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A little Photo info on Basalt artifact added to ancient_waterways_society

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  • james m. clark jr.
    A little Photo info on Basalt artifact added to ancient_waterways_society This image is intended for Humanitarian needs only as a tool for Native American
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 5, 2007
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      A little Photo info on Basalt artifact added to ancient_waterways_society

      This image is intended for Humanitarian needs only
      as a tool for Native American Awareness programs.


      In 2002 I took barely took notice of this obsure artifact and tried to
      ignore it otherwise, and even tried to leave it out of my mind for
      about 6 months. At the time I start asking questions in late '02 early
      2003 a A friend that use to live down the road was a gold prospecter
      and he said it was basalt which was what Dr. Joe Watkins confirmed
      that it was 3 months later that year, and about the only thing he
      could really say in his professional opinion. The smile on his face
      was good enough for me

      Prior to being invited to a lecture the only thing that came up as far
      as basalt artifacts in the southeastern U.S. was the anouncment of
      Miami's Mystery circle in which PBS would take a few years to document
      this. In this circle of post holes at the mouth of the Miami River was
      found a somewhat bleached basalt axe head. The post holes were said to
      be for a raised platform for a temporary shelter or outpost of the
      Calusa yet based a Tiucuan structure in northern Fla.

      At any rate, after determining where the likely location was that this
      axe head came from which was estimated to be in only 2 probable
      locations in Georgia; one in northern Georgia, and the other in Macon
      where the only remaining circular mound still exist in all of North
      America.

      The Tima lady that was kind enough to loan this to me did not even
      want pictures taken as it is considered a sacred object; luckly I had
      a cheep camera. other photos I wish I could show; namely the flat oval
      shape on the back where it had been mounted to a post or handle,
      because of one little sliver in which to me indicated craftmanship of
      a smith.

      may be more later (in which I haven't completed or edited what I had
      started.

      note: the PBS transcript should be at PBS or nova

      be well,
      jamey
    • minnesotastan
      Wouldn t basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I think on the Moh s scale it s typically only a 4 or so, just above limestone. The softness
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 5, 2007
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        Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
        think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
        limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
        shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
        attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like than
        tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.

        stan
      • james m. clark jr.
        The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes at the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn t been used, sorry I
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 5, 2007
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          The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes at
          the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn't
          been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
          determined a certainty I wouldn't know.

          I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all

          however...

          "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
          evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
          into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
          centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
          this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility is
          that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
          Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298

          note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
          "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
          (1969):365-75.



          In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)

          Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
          suggests

          "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."

          The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is but
          I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A short
          staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
          stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in already
          worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest that
          they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the Greeks
          didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten from a
          modern perspective.

          Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met the
          Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that the
          Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
          Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).

          Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his map
          suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than I
          would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along the
          Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.

          As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
          square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much they
          would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia pdf
          file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)because
          no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
          with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about the
          present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
          Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
          Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is now
          nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
          Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which is
          in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.

          http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm

          Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
          Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use to
          call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
          by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
          buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
          know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
          ethnologist.

          According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
          woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How they
          can say this without anything but rocks left behind is questionable
          and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would indicate.

          Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around 1937
          and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
          used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In the
          Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
          platform is a falcon 18 years later!

          I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take another 20
          years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.

          I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been known
          about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
          relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated along
          this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
          in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in the
          Northwest corner of Ga.

          Gazette of France April 24, 1802

          "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
          proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
          in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
          every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
          cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
          no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
          indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
          realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
          the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved only
          reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
          villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
          last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
          them ...

          "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
          that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
          spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
          hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and eighty
          spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even, and
          not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been seen
          making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.

          "The agent appointed by the government of the
          United States to attend the national assembly of
          the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
          Justice."


          Note 13
          Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
          Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
          It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
          VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
          and was abolished September 9, 1805.

          Note 14
          This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
          United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
          of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
          Hawkins, Indian Agent.

          "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."

          The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
          MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.

          thanks and be well,
          jmcjr



          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
          <minnesotastan@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
          > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
          > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
          > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
          > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like than
          > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
          >
          > stan
          >
        • Susan
          Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All, Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt. Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 6, 2007
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            Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,

            Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
            Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
            please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.

            Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from that
            are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?

            It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami Circle".
            I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
            nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists started
            the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
            bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
            investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
            from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
            country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
            around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
            blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
            with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
            post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.

            Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
            and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
            this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
            Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a number
            of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
            and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
            matter.

            My role in the several years I have been interested in things ancient
            has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
            groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly weak
            in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on archaeology,
            and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to the
            rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget are
            in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since school
            until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics to
            seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from the
            many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
            as I enter more into semi-retirement.

            Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
            multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
            thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
            group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
            researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
            sites.

            Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
            started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
            ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
            member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's personal
            note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:

            http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/

            I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the Grreat
            Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
            into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
            continuously.

            Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen to
            your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
            interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
            few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.

            Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the intimacy
            of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.

            Cordially,
            M. Susan English
            http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
            clark jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
            >
            > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes
            at
            > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn't
            > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
            > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
            >
            > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
            >
            > however...
            >
            > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
            > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
            > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
            > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
            > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility is
            > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
            > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
            >
            > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
            > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
            > (1969):365-75.
            >
            >
            >
            > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
            >
            > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
            > suggests
            >
            > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
            >
            > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
            but
            > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A short
            > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
            > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
            already
            > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest that
            > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
            Greeks
            > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten from
            a
            > modern perspective.
            >
            > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met the
            > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
            the
            > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
            > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
            >
            > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his map
            > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than I
            > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along the
            > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
            >
            > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
            > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
            they
            > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
            pdf
            > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)because
            > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
            > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about the
            > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
            > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
            > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
            now
            > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
            > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which is
            > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
            >
            > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
            >
            > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
            > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use to
            > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
            > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
            > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
            > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
            > ethnologist.
            >
            > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
            > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How they
            > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is questionable
            > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would indicate.
            >
            > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
            1937
            > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
            > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In the
            > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
            > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
            >
            > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take another
            20
            > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
            >
            > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been known
            > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
            > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated along
            > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
            > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
            the
            > Northwest corner of Ga.
            >
            > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
            >
            > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
            > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
            > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
            > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
            > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
            > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
            > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
            > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
            > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved only
            > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
            > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
            > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
            > them ...
            >
            > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
            > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
            > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
            > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and eighty
            > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even, and
            > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been seen
            > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
            >
            > "The agent appointed by the government of the
            > United States to attend the national assembly of
            > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
            > Justice."
            >
            >
            > Note 13
            > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
            > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
            > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
            > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
            > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
            >
            > Note 14
            > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
            > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
            > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
            > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
            >
            > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
            >
            > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
            > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
            >
            > thanks and be well,
            > jmcjr
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
            > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
            > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
            > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
            > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
            > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like
            than
            > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
            > >
            > > stan
            > >
            >
          • james m. clark jr.
            Hi Susan, all hammerstones? Ok I guess you may have thought that the same artifact at AWS/my profile was worked with a hammer, right? No, I don t think it was
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 6, 2007
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              Hi Susan, all

              hammerstones? Ok I guess you may have thought that the same artifact
              at AWS/my profile was worked with a hammer, right? No, I don't think
              it was worked with a hammer, but the impression of the oval is more
              like a flat sword or knife-like implement. I haven't thought about it
              until now, but it would be interesting to look at hardware that
              Desoto's men may have had posessions of at that time.

              As far as I know the Tima woman still has it; it was a birthday gift
              from her father and they both still live here. As a tool, it appears
              to have been used for grinding something on a very flat surface on one
              side it's as flat as a table surface and smooth as the finish.

