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  • Ted Sojka
    If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention. ted sojka 9 Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation There was
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 7, 2009
      If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention.
      ted sojka

       9 
      Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 
      There was apparently an important decision made at this time concerning the facilitation 
      of an enveloping theory—so necessary to create order where chaos loomed. Before 
      discharging a book, one logically creates an outline to guide one's thoughts. This was to 
      become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide the angle of vision for the 
      categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one hand, the belief that others 
      discovered North America before Columbus (such as Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 
      Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian mariners) was explored. On the other 
      hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated from outside influences was put on 
      the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's deference to the native kinship that the latter 
      idea—i.e., screening out any extra-continental visitors—was adopted. Needless to say, 
      this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that has affected decision-making right 
      until the present day. On the positive side it viably linked the living factions of the Native 
      American people with the more ancient mound building folk, and shortly thereafter was 
      responsible for the faintly successful preservation of what remained of the mound 
      builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how aspects of Powell's work, such as 
      analysis of the social order of the mound builders, was not a priority. 
    • Monette Bebow-Reinhard
      Not sure I understand this, Ted. After receiving a response from Ross - will respond later, Ross, I promise - I figured that the main problem we re having
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 7, 2009

        Not sure I understand this, Ted.  After receiving a response from Ross – will respond later, Ross, I promise – I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it is exactly that we’re talking about.

         

        Here’s my belief:

         

        At one time many different groups of people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels, due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 

         

        Those peoples then BECAME what we refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea anymore.  It’s well accepted.

         

        But then after that last glaciers melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel.  So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the courage to try it. 

         

        Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.

         

        As for Powell, the reason he is still given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last melting of the glaciers – and that includes copper tooling.

         

        I welcome discussion of this, to see how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. – which could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago – way before any known civilization had developed anywhere else.

        Monette

         

        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
        Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information

         

         

        If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention.

        ted sojka

         

         9 

        Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 

        There was apparently an important decision made at this time concerning the facilitation 

        of an enveloping theory—so necessary to create order where chaos loomed. Before 

        discharging a book, one logically creates an outline to guide one's thoughts. This was to 

        become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide the angle of vision for the 

        categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one hand, the belief that others 

        discovered North America before Columbus (such as Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 

        Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian mariners) was explored. On the other 

        hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated from outside influences was put on 

        the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's deference to the native kinship that the latter 

        idea—i.e., screening out any extra-continental visitors—was adopted. Needless to say, 

        this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that has affected decision-making right 

        until the present day. On the positive side it viably linked the living factions of the Native 

        American people with the more ancient mound building folk, and shortly thereafter was 

        responsible for the faintly successful preservation of what remained of the mound 

        builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how aspects of Powell's work, such as 

        analysis of the social order of the mound builders, was not a priority. 

      • Chris Patenaude
        Hello, Monette! :-) The bulk of the new , and forward thinkers in the field of Anthropology, i m sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009
          Hello, Monette! :-)
          The bulk of the 'new', and forward thinkers in the field of Anthropology, i'm sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning genetic stock of what would eventually be labeled "Native American" had roots from most every continental district of the globe. Just when exactly those mixtures arrived is what is commonly debated even amongst the die-hard "diffusionists".
           
          It is my own belief that it did not take much 'technology' at all to cross the entire oceans without island hopping, then as now. People make it in single dingies, even a bathtub in today's sensationalistic headlines. Quite 'post-iceages' is when the Bronze Ages developed with a specific need to voyage and find tin. If you give a buncha humans an economically or politically inspired "need", you watch. They will achieve that goal, come heck or storm, in 15 yrs or less. Lookit what happened the instant Kennedy said we were going to beat the Russians to the moon or die trying. (some did) As short before that as 1949 it was predicted by 'specialists' that it would take 200 years to reach the moon. 10 yrs later, that estimate was downscaled to the yr 2000. Eight yrs later we were bringing back moonrocks.
           
          Never underestimate human endevor. Have you been to the Smithsonian and seen the duplicate LEM they have in the Aerospace section? It's about as sturdy-looking as a puffed out Jiffypop pan made of aluminum foil and steel wire, i swear! But they made it. Moral of story, humans will figure out exactly what they can just squeak by with as support base and muscle their way thru on a wing and a prayer to surprising ends. The minute people figured out a hollow log, twisted reed bundles or a bunch of bamboo tied together floated, we were off to see the world.
           
          Bronze Age technology was affording the Indic-Sumer, Persian and Arabic people direct shot sailing from India across the Indian ocean to Madagascar and the east coast of Africa. If they were doing that jaunt, what would, in any sense, keep them from practically gliding free-fall across the Atlantic riding the currents into Brazil and the Caribbean. Nothing i can think of.  
           
          We have Bolivia and the altiplano rife with tin AND copper in the same locale. Do you know how rare that is on Earth, finding both ores in the same handy location? There's the incentive. I'm sure there were backers for the fleets. We have the copper rich locations of the Great Lakes regions in North America. Incentive again, and Celts who knew how to guide the Iberian Punics to go get it.
           
          So we have incentive, do we have proof that the contact happened post "ice age" but far ahead of "renaissance" shipbuilding?  The Chinese were far ahead of the Semitic/Indic crowd by several hundred years in efficient ship-building and oceanic traffic. They had court records of reaching lands beyond the horizon which were never logged in writing for navigational return. Compass points and distance were kept in living memory by the holders of power.  The political situations in pre-, and during, medieval China were usually unstable. Most records once kept by one dynasty were often destroyed out of jealousy and family-centric pride by the next. (Let alone the heads that held the valuable data.)
           
          So what proof do we have here in the Americas that there was anything but isolationist development by the Natives for the last 5,000 yrs? Epigraphy. Lots and lots and lots of symbolic representation not only in written format, but also in "native" vocabulary, syntax, stories and oral history among the tribes themselves. Ceramic and metal items, containers, cook pots and statuary from 2000 BCE up to 1300 CE created on this continent have direct comparison and reflection on styles and design from Old World example.
           
          Clearly written Proto-Semitic, old and modern Arabic, ancient Celtic Ogham and even Sumerian cuniform have examples to show here from the Americas. OK, if the Old World wasn't coming over, then the Native Americans were going over THERE and coming back with new literacy in bi-lingual skills. Personally, i can see both happening. But there is no ignoring the solid-as-rock Epigraphy and the cultural signs woven into the traditions here in the Americas unless one wishes to toss all scientific objective observation out the window in favor of ostrich-in-sand or Schultzie- 'I see NUUTHINK' attitude.
           
          So yes. If one wishes to be as coldly analytical as one pleases, there is plenty of evidence that the globe never lost track of itself as a living, breathing trade-net until the moment of the Black Plague in Europe. The nav-logs were in the captain's heads. They were likely some of the first victims to the ship-rats' plague-laden fleas. Two generations later, and the Sundowner country dissappeared into amnesia for lack of oral transmission. But the world, up TO that point, was certainly in touch with all it's parts. And the proof is all over the place if you choose to recognize the possibility.
          mho
          -chris

          --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...> wrote:

          From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...>
          Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:54 AM



          Not sure I understand this, Ted.  After receiving a response from Ross – will respond later, Ross, I promise – I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it is exactly that we’re talking about.

           

          Here’s my belief:

           

          At one time many different groups of people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels, due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 

           

          Those peoples then BECAME what we refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea anymore.  It’s well accepted.

           

          But then after that last glaciers melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel.  So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the courage to try it. 

           

          Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.

           

          As for Powell, the reason he is still given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last melting of the glaciers – and that includes copper tooling.

           

          I welcome discussion of this, to see how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. – which could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago – way before any known civilization had developed anywhere else.

          Monette

           

          From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
          Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information

           

           

          If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention.

          ted sojka

           

           9 

          Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 

          There was apparently an important decision made at this time concerning the facilitation 

          of an enveloping theory—so necessary to create order where chaos loomed. Before 

          discharging a book, one logically creates an outline to guide one's thoughts. This was to 

          become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide the angle of vision for the 

          categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one hand, the belief that others 

          discovered North America before Columbus (such as Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 

          Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian mariners) was explored. On the other 

          hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated from outside influences was put on 

          the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's deference to the native kinship that the latter 

          idea—i.e., screening out any extra-continental visitors—was adopted. Needless to say, 

          this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that has affected decision-making right 

          until the present day. On the positive side it viably linked the living factions of the Native 

          American people with the more ancient mound building folk, and shortly thereafter was 

          responsible for the faintly successful preservation of what remained of the mound 

          builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how aspects of Powell's work, such as 

          analysis of the social order of the mound builders, was not a priority. 




        • Chris Patenaude
          OK fiends and cohorts, I ve lost a massive file folder deep in the guts of my machine for lack of memory of a name. There was this anthropologist-archaeologist
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009
            OK fiends and cohorts,
            I've lost a massive file folder deep in the guts of my machine for lack of memory of a name.
            There was this anthropologist-archaeologist who went all over the American SW back in the 1920's and 1930's. Made quite a name for himself in the end for all the drawings and photos he was taking of "Native American" petroglyphs and pictographs across N.Mex and AZ especially. Water monsters, Shamens, Sunsigns, Swastikas, landmaps, fantastic glyphs and generic symbology alike.
             
            What was the guy's name? If i can find my folder, it has about all there was on the web about him... if i could only remember his blinkin' NAME! lol
             
            Thanks!
            -chris

          • Ted Sojka
            Are you talking about Edward S. Curtis? He was the photographer of many native groups in the US.
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009
              Are you talking about Edward S. Curtis?  He was the photographer of many native groups in the US.
              On Aug 10, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Chris Patenaude wrote:


              OK fiends and cohorts,
              I've lost a massive file folder deep in the guts of my machine for lack of memory of a name.
              There was this anthropologist- archaeologist who went all over the American SW back in the 1920's and 1930's. Made quite a name for himself in the end for all the drawings and photos he was taking of "Native American" petroglyphs and pictographs across N.Mex and AZ especially. Water monsters, Shamens, Sunsigns, Swastikas, landmaps, fantastic glyphs and generic symbology alike.
               
              What was the guy's name? If i can find my folder, it has about all there was on the web about him... if i could only remember his blinkin' NAME! lol
               
              Thanks!
              -chris



            • Chris Patenaude
              Nope! Curtiss took pictures of the Indians. I m looking for a well known reporter to University Studies of sorts of found petroglyphs as well as archaeology.
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009
                Nope!
                Curtiss took pictures of the Indians. I'm looking for a well known reporter to University Studies of sorts of found petroglyphs as well as archaeology.
                -c

                --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Edward S. Curtiss..
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 7:27 PM



                Are you talking about Edward S. Curtis?  He was the photographer of many native groups in the US.
                On Aug 10, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Chris Patenaude wrote:


                OK fiends and cohorts,
                I've lost a massive file folder deep in the guts of my machine for lack of memory of a name.
                There was this anthropologist- archaeologist who went all over the American SW back in the 1920's and 1930's. Made quite a name for himself in the end for all the drawings and photos he was taking of "Native American" petroglyphs and pictographs across N.Mex and AZ especially. Water monsters, Shamens, Sunsigns, Swastikas, landmaps, fantastic glyphs and generic symbology alike.
                 
