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Re: A little Photo info on Basalt artifact added to ancient_waterways_society

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  • Susan
    Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All, Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt. Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 6 12:43 AM
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      Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,

      Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
      Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
      please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.

      Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from that
      are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?

      It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami Circle".
      I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
      nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists started
      the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
      bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
      investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
      from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
      country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
      around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
      blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
      with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
      post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.

      Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
      and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
      this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
      Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a number
      of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
      and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
      matter.

      My role in the several years I have been interested in things ancient
      has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
      groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly weak
      in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on archaeology,
      and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to the
      rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget are
      in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since school
      until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics to
      seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from the
      many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
      as I enter more into semi-retirement.

      Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
      multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
      thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
      group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
      researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
      sites.

      Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
      started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
      ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
      member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's personal
      note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:

      http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/

      I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the Grreat
      Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
      into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
      continuously.

      Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen to
      your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
      interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
      few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.

      Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the intimacy
      of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.

      Cordially,
      M. Susan English
      http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
      clark jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes
      at
      > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn't
      > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
      > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
      >
      > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
      >
      > however...
      >
      > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
      > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
      > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
      > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
      > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility is
      > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
      > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
      >
      > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
      > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
      > (1969):365-75.
      >
      >
      >
      > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
      >
      > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
      > suggests
      >
      > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
      >
      > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
      but
      > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A short
      > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
      > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
      already
      > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest that
      > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
      Greeks
      > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten from
      a
      > modern perspective.
      >
      > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met the
      > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
      the
      > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
      > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
      >
      > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his map
      > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than I
      > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along the
      > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
      >
      > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
      > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
      they
      > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
      pdf
      > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)because
      > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
      > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about the
      > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
      > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
      > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
      now
      > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
      > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which is
      > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
      >
      > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
      >
      > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
      > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use to
      > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
      > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
      > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
      > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
      > ethnologist.
      >
      > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
      > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How they
      > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is questionable
      > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would indicate.
      >
      > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
      1937
      > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
      > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In the
      > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
      > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
      >
      > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take another
      20
      > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
      >
      > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been known
      > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
      > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated along
      > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
      > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
      the
      > Northwest corner of Ga.
      >
      > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
      >
      > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
      > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
      > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
      > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
      > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
      > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
      > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
      > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
      > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved only
      > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
      > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
      > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
      > them ...
      >
      > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
      > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
      > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
      > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and eighty
      > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even, and
      > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been seen
      > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
      >
      > "The agent appointed by the government of the
      > United States to attend the national assembly of
      > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
      > Justice."
      >
      >
      > Note 13
      > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
      > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
      > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
      > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
      > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
      >
      > Note 14
      > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
      > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
      > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
      > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
      >
      > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
      >
      > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
      > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
      >
      > thanks and be well,
      > jmcjr
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
      > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
      > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
      > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
      > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
      > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like
      than
      > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
      > >
      > > stan
      > >
      >
    • james m. clark jr.
      Hi Susan, all hammerstones? Ok I guess you may have thought that the same artifact at AWS/my profile was worked with a hammer, right? No, I don t think it was
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 6 1:23 AM
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        Hi Susan, all

        hammerstones? Ok I guess you may have thought that the same artifact
        at AWS/my profile was worked with a hammer, right? No, I don't think
        it was worked with a hammer, but the impression of the oval is more
        like a flat sword or knife-like implement. I haven't thought about it
        until now, but it would be interesting to look at hardware that
        Desoto's men may have had posessions of at that time.

        As far as I know the Tima woman still has it; it was a birthday gift
        from her father and they both still live here. As a tool, it appears
        to have been used for grinding something on a very flat surface on one
        side it's as flat as a table surface and smooth as the finish.