              be well,
              jamey


              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,
              >
              > Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
              > Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
              > please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.
              >
              > Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from that
              > are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?
              >
              > It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami Circle".
              > I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
              > nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists started
              > the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
              > bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
              > investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
              > from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
              > country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
              > around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
              > blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
              > with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
              > post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.
              >
              > Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
              > and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
              > this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
              > Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a number
              > of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
              > and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
              > matter.
              >
              > My role in the several years I have been interested in things ancient
              > has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
              > groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly weak
              > in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on archaeology,
              > and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to the
              > rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget are
              > in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since school
              > until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics to
              > seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from the
              > many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
              > as I enter more into semi-retirement.
              >
              > Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
              > multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
              > thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
              > group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
              > researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
              > sites.
              >
              > Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
              > started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
              > ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
              > member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's personal
              > note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:
              >
              > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/
              >
              > I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the Grreat
              > Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
              > into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
              > continuously.
              >
              > Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen to
              > your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
              > interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
              > few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.
              >
              > Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the intimacy
              > of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.
              >
              > Cordially,
              > M. Susan English
              > http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
              > clark jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post holes
              > at
              > > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that hadn't
              > > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
              > > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
              > >
              > > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
              > >
              > > however...
              > >
              > > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
              > > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
              > > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
              > > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
              > > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility is
              > > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
              > > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
              > >
              > > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
              > > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
              > > (1969):365-75.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
              > >
              > > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
              > > suggests
              > >
              > > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
              > >
              > > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
              > but
              > > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A short
              > > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
              > > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
              > already
              > > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest that
              > > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
              > Greeks
              > > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten from
              > a
              > > modern perspective.
              > >
              > > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met the
              > > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
              > the
              > > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
              > > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
              > >
              > > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his map
              > > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than I
              > > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along the
              > > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
              > >
              > > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
              > > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
              > they
              > > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
              > pdf
              > > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)because
              > > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
              > > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about the
              > > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
              > > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
              > > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
              > now
              > > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
              > > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which is
              > > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
              > >
              > > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
              > >
              > > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
              > > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use to
              > > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
              > > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
              > > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
              > > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
              > > ethnologist.
              > >
              > > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
              > > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How they
              > > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is questionable
              > > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would indicate.
              > >
              > > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
              > 1937
              > > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
              > > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In the
              > > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
              > > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
              > >
              > > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take another
              > 20
              > > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
              > >
              > > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been known
              > > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
              > > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated along
              > > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
              > > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
              > the
              > > Northwest corner of Ga.
              > >
              > > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
              > >
              > > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
              > > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
              > > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
              > > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
              > > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
              > > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
              > > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
              > > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
              > > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved only
              > > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
              > > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
              > > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
              > > them ...
              > >
              > > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
              > > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
              > > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
              > > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and eighty
              > > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even, and
              > > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been seen
              > > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
              > >
              > > "The agent appointed by the government of the
              > > United States to attend the national assembly of
              > > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
              > > Justice."
              > >
              > >
              > > Note 13
              > > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
              > > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
              > > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
              > > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
              > > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
              > >
              > > Note 14
              > > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
              > > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
              > > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
              > > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
              > >
              > > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
              > >
              > > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
              > > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
              > >
              > > thanks and be well,
              > > jmcjr
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
              > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a tool? I
              > > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just above
              > > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving or
              > > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
              > > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-like
              > than
              > > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
              > > >
              > > > stan
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • james m. clark jr.
              Re: Shedding some water 8:41 a.m.? Heck I sent the last message around 3:00 am I had an unusual dream which is rare that wakened me this morn at 7:57. I heard
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 11, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Re: Shedding some water

                8:41 a.m.? Heck I sent the last message around 3:00 am

                I had an unusual dream which is rare that wakened me this morn at
                7:57. I heard the knock of what I thought was a large door knock on
                my door, which would have been an unusual late-for-work nightmare for
                today even, but it was rather a deep sound of the drum or large door
                in Ancient Ireland I guess.

                At any rate, I do believe Susan stated something about an underground
                lake in message #146. I wasn't aware of an underground lake in
                Georgia but there is (although I was aware of no natural lakes in
                Georgia much later)until last year along with a few other things or
                rather Q&A's related to them that concerned me or at least an update
                would be good.

                On another note, according to Cherokee Native author Dhyani Ywahoo
                she connects the Principal Peoples with the Mayans (or at least a few
                Cherokee's with Histoy Majors with the Moundbuilder culture)which
                also may be taken into consideration at Ocmulgee & sites in Ill., as
                far as a gathering marsh method used just as the Mayans did perhaps
                even from other selected areas of marsh that wasn't near the Old
                Field's (ONM) if a low degree of infestation wasn't present in the
                vegatation (which may not be to long before this theory flies out the
                window).

                It would certainly be worth looking into as far as geological & [if
                any]archeological data of these underground lakes in general to see
                if there is some common thread regardless of theoretical dates and
                age.

                Just recently (news within a year or two)as far 3 archeological sites
                here at Ocmulgee planed to be destroyed; last year the army corp of
                engineers oked an unusually long 50 yr contract to dig clay out of
                Bond Swamp in the vicinity of Ocmulgee National Monument. The irony
                in this is that the local Cherokee Brick & Tile company waited until
                Chief Ellis of the Creek Nation approved the Eizenhower Parkway
                Highway project plans that would cut right through Ocmulgee National
                Monument that has been a debate since around 1937.

                The last I heard of the underground lake in Texas (late 80's -'92),
                if I recall correctly, supplied much of the water for Az. & Cal. It
                was estamated to disapate give or take a few years rage sometime by
                2015 (?) according to the sources of u.s. cencered programs list (of
                bbc's?)"Beyond 2000" that use to come on the Discovery Channel.

                Lake Shasta now is taking much of that toll. Plans to raise the Damn
                a mere 6 inches will flood the only remaining land of these Native
                peoples near Lake Shasta. Plans to Destoy existing damns in the NE
                will also indanger varies tribal lands such as Massachuset if I'm not
                mistaken.