                What was the guy's name? If i can find my folder, it has about all there was on the web about him... if i could only remember his blinkin' NAME! lol
                 
                Thanks!
                -chris






              • Monette Bebow-Reinhard
                I have problems with this – you knew I would, right? You have iconic rock art or pieces that appear to be related to other civilizations – in most cases
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009

                  I have problems with this – you knew I would, right?

                   

                  You have iconic rock art or pieces that appear to be related to other civilizations – in most cases undateable, untraceable, unreliable.  What you DON’T have is any corroborating evidence that anyone over in Europe or elsewhere knew or left records that they knew of these voyages to the New World for these resources you said they came here deliberately to get long before Columbus.  Why not?  Why, if those in Egypt, for instance, made regular voyages for supplies here is there nothing found over there about it?  Why would they hide any proof they might have that they’re people had been here so long ago? 

                   

                  I do not think anyone, once the waters got so high, would brave the voyage for a few supplies.  Instead, it is much more likely that an occasional boat got swept off its typical Mediterranean route, or African route, or what you have, got swept off their route and, clinging to life, made it to land, only to perish or get absorbed into the current population.

                   

                  Today’s waters, as you refer to people making it in dinghies, is much lower than it was even in Columbus’s Day.  So comparing us to them is a futile exercise.  We don’t even know what kind of water currents they were dealing with back then.  And comparing our race to the moon to people with simple boats staring across a vast open water with no land in sight?  We at least can see the moon.

                   

                  Yes, humans will figure out things when they have to.  It just took awhile before they had to.  Africa, Asia, Russia, Europe, all connected, all pretty wide open, large land masses, until, well, until probably the Industrial Age when population growth boomed.  There simply wasn’t an impetus for crossing an ocean in the time period you’re talking about.

                   

                  And you cannot date your artifacts.  Someone scrawling on rock – I wish they could.  I love petroglyphs, I think they’re fascinating.  I’ve love them to be able to figure out how old they are.  Maybe someday…

                   

                  You have an awful lot of guesswork here – a pretty picture, but all guesswork.  Not one of these so-called civilizations will back up these claims of yours that they were sailing here for copper or anything else in the periods you claim.  Why not?   You have to answer this.  Why not?

                   

                  I don’t believe the linguistics connection, either.  Many of the root words could have developed before the first migration, and were retained, is all.  Or coincidental.  Or taken from that occasional sailor washed ashore. 

                   

                  Nothing given here adds up to anything more than wishful thinking.  What’s the proof?  One single shred of irrefutable evidence?

                   

                  Personally, I must apologize but I cannot continue this debate in any form.  I wish you all healthy ventures but I originally joined the AAPF hoping to gain support for the Archaic Copper Museum in Oconto.  I now realize that will never happen.  The Menominees and other tribal Indians tool the copper we’ve been finding, them and no one else.   

                  Monette

                   

                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Patenaude
                  Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:01 PM
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information

                   

                   

                  Hello, Monette! :-)

                  The bulk of the 'new', and forward thinkers in the field of Anthropology, i'm sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning genetic stock of what would eventually be labeled "Native American" had roots from most every continental district of the globe. Just when exactly those mixtures arrived is what is commonly debated even amongst the die-hard "diffusionists".

                   

                  It is my own belief that it did not take much 'technology' at all to cross the entire oceans without island hopping, then as now. People make it in single dingies, even a bathtub in today's sensationalistic headlines. Quite 'post-iceages' is when the Bronze Ages developed with a specific need to voyage and find tin. If you give a buncha humans an economically or politically inspired "need", you watch. They will achieve that goal, come heck or storm, in 15 yrs or less. Lookit what happened the instant Kennedy said we were going to beat the Russians to the moon or die trying. (some did) As short before that as 1949 it was predicted by 'specialists' that it would take 200 years to reach the moon. 10 yrs later, that estimate was downscaled to the yr 2000. Eight yrs later we were bringing back moonrocks.

                   

                  Never underestimate human endevor. Have you been to the Smithsonian and seen the duplicate LEM they have in the Aerospace section? It's about as sturdy-looking as a puffed out Jiffypop pan made of aluminum foil and steel wire, i swear! But they made it. Moral of story, humans will figure out exactly what they can just squeak by with as support base and muscle their way thru on a wing and a prayer to surprising ends. The minute people figured out a hollow log, twisted reed bundles or a bunch of bamboo tied together floated, we were off to see the world.

                   

                  Bronze Age technology was affording the Indic-Sumer, Persian and Arabic people direct shot sailing from India across the Indian ocean to Madagascar and the east coast of Africa. If they were doing that jaunt, what would, in any sense, keep them from practically gliding free-fall across the Atlantic riding the currents into Brazil and the Caribbean. Nothing i can think of.  

                   

                  We have Bolivia and the altiplano rife with tin AND copper in the same locale. Do you know how rare that is on Earth, finding both ores in the same handy location? There's the incentive. I'm sure there were backers for the fleets. We have the copper rich locations of the Great Lakes regions in North America. Incentive again, and Celts who knew how to guide the Iberian Punics to go get it.

                   

                  So we have incentive, do we have proof that the contact happened post "ice age" but far ahead of "renaissance" shipbuilding?  The Chinese were far ahead of the Semitic/Indic crowd by several hundred years in efficient ship-building and oceanic traffic. They had court records of reaching lands beyond the horizon which were never logged in writing for navigational return. Compass points and distance were kept in living memory by the holders of power.  The political situations in pre-, and during, medieval China were usually unstable. Most records once kept by one dynasty were often destroyed out of jealousy and family-centric pride by the next. (Let alone the heads that held the valuable data.)

                   

                  So what proof do we have here in the Americas that there was anything but isolationist development by the Natives for the last 5,000 yrs? Epigraphy. Lots and lots and lots of symbolic representation not only in written format, but also in "native" vocabulary, syntax, stories and oral history among the tribes themselves. Ceramic and metal items, containers, cook pots and statuary from 2000 BCE up to 1300 CE created on this continent have direct comparison and reflection on styles and design from Old World example.

                   

                  Clearly written Proto-Semitic, old and modern Arabic, ancient Celtic Ogham and even Sumerian cuniform have examples to show here from the Americas. OK, if the Old World wasn't coming over, then the Native Americans were going over THERE and coming back with new literacy in bi-lingual skills. Personally, i can see both happening. But there is no ignoring the solid-as-rock Epigraphy and the cultural signs woven into the traditions here in the Americas unless one wishes to toss all scientific objective observation out the window in favor of ostrich-in-sand or Schultzie- 'I see NUUTHINK' attitude.

                   

                  So yes. If one wishes to be as coldly analytical as one pleases, there is plenty of evidence that the globe never lost track of itself as a living, breathing trade-net until the moment of the Black Plague in Europe. The nav-logs were in the captain's heads. They were likely some of the first victims to the ship-rats' plague-laden fleas. Two generations later, and the Sundowner country dissappeared into amnesia for lack of oral transmission. But the world, up TO that point, was certainly in touch with all it's parts. And the proof is all over the place if you choose to recognize the possibility.

                  mho

                  -chris


                  --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...> wrote:


                  From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...>
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:54 AM

                   

                  Not sure I understand this, Ted.  After receiving a response from Ross – will respond later, Ross, I promise – I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it is exactly that we’re talking about.

                   

                  Here’s my belief:

                   

                  At one time many different groups of people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels, due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 

                   

                  Those peoples then BECAME what we refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea anymore.  It’s well accepted.

                   

                  But then after that last glaciers melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel.  So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the courage to try it. 

                   

                  Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.

                   

                  As for Powell, the reason he is still given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last melting of the glaciers – and that includes copper tooling.

                   

                  I welcome discussion of this, to see how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. – which could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago – way before any known civilization had developed anywhere else.

                  Monette

                   

                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
                  Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information

                   

                   

                  If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention.

                  ted sojka

                   

                   9 

                  Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 

                  There was apparently an important decision made at this time concerning the facilitation 

                  of an enveloping theory—so necessary to create order where chaos loomed. Before 

                  discharging a book, one logically creates an outline to guide one's thoughts. This was to 

                  become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide the angle of vision for the 

                  categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one hand, the belief that others 

                  discovered North America before Columbus (such as Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 

                  Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian mariners) was explored. On the other 

                  hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated from outside influences was put on 

                  the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's deference to the native kinship that the latter 

                  idea—i.e., screening out any extra-continental visitors—was adopted. Needless to say, 

                  this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that has affected decision-making right 

                  until the present day. On the positive side it viably linked the living factions of the Native 

                  American people with the more ancient mound building folk, and shortly thereafter was 

                  responsible for the faintly successful preservation of what remained of the mound 

                  builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how aspects of Powell's work, such as 

                  analysis of the social order of the mound builders, was not a priority. 

                   

                • Vincent Barrows
                  Monette, all; Hopefully you will reconsider and stay with our group. One interesting example in common throughout the world is the Microlithic blade. This
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 10, 2009
                    Monette, all;

                    Hopefully you will reconsider and stay with our group.

                    One interesting example in common throughout the world is the Microlithic blade. This seemingly simple tool has been found in the earliest levels of civilization.

