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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Abalone shell carving; post glacial map of central Calif coast

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  • Deborah Hock
    Hi Susan. Thank you for sharing all of this with me. I am so sorry about your sister. How sad. If you don t mind me asking her name, I have always been a folk
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 2, 2010
    Hi Susan. Thank you for sharing all of this with me.
    I am so sorry about your sister. How sad. If you don't mind me asking her name, I have always been a folk music fan.
    When Boo had to be set free from his sickly body, I could not be present - a week later I found a picture on my computer that I had never seen before. Boo had sent me a picture from 'the Other Side". Seriously, no human could have taken it, as the layout of my front room shows in the photo - it had to have been taken through the wall.
    In the picture is also FatCat (sitting on the coffee table in the middle of the picture), who passed in 1996, a lady (my mom?), and others that have been gone for awhile. I have attached the photo, not sure if you can make anything out of it, but...It was the Greatest Gift of Comfort, and for that, I am Blessed, and, Thankful. He will always be my little boy.

    The abalone shell I was referring to was the post that Vince had made.

    Thank you do much for the site info. The Equinox Project looks hopeful.
    I have tried to get the close up shots on the pieces with the hieroglyphs, but my photo skills just are not doing it. (That, and if I ever have to take another picture, I'll just scream).
    So, I will try to draw the pictures of the primitive drawings.

    I have been trying to research the types of faces of various ancient tribes, and although I seem to come up with only frontal views, I am getting an idea. Allot of these pieces seem to be Mayan, some Aztec, a couple of African, South India, Olmec, and interestingly enough, a few Indonesian, and even a couple of Turkish. These are all still my un-educated guesses, but from going through the styles used in the pictures I found - this is what came up with.
    *Oceanic Art - close set eyes, lots of lines, square heads, long flowing head dresses
    *Indonesian - Monkey, cat like faces
    *Aboriginal - hideous
    *Turkish - Imp like, troll-ish
    *Mayan - Frontal faces. Bulbous noses
    *Aztec - Similar to Olmec, more opened mouths, square heads facing East, trimmed head dresses
    *Olmec - Frontal faces, wide noses, down turned lips, ape-like, square short foreheads or tall helmeted foreheads. Sort of Polynesian looking.
    *Inca - Ornate head dresses, large eyes.
    *South India - Large outward noses, semi hooked.
    *African - Large brows, jutted chins, large eyes, sloped back foreheads, bird like features.

    It interesting that such a mixture of various cultures was found in these clumps of 'mud' that had no sand, but was found on the beach.
    The storms we have had, has washed away much of the cliffs, and all that was, is now under allot of sand - the new beach. Makes one wonder what ancient secerets are held under beaches - everywhere!

    I have been thinking about what you said regarding scientifically cataloging them all, and although it seems like such a huge task, I will try.

    Everything happens for a reason from a Grand Plan, we don't know what our missions are at the time, but in the future, when we look back, we know. So, who am I to fight the task that has been assigned to me...

    Thank you so much, Susan, for all of your warm hospitality, and sincere assistance. You are a wonderful lady.

    Deb.


    In GOD, I will always Trust.

    In Loving memory of my baby boy - BooKitty Feb. 1989 - Feb. 2008 Poisoned by Iams





    --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

    From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Abalone shell carving; post glacial map of central Calif coast
    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:51 PM

     

    Deb,

    I very much appreciate your courage as a newcomer to  our group for your having shared your findings, photos of artifacts, and your thoughts with our group of 67 members and ? non-member observers.

    The following map is not quite within the area you refer but, to give a suggested idea of what the coastline and water levels may have looked,  here is one map of the California coastline circa 13,000 B.C. from Point Arguella to Newport Beach,  From a web site where Native American replicas are made:

    http://www.californ iafishhooks. com/  The photo on the site happen to be shoreline in San Luis Obispo where my brother lived for many years, and I visited many times.

    I know very little about ancient paleo indians of the Americas, their artifacts or classifications of, migrations, origins, etc.  but have had long personal interest in the region of the country where the items you photographed were found.  Intriguing about the total absence of sand within the large object which encased the pieces of bone, rock, shell because of so much beach and dunes there now...makes one wonder how far back the huge chunk of matter that encased the objects you found was from.

    Before the large 7.1 magnitude earthquake in Oct, 1989 (epicenter: Santa Cruz), my only sister, a folksinger, took her life along a coastline near Santa Cruz.  Search parties of hundreds looked for weeks and she was not found until a year later because of the shifting of the sands. Carol's grave marker is the giant rock at Morro Bay south of there and I have not been there for years. I'd spent considerable time walking along some of those shorelines, ridges, then Santa Cruz after the quake as a volunteer.  I'd learned from family living in San Luis Obispo about early Chumash native peoples who lived on islands and coastlines of Cent. and N. California.  I wonder if some of the possible paleoindian artifacts and tools you are working at classifying are from predecessors to or early Chumash?
    I'd be curious to know if there are petroglyphs, pictographs nearby to give you further clues.  I see some east of the central coast in the Diablo range: http://escholarship .org/uc/item/ 2gj7b7gz

    There is a member of our group from Minnesota who is co-director of the Equinox Project in California researching petrolyphs and rock art...the member is Chris (yacrispyubetcha):

    http://www.equinox- project.com/

    I don't know if I see the link or photo you sent, Deb of the abalone shell with holes, if someone wants to point that out.

