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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update

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  • Ted Sojka
    Doctor Barrows, you know how to find things. I have seen these in books like 1491 and Zinn s history. Never saw them so you could compare them. Being a
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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      "Doctor" Barrows, you know how to find things.   I have seen these in books like 1491 and Zinn's history.   Never saw them so you could compare them.  Being a print maker, I know that certain things won't translate into a print from a painting or watercolor sketch.  They do seem to create a good view of life in the soon to be colonies.   The native with the mustache and sword do not seem right, but it may be a war club that is translated wrong.   Could he have been a native mix person from some earlier sailor union with natives?   The kind of adventurers in the early times did not want to give away secrets of what was where, and I am sure there were many unrecorded meetings in the years before settlement.

      Thanks for sharing this information.

      This is a great site.
      On Dec 1, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


      Here is some information I could find about it.
       
      In 1585 White, an artist and cartographer, accompanied the voyage from England to the Outer Banks of North Carolina under a plan of Sir Walter Raleigh to settle "Virginia." White was at Roanoke Island for about thirteen months before returning to England for more supplies. During this period he made a series of over seventy watercolor drawings of indigenous people, plants, and animals. The purpose of his drawings was to give those back home an accurate idea of the inhabitants and environment in the New World. Despite their extraordinary significance, the watercolors were not published until the twentieth century. In 1590, Theodor De Bry made engravings from White's drawings to be printed in Thomas Hariot's account of the journey. Hariot, a mathematician, had also been part of the 1585 voyage. In his engravings, De Bry took certain liberties with White's images, and including them together here gives students and teachers everywhere the opportunity to use this material as a pedagogical resource on English views of native people. Additionally, linked to the images are the detailed and learned annotations of Paul Hulton and David Beers Quinn from The American Drawings of John White 1577-1590, courtesy The University of North Carolina Press.

      --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com> wrote:

      From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
      To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 4:03 PM

       
      Vince

      These engravings, like the one in the picture of the spear,  were often done by artists in Europe with only second hand information.  Check out the Rhinoceros wood block print of Albrecht Durer sometime.   

      Some of the early village engravings done by the English of the native cities around Roanoake don't look like they were done by eye witnesses.  
      Ted
      That is a pretty sizable fleet on the bay or horizon.    
      On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


      Hi Judi;
      Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
       
      What
      Regards;
      Vince
       


      --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:

      From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
      Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
      To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
      Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

      Vince,

      Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

      Judi

      --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
      >
      > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
      > http://www.learnnc. org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
      >
      > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
      >
      > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
      > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
      >
      > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
      >








    • Chris Patenaude
      I m so backlogged, i m hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So pardon the obvious dummy question... The URL says Pict. as in Scottish
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 3, 2009
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        I'm so backlogged, i'm hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
        The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
        I'm confused as to why this is being called a Native American?...
        -c

        --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
        To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@...>, ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM



        Hi Judi;
        Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
         
        What
        Regards;
        Vince
         


        --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...> wrote:

        From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...>
        Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
        To: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
        Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

        Vince,

        Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

        Judi

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
        >
        > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
        >
        > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
        > http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/uploads/2007/08/pict_neighbor.jpg
        >
        > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
        >
        > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone". From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
        > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
        >
        > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
        >






      • Vincent Barrows
        Chris, it s a good question. Depicted in John White s volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of Picts , meaning Pictish. They
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 5, 2009
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          Chris,
          it's a good question. Depicted in John White's volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of "Picts", meaning Pictish. They were added, Possibly by le moyne.
          Even though they were Pictish I have noticed a similarity to the object at the spear with the "bannerstone".

          Vince

          --- On Fri, 12/4/09, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

          > From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
          > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 1:59 AM
          >
          >
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          >
          > I'm so backlogged, i'm
          > hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So
          > pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
          > The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
          > I'm confused as to why this is being called a
          > Native American?...
          > -c
          >
          > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows
          > <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio
          > Relics update
          > To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@iengi.
          > com>, ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Judi;
          > Later, Natives were said to have no body or
          > facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590
          > engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish
          > sword also appears in several of the drawings. The
          > strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear
          > at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object
          > at its base.
          >  
          > What
          > Regards;
          > Vince
          >  
          >
          >
          > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin
          > <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
          > Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
          > To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
          > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM
          >
          >
          > Vince,
          >
          > Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?
          >
          > Judi
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_
          > society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince"
          > <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
          > >
          > > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the
          > Atl-Atl.
          > >
          > > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John
          > White that show readings being taken for an O'clock
          > position:
          > > http://www.learnnc
          > org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
          > >
          > > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four
          > natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear
          > was used as a pivot.
          > >
          > > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the
          > drawing in earlier times have been the
          > "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in
          > Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair
          > was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop
          > the lodge poles, as follows:
          > > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below
          > the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large
          > round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross,
          > which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they
          > believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to
          > the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo
          > tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to
          > the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of
          > buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in
          > the breeze."
          > >
          > > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio
          > Bannerstone.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Chris Patenaude
          imho... perhaps the similarities behest Old World contact with Nat. Amn s?  What if the style was brought back to the Scottish side as a graceful, yet
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 9, 2009
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            imho... perhaps the similarities behest Old World contact with Nat. Amn's?  What if the style was brought back to the Scottish side as a graceful, yet pragmatic fashion just as i now cook regularly with chopsticks in my own kitchen, enjoy wearing Mu-mu's to relax, drive a car with an American trademark but Asian parts, and like to read up on Chinese IChing to compare philosophy. When we find something fresh, new and 'neat', we as humans tend to find our own way to use it in our own context. What if the engravings were included to show that there were definite, perhaps even surprising parallels between what was known in Scotland and this new land?
            -c
            --- On Sat, 12/5/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, December 5, 2009, 10:09 PM

            Chris,
            it's a good question. Depicted in John White's volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of "Picts", meaning Pictish. They were added, Possibly by le moyne.
            Even though they were Pictish I have noticed a similarity to the object at the spear with the "bannerstone".