                    Microblades at Cahokia were found with copper workshop evidence.
                    http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Erb%20and%20Mathews%20collections/Microblade%20Core/

                    Further Documentation of "Old-world and New-world" Microblade Chronology:
                    The gap between this upper palaeolithic and the neolithic-chalcolithic cultures has
                    now been bridged in some regions such as Uttar Pradesh, Karnatak and SE. Rajasthan
                    by microlithic cultures, for which we have dates ranging from 8000 B.C. to 2000 B.C. There
                    is no doubt that in some parts of India microlithic cultures continued to flourish side by
                    side with other advanced cultures (Misra 1971).
                    (Prehistoric colonization of India)

                    The Ahar culture, as revealed by the excavations at Ahar, has been found to be a purely
                    copper-using culture (I.A.R. 1961-2: 50). At Gilund (Rajasthan), however, a few microliths
                    were found associated with this culture (I.A.R. 1959-60: 41).
                    Ahar Culture (1700-1500 BC)
                    (New Light on the Prehistoric Cultures of Central India)

                    At most of the excavated sites of the Upper Gangetic Valley the Ochre Coloured
                    Pottery is succeeded by the Painted Grey Ware but at two of them, Atranjikhera 6,
                    and Noh '), an ill-defined Black-and-Red Ware horizon is interposed between
                    these two levels. Nothing is known about the cultural identity of this Black-and-Red
                    Ware except that it XI-as associated at Atranjikhera with "microlithic cores and copper."
                    A clear appraisal must await fuller investigation
                    (Prehistoric Ganges)

                    While a wide variety of microlithic implements along with a more or less extensive use of Copper
                    form the basic technological ingredient, the primary crop cultivated was rice.
                    There was a wide assortment of plain and painted wheelmade wares among which a
                    Black-and-Red Ware formed the dominant element. This Black-and-Red Ware
                    has been discovered as far as Rajghat l) and Sohgaura 2, in East U.P. The C-14 dates
                    suggest a beginning around I roo B.C. 3). The origin is obscure but there is little
                    evidence for a migration of the chalcolithic elements from South-east Rajasthan,
                    Central India or Deccan. This chalcolithic level gradually merged into an iron-using
                    stage around 700 B.C. 4). This aspect of the gradual merger between the chalcolithic
                    and iron-using stages is clear from the sequences of Chirand and Mahisdal where
                    chalcolithic elements including pottery and microlithic tools continue significantly
                    in the iron-using level. Early historic period began, as in the Upper Gangetic Valley,
                    in the sixth century B.C.
                    (Prehistoric Ganges)

                    The technological traditions of the Franco-Iberian
                    Solutrean were firmly rooted in those of the
                    Gravettian (middle Upper Paleolithic) of western
                    Europe. Depending on the local availability and quality
                    of lithic raw materials, as well as on site function,
                    blanks used for making stone implements were
                    flakes, blades, and bladelets ("micro-blades" in
                    American terminology), although the Solutrean leaf,
                    shouldered, and stemmed points were usually made
                    on blades often produced from diverse specific forms
                    of prismatic cores. The hallmark of Solutrean lithic
                    technology is indeed its projectile component, consisting
                    of both a variety of single-element tips (of
                    widely varying sizes and weights, including many
                    "laurel leaves" that may actually have been used as
                    knives) and (especially in later Solutrean contexts)
                    backed bladelets that were used multiply as barbs
                    and/ or tips of projectiles, whose other elements were
                    basally beveled antler points.
                    (soulterian)

                    Microblades, tanged and
                    shouldered points-all common in various Solutrean
                    assemblages-are absent in the far more limited technological
                    repertoire of Clovis. While there are superficial
                    similarities (e.g., some concave base foliate
                    projectile points, some organic points or foreshafts
                    with anti-skid engraved lines on basal bevels), these
                    are most parsimoniously explainable as independent
                    developments-similar solutions to similar functional
                    problems, given limited available lithic and
                    osseous materials and manufacturing techniques.
                    The fact that red ochre was used by people in both
                    techno-complexes-as cited by Stanford-is meaningless,
                    as such pigment use is virtually a cultural
                    universal among Homo sapiens foragers worldwide.
                    (Soulterian)

                    The creativity of the Solutrean extended
                    beyond the "arms race" that is attested by the plethora
                    of lithic and antler point sizes and types (and even
                    224 AMERICAN ANTIQUITY [Vol. 65, No. 2, 20001
                    backed micro-blade elements) and by the invention
                    of the spearthrower.
                    (souterian)

                    Yet such pieces in the Solutrean are
                    found only at a handful of sites in a small area of
                    northern Spain-not in France or in the rest of Iberia.
                    Nor are the Solutrean points fluted, a feature which
                    is absolutely diagnostic of Clovis points. Shouldered
                    and stemmed points, as well as micro-blades, all so
                    common in the Solutrean, are completely absent
                    from the Clovis lithic repertory. And beveled antler
                    points (or foreshafts), common in the Solutrean, are
                    very rare in Clovis.
                    (soulerian)

                    The microliths
                    are consistently found in association with pottery and bifacially
                    worked projectile points of the Neolithic and
                    Chalcolithic of the third and second millennia B.C.
                    (USSR)

                    The above observations as well as data from
                    I. V. Sinitsyn's excavations on the Volga (Berezhnov
                    I1 cemetery), from those on the left bank
                    of the Dniepr (Bader 1950), and in Crimea
                    (Krainov 1957), indicate a persistence of microlithic
                    technology as late as the age of metal,
                    allowing us to place microlithic sites in Asia as
                    being Chalcolithic. Pottery found with microliths
                    in Dzhanbas-Kala, Dzhebel Cave, and a
                    series of eroded sites enables us to date microlithic
                    sites in Kazakhstan and Central Asia in
                    the main to the third and early second millennia
                    B.C. This same chronological placement is
                    indicated by the type of bifacially retouched
                    projectile points-the triangular point with an
                    indentation in the base. Points of this type are
                    common in the third and second millennia B.C.
                    and possibly were manufactured as early as the
                    end of the fourth millennium.
                    (USSR)

                    Triangular Points of this type were found at Cahokia Mounds in abundance.

                    The excavations of I. V.
                    Sinitsyn in the Berezhnov I1 cemetery definitely
                    linked the microlithic cultures of the lower
                    Volga with the Yamno cultures of the third
                    millennium B.C. Here in Kurgan (burial
                    mound) 9, with Burials 3, 5, 9, and 17 were
                    found two microblades, three end-scrapers
                    made on blades, three rounded microscrapers,
                    a composite tool, and two other artifacts quite
                    usual in lower Volg-a sites. Thus, in the third
                    millennium B.C. geometric tools were still being
                    produced in the lower reaches of the Volga.
                    (USSR)

                    The Introduction
                    of microblades is now seen as a regional tradition
                    lasting from at least 1200 B.C. until around A.D. 400.
                    (Microblades)

                    Microblades and cores were next reported
                    from the top horizon of DjRi3 in the Fraser Canyon,
                    but the relation of these objects to the
                    radiocarbon date given for the horizon, 410 B.C.
                    60 (S-112), is not made clear (Borden 1961:
                    1). (Microblades)

                    As Table 1 indicates, date estimates for assemblages,
                    including microblades or cores, range
                    from 1210 B.C. 2 130 (GSC437) as the earliest
                    to A.D. 370 f 140 (S-19) as the most recent.
                    (Microblades)

                    New World are in the
                    far north and Mesoamerica. The Northwest
                    Microblade tradition is estimated by MacNeish
                    (Willey 1966: 415) to have begun about 6000
                    B.C. The Arctic Small Tool tradition, starting at
                    4000-3000 B.c., spread from Alaska to Greenland
                    and lasted until about 500 B.C. In Mesoamerica,
                    the Tehuacin Valley sequence showed
                    obsidian blades struck from prepared polyhedral
                    cores in the Abejas phase, dated by MacNeish
                    (1962) at 3400-2300 B.C. Willey (1966: 83)
                    states "this common little instrument was to
                    become one of the most persistent of the Mesoamerican
                    technological traditions." In view of
                    the probable advenr of other Mesoamerican
                    traits into the Mississippi Valley in Poverty
                    Point times, a Mesoamerican origin for the
                    microflint industry seemq appropriate. One can
                    only conjecture why this tool maintained its
                    popularity only through Poverty Point and
                    Hopewell times.
                    (poverty Point)

                    --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...> wrote:

                    From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@...>
                    Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 10:08 PM

                     

                    I have problems with this – you knew I would, right?

                     

                    You have iconic rock art or pieces that appear to be related to other civilizations – in most cases undateable, untraceable, unreliable.  What you DON’T have is any corroborating evidence that anyone over in Europe or elsewhere knew or left records that they knew of these voyages to the New World for these resources you said they came here deliberately to get long before Columbus.  Why not?  Why, if those in Egypt, for instance, made regular voyages for supplies here is there nothing found over there about it?  Why would they hide any proof they might have that they’re people had been here so long ago? 

                     

                    I do not think anyone, once the waters got so high, would brave the voyage for a few supplies.  Instead, it is much more likely that an occasional boat got swept off its typical Mediterranean route, or African route, or what you have, got swept off their route and, clinging to life, made it to land, only to perish or get absorbed into the current population.

                     

                    Today’s waters, as you refer to people making it in dinghies, is much lower than it was even in Columbus’s Day.  So comparing us to them is a futile exercise.  We don’t even know what kind of water currents they were dealing with back then.  And comparing our race to the moon to people with simple boats staring across a vast open water with no land in sight?  We at least can see the moon.

                     

                    Yes, humans will figure out things when they have to.  It just took awhile before they had to.  Africa, Asia, Russia, Europe, all connected, all pretty wide open, large land masses, until, well, until probably the Industrial Age when population growth boomed.  There simply wasn’t an impetus for crossing an ocean in the time period you’re talking about.

                     

                    And you cannot date your artifacts.  Someone scrawling on rock – I wish they could.  I love petroglyphs, I think they’re fascinating.  I’ve love them to be able to figure out how old they are.  Maybe someday…

                     

                    You have an awful lot of guesswork here – a pretty picture, but all guesswork.  Not one of these so-called civilizations will back up these claims of yours that they were sailing here for copper or anything else in the periods you claim.  Why not?   You have to answer this.  Why not?

                     

                    I don’t believe the linguistics connection, either.  Many of the root words could have developed before the first migration, and were retained, is all.  Or coincidental.  Or taken from that occasional sailor washed ashore. 

                     

                    Nothing given here adds up to anything more than wishful thinking.  What’s the proof?  One single shred of irrefutable evidence?

                     

                    Personally, I must apologize but I cannot continue this debate in any form.  I wish you all healthy ventures but I originally joined the AAPF hoping to gain support for the Archaic Copper Museum in Oconto.  I now realize that will never happen.  The Menominees and other tribal Indians tool the copper we’ve been finding, them and no one else.   

                    Monette

                     

                    From: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Patenaude
                    Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:01 PM
                    To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information

                     

                     

                    Hello, Monette! :-)

                    The bulk of the 'new', and forward thinkers in the field of Anthropology, i'm sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning genetic stock of what would eventually be labeled "Native American" had roots from most every continental district of the globe. Just when exactly those mixtures arrived is what is commonly debated even amongst the die-hard "diffusionists".

                     

                    It is my own belief that it did not take much 'technology' at all to cross the entire oceans without island hopping, then as now. People make it in single dingies, even a bathtub in today's sensationalistic headlines. Quite 'post-iceages' is when the Bronze Ages developed with a specific need to voyage and find tin. If you give a buncha humans an economically or politically inspired "need", you watch. They will achieve that goal, come heck or storm, in 15 yrs or less. Lookit what happened the instant Kennedy said we were going to beat the Russians to the moon or die trying. (some did) As short before that as 1949 it was predicted by 'specialists' that it would take 200 years to reach the moon. 10 yrs later, that estimate was downscaled to the yr 2000. Eight yrs later we were bringing back moonrocks.