        be well,
        jamey


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,
        >
        > Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
        > Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
        > please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.
        >
        > Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from that
        > are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?
        >
        > It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami Circle".
        > I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
        > nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists started
        > the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
        > bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
        > investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
        > from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
        > country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
        > around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
        > blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
        > with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
        > post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.
        >
        > Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
        > and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
        > this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
        > Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a number
        > of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
        > and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
        > matter.
        >
        > My role in the several years I have been interested in things ancient
        > has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
        > groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly weak
        > in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on archaeology,
        > and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to the
        > rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget are
        > in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since school
        > until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics to
        > seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from the
        > many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
        > as I enter more into semi-retirement.
        >
        > Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
        > multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
        > thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
        > group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
        > researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
        > sites.
        >
        > Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
        > started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
        > ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
        > member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's personal
        > note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:
        >
        > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/
        >
        > I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the Grreat
        > Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
        > into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
        > continuously.
        >
        > Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen to
        > your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
        > interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
        > few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.
        >
        > Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the intimacy
        > of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.
        >
        > Cordially,
        > M. Susan English
        > http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
        > clark jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
        > >
        > > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes
        > at
        > > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn't
        > > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
        > > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
        > >
        > > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
        > >
        > > however...
        > >
        > > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
        > > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
        > > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
        > > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
        > > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility is
        > > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
        > > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
        > >
        > > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
        > > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
        > > (1969):365-75.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
        > >
        > > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
        > > suggests
        > >
        > > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
        > >
        > > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
        > but
        > > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A short
        > > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
        > > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
        > already
        > > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest that
        > > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
        > Greeks
        > > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten from
        > a
        > > modern perspective.
        > >
        > > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met the
        > > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
        > the
        > > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
        > > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
        > >
        > > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his map
        > > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than I
        > > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along the
        > > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
        > >
        > > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
        > > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
        > they
        > > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
        > pdf
        > > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)because
        > > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
        > > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about the
        > > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
        > > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
        > > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
        > now
        > > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
        > > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which is
        > > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
        > >
        > > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
        > >
        > > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
        > > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use to
        > > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
        > > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
        > > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
        > > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
        > > ethnologist.
        > >
        > > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
        > > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How they
        > > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is questionable
        > > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would indicate.
        > >
        > > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
        > 1937
        > > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
        > > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In the
        > > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
        > > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
        > >
        > > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take another
        > 20
        > > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
        > >
        > > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been known
        > > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
        > > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated along
        > > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
        > > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
        > the
        > > Northwest corner of Ga.
        > >
        > > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
        > >
        > > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
        > > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
        > > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
        > > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
        > > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
        > > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
        > > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
        > > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
        > > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved only
        > > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
        > > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
        > > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
        > > them ...
        > >
        > > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
        > > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
        > > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
        > > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and eighty
        > > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even, and
        > > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been seen
        > > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
        > >
        > > "The agent appointed by the government of the
        > > United States to attend the national assembly of
        > > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
        > > Justice."
        > >
        > >
        > > Note 13
        > > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
        > > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
        > > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
        > > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
        > > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
        > >
        > > Note 14
        > > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
        > > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
        > > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
        > > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
        > >
        > > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
        > >
        > > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
        > > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
        > >
        > > thanks and be well,
        > > jmcjr
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
        > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
        > > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
        > > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
        > > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
        > > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like
        > than
        > > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
        > > >
        > > > stan
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • james m. clark jr.
        Re: Shedding some water 8:41 a.m.? Heck I sent the last message around 3:00 am I had an unusual dream which is rare that wakened me this morn at 7:57. I heard
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 11 10:07 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Re: Shedding some water

          8:41 a.m.? Heck I sent the last message around 3:00 am

          I had an unusual dream which is rare that wakened me this morn at
          7:57. I heard the knock of what I thought was a large door knock on
          my door, which would have been an unusual late-for-work nightmare for
          today even, but it was rather a deep sound of the drum or large door
          in Ancient Ireland I guess.

          At any rate, I do believe Susan stated something about an underground
          lake in message #146. I wasn't aware of an underground lake in
          Georgia but there is (although I was aware of no natural lakes in
          Georgia much later)until last year along with a few other things or
          rather Q&A's related to them that concerned me or at least an update
          would be good.

          On another note, according to Cherokee Native author Dhyani Ywahoo
          she connects the Principal Peoples with the Mayans (or at least a few
          Cherokee's with Histoy Majors with the Moundbuilder culture)which
          also may be taken into consideration at Ocmulgee & sites in Ill., as
          far as a gathering marsh method used just as the Mayans did perhaps
          even from other selected areas of marsh that wasn't near the Old
          Field's (ONM) if a low degree of infestation wasn't present in the
          vegatation (which may not be to long before this theory flies out the
          window).

          It would certainly be worth looking into as far as geological & [if
          any]archeological data of these underground lakes in general to see
          if there is some common thread regardless of theoretical dates and
          age.

          Just recently (news within a year or two)as far 3 archeological sites
          here at Ocmulgee planed to be destroyed; last year the army corp of
          engineers oked an unusually long 50 yr contract to dig clay out of
          Bond Swamp in the vicinity of Ocmulgee National Monument. The irony
          in this is that the local Cherokee Brick & Tile company waited until
          Chief Ellis of the Creek Nation approved the Eizenhower Parkway
          Highway project plans that would cut right through Ocmulgee National
          Monument that has been a debate since around 1937.