            Vince

            --- On Fri, 12/4/09, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

            > From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
            > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 1:59 AM
              
            >       I'm so backlogged, i'm
            > hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So
            > pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
            > The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
            > I'm confused as to why this is being called a
            > Native American?...
            > -c
            >
            > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows
            > <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio
            > Relics update
            > To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@iengi.
            > com>, ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Judi;
            > Later, Natives were said to have no body or
            > facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590
            > engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish
            > sword also appears in several of the drawings. The
            > strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear
            > at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object
            > at its base.
            >  
            > What
            > Regards;
            > Vince
            >  
            >
            >
            > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin
            > <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
            > Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
            > To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
            > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM
            >
            >
            > Vince,
            >
            > Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?
            >
            > Judi
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_
            > society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince"
            > <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
            > >
            > > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the
            > Atl-Atl.
            > >
            > > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John
            > White that show readings being taken for an O'clock
            > position:
            > > http://www.learnnc.
            > org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
            > >
            > > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four
            > natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear
            > was used as a pivot.
            > >
            > > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the
            > drawing in earlier times have been the
            >  "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in
            > Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair
            > was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop
            > the lodge poles, as follows:
            > > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below
            > the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large
            > round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross,
            > which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they
            > believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to
            > the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo
            > tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to
            > the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of
            > buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in
            > the breeze."
            > >
            > > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio
            > Bannerstone.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >       
            >
            >     
            >     
            >
            >     
            >     
            >
            >

            >
            >
            >
            >   
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


                 


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          • v_barrows
            Here is an article that shows the actual Welch Butterfly bannerstone photographed. Just learned from this article that the slate bannerstone was made of
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 9, 2014
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              Here is an article that shows the actual Welch Butterfly bannerstone photographed. Just learned from this article that the slate bannerstone was made of purplish color slate and is in the ohio historical museum.https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/56002/OHIO_ARCHAEOLOGIST_11_2_APRIL_1961.pdf?sequence=1
            • trayloroo
              GREAT .... enjoyed it .... After the Burrows Cave experience, are we still certain this purple stone is a fake, page 64. CAL
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 10, 2014
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                GREAT .... enjoyed it ....  After the Burrows Cave experience, are we still certain this purple stone is a fake, page 64.

                 

                CAL 

              • v_barrows
                IMO, it s real as the the four winds. Very rare and important too. Dr. Hill of Concinatti and Warren Moorehead also agreed that it is authentic.
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 10, 2014
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                  IMO, it's real as the the four winds. Very rare and important too. Dr. Hill of Concinatti and Warren Moorehead also agreed that it is authentic.
                • v_barrows
                  Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 10, 2014
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                    Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington
                  • wmsmithrock1
                    Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 10, 2014
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                      Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?

                    • Vincent Barrows
                      William I'm not qualified to translate it, since I'm just an engineer. However I saw some similarities to Mayan glyphs which are visibly evident. This
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 10, 2014
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                        William
                        I'm not qualified to translate it, since I'm just an engineer. However I saw some similarities to Mayan glyphs which are visibly evident. This was summarized in the white paper that I sent you after the Wilmington conference 2008.
                        Respectfully
                        Vince


                        From: wmsmithrock1@... <wmsmithrock1@...>;
                        To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] RE: South Carolina shipping maps
                        Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 3:07:30 PM

                         

                        Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?

                      • Chris Patenaude
                        Atlatl hunting as stealth technology ... One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on. -cp On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, v_barrows@yahoo.com
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 13, 2014
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                          Atlatl hunting as "stealth" technology
                          >   http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/atlstealth.htm   <

                          One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on.
                          -cp



                          On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, "v_barrows@..." <v_barrows@...> wrote:


                          Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington




                        • Karla Akins
                          It certainly appears authentic. Can you point me to information regarding the inscription? Is there an interpretation? And are you of the opinion they are
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 13, 2014
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                            It certainly appears authentic. Can you point me to information regarding the inscription? Is there an interpretation? And are you of the opinion they are Welsh--because it seems oriental to me somehow.


                            On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                             

                            Atlatl hunting as "stealth" technology
                            >   http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/atlstealth.htm   <

                            One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on.
                            -cp




                            On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, "v_barrows@..." <v_barrows@...> wrote:


                            Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington





                          • v_barrows
                            Here is a link to some information on the inscription: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound05.htm It s not Welch, just found by someone
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 13, 2014
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                              Here is a link to some information on the inscription: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound05.htmIt's not Welch, just found by someone with that last name. Yes, I concur that it appears to have some similarity to Asian symbolism such as the yin-yang in the center. Still, I think it is Native American origin.
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