                     

                    Never underestimate human endevor. Have you been to the Smithsonian and seen the duplicate LEM they have in the Aerospace section? It's about as sturdy-looking as a puffed out Jiffypop pan made of aluminum foil and steel wire, i swear! But they made it. Moral of story, humans will figure out exactly what they can just squeak by with as support base and muscle their way thru on a wing and a prayer to surprising ends. The minute people figured out a hollow log, twisted reed bundles or a bunch of bamboo tied together floated, we were off to see the world.

                     

                    Bronze Age technology was affording the Indic-Sumer, Persian and Arabic people direct shot sailing from India across the Indian ocean to Madagascar and the east coast of Africa. If they were doing that jaunt, what would, in any sense, keep them from practically gliding free-fall across the Atlantic riding the currents into Brazil and the Caribbean. Nothing i can think of.  

                     

                    We have Bolivia and the altiplano rife with tin AND copper in the same locale. Do you know how rare that is on Earth, finding both ores in the same handy location? There's the incentive. I'm sure there were backers for the fleets. We have the copper rich locations of the Great Lakes regions in North America. Incentive again, and Celts who knew how to guide the Iberian Punics to go get it.

                     

                    So we have incentive, do we have proof that the contact happened post "ice age" but far ahead of "renaissance" shipbuilding?  The Chinese were far ahead of the Semitic/Indic crowd by several hundred years in efficient ship-building and oceanic traffic. They had court records of reaching lands beyond the horizon which were never logged in writing for navigational return. Compass points and distance were kept in living memory by the holders of power.  The political situations in pre-, and during, medieval China were usually unstable. Most records once kept by one dynasty were often destroyed out of jealousy and family-centric pride by the next. (Let alone the heads that held the valuable data.)

                     

                    So what proof do we have here in the Americas that there was anything but isolationist development by the Natives for the last 5,000 yrs? Epigraphy. Lots and lots and lots of symbolic representation not only in written format, but also in "native" vocabulary, syntax, stories and oral history among the tribes themselves. Ceramic and metal items, containers, cook pots and statuary from 2000 BCE up to 1300 CE created on this continent have direct comparison and reflection on styles and design from Old World example.

                     

                    Clearly written Proto-Semitic, old and modern Arabic, ancient Celtic Ogham and even Sumerian cuniform have examples to show here from the Americas. OK, if the Old World wasn't coming over, then the Native Americans were going over THERE and coming back with new literacy in bi-lingual skills. Personally, i can see both happening. But there is no ignoring the solid-as-rock Epigraphy and the cultural signs woven into the traditions here in the Americas unless one wishes to toss all scientific objective observation out the window in favor of ostrich-in-sand or Schultzie- 'I see NUUTHINK' attitude.

                     

                    So yes. If one wishes to be as coldly analytical as one pleases, there is plenty of evidence that the globe never lost track of itself as a living, breathing trade-net until the moment of the Black Plague in Europe. The nav-logs were in the captain's heads. They were likely some of the first victims to the ship-rats' plague-laden fleas. Two generations later, and the Sundowner country dissappeared into amnesia for lack of oral transmission. But the world, up TO that point, was certainly in touch with all it's parts. And the proof is all over the place if you choose to recognize the possibility.

                    mho

                    -chris


                    --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@bayland. net> wrote:


                    From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard <grimm1@bayland. net>
                    Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                    To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                    Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:54 AM

                     

                    Not sure I understand this, Ted.  After receiving a response from Ross – will respond later, Ross, I promise – I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it is exactly that we’re talking about.

                     

                    Here’s my belief:

                     

                    At one time many different groups of people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels, due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 

                     

                    Those peoples then BECAME what we refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea anymore.  It’s well accepted.

                     

                    But then after that last glaciers melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel.  So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the courage to try it. 

                     

                    Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.

                     

                    As for Powell, the reason he is still given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last melting of the glaciers – and that includes copper tooling.

                     

                    I welcome discussion of this, to see how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. – which could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago – way before any known civilization had developed anywhere else.

                    Monette

                     

                    From: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
                    Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
                    To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information

                     

                     

                    If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to AWS members, this might get your attention.

                    ted sojka

                     

                     9 

                    Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 

                    There was apparently an important decision made at this time concerning the facilitation 

                    of an enveloping theory—so necessary to create order where chaos loomed. Before 

                    discharging a book, one logically creates an outline to guide one's thoughts. This was to 

                    become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide the angle of vision for the 

                    categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one hand, the belief that others 

                    discovered North America before Columbus (such as Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 

                    Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian mariners) was explored. On the other 

                    hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated from outside influences was put on 

                    the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's deference to the native kinship that the latter 

                    idea—i.e., screening out any extra-continental visitors—was adopted. Needless to say, 

                    this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that has affected decision-making right 

                    until the present day. On the positive side it viably linked the living factions of the Native 

                    American people with the more ancient mound building folk, and shortly thereafter was 

                    responsible for the faintly successful preservation of what remained of the mound 

                    builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how aspects of Powell's work, such as 

                    analysis of the social order of the mound builders, was not a priority. 

                     


                  • Susan
                    All, Back from travels, I appreciated the honesty in Monette s last posts yet am very sorry that she found it necessary to leave the group, am appreciative
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 11, 2009
                      All,
                       
                      Back from travels, I appreciated the honesty in Monette's last posts yet am very sorry that she found it necessary to leave the group, am appreciative of the contributions she made, and will miss those she would have brought forth had she stayed on or others had responsed to her efforts to tell us more about the Old Copper Culture museum and aboriginal peoples who dwelled there at least since 7500 BC.
                       
                      I know you are working sixty hour weeks in your engineering job, Vince, and appreciate the time and well-presented letter you presented. As I do all of you here expressing and continuing to clarify the best of what you believe in the ways you keeping learning to intercommunicate to and with others of diverse persuasions. 
                       
                      Ms. Bebow-Reinhardt's and others' leaving our group saddens me; it is always delightful to have among this group ones neither solidly US 'diffusionist' nor decidedly 'isolationist'.  Especially true with Monette, one who diplomatically listens to a variety of viewpoints, yet carefully selects ways of dialoging.  Yet puts herself on what I like to refer to as "Indian time",  no matter how many pressing responsibilities come along....to pull off along these waters and joined us here to sit in counsil with those here of diverse ideas, opinions, and scientifically-intended beliefs.  Especially courageous when dialoguing with predominantly dye-in-the wool US diffusionists arguing for proof of such using predominantly physical evidence and data spanning from wide span of historic and ancient periods.  
                       
                      Being preferentially a "group person" yet novice researcher,  I struggle awkwardly in my role as interconnector and intercommmunicator here, as you can see often.  I apologize for using too many words to say so little and my inabilities to understand much of what you are intercommunicating in posts here.  And to smooth troubled waters toward higher and deeper multi-cultural understandings here.
                       
                      Long ago I signed my name under the banner "Ancient Waterways Society" to emphasize global waterways,  rather than a narrow, culturally-biased and strictly Ancient American-oriented 'world'view.  Then later helped spark the origins of this group with Pam Giese within an initial web site. then years later when MinnesotaStan offered to design and set up this web site with its founding suggestions.
                       
                      Upon occasion I also sign my name under a made- up "Diffusionists Without Borders" title to make a strong point, yet need to emphasize I am strictly diffusionist within certain areas of investigation.  Never where the term puts me into dualistic or absolute odds arrogantly against others or arguing a ludicrously jingoistic "Who was in the Americas First" case.
                       
                      I shall continue my previous intentions here of joining and assisting with physical labor of some sort at the Octonto Cold Copper Culture Museum near an old Lake Michigan shoreline (two hours east of my homoe), soon as fair weather flea market vending,  meetings and conferences ends, and before the blizzardly winds engage.  I had camped alone, walked the grounds of the Oconto site more than once many years ago when the museum was closed down,  no curator existed, and public interest in the site dormant.  Monette's attempts at intercommunicating with us here, when she and AAPS came together during a weekend-long open house in Oconto, and her talk at the AAPS Keweenaw Conference in July, showed me the courage, dedication, diplomacy and perserverence I like in a friend.  I will personally enjoy learning more about her work, the museum, and legacies of the people present and ancient past she is helping to resurrect and preserve.  But will miss her here and what she would have continued to share with my friends here at Ancient Waterways Society.  
                       
                      I do appreciate the efforts of each of you here at this web site to express the best of yourselves and your work, fondest for me when done inclusively of others, with humility and non-competitiveness.  Especially when each of you helps enhance the ideas and works of others.  I do believe members' ideas and scientific investigations could very well help this world shine brighter if we can 'unearth', resurrect the healthy and peaceful Universals people across time and place share in common that transcend the boundaries of time, culture and place. 
                       
                      Respectfully,
                      Susan English, a co-host
                       
                      sorry for typos....my eyes are swimming by the end of posts, and no cataract surgery until later in 2010 when I qualify for Medicare insurance..._
                       