          The last I heard of the underground lake in Texas (late 80's -'92),
          if I recall correctly, supplied much of the water for Az. & Cal. It
          was estamated to disapate give or take a few years rage sometime by
          2015 (?) according to the sources of u.s. cencered programs list (of
          bbc's?)"Beyond 2000" that use to come on the Discovery Channel.

          Lake Shasta now is taking much of that toll. Plans to raise the Damn
          a mere 6 inches will flood the only remaining land of these Native
          peoples near Lake Shasta. Plans to Destoy existing damns in the NE
          will also indanger varies tribal lands such as Massachuset if I'm not
          mistaken.

          be well,
          jamey







          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,
          >
          > Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
          > Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
          > please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.
          >
          > Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from
          that
          > are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?
          >
          > It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami
          Circle".
          > I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
          > nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists
          started
          > the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
          > bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
          > investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
          > from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
          > country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
          > around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
          > blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
          > with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
          > post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.
          >
          > Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
          > and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
          > this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
          > Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a
          number
          > of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
          > and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
          > matter.
          >
          > My role in the several years I have been interested in things
          ancient
          > has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
          > groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly
          weak
          > in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on
          archaeology,
          > and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to
          the
          > rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget
          are
          > in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since
          school
          > until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics
          to
          > seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from
          the
          > many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
          > as I enter more into semi-retirement.
          >
          > Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
          > multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
          > thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
          > group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
          > researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
          > sites.
          >
          > Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
          > started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
          > ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
          > member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's
          personal
          > note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:
          >
          > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/
          >
          > I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the
          Grreat
          > Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
          > into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
          > continuously.
          >
          > Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen
          to
          > your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
          > interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
          > few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.
          >
          > Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the
          intimacy
          > of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.
          >
          > Cordially,
          > M. Susan English
          > http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
          > clark jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post
          holes
          > at
          > > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that
          hadn't
          > > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
          > > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
          > >
          > > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
          > >
          > > however...
          > >
          > > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
          > > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
          > > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
          > > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
          > > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility
          is
          > > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
          > > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
          > >
          > > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
          > > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
          > > (1969):365-75.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
          > >
          > > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
          > > suggests
          > >
          > > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
          > >
          > > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
          > but
          > > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A
          short
          > > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
          > > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
          > already
          > > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest
          that
          > > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
          > Greeks
          > > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten
          from
          > a
          > > modern perspective.
          > >
          > > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met
          the
          > > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
          > the
          > > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
          > > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
          > >
          > > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his
          map
          > > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than
          I
          > > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along
          the
          > > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
          > >
          > > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
          > > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
          > they
          > > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
          > pdf
          > > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)
          because
          > > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
          > > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about
          the
          > > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
          > > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
          > > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
          > now
          > > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
          > > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which
          is
          > > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
          > >
          > > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
          > >
          > > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
          > > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use
          to
          > > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
          > > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
          > > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
          > > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
          > > ethnologist.
          > >
          > > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
          > > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How
          they
          > > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is
          questionable
          > > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would
          indicate.
          > >
          > > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
          > 1937
          > > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
          > > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In
          the
          > > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
          > > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
          > >
          > > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take
          another
          > 20
          > > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
          > >
          > > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been
          known
          > > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
          > > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated
          along
          > > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
          > > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
          > the
          > > Northwest corner of Ga.
          > >
          > > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
          > >
          > > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
          > > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
          > > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
          > > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
          > > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
          > > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
          > > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
          > > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
          > > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved
          only
          > > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
          > > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
          > > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
          > > them ...
          > >
          > > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
          > > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
          > > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
          > > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and
          eighty
          > > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even,
          and
          > > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been
          seen
          > > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
          > >
          > > "The agent appointed by the government of the
          > > United States to attend the national assembly of
          > > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
          > > Justice."
          > >
          > >
          > > Note 13
          > > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
          > > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
          > > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
          > > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
          > > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
          > >
          > > Note 14
          > > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
          > > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
          > > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
          > > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
          > >
          > > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
          > >
          > > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
          > > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
          > >
          > > thanks and be well,
          > > jmcjr
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
          > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a
          tool? I
          > > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just
          above
          > > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving
          or
          > > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
          > > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-
          like
          > than
          > > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
          > > >
          > > > stan
          > > >
          > >
          >
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