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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Early report of ruins ("hewn" stones) in Lake Superior?

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  • Dave Goudsward
    Travels through the interior parts of North-America in the years 1766, 1767, and 1768. by Jonathan Carver London: Printed for the author, and sold by J. Walter
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 5, 2010
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      Travels through the interior parts of North-America in the years 1766,
      1767, and 1768.
      by Jonathan Carver
      London: Printed for the author, and sold by J. Walter (1778).
      pp.132-3.

      Lake Superior, formerly termed the Upper Lake from its northern
      situation, is so called on account of its being superior in magnitude to
      any of the lakes on that vast continent. It might justly be termed the
      Caspian of America, and is supposed to be the largest body of fresh
      water on the globe. Its circumference, according to the French charts,
      is about fifteen hundred miles ; but I believe, that if it was coasted
      round, and the utmost extent of every bay taken, it would exceed sixteen
      hundred.

      After I first entered it from Goddard's River on the west bay, I coasted
      near twelve hundred miles of the north and east shores of it, and
      observed that the greatest part of that extensive track was bounded by
      rocks and uneven ground. The water in general appeared to He on a bed of
      rocks. When it was calm, and the fun shone bright, I could sit in my
      canoe, where the depth was upwards of six fathoms, and plainly see huge
      piles of stone at the bottom, of different shapes,some of which appeared
      as if they were hewn. The water at this time was as pure and transparent
      as air; and my canoe seemed as if it hung suspended in that element. It
      was impossible to look attentively through this limpid medium at the
      rocks below, without finding, before many minutes were elapsed, your
      head swim, and your eyes no longer able to behold the dazzling scene.

      --

      Dave Goudsward
      Lake Worth, FL
      http://ancientstonesites.com
      http://shadows-over.com




      herbswoods wrote:
      >
      >
      > Early Report of "hewn" stones in Lake Superior
      >
      > Reading the book, "Superior: The Haunted Shore" by Littlejohn and Drew
      > (1995), I came across this interesting quote on page 42:
      >
      > "Several travellers have described the lake in this serene mood. 'When
      > it was calm,' wrote Jonathan Carver, one of the first Englishmen to
      > see it, 'and the sun shone bright, I could sit in my canoe, where the
      > depth was upwards of six fathoms, and plainly see huge piles of stone
      > at the bottom, of different shapes, [b]some of which appeared as if
      > they were hewn.'[/b]
      >
      > The book does not state where on Lake Superior Carver made this
      > observation, but perhaps that could determined from the original
      > published book of which there are many editions. I don't happen to
      > have a copy at hand.
      >
      > While it's possible, perhaps probable, that Carver was observing
      > naturally formed objects, his saying that some of the stones looked to
      > be "hewn" suggests a human origin. As 1 fathom equals 6 feet, Carver
      > was looking down into about 36 feet of water when he made this
      > observation.
      >
      > Since Lake Superior has had both higher and lower stages in its
      > post-glacial history it leaves open the possibility that he saw some
      > sort of human-made ruins on the bottom of Lake Superior! This, of
      > course, is conjecture on my part, but something that cannot entirely
      > be ruled out at this time.
      >
      > Anyone with a copy of Carver's Travels might be able to give us some
      > idea of where his observation of "hewn" stones was made.
      >
      > My interest in underwater ruins in the Lake Superior region stems from
      > my own underwater discovery of possible ruins made a few years ago in
      > northern Wisconsin. My webpage is badly in need of an update as I have
      > been there again twice and stories go along with those return visits.
      >
      > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
      > <http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html>
      >
      > __._
    • herbswoods
      Thanks for posting this. From this quote I now recall that Carver took the Chippewa-St.Croix-Bois Brule river route down to Lake Superior at the western end of
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
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        Thanks for posting this.