                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                      >

                      > Monette, all;
                      >
                      > Hopefully you will reconsider and stay with our group.
                      >
                      > One interesting example in common throughout the world is the Microlithic blade. This seemingly simple tool has been found in the earliest levels of civilization.
                      >
                      > Microblades at Cahokia were found with copper workshop evidence.
                      > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Erb%20and%20Mathews%20collections/Microblade%20Core/
                      >
                      > Further Documentation of "Old-world and New-world" Microblade Chronology:
                      > The gap between this upper palaeolithic and the neolithic-chalcolithic cultures has
                      > now been bridged in some regions such as Uttar Pradesh, Karnatak and SE. Rajasthan
                      > by microlithic cultures, for which we have dates ranging from 8000 B.C. to 2000 B.C. There
                      > is no doubt that in some parts of India microlithic cultures continued to flourish side by
                      > side with other advanced cultures (Misra 1971).
                      > (Prehistoric colonization of India)
                      >
                      > The Ahar culture, as revealed by the excavations at Ahar, has been found to be a purely
                      > copper-using culture (I.A.R. 1961-2: 50). At Gilund (Rajasthan), however, a few microliths
                      > were found associated with this culture (I.A.R. 1959-60: 41).
                      > Ahar Culture (1700-1500 BC)
                      > (New Light on the Prehistoric Cultures of Central India)
                      >
                      > At most of the excavated sites of the Upper Gangetic Valley the Ochre Coloured
                      > Pottery is succeeded by the Painted Grey Ware but at two of them, Atranjikhera 6,
                      > and Noh '), an ill-defined Black-and-Red Ware horizon is interposed between
                      > these two levels. Nothing is known about the cultural identity of this Black-and-Red
                      > Ware except that it XI-as associated at Atranjikhera with "microlithic cores and copper."
                      > A clear appraisal must await fuller investigation
                      > (Prehistoric Ganges)
                      >
                      > While a wide variety of microlithic implements along with a more or less extensive use of Copper
                      > form the basic technological ingredient, the primary crop cultivated was rice.
                      > There was a wide assortment of plain and painted wheelmade wares among which a
                      > Black-and-Red Ware formed the dominant element. This Black-and-Red Ware
                      > has been discovered as far as Rajghat l) and Sohgaura 2, in East U.P. The C-14 dates
                      > suggest a beginning around I roo B.C. 3). The origin is obscure but there is little
                      > evidence for a migration of the chalcolithic elements from South-east Rajasthan,
                      > Central India or Deccan. This chalcolithic level gradually merged into an iron-using
                      > stage around 700 B.C. 4). This aspect of the gradual merger between the chalcolithic
                      > and iron-using stages is clear from the sequences of Chirand and Mahisdal where
                      > chalcolithic elements including pottery and microlithic tools continue significantly
                      > in the iron-using level. Early historic period began, as in the Upper Gangetic Valley,
                      > in the sixth century B.C.
                      > (Prehistoric Ganges)
                      >
                      > The technological traditions of the Franco-Iberian
                      > Solutrean were firmly rooted in those of the
                      > Gravettian (middle Upper Paleolithic) of western
                      > Europe. Depending on the local availability and quality
                      > of lithic raw materials, as well as on site function,
                      > blanks used for making stone implements were
                      > flakes, blades, and bladelets ("micro-blades" in
                      > American terminology), although the Solutrean leaf,
                      > shouldered, and stemmed points were usually made
                      > on blades often produced from diverse specific forms
                      > of prismatic cores. The hallmark of Solutrean lithic
                      > technology is indeed its projectile component, consisting
                      > of both a variety of single-element tips (of
                      > widely varying sizes and weights, including many
                      > "laurel leaves" that may actually have been used as
                      > knives) and (especially in later Solutrean contexts)
                      > backed bladelets that were used multiply as barbs
                      > and/ or tips of projectiles, whose other elements were
                      > basally beveled antler points.
                      > (soulterian)
                      >
                      > Microblades, tanged and
                      > shouldered points-all common in various Solutrean
                      > assemblages-are absent in the far more limited technological
                      > repertoire of Clovis. While there are superficial
                      > similarities (e.g., some concave base foliate
                      > projectile points, some organic points or foreshafts
                      > with anti-skid engraved lines on basal bevels), these
                      > are most parsimoniously explainable as independent
                      > developments-similar solutions to similar functional
                      > problems, given limited available lithic and
                      > osseous materials and manufacturing techniques.
                      > The fact that red ochre was used by people in both
                      > techno-complexes-as cited by Stanford-is meaningless,
                      > as such pigment use is virtually a cultural
                      > universal among Homo sapiens foragers worldwide.
                      > (Soulterian)
                      >
                      > The creativity of the Solutrean extended
                      > beyond the "arms race" that is attested by the plethora
                      > of lithic and antler point sizes and types (and even
                      > 224 AMERICAN ANTIQUITY [Vol. 65, No. 2, 20001
                      > backed micro-blade elements) and by the invention
                      > of the spearthrower.
                      > (souterian)
                      >
                      > Yet such pieces in the Solutrean are
                      > found only at a handful of sites in a small area of
                      > northern Spain-not in France or in the rest of Iberia.
                      > Nor are the Solutrean points fluted, a feature which
                      > is absolutely diagnostic of Clovis points. Shouldered
                      > and stemmed points, as well as micro-blades, all so
                      > common in the Solutrean, are completely absent
                      > from the Clovis lithic repertory. And beveled antler
                      > points (or foreshafts), common in the Solutrean, are
                      > very rare in Clovis.
                      > (soulerian)
                      >
                      > The microliths
                      > are consistently found in association with pottery and bifacially
                      > worked projectile points of the Neolithic and
                      > Chalcolithic of the third and second millennia B.C.
                      > (USSR)
                      >
                      > The above observations as well as data from
                      > I. V. Sinitsyn's excavations on the Volga (Berezhnov
                      > I1 cemetery), from those on the left bank
                      > of the Dniepr (Bader 1950), and in Crimea
                      > (Krainov 1957), indicate a persistence of microlithic
                      > technology as late as the age of metal,
                      > allowing us to place microlithic sites in Asia as
                      > being Chalcolithic. Pottery found with microliths
                      > in Dzhanbas-Kala, Dzhebel Cave, and a
                      > series of eroded sites enables us to date microlithic
                      > sites in Kazakhstan and Central Asia in
                      > the main to the third and early second millennia
                      > B.C. This same chronological placement is
                      > indicated by the type of bifacially retouched
                      > projectile points-the triangular point with an
                      > indentation in the base. Points of this type are
                      > common in the third and second millennia B.C.
                      > and possibly were manufactured as early as the
                      > end of the fourth millennium.
                      > (USSR)
                      >
                      > Triangular Points of this type were found at Cahokia Mounds in abundance.
                      >
                      > The excavations of I. V.
                      > Sinitsyn in the Berezhnov I1 cemetery definitely
                      > linked the microlithic cultures of the lower
                      > Volga with the Yamno cultures of the third
                      > millennium B.C. Here in Kurgan (burial
                      > mound) 9, with Burials 3, 5, 9, and 17 were
                      > found two microblades, three end-scrapers
                      > made on blades, three rounded microscrapers,
                      > a composite tool, and two other artifacts quite
                      > usual in lower Volg-a sites. Thus, in the third
                      > millennium B.C. geometric tools were still being
                      > produced in the lower reaches of the Volga.
                      > (USSR)
                      >
                      > The Introduction
                      > of microblades is now seen as a regional tradition
                      > lasting from at least 1200 B.C. until around A.D. 400.
                      > (Microblades)
                      >
                      > Microblades and cores were next reported
                      > from the top horizon of DjRi3 in the Fraser Canyon,
                      > but the relation of these objects to the
                      > radiocarbon date given for the horizon, 410 B.C.
                      > 60 (S-112), is not made clear (Borden 1961:
                      > 1). (Microblades)
                      >
                      > As Table 1 indicates, date estimates for assemblages,
                      > including microblades or cores, range
                      > from 1210 B.C. 2 130 (GSC437) as the earliest
                      > to A.D. 370 f 140 (S-19) as the most recent.
                      > (Microblades)
                      >
                      > New World are in the
                      > far north and Mesoamerica. The Northwest
                      > Microblade tradition is estimated by MacNeish
                      > (Willey 1966: 415) to have begun about 6000
                      > B.C. The Arctic Small Tool tradition, starting at
                      > 4000-3000 B.c., spread from Alaska to Greenland
                      > and lasted until about 500 B.C. In Mesoamerica,
                      > the Tehuacin Valley sequence showed
                      > obsidian blades struck from prepared polyhedral
                      > cores in the Abejas phase, dated by MacNeish
                      > (1962) at 3400-2300 B.C. Willey (1966: 83)
                      > states "this common little instrument was to
                      > become one of the most persistent of the Mesoamerican
                      > technological traditions." In view of
                      > the probable advenr of other Mesoamerican
                      > traits into the Mississippi Valley in Poverty
                      > Point times, a Mesoamerican origin for the
                      > microflint industry seemq appropriate. One can
                      > only conjecture why this tool maintained its
                      > popularity only through Poverty Point and
                      > Hopewell times.
                      > (poverty Point)
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@... wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@...
                      > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information
                      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 10:08 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I have problems with this â€" you knew I would, right?
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > You have iconic rock art or pieces that appear to be related to
                      > other civilizations â€" in most cases undateable, untraceable, unreliable.  What
                      > you DON’T have is any corroborating evidence that anyone over in Europe or
                      > elsewhere knew or left records that they knew of these voyages to the New World
                      > for these resources you said they came here deliberately to get long before
                      > Columbus.  Why not?  Why, if those in Egypt, for instance, made regular voyages
                      > for supplies here is there nothing found over there about it?  Why would they
                      > hide any proof they might have that they’re people had been here so long ago? 
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > I do not think anyone, once the waters got so high, would brave
                      > the voyage for a few supplies.  Instead, it is much more likely that an
                      > occasional boat got swept off its typical Mediterranean route, or African
                      > route, or what you have, got swept off their route and, clinging to life, made
                      > it to land, only to perish or get absorbed into the current population.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Today’s waters, as you refer to people making it in dinghies, is
                      > much lower than it was even in Columbus’s Day.  So comparing us to them is a
                      > futile exercise.  We don’t even know what kind of water currents they were
                      > dealing with back then.  And comparing our race to the moon to people with simple
                      > boats staring across a vast open water with no land in sight?  We at least can
                      > see the moon.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Yes, humans will figure out things when they have to.  It just
                      > took awhile before they had to.  Africa, Asia, Russia, Europe, all connected,
                      > all pretty wide open, large land masses, until, well, until probably the
                      > Industrial Age when population growth boomed.  There simply wasn’t an impetus
                      > for crossing an ocean in the time period you’re talking about.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > And you cannot date your artifacts.  Someone scrawling on rock â€"
                      > I wish they could.  I love petroglyphs, I think they’re fascinating.  I’ve love
                      > them to be able to figure out how old they are.  Maybe someday…
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > You have an awful lot of guesswork here â€" a pretty picture, but
                      > all guesswork.  Not one of these so-called civilizations will back up these
                      > claims of yours that they were sailing here for copper or anything else in the
                      > periods you claim.  Why not?   You have to answer this.  Why not?
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > I don’t believe the linguistics connection, either.  Many of the
                      > root words could have developed before the first migration, and were retained,
                      > is all.  Or coincidental.  Or taken from that occasional sailor washed ashore. 
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Nothing given here adds up to anything more than wishful
                      > thinking.  What’s the proof?  One single shred of irrefutable evidence?
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Personally, I must apologize but I cannot continue this debate
                      > in any form.  I wish you all healthy ventures but I originally joined the AAPF
                      > hoping to gain support for the Archaic Copper Museum in Oconto.  I now realize
                      > that will never happen.  The Menominees and other tribal Indians tool the
                      > copper we’ve been finding, them and no one else.   
                      >
                      > Monette
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From:
                      > ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                      > [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Chris
                      > Patenaude
                      >
                      > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:01 PM
                      >
                      > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                      >
                      > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello, Monette! :-)
                      >
                      >
                      > The bulk of the 'new', and forward thinkers in the field
                      > of Anthropology, i'm sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning
                      > genetic stock of what would eventually be labeled "Native American"
                      > had roots from most every continental district of the globe. Just when
                      > exactly those mixtures arrived is what is commonly debated even amongst the
                      > die-hard "diffusionists".
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > It is my own belief that it did not take much 'technology'
                      > at all to cross the entire oceans without island hopping, then as now. People
                      > make it in single dingies, even a bathtub in today's sensationalistic
                      > headlines. Quite 'post-iceages' is when the Bronze Ages developed with a
                      > specific need to voyage and find tin. If you give a buncha humans an
                      > economically or politically inspired "need", you watch. They will
                      > achieve that goal, come heck or storm, in 15 yrs or less. Lookit what
                      > happened the instant Kennedy said we were going to beat the Russians to the
                      > moon or die trying. (some did) As short before that as 1949 it was predicted
                      > by 'specialists' that it would take 200 years to reach the moon. 10 yrs
                      > later, that estimate was downscaled to the yr 2000. Eight yrs later we were
                      > bringing back moonrocks.
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > Never underestimate human endevor. Have you been to the
                      > Smithsonian and seen the duplicate LEM they have in the Aerospace section?
                      > It's about as sturdy-looking as a puffed out Jiffypop pan made of
                      > aluminum foil and steel wire, i swear! But they made it. Moral of story,
                      > humans will figure out exactly what they can just squeak by with as support
                      > base and muscle their way thru on a wing and a prayer to surprising ends. The
                      > minute people figured out a hollow log, twisted reed bundles or a bunch of
                      > bamboo tied together floated, we were off to see the world.
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > Bronze Age technology was affording the Indic-Sumer,
                      > Persian and Arabic people direct shot sailing from India across the Indian
                      > ocean to Madagascar and the east coast of Africa. If they were doing that
                      > jaunt, what would, in any sense, keep them from practically gliding free-fall
                      > across the Atlantic riding the currents into Brazil and the Caribbean.
                      > Nothing i can think of.  
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > We have Bolivia and the altiplano rife with tin AND copper
                      > in the same locale. Do you know how rare that is on Earth, finding both ores
                      > in the same handy location? There's the incentive. I'm sure there were
                      > backers for the fleets. We have the copper rich locations of the Great Lakes
                      > regions in North America. Incentive again, and Celts who knew how to guide
                      > the Iberian Punics to go get it.
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > So we have incentive, do we have proof that the contact
                      > happened post "ice age" but far ahead of "renaissance"
                      > shipbuilding?  The Chinese were far ahead of the Semitic/Indic crowd by
                      > several hundred years in efficient ship-building and oceanic traffic. They
                      > had court records of reaching lands beyond the horizon which were never
                      > logged in writing for navigational return. Compass points and distance were
                      > kept in living memory by the holders of power.  The political
                      > situations in pre-, and during, medieval China were usually
                      > unstable. Most records once kept by one dynasty were often
                      > destroyed out of jealousy and family-centric pride by the next. (Let alone
                      > the heads that held the valuable data.)
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > So what proof do we have here in the Americas that there
                      > was anything but isolationist development by the Natives for the last 5,000
                      > yrs? Epigraphy. Lots and lots and lots of symbolic representation not only in
                      > written format, but also in "native" vocabulary, syntax, stories
                      > and oral history among the tribes themselves. Ceramic and metal items,
                      > containers, cook pots and statuary from 2000 BCE up to 1300 CE created on
                      > this continent have direct comparison and reflection on styles and design
                      > from Old World example.
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > Clearly written Proto-Semitic, old and modern Arabic,
                      > ancient Celtic Ogham and even Sumerian cuniform have examples to show
                      > here from the Americas. OK, if the Old World wasn't coming over, then the
                      > Native Americans were going over THERE and coming back with new literacy in
                      > bi-lingual skills. Personally, i can see both happening. But there is no
                      > ignoring the solid-as-rock Epigraphy and the cultural signs woven into
                      > the traditions here in the Americas unless one wishes to toss all
                      > scientific objective observation out the window in favor of ostrich-in-sand
                      > or Schultzie- 'I see NUUTHINK' attitude.
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > So yes. If one wishes to be as coldly analytical as
                      > one pleases, there is plenty of evidence that the globe never lost track of
                      > itself as a living, breathing trade-net until the moment of the Black Plague
                      > in Europe. The nav-logs were in the captain's heads. They were likely some of
                      > the first victims to the ship-rats' plague-laden fleas. Two generations
                      > later, and the Sundowner country dissappeared into amnesia for lack of oral
                      > transmission. But the world, up TO that point, was certainly in touch with
                      > all it's parts. And the proof is all over the place if you choose to
                      > recognize the possibility.
                      >
                      >
                      > mho
                      >
                      >
                      > -chris
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@bayland. net>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@bayland. net>
                      >
                      > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                      >
                      > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                      >
                      > Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:54 AM
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Not sure I understand this, Ted. 
                      > After receiving a response from Ross â€" will respond later, Ross, I promise â€"
                      > I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it
                      > is exactly that we’re talking about.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Here’s my belief:
                      >  
                      > At one time many different groups of
                      > people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as
                      > Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels,
                      > due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take
                      > their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were
                      > able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 
                      >  
                      > Those peoples then BECAME what we
                      > refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from
                      > other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea
                      > anymore.  It’s well accepted.
                      >  
                      > But then after that last glaciers
                      > melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial
                      > period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel. 
                      > So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for
                      > crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the
                      > courage to try it. 
                      >  
                      > Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians
                      > or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these
                      > people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should
                      > not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to
                      > any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no
                      > identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.
                      >  
                      > As for Powell, the reason he is still
                      > given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American
                      > Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last
                      > melting of the glaciers â€" and that includes copper tooling.
                      >  
                      > I welcome discussion of this, to see
                      > how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. â€" which
                      > could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago â€" way before any known
                      > civilization had developed anywhere else.
                      > Monette
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > From:
                      > ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
                      >
                      > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
                      >
                      > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                      >
                      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to
                      > AWS members, this might get your attention.
                      >
                      >
                      > ted
                      > sojka
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  9 
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > There was apparently an important decision made at
                      > this time concerning the facilitation 
                      >
                      >
                      > of an enveloping theoryâ€"so necessary to create order
                      > where chaos loomed. Before 
                      >
                      >
                      > discharging a book, one logically creates an outline
                      > to guide one's thoughts. This was to 
                      >
                      >
                      > become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide
                      > the angle of vision for the 
                      >
                      >
                      > categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one
                      > hand, the belief that others 
                      >
                      >
                      > discovered North America before Columbus (such as
                      > Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 
                      >
                      >
                      > Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian
                      > mariners) was explored. On the other 
                      >
                      >
                      > hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated
                      > from outside influences was put on 
                      >
                      >
                      > the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's
                      > deference to the native kinship that the latter 
                      >
                      >
                      > ideaâ€"i.e., screening out any extra-continental
                      > visitorsâ€"was adopted. Needless to say, 
                      >
                      >
                      > this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that
                      > has affected decision-making right 
                      >
                      >
                      > until the present day. On the positive side it
                      > viably linked the living factions of the Native 
                      >
                      >
                      > American people with the more ancient mound building
                      > folk, and shortly thereafter was 
                      >
                      >
                      > responsible for the faintly successful preservation
                      > of what remained of the mound 
                      >
                      >
                      > builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how
                      > aspects of Powell's work, such as 
                      >
                      >
                      > analysis of the social order of the mound builders,
                      > was not a priority. 
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                    • Chris Patenaude
                      I m now convinced that Vince is a Savant- Indigo . He doesn t worry about making time in his schedule, i figger he just warps space and steps into another
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 11, 2009
                        I'm now convinced that Vince is a Savant-"Indigo". He doesn't worry about 'making time' in his schedule, i figger he just warps space and steps into another dimension to type, then pops back into the time-stream when he's ready to post. gotta be it...
                        -c