    Thank you again for Posting, Deb.  Glad to have you as a member.     Susan

     

     . --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Deborah Hock <dbrhhock@...> wrote:
    >
    > Having worked extensively with abalone shell, I found this picture/artifact to be fascinating. (I tried to comment on the page, but kept coming up with a dark page).
    > Not only would shaping the piece without the benefit of motorized tools, take a long time, drilling the holes so precisely is thought provoking.
    > The most remarkable aspect of this piece is how such perfect lines were achieved without the use of a grinding wheel. There are no chip marks, and abalone shell does chip.
    > The shell itself is a combination of shell, metal, and in places, rock type material. From my experience, it would be impossible to create such lines on abalone shell of any type, without the use of a spinning type grinder.
    > Makes one wonder how 'primitive' the ancients were, and how 'advanced' we really are!
    > Absolutely fascinating! Thank yo for sharing.
    >
    > In GOD, I will always Trust.
    >
    > In Loving memory of my baby boy - BooKitty Feb. 1989 - Feb. 2008 Poisoned by Iams
    >


  • Susan
    Thank you, Deb for detailing some of your collection, and for the very kind words in my behalf. Though a novice re: paleo indian artifacts, especially of
    Message 2 of 4 , Feb 8, 2010
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      Thank you, Deb for detailing some of your collection, and for the very kind words in my behalf.

      Though a novice re: paleo indian artifacts, especially of coastal California, most of the objects and implements I have come across are functional, utilitarian and without inscription or design.

      Below are a couple of web sites. The second is a commencial web  site---and I am not endorsing the sale of the artifacts for private use---but I am also a realist.  Until the artifacts are sold,  the photographs and documentation at the web site may prove the only time they will be open to public viewing.  Nor likely to  undergo scientific testing and classification.

      The first site located south of Santa Cruz includes artifacts from approx. 3500-7500 BP," Shell and Bone Artifacts from Two Middle Holocene Red Abalone Middens on San Miguel Island":   http://www.pcas.org/documents/PagesfromV40N1-6.pdf

      Second site: "Western Artifacts" has thousands of artifacts, many with inscriptions, designs and possibly one-of-a-kind items that may never be subjected to scientific testing or public view beyond being temporarily on the seller's web site.  Page 3 of  "Bone, Shell and (Ornamental) Stone" includes abalone shell items and stones with interesting inscriptions: http://www.westernartifacts.com/boneshell3.htm

      It makes a person shudder to think of the unfathomable number of artifacts over the centuries that have come and gone---possibly include items telling of ancient peoples and places that will remain forever undiscovered.  

      I thank the  members here at Ancient Waterways who share collections via web sites, and tours within your homes, I'd guess thousands have passed through the basement collections of member David Johnson, and his father "Doc" Johnson: http://copperculture.homestead.com/ (see addl. collections, links listed bottom of the page).  David told me awhile back no item from his collection will be put up for sale.

      Vince and Sherry Barrows' collections, some of which are on Vince's Home Page and photobucket:  http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/ 

      Susan

       
      M. Susan English, s co-host of ANCIENT WATERWAYS SOCIETY:
       
      PROPHETS CONFERENCES-"2012 The Tipping Point":
       
      THE ATLANTIC CONFERENCE: http://www.atlanticconference.org
       
       