        From this quote I now recall that Carver took the Chippewa-St.Croix-Bois Brule river route down to Lake Superior at the western end of the lake, and then proceeded up the North Shore. So, what he saw and described as "hewn" stones underwater in Lake Superior must have been located somewhere between the mouth of the Bois Brule River and/or up along the North Shore.

        This would also have been one route used by ancient copper miners coming from the south on their way to Isle Royale.



        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Dave Goudsward <dave@...> wrote:
        >
        > Travels through the interior parts of North-America in the years 1766,
        > 1767, and 1768.
        > by Jonathan Carver
        > London: Printed for the author, and sold by J. Walter (1778).
        > pp.132-3.
        >
        > Lake Superior, formerly termed the Upper Lake from its northern
        > situation, is so called on account of its being superior in magnitude to
        > any of the lakes on that vast continent. It might justly be termed the
        > Caspian of America, and is supposed to be the largest body of fresh
        > water on the globe. Its circumference, according to the French charts,
        > is about fifteen hundred miles ; but I believe, that if it was coasted
        > round, and the utmost extent of every bay taken, it would exceed sixteen
        > hundred.
        >
        > After I first entered it from Goddard's River on the west bay, I coasted
        > near twelve hundred miles of the north and east shores of it, and
        > observed that the greatest part of that extensive track was bounded by
        > rocks and uneven ground. The water in general appeared to He on a bed of
        > rocks. When it was calm, and the fun shone bright, I could sit in my
        > canoe, where the depth was upwards of six fathoms, and plainly see huge
        > piles of stone at the bottom, of different shapes,some of which appeared
        > as if they were hewn. The water at this time was as pure and transparent
        > as air; and my canoe seemed as if it hung suspended in that element. It
        > was impossible to look attentively through this limpid medium at the
        > rocks below, without finding, before many minutes were elapsed, your
        > head swim, and your eyes no longer able to behold the dazzling scene.
        >
        > --
        >
        > Dave Goudsward
        > Lake Worth, FL
        > http://ancientstonesites.com
        > http://shadows-over.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > herbswoods wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Early Report of "hewn" stones in Lake Superior
        > >
        > > Reading the book, "Superior: The Haunted Shore" by Littlejohn and Drew
        > > (1995), I came across this interesting quote on page 42:
        > >
        > > "Several travellers have described the lake in this serene mood. 'When
        > > it was calm,' wrote Jonathan Carver, one of the first Englishmen to
        > > see it, 'and the sun shone bright, I could sit in my canoe, where the
        > > depth was upwards of six fathoms, and plainly see huge piles of stone
        > > at the bottom, of different shapes, [b]some of which appeared as if
        > > they were hewn.'[/b]
        > >
        > > The book does not state where on Lake Superior Carver made this
        > > observation, but perhaps that could determined from the original
        > > published book of which there are many editions. I don't happen to
        > > have a copy at hand.
        > >
        > > While it's possible, perhaps probable, that Carver was observing
        > > naturally formed objects, his saying that some of the stones looked to
        > > be "hewn" suggests a human origin. As 1 fathom equals 6 feet, Carver
        > > was looking down into about 36 feet of water when he made this
        > > observation.
        > >
        > > Since Lake Superior has had both higher and lower stages in its
        > > post-glacial history it leaves open the possibility that he saw some
        > > sort of human-made ruins on the bottom of Lake Superior! This, of
        > > course, is conjecture on my part, but something that cannot entirely
        > > be ruled out at this time.
        > >
        > > Anyone with a copy of Carver's Travels might be able to give us some
        > > idea of where his observation of "hewn" stones was made.
        > >
        > > My interest in underwater ruins in the Lake Superior region stems from
        > > my own underwater discovery of possible ruins made a few years ago in
        > > northern Wisconsin. My webpage is badly in need of an update as I have
        > > been there again twice and stories go along with those return visits.
        > >
        > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        > > <http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html>
        > >
        > > __._
        >
      • Dave Goudsward
        In January 1677, Father Chrestien le Clercq was traveling to visit Miramichi near present-day Chatham when he became lost and was was rescued by a passing
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
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          In January 1677, Father Chrestien le Clercq was traveling to visit
          Miramichi near present-day Chatham when he became lost and was was
          rescued by a passing Native. To his delight, the Mi’kmaqs of the area
          already considered the cruciform a sacred symbol although they had not
          been exposed to Catholicism. Giving them the name of Porte-Croix
          (Cross-Bearers), le Clercq tried to discover the origins of their
          veneration of the cross. Father le Clercq interviewed a 120-year old
          member of the tribe who claimed to remember the first arrival of the
          French, and that the veneration of the cross came from their ancestors,
          long before the missionaries arrived.