                        --- On Tue, 8/11/09, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

                        From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: a bit of information
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 3:31 PM



                        All,
                         
                        Back from travels, I appreciated the honesty in Monette's last posts yet am very sorry that she found it necessary to leave the group, am appreciative of the contributions she made, and will miss those she would have brought forth had she stayed on or others had responsed to her efforts to tell us more about the Old Copper Culture museum and aboriginal peoples who dwelled there at least since 7500 BC.
                         
                        I know you are working sixty hour weeks in your engineering job, Vince, and appreciate the time and well-presented letter you presented. As I do all of you here expressing and continuing to clarify the best of what you believe in the ways you keeping learning to intercommunicate to and with others of diverse persuasions. 
                         
                        Ms. Bebow-Reinhardt's and others' leaving our group saddens me; it is always delightful to have among this group ones neither solidly US 'diffusionist' nor decidedly 'isolationist'.  Especially true with Monette, one who diplomatically listens to a variety of viewpoints, yet carefully selects ways of dialoging.  Yet puts herself on what I like to refer to as "Indian time",  no matter how many pressing responsibilities come along....to pull off along these waters and joined us here to sit in counsil with those here of diverse ideas, opinions, and scientifically-intended beliefs.  Especially courageous when dialoguing with predominantly dye-in-the wool US diffusionists arguing for proof of such using predominantly physical evidence and data spanning from wide span of historic and ancient periods.  
                         
                        Being preferentially a "group person" yet novice researcher,  I struggle awkwardly in my role as interconnector and intercommmunicator here, as you can see often.  I apologize for using too many words to say so little and my inabilities to understand much of what you are intercommunicating in posts here.  And to smooth troubled waters toward higher and deeper multi-cultural understandings here.
                         
                        Long ago I signed my name under the banner "Ancient Waterways Society" to emphasize global waterways,  rather than a narrow, culturally-biased and strictly Ancient American-oriented 'world'view.  Then later helped spark the origins of this group with Pam Giese within an initial web site. then years later when MinnesotaStan offered to design and set up this web site with its founding suggestions.
                         
                        Upon occasion I also sign my name under a made- up "Diffusionists Without Borders" title to make a strong point, yet need to emphasize I am strictly diffusionist within certain areas of investigation.  Never where the term puts me into dualistic or absolute odds arrogantly against others or arguing a ludicrously jingoistic "Who was in the Americas First" case.
                         
                        I shall continue my previous intentions here of joining and assisting with physical labor of some sort at the Octonto Cold Copper Culture Museum near an old Lake Michigan shoreline (two hours east of my homoe), soon as fair weather flea market vending,  meetings and conferences ends, and before the blizzardly winds engage.  I had camped alone, walked the grounds of the Oconto site more than once many years ago when the museum was closed down,  no curator existed, and public interest in the site dormant.  Monette's attempts at intercommunicating with us here, when she and AAPS came together during a weekend-long open house in Oconto, and her talk at the AAPS Keweenaw Conference in July, showed me the courage, dedication, diplomacy and perserverence I like in a friend.  I will personally enjoy learning more about her work, the museum, and legacies of the people present and ancient past she is helping to resurrect and preserve.  But will miss her here and what she would have continued to share with my friends here at Ancient Waterways Society.  
                         
