper specimen right by the road in Hancock you can see a picture of if you go to that web site. (I think this was the specimen they found in Great Sand Bay.)
                                      >
                                      > Jo Ann
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://collectibles.shop.ebay.com/Rocks-Fossils-Minerals-/3213/i.html?_nkw=copper+michigan
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.pasty.com/discuss/messages/313/691.html
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.nativecopper.com/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.museum.mtu.edu/Gallery/copper.html
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: tedsojka@...
                                      > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:55:37 -0500
                                      > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Lake Superior native copper "cold" worked or cast? Also supernatural deities
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Someone up in copper country please help us lowlanders out. I the stuff found along the beeches the pure copper or stuff mixed by nature with other substances? What did Fred Rydholm say about it. I think of the huge nugget he wanted to buy for a copper museum back when.

                                      > PS Anybody have a digital photo of a piece of the float copper found on the UP?

                                      > On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:55 AM, herbswoods wrote:
                                       
                                      > It is my understanding that Lake Superior native copper is almost pure metal with almost no impurities. The size and shape of the individual nuggets or sheets largely determined how easy it was to work and shape into a tool or implement.
                                      >
                                      > I have many pieces of native copper found on Keweenaw Point and in Northwest Wisconsin. They come in all shapes and sizes. The best of them have symbolic significance and appear in the form of mythical creatures or supernatural deities. The Indians knew and appreciated this manifestation of the great mystery of existence and those in the know still do.
                                      >
                                      > The smaller pieces of copper are easily pounded into simple useful shapes. Depending on their shape and size, some need very little actual working using simple pounding and heating technology. I don't understand what problem there might be.
                                      >
                                      > We know that some copper was "cold" worked by inclusions of pure native silver sometimes present and visible in ancient artifacts. If the copper had been melted and cast that silver would have formed an alloy no longer visible to the eye. Not to say that some native copper wasn't melted and cast. At least I don't rule that out. But much/most? of it was probably pounded/worked into shape.
                                      >
                                      > The greater puzzle to me is where the bulk of the ancient copper went considering the extent of the workings and how much must have been procured.
                                      >
                                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka tedsojka@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Mr. Conner,
                                      > >
                                      > > The pure float copper has many impurities making it very diffiucult to
                                      > > work. See my post about the native copper site of a week ago. The
                                      > > story tells of a Masters candidate from St. louis area that was at the
                                      > > site of the discovery of a copper workshop at Cahokia. She obtained
                                      > > some "pure" copper, and found it almost impossible to work and in no
                                      > > way sounded like the flat thin sheets found at the excavation site
                                      > > would be easy work.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ted
                                      > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 8:16 AM, conner6343@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The copper native Americans used in pre-Columbian times was not
                                      > > > smelted. Native (pure) copper from the Lake Superior copper region
                                      > > > was used. It is pure copper and needs no further refinement. It
                                      > > > does need to be meltedhowever, to make an artifact of copper.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have over the years found evidence of both copper and iron casting
                                      > > > in Ohio in prehistoric times. Also, I am certain charcoal was used
                                      > > > in the pit iron furnaces where wrought iron was made and cast iron
                                      > > > was also made. I believe wrought iron was the desired product of
                                      > > > the iron furnaces and that cast iron was usually made by mistake,
                                      > > > but not always because of the cast iron hand axe I found at a
                                      > > > wrought iron furnace site.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > William Conner
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: Vince
                                      > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 PM
                                      > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Heat problem of smelting copper
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > When looking at the evidence of copper working in America, one is
                                      > > > struck with the possibility that smelting and annealing were
                                      > > > required to create copper celts, spears, figurines, and hooks.
                                      > > > Considering the heat requirements for smelting copper (~1000 degree
                                      > > > C), the obvious question is how to attain these temperature levels.
                                      > > > Wood fires (~200 Deg C) probably did not provide enough heat alone.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > An unexplored scenario is that natives used Oil as a source of fuel
                                      > > > in their fires to manufacture these copper artifacts. There is
                                      > > > evidence during prehistoric times at the Drake Well Museum grounds
                                      > > > near Oil Creek State Park in Pennsylvania that the natives were pits
                                      > > > for the purpose of collecting oil.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > See the following link for more information on these Native American
                                      > > > Oil pits
                                      > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Pennsylvania/?action=view&current=IMG_0237.jpg
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Also, it is known that natural gas and methane gas bubbles up in the
                                      > > > shallow bays and harbors. These gasses could have been collected in
                                      > > > hide bags and used to provide heat in their fires. Local Louisiana
                                      > > > lore is that these natural gasses were set on fire by the "settlers"
                                      > > > around the 1800's because the gas bubbles would capsize boats. These
                                      > > > fires could be seen for miles in the swamps and burned large
                                      > > > quantities of natural gas until the 1950.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Fires could have also been fueled with "Buffalo Chips". These
                                      > > > compact fuel sources are renewable resources and but i am not
                                      > > > certain about the temperatures that could be achieved. Maria
                                      > > > Martinez used Cow chips in her pottery manufacturing process.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Any comments are welcome;
                                      > > > Vince
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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