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Deborah Hock <dbrhhock@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Susan. Thank you for sharing all of this with me.
      > I am so sorry about your sister. How sad. If you don't mind me asking her name, I have always been a folk music fan.
      > When Boo had to be set free from his sickly body, I could not be present - a week later I found a picture on my computer that I had never seen before. Boo had sent me a picture from 'the Other Side". Seriously, no human could have taken it, as the layout of my front room shows in the photo - it had to have been taken through the wall.
      > In the picture is also FatCat (sitting on the coffee table in the middle of the picture), who passed in 1996, a lady (my mom?), and others that have been gone for awhile. I have attached the photo, not sure if you can make anything out of it, but...It was the Greatest Gift of Comfort, and for that, I am Blessed, and, Thankful. He will always be my little boy.
      >
      > The abalone shell I was referring to was the post that Vince had made.
      >
      > Thank you do much for the site info. The Equinox Project looks hopeful.
      > I have tried to get the close up shots on the pieces with the hieroglyphs, but my photo skills just are not doing it. (That, and if I ever have to take another picture, I'll just scream).
      > So, I will try to draw the pictures of the primitive drawings.
      >
      > I have been trying to research the types of faces of various ancient tribes, and although I seem to come up with only frontal views, I am getting an idea. Allot of these pieces seem to be Mayan, some Aztec, a couple of African, South India, Olmec, and interestingly enough, a few Indonesian, and even a couple of Turkish. These are all still my un-educated guesses, but from going through the styles used in the pictures I found - this is what came up with.
      > *Oceanic Art - close set eyes, lots of lines, square heads, long flowing head dresses
      > *Indonesian - Monkey, cat like faces
      > *Aboriginal - hideous
      > *Turkish - Imp like, troll-ish
      > *Mayan - Frontal faces. Bulbous noses
      > *Aztec - Similar to Olmec, more opened mouths, square heads facing East, trimmed head dresses
      > *Olmec - Frontal faces, wide noses, down turned lips, ape-like, square short foreheads or tall helmeted foreheads. Sort of Polynesian looking.
      > *Inca - Ornate head dresses, large eyes.
      > *South India - Large outward noses, semi hooked.
      > *African - Large brows, jutted chins, large eyes, sloped back foreheads, bird like features.
      >
      > It interesting that such a mixture of various cultures was found in these clumps of 'mud' that had no sand, but was found on the beach.
      > The storms we have had, has washed away much of the cliffs, and all that was, is now under allot of sand - the new beach. Makes one wonder what ancient secerets are held under beaches - everywhere!
      >
      > I have been thinking about what you said regarding scientifically cataloging them all, and although it seems like such a huge task, I will try.
      >
      > Everything happens for a reason from a Grand Plan, we don't know what our missions are at the time, but in the future, when we look back, we know. So, who am I to fight the task that has been assigned to me...
      >
      > Thank you so much, Susan, for all of your warm hospitality, and sincere assistance. You are a wonderful lady.
      >
      > Deb.
      >
      >
      > In GOD, I will always Trust.
      >
      > In Loving memory of my baby boy - BooKitty Feb. 1989 - Feb. 2008 Poisoned by Iams
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Susan beldingenglish@... wrote:
      >
      > From: Susan beldingenglish@...
      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Abalone shell carving; post glacial map of central Calif coast
      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:51 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Deb,
      > I very much appreciate your courage as a newcomer to  our group for your having shared your findings, photos of artifacts, and your thoughts with our group of 67 members and ? non-member observers.
      > The following map is not quite within the area you refer but, to give a suggested idea of what the coastline and water levels may have looked,  here is one map of the California coastline circa 13,000 B.C. from Point Arguella to Newport Beach,  From a web site where Native American replicas are made:
      > http://www.californ iafishhooks. com/  The photo on the site happen to be shoreline in San Luis Obispo where my brother lived for many years, and I visited many times.
      > I know very little about ancient paleo indians of the Americas, their artifacts or classifications of, migrations, origins, etc.  but have had long personal interest in the region of the country where the items you photographed were found.  Intriguing about the total absence of sand within the large object which encased the pieces of bone, rock, shell because of so much beach and dunes there now...makes one wonder how far back the huge chunk of matter that encased the objects you found was from.
      > Before the large 7.1 magnitude earthquake in Oct, 1989 (epicenter: Santa Cruz), my only sister, a folksinger, took her life along a coastline near Santa Cruz.  Search parties of hundreds looked for weeks and she was not found until a year later because of the shifting of the sands. Carol's grave marker is the giant rock at Morro Bay south of there and I have not been there for years. I'd spent considerable time walking along some of those shorelines, ridges, then Santa Cruz after the quake as a volunteer.  I'd learned from family living in San Luis Obispo about early Chumash native peoples who lived on islands and coastlines of Cent. and N. California.  I wonder if some of the possible paleoindian artifacts and tools you are working at classifying are from predecessors to or early Chumash?
      > I'd be curious to know if there are petroglyphs, pictographs nearby to give you further clues.  I see some east of the central coast in the Diablo range: http://escholarship .org/uc/item/ 2gj7b7gz
      > There is a member of our group from Minnesota who is co-director of the Equinox Project in California researching petrolyphs and rock art...the member is Chris (yacrispyubetcha):
      > http://www.equinox- project.com/
      > I don't know if I see the link or photo you sent, Deb of the abalone shell with holes, if someone wants to point that out.
      > Thank you again for Posting, Deb.  Glad to have you as a member.     Susan
      >  
      >  . --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Deborah Hock dbrhhock@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Having worked extensively with abalone shell, I found this picture/artifact to be fascinating. (I tried to comment on the page, but kept coming up with a dark page).
      > > Not only would shaping the piece without the benefit of motorized tools, take a long time, drilling the holes so precisely is thought provoking.
      > > The most remarkable aspect of this piece is how such perfect lines were achieved without the use of a grinding wheel. There are no chip marks, and abalone shell does chip.
      > > The shell itself is a combination of shell, metal, and in places, rock type material. From my experience, it would be impossible to create such lines on abalone shell of any type, without the use of a spinning type grinder.
      > > Makes one wonder how 'primitive' the ancients were, and how 'advanced' we really are!
      > > Absolutely fascinating! Thank yo for sharing.
      > >
      > > In GOD, I will always Trust.
      > >
      > > In Loving memory of my baby boy - BooKitty Feb. 1989 - Feb. 2008 Poisoned by Iams
      > >
      >
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