                        I do appreciate the efforts of each of you here at this web site to express the best of yourselves and your work, fondest for me when done inclusively of others, with humility and non-competitiveness.  Especially when each of you helps enhance the ideas and works of others.  I do believe members' ideas and scientific investigations could very well help this world shine brighter if we can 'unearth', resurrect the healthy and peaceful Universals people across time and place share in common that transcend the boundaries of time, culture and place. 
                         
                        Respectfully,
                        Susan English, a co-host
                         
                        sorry for typos....my eyes are swimming by the end of posts, and no cataract surgery until later in 2010 when I qualify for Medicare insurance..._
                         

                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                        >

                        > Monette, all;
                        >
                        > Hopefully you will reconsider and stay with our group.
                        >
                        > One interesting example in common throughout the world is the Microlithic blade. This seemingly simple tool has been found in the earliest levels of civilization.
                        >
                        > Microblades at Cahokia were found with copper workshop evidence.
                        > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Erb%20and%20Mathews%20collections/Microblade%20Core/
                        >
                        > Further Documentation of "Old-world and New-world" Microblade Chronology:
                        > The gap between this upper palaeolithic and the neolithic-chalcolithic cultures has
                        > now been bridged in some regions such as Uttar Pradesh, Karnatak and SE. Rajasthan
                        > by microlithic cultures, for which we have dates ranging from 8000 B.C. to 2000 B.C. There
                        > is no doubt that in some parts of India microlithic cultures continued to flourish side by
                        > side with other advanced cultures (Misra 1971).
                        > (Prehistoric colonization of India)
                        >
                        > The Ahar culture, as revealed by the excavations at Ahar, has been found to be a purely
                        > copper-using culture (I.A.R. 1961-2: 50). At Gilund (Rajasthan), however, a few microliths
                        > were found associated with this culture (I.A.R. 1959-60: 41).
                        > Ahar Culture (1700-1500 BC)
                        > (New Light on the Prehistoric Cultures of Central India)
                        >
                        > At most of the excavated sites of the Upper Gangetic Valley the Ochre Coloured
                        > Pottery is succeeded by the Painted Grey Ware but at two of them, Atranjikhera 6,
                        > and Noh '), an ill-defined Black-and-Red Ware horizon is interposed between
                        > these two levels. Nothing is known about the cultural identity of this Black-and-Red
                        > Ware except that it XI-as associated at Atranjikhera with "microlithic cores and copper."
                        > A clear appraisal must await fuller investigation
                        > (Prehistoric Ganges)
                        >
                        > While a wide variety of microlithic implements along with a more or less extensive use of Copper
                        > form the basic technological ingredient, the primary crop cultivated was rice.
                        > There was a wide assortment of plain and painted wheelmade wares among which a
                        > Black-and-Red Ware formed the dominant element. This Black-and-Red Ware
                        > has been discovered as far as Rajghat l) and Sohgaura 2, in East U.P. The C-14 dates
                        > suggest a beginning around I roo B.C. 3). The origin is obscure but there is little
                        > evidence for a migration of the chalcolithic elements from South-east Rajasthan,
                        > Central India or Deccan. This chalcolithic level gradually merged into an iron-using
                        > stage around 700 B.C. 4). This aspect of the gradual merger between the chalcolithic
                        > and iron-using stages is clear from the sequences of Chirand and Mahisdal where
                        > chalcolithic elements including pottery and microlithic tools continue significantly
                        > in the iron-using level. Early historic period began, as in the Upper Gangetic Valley,
                        > in the sixth century B.C.
                        > (Prehistoric Ganges)
                        >
                        > The technological traditions of the Franco-Iberian
                        > Solutrean were firmly rooted in those of the
                        > Gravettian (middle Upper Paleolithic) of western
                        > Europe. Depending on the local availability and quality
                        > of lithic raw materials, as well as on site function,
                        > blanks used for making stone implements were
                        > flakes, blades, and bladelets ("micro-blades" in
                        > American terminology), although the Solutrean leaf,
                        > shouldered, and stemmed points were usually made
                        > on blades often produced from diverse specific forms
                        > of prismatic cores. The hallmark of Solutrean lithic
                        > technology is indeed its projectile component, consisting
                        > of both a variety of single-element tips (of
                        > widely varying sizes and weights, including many
                        > "laurel leaves" that may actually have been used as
                        > knives) and (especially in later Solutrean contexts)
                        > backed bladelets that were used multiply as barbs
                        > and/ or tips of projectiles, whose other elements were
                        > basally beveled antler points.
                        > (soulterian)
                        >
                        > Microblades, tanged and
                        > shouldered points-all common in various Solutrean
                        > assemblages-are absent in the far more limited technological
                        > repertoire of Clovis. While there are superficial
                        > similarities (e.g., some concave base foliate
                        > projectile points, some organic points or foreshafts
                        > with anti-skid engraved lines on basal bevels), these
                        > are most parsimoniously explainable as independent
                        > developments-similar solutions to similar functional
                        > problems, given limited available lithic and
                        > osseous materials and manufacturing techniques.
                        > The fact that red ochre was used by people in both
                        > techno-complexes-as cited by Stanford-is meaningless,
                        > as such pigment use is virtually a cultural
                        > universal among Homo sapiens foragers worldwide.
                        > (Soulterian)
                        >
                        > The creativity of the Solutrean extended
                        > beyond the "arms race" that is attested by the plethora
                        > of lithic and antler point sizes and types (and even
                        > 224 AMERICAN ANTIQUITY [Vol. 65, No. 2, 20001
                        > backed micro-blade elements) and by the invention
                        > of the spearthrower.
                        > (souterian)
                        >
                        > Yet such pieces in the Solutrean are
                        > found only at a handful of sites in a small area of
                        > northern Spain-not in France or in the rest of Iberia.
                        > Nor are the Solutrean points fluted, a feature which
                        > is absolutely diagnostic of Clovis points. Shouldered
                        > and stemmed points, as well as micro-blades, all so
                        > common in the Solutrean, are completely absent
                        > from the Clovis lithic repertory. And beveled antler
                        > points (or foreshafts), common in the Solutrean, are
                        > very rare in Clovis.
                        > (soulerian)
                        >
                        > The microliths
                        > are consistently found in association with pottery and bifacially
                        > worked projectile points of the Neolithic and
                        > Chalcolithic of the third and second millennia B.C.
                        > (USSR)
                        >
                        > The above observations as well as data from
                        > I. V. Sinitsyn's excavations on the Volga (Berezhnov
                        > I1 cemetery), from those on the left bank
                        > of the Dniepr (Bader 1950), and in Crimea
                        > (Krainov 1957), indicate a persistence of microlithic
                        > technology as late as the age of metal,
                        > allowing us to place microlithic sites in Asia as
                        > being Chalcolithic. Pottery found with microliths
                        > in Dzhanbas-Kala, Dzhebel Cave, and a
                        > series of eroded sites enables us to date microlithic
                        > sites in Kazakhstan and Central Asia in
                        > the main to the third and early second millennia
                        > B.C. This same chronological placement is
                        > indicated by the type of bifacially retouched
                        > projectile points-the triangular point with an
                        > indentation in the base. Points of this type are
                        > common in the third and second millennia B.C.
                        > and possibly were manufactured as early as the
                        > end of the fourth millennium.
                        > (USSR)
                        >
                        > Triangular Points of this type were found at Cahokia Mounds in abundance.
                        >
                        > The excavations of I. V.
                        > Sinitsyn in the Berezhnov I1 cemetery definitely
                        > linked the microlithic cultures of the lower
                        > Volga with the Yamno cultures of the third
                        > millennium B.C. Here in Kurgan (burial
                        > mound) 9, with Burials 3, 5, 9, and 17 were
                        > found two microblades, three end-scrapers
                        > made on blades, three rounded microscrapers,
                        > a composite tool, and two other artifacts quite
                        > usual in lower Volg-a sites. Thus, in the third
                        > millennium B.C. geometric tools were still being
                        > produced in the lower reaches of the Volga.
                        > (USSR)
                        >
                        > The Introduction
                        > of microblades is now seen as a regional tradition
                        > lasting from at least 1200 B.C. until around A.D. 400.
                        > (Microblades)
                        >
                        > Microblades and cores were next reported
                        > from the top horizon of DjRi3 in the Fraser Canyon,
                        > but the relation of these objects to the
                        > radiocarbon date given for the horizon, 410 B.C.
                        > 60 (S-112), is not made clear (Borden 1961:
                        > 1). (Microblades)
                        >
                        > As Table 1 indicates, date estimates for assemblages,
                        > including microblades or cores, range
                        > from 1210 B.C. 2 130 (GSC437) as the earliest
                        > to A.D. 370 f 140 (S-19) as the most recent.
                        > (Microblades)
                        >
                        > New World are in the
                        > far north and Mesoamerica. The Northwest
                        > Microblade tradition is estimated by MacNeish
                        > (Willey 1966: 415) to have begun about 6000
                        > B.C. The Arctic Small Tool tradition, starting at
                        > 4000-3000 B.c., spread from Alaska to Greenland
                        > and lasted until about 500 B.C. In Mesoamerica,
                        > the Tehuacin Valley sequence showed
                        > obsidian blades struck from prepared polyhedral
                        > cores in the Abejas phase, dated by MacNeish
                        > (1962) at 3400-2300 B.C. Willey (1966: 83)
                        > states "this common little instrument was to
                        > become one of the most persistent of the Mesoamerican
                        > technological traditions." In view of
                        > the probable advenr of other Mesoamerican
                        > traits into the Mississippi Valley in Poverty
                        > Point times, a Mesoamerican origin for the
                        > microflint industry seemq appropriate. One can
                        > only conjecture why this tool maintained its
                        > popularity only through Poverty Point and
                        > Hopewell times.
                        > (poverty Point)
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@... wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@...
                        > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] a bit of information
                        > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 10:08 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I have problems with this â€" you knew I would, right?
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > You have iconic rock art or pieces that appear to be related to
                        > other civilizations â€" in most cases undateable, untraceable, unreliable.  What
                        > you DON’T have is any corroborating evidence that anyone over in Europe or
                        > elsewhere knew or left records that they knew of these voyages to the New World
                        > for these resources you said they came here deliberately to get long before
                        > Columbus.  Why not?  Why, if those in Egypt, for instance, made regular voyages
                        > for supplies here is there nothing found over there about it?  Why would they
                        > hide any proof they might have that they’re people had been here so long ago? 
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > I do not think anyone, once the waters got so high, would brave
                        > the voyage for a few supplies.  Instead, it is much more likely that an
                        > occasional boat got swept off its typical Mediterranean route, or African
                        > route, or what you have, got swept off their route and, clinging to life, made
                        > it to land, only to perish or get absorbed into the current population.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Today’s waters, as you refer to people making it in dinghies, is
                        > much lower than it was even in Columbus’s Day.  So comparing us to them is a
                        > futile exercise.  We don’t even know what kind of water currents they were
                        > dealing with back then.  And comparing our race to the moon to people with simple
                        > boats staring across a vast open water with no land in sight?  We at least can
                        > see the moon.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Yes, humans will figure out things when they have to.  It just
                        > took awhile before they had to.  Africa, Asia, Russia, Europe, all connected,
                        > all pretty wide open, large land masses, until, well, until probably the
                        > Industrial Age when population growth boomed.  There simply wasn’t an impetus
                        > for crossing an ocean in the time period you’re talking about.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > And you cannot date your artifacts.  Someone scrawling on rock â€"