          Arcadian historian William Ganong, in the foreword to his 1910
          translation of le Clercq, tends to dismiss the matter by suggesting it
          was either an artifact from a previous missionary visit or a stylized
          bird in flight as a tribal totem.




          herbswoods wrote:
          >
          > Thanks for posting this.
          >
          > >From this quote I now recall that Carver took the
          > Chippewa-St.Croix-Bois Brule river route down to Lake Superior at the
          > western end of the lake, and then proceeded up the North Shore. So,
          > what he saw and described as "hewn" stones underwater in Lake Superior
          > must have been located somewhere between the mouth of the Bois Brule
          > River and/or up along the North Shore.
          >
          > This would also have been one route used by ancient copper miners
          > coming from the south on their way to Isle Royale.
          >
        • Ted Sojka
          Do you remember the old Thunderbird symbol from the Cars? The thunder bird symbols from the caves up and down the Mississippi Valley contain the bird man form
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
          Do you remember the old Thunderbird symbol from the Cars? The thunder
          bird symbols from the caves up and down the Mississippi Valley contain
          the bird man form and the large, seven story mound in the shape of a
          hawk is at Poverty Point and is the central focus of this large
          ancient city in Louisiana.
        • Dave Goudsward
          I ve just added a new folder named Eastern Massachusetts. In it are a couple of shots of a stone with a glyphs. It was found 20 years ago by a Metropolitan
          Message 5 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
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            I've just added a new folder named Eastern Massachusetts. In it are a
            couple of shots of a stone with a glyphs.

            It was found 20 years ago by a Metropolitan District Commission Park
            Ranger in suburban Boston, face down on the ground in a wooded
            conservation area. It is now owned by the ranger's son, who has been
            summarily dismissed by every museum he has contacted because of the lack
            of weathering on the glyph face.

            He's ready to give up on it and has asked me to offer suggestions. Any
            thoughts?

            --

            Dave Goudsward
            Lake Worth, FL
            http://ancientstonesites.com
            http://shadows-over.com
          • David S Brody
            David: Interesting stone. Where in suburban Boston was it found? In some ways, the spirals and crazy legs on the Tanit-like image remind me of the Frost
            Message 6 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
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              David:

               

              Interesting stone.  Where in suburban Boston was it found?

               

              In some ways, the spirals and “crazy legs” on the Tanit-like image remind me of the Frost Valley, NY petroglyph:

               

              http://books.google.com/books?id=yIQfxjbeZ50C&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=frost+valley+petroglyph&source=bl&ots=icgtkqwpoF&sig=RIKuNUX7LtSUCEYjEp53iho4vUM&hl=en&ei=WeBHS_TrLoeulAeJ5okJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=frost%20valley%20petroglyph&f=false

               

              (See page 190)

               

              One suggestion is for the owner to send it to Scott Wolter.  I’m sure Scott would take a look at it and give an opinion as to the weathering and other geological features.  If interested, let me know and I can arrange it.

               

              Dave Brody

               


              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
              Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:18 PM
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Eastern Massachusetts find

               

               

              I've just added a new folder named Eastern Massachusetts . In it are a
              couple of shots of a stone with a glyphs.

              It was found 20 years ago by a Metropolitan District Commission Park
              Ranger in suburban Boston , face down on the ground in a wooded
              conservation area. It is now owned by the ranger's son, who has been
              summarily dismissed by every museum he has contacted because of the lack
              of weathering on the glyph face.

              He's ready to give up on it and has asked me to offer suggestions. Any
              thoughts?

              --

              Dave Goudsward
              Lake Worth , FL
              http://ancientstone sites.com
              http://shadows- over.com

            • Frode Th. Omdahl
              Are there any inscriptions on this stone? Any possibility of closer-up pics? What does the back of it look like? Frode
              Message 7 of 9 , Jan 8, 2010
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                Are there any inscriptions on this stone? Any possibility of closer-up pics? What does the back of it look like?
                 
                Frode
                 
                 
                ****************************************************************************************************************
                Frode Th. Omdahl
                Andrénbakken 10 A
                N-1392 Vettre
                Telefon 66 90 19 41  /  97 09 32 17
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 1:17 AM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Eastern Massachusetts find

                 

                I've just added a new folder named Eastern Massachusetts. In it are a
                couple of shots of a stone with a glyphs.

                It was found 20 years ago by a Metropolitan District Commission Park
                Ranger in suburban Boston, face down on the ground in a wooded
                conservation area. It is now owned by the ranger's son, who has been
                summarily dismissed by every museum he has contacted because of the lack
                of weathering on the glyph face.

                He's ready to give up on it and has asked me to offer suggestions. Any
                thoughts?

                --

                Dave Goudsward
                Lake Worth, FL
                http://ancientstone sites.com
                http://shadows- over.com

              • herbswoods
                They don t mean anything, but I had two dreams since posting about these hewn stones. In the first dream I was walking along Wisconsin Point at Superior,
                Message 8 of 9 , Jan 10, 2010
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                  They don't mean anything, but I had two dreams since posting about these "hewn" stones.

                  In the first dream I was walking along Wisconsin Point at Superior, Wis. and as far as the eye could see out into the lake the bottom was filled with perfectly shaped "hewn" blocks of stone. The water was perfectly transparent and crystal-clear and the complex lakebed was a world unto itself.

                  The 2nd dream was very strange, with native copper and a gift from the "spirit." There were also two Indian women in it, but nothing about hewn stones.

                  Some force is apparently trying to tell me something. Too bad I don't believe in that stuff!

                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Dave Goudsward <dave@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > In January 1677, Father Chrestien le Clercq was traveling to visit
                  > Miramichi near present-day Chatham when he became lost and was was
                  > rescued by a passing Native. To his delight, the Mi'kmaqs of the area
                  > already considered the cruciform a sacred symbol although they had not
                  > been exposed to Catholicism. Giving them the name of Porte-Croix
                  > (Cross-Bearers), le Clercq tried to discover the origins of their
                  > veneration of the cross. Father le Clercq interviewed a 120-year old
                  > member of the tribe who claimed to remember the first arrival of the
                  > French, and that the veneration of the cross came from their ancestors,
                  > long before the missionaries arrived.
                  >
                  > Arcadian historian William Ganong, in the foreword to his 1910
                  > translation of le Clercq, tends to dismiss the matter by suggesting it
                  > was either an artifact from a previous missionary visit or a stylized
                  > bird in flight as a tribal totem.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > herbswoods wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for posting this.
                  > >
                  > > >From this quote I now recall that Carver took the
                  > > Chippewa-St.Croix-Bois Brule river route down to Lake Superior at the
                  > > western end of the lake, and then proceeded up the North Shore. So,
                  > > what he saw and described as "hewn" stones underwater in Lake Superior
                  > > must have been located somewhere between the mouth of the Bois Brule
                  > > River and/or up along the North Shore.
                  > >
                  > > This would also have been one route used by ancient copper miners
                  > > coming from the south on their way to Isle Royale.
                  > >
                  >
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