                        > I wish they could.  I love petroglyphs, I think they’re fascinating.  I’ve love
                        > them to be able to figure out how old they are.  Maybe someday…
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > You have an awful lot of guesswork here â€" a pretty picture, but
                        > all guesswork.  Not one of these so-called civilizations will back up these
                        > claims of yours that they were sailing here for copper or anything else in the
                        > periods you claim.  Why not?   You have to answer this.  Why not?
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > I don’t believe the linguistics connection, either.  Many of the
                        > root words could have developed before the first migration, and were retained,
                        > is all.  Or coincidental.  Or taken from that occasional sailor washed ashore. 
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Nothing given here adds up to anything more than wishful
                        > thinking.  What’s the proof?  One single shred of irrefutable evidence?
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Personally, I must apologize but I cannot continue this debate
                        > in any form.  I wish you all healthy ventures but I originally joined the AAPF
                        > hoping to gain support for the Archaic Copper Museum in Oconto.  I now realize
                        > that will never happen.  The Menominees and other tribal Indians tool the
                        > copper we’ve been finding, them and no one else.   
                        >
                        > Monette
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From:
                        > ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                        > [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Chris
                        > Patenaude
                        >
                        > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:01 PM
                        >
                        > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello, Monette! :-)
                        >
                        >
                        > The bulk of the 'new', and forward thinkers in the field
                        > of Anthropology, i'm sure agree enmasse with the concept that the beginning
                        > genetic stock of what would eventually be labeled "Native American"
                        > had roots from most every continental district of the globe. Just when
                        > exactly those mixtures arrived is what is commonly debated even amongst the
                        > die-hard "diffusionists".
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > It is my own belief that it did not take much 'technology'
                        > at all to cross the entire oceans without island hopping, then as now. People
                        > make it in single dingies, even a bathtub in today's sensationalistic
                        > headlines. Quite 'post-iceages' is when the Bronze Ages developed with a
                        > specific need to voyage and find tin. If you give a buncha humans an
                        > economically or politically inspired "need", you watch. They will
                        > achieve that goal, come heck or storm, in 15 yrs or less. Lookit what
                        > happened the instant Kennedy said we were going to beat the Russians to the
                        > moon or die trying. (some did) As short before that as 1949 it was predicted
                        > by 'specialists' that it would take 200 years to reach the moon. 10 yrs
                        > later, that estimate was downscaled to the yr 2000. Eight yrs later we were
                        > bringing back moonrocks.
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > Never underestimate human endevor. Have you been to the
                        > Smithsonian and seen the duplicate LEM they have in the Aerospace section?
                        > It's about as sturdy-looking as a puffed out Jiffypop pan made of
                        > aluminum foil and steel wire, i swear! But they made it. Moral of story,
                        > humans will figure out exactly what they can just squeak by with as support
                        > base and muscle their way thru on a wing and a prayer to surprising ends. The
                        > minute people figured out a hollow log, twisted reed bundles or a bunch of
                        > bamboo tied together floated, we were off to see the world.
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > Bronze Age technology was affording the Indic-Sumer,
                        > Persian and Arabic people direct shot sailing from India across the Indian
                        > ocean to Madagascar and the east coast of Africa. If they were doing that
                        > jaunt, what would, in any sense, keep them from practically gliding free-fall
                        > across the Atlantic riding the currents into Brazil and the Caribbean.
                        > Nothing i can think of.  
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > We have Bolivia and the altiplano rife with tin AND copper
                        > in the same locale. Do you know how rare that is on Earth, finding both ores
                        > in the same handy location? There's the incentive. I'm sure there were
                        > backers for the fleets. We have the copper rich locations of the Great Lakes
                        > regions in North America. Incentive again, and Celts who knew how to guide
                        > the Iberian Punics to go get it.
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > So we have incentive, do we have proof that the contact
                        > happened post "ice age" but far ahead of "renaissance"
                        > shipbuilding?  The Chinese were far ahead of the Semitic/Indic crowd by
                        > several hundred years in efficient ship-building and oceanic traffic. They
                        > had court records of reaching lands beyond the horizon which were never
                        > logged in writing for navigational return. Compass points and distance were
                        > kept in living memory by the holders of power.  The political
                        > situations in pre-, and during, medieval China were usually
                        > unstable. Most records once kept by one dynasty were often
                        > destroyed out of jealousy and family-centric pride by the next. (Let alone
                        > the heads that held the valuable data.)
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > So what proof do we have here in the Americas that there
                        > was anything but isolationist development by the Natives for the last 5,000
                        > yrs? Epigraphy. Lots and lots and lots of symbolic representation not only in
                        > written format, but also in "native" vocabulary, syntax, stories
                        > and oral history among the tribes themselves. Ceramic and metal items,
                        > containers, cook pots and statuary from 2000 BCE up to 1300 CE created on
                        > this continent have direct comparison and reflection on styles and design
                        > from Old World example.
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > Clearly written Proto-Semitic, old and modern Arabic,
                        > ancient Celtic Ogham and even Sumerian cuniform have examples to show
                        > here from the Americas. OK, if the Old World wasn't coming over, then the
                        > Native Americans were going over THERE and coming back with new literacy in
                        > bi-lingual skills. Personally, i can see both happening. But there is no
                        > ignoring the solid-as-rock Epigraphy and the cultural signs woven into
                        > the traditions here in the Americas unless one wishes to toss all
                        > scientific objective observation out the window in favor of ostrich-in-sand
                        > or Schultzie- 'I see NUUTHINK' attitude.
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > So yes. If one wishes to be as coldly analytical as
                        > one pleases, there is plenty of evidence that the globe never lost track of
                        > itself as a living, breathing trade-net until the moment of the Black Plague
                        > in Europe. The nav-logs were in the captain's heads. They were likely some of
                        > the first victims to the ship-rats' plague-laden fleas. Two generations
                        > later, and the Sundowner country dissappeared into amnesia for lack of oral
                        > transmission. But the world, up TO that point, was certainly in touch with
                        > all it's parts. And the proof is all over the place if you choose to
                        > recognize the possibility.
                        >
                        >
                        > mho
                        >
                        >
                        > -chris
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@bayland. net>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Monette Bebow-Reinhard grimm1@bayland. net>
                        >
                        > Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                        >
                        > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:54 AM
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Not sure I understand this, Ted. 
                        > After receiving a response from Ross â€" will respond later, Ross, I promise â€"
                        > I figured that the main problem we’re having here is in understanding what it
                        > is exactly that we’re talking about.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Here’s my belief:
                        >  
                        > At one time many different groups of
                        > people migrated here from any different areas of land mass now known as
                        > Europe, Asia and Africa (and others), because at one time the water levels,
                        > due to one of several glaciations periods, were low enough for them to take
                        > their more crudely (in terms of later technology) built boats and they were
                        > able to more easily see from one land mass (islands) to the next. 
                        >  
                        > Those peoples then BECAME what we
                        > refer to now as American Indians.  A conglomeration of peoples from
                        > other lands.  I don’t see how anyone anywhere can debate this idea
                        > anymore.  It’s well accepted.
                        >  
                        > But then after that last glaciers
                        > melted, all of this kind of island hopping stopped.  Each time a glacial
                        > period ended, water levels would have risen too high for boat travel. 
                        > So after the Wisconsin glaciations, water levels were again too high for
                        > crossing oceans, until the technology of Columbus’s Day (ugh) gave them the
                        > courage to try it. 
                        >  
                        > Calling them Egyptians or Phoenicians
                        > or Greeks or anything else that came here clouds the fact  that these
                        > people were likely darker skinned, pre-Greek, pre-Aryan, etc., and we should
                        > not be trying to seek a strict identity of these American Indian ancestors to
                        > any specific civilization ‘over there’ because there really was no
                        > identifiable civilization at the time they came from there, to here.
                        >  
                        > As for Powell, the reason he is still
                        > given credit is because no one has been able to disprove that the American
                        > Indian ancestors created all civilization in this country since the last
                        > melting of the glaciers â€" and that includes copper tooling.
                        >  
                        > I welcome discussion of this, to see
                        > how far I am from what others here think of the peopling of the U.S. â€" which
                        > could have happened as much as 40,000 years ago â€" way before any known
                        > civilization had developed anywhere else.
                        > Monette
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > From:
                        > ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:ancient_ waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com]
                        > On Behalf Of Ted Sojka
                        >
                        > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:06 AM
                        >
                        > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] a bit of information
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If you did not read the jpg that Ross Hamilton sent out to
                        > AWS members, this might get your attention.
                        >
                        >
                        > ted
                        > sojka
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  9 
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Powell’s Doctrine of Isolation 
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There was apparently an important decision made at
                        > this time concerning the facilitation 
                        >
                        >
                        > of an enveloping theoryâ€"so necessary to create order
                        > where chaos loomed. Before 
                        >
                        >
                        > discharging a book, one logically creates an outline
                        > to guide one's thoughts. This was to 
                        >
                        >
                        > become a hierarchical arrangement that would decide
                        > the angle of vision for the 
                        >
                        >
                        > categorizing of the finds that would be made. On one
                        > hand, the belief that others 
                        >
                        >
                        > discovered North America before Columbus (such as
                        > Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebraic, 
                        >
                        >
                        > Greek, Roman, Celt, Scandinavian, or even Asian
                        > mariners) was explored. On the other 
                        >
                        >
                        > hand, the idea of the continent having been isolated
                        > from outside influences was put on 
                        >
                        >
                        > the table. It was perhaps because of Powell's
                        > deference to the native kinship that the latter 
                        >
                        >
                        > ideaâ€"i.e., screening out any extra-continental
                        > visitorsâ€"was adopted. Needless to say, 
                        >
                        >
                        > this was an extraordinary assumption, and one that
                        > has affected decision-making right 
                        >
                        >
                        > until the present day. On the positive side it
                        > viably linked the living factions of the Native 
                        >
                        >
                        > American people with the more ancient mound building
                        > folk, and shortly thereafter was 
                        >
                        >
                        > responsible for the faintly successful preservation
                        > of what remained of the mound 
                        >
                        >
                        > builder's legacy. From this it may be understood how
                        > aspects of Powell's work, such as 
                        >
                        >
                        > analysis of the social order of the mound builders,
                        > was not a priority. 
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >



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