                be well,
                jamey







                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jamey, Rick, Stan, and All,
                >
                > Interesting photo, Jamey, and comment from Stan about basalt.
                > Anything further on the basalt artifact, Miami and Georgia sites,
                > please keep us posted. Thank you for the photo and link.
                >
                > Speaking of stones, Jamey, where are the rock hammerstones from
                that
                > are in the photo your Profile at left of the Home Page?
                >
                > It was of special interest for me to hear more on the "Miami
                Circle".
                > I may have mentioned here or another site that I was on location
                > nearly a week at the Miami location soon after archeologists
                started
                > the dig. A fence was erected around the site because of so many
                > bystanders, though the assistant archaeologist to the lead
                > investigator came over often to update bystanders. Various shamen
                > from Central America, lay persons and scientiests from about the
                > country and Mexico were among the crowd; more than a few camped out
                > around the fence. I stayed at a cheap, scarey downtown hotel a few
                > blocks away. The areas surrounding the dig site site became festive
                > with ceremonies. music, banners, talks, etc. The beginnings of the
                > post holes started appearing about the time I was leaving.
                >
                > Thanks for sharing well-presented research you have been gathering
                > and contemplating on a variety of subjects, Jamey, and all; we hope
                > this site will be around as long as we are. Sometimes Ancient
                > Waterways may be dormant for a time, but I like to throw in a
                number
                > of posts related to ancient, global waterways for future reference
                > and access. Posts could later be categorized according to subject
                > matter.
                >
                > My role in the several years I have been interested in things
                ancient
                > has mainly been trying to make small interconnections of related
                > groups and friendly correspondants. Otherwise, am embarrassingly
                weak
                > in regard to US and world history. Had a few classes on
                archaeology,
                > and the farther back in time (my current preferences aim prior to
                the
                > rise of nation states and writing/scriptures which people forget
                are
                > in "human" languages). I haven't done a lot of research since
                school
                > until lately; have been hitting the books delving into the basics
                to
                > seek to understand some of the questions, ideas, data coming from
                the
                > many sites such as this of which I am a member. May find time later
                > as I enter more into semi-retirement.
                >
                > Mike White is also a member of our Waterways site as well as a
                > multitude of others. At times we are inactive here and he might
                > thus not often 'tune in' to posts. I hope you will also send the PI
                > group of nearly 250 members a few of your fine ideas and well-
                > researched posts. A number of us here are members of several
                > sites.
                >
                > Steven Hilgren who was writing posts to our site branched out and
                > started an Ancient Vikings in America message board several weeks
                > ago; they already have over thirty members. Rick, I know you are a
                > member. I believe think would be most interested in Jamey's
                personal
                > note in #126 post re: viking exploration. The Viking site is:
                >
                > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/
                >
                > I may also send part of your post w/reference to Egypt to the
                Grreat
                > Pyramid of Giza Research association Message Board if I can tie it
                > into one of the rather heady converstaions going on there
                > continuously.
                >
                > Rick, I have been working evenings and haven't been able to listen
                to
                > your new blog radio programs. Great idea and such a fine
                > interconnector you are! Pulled up the first show for only a
                > few mintues before audio went out. My computer is an older one.
                >
                > Thanks again, Stan for this Waterways site; nice to have the
                intimacy
                > of a smaller group, and sometimes this site can be quite busy.
                >
                > Cordially,
                > M. Susan English
                > http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
                > clark jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
                > >
                > > The bleached basalt axe head found within the circle of post
                holes
                > at
                > > the mouth of the Miami River was said to be an axe head that
                hadn't
                > > been used, sorry I didn't make that clear. But how that could be
                > > determined a certainty I wouldn't know.
                > >
                > > I would have to somewhat agree Stan, all
                > >
                > > however...
                > >
                > > "At Ocumulgee and two sites in Illinois archaeologists have found
                > > evidence of agricultural fields in which the topsoil was heaped up
                > > into parallel ridges. At Ocmulgee these ridges were about 20
                > > centimeters high and 30 to 50 centimeters apart. The advantages of
                > > this type of cultivation are not well understood. One possibility
                is
                > > that it may have been an adaptation to water-logged soil."
                > > Southeastern Indians, by Charles Hudson (1976),page 298
                > >
                > > note 106 -- Melvin Flanders,
                > > "Middle Mississippian Agricultual Fields," American Antiquity 34
                > > (1969):365-75.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > In Time Life Books, Eastern Woodlands (1994)
                > >
                > > Theodore de Bry's 1564 engraving of a Timucuan village and field,
                > > suggests
                > >
                > > "...furrows are fanciful touch by the European artist."
                > >
                > > The engraving could be a european idea and I would say that it is
                > but
                > > I can't rule this out as nearly everyone else I assume has. A
                short
                > > staff is depicted to make the holes for the seeds. I would think a
                > > stick could have made such small simple furrows [especially in
                > already
                > > worked soil with traditional yet natural tools] but to suggest
                that
                > > they did not do this at all, is basically like saying that the
                > Greeks
                > > didn't know there own history allowing history to be rewritten
                from
                > a
                > > modern perspective.
                > >
                > > Theory based on one basalt artifact and the fact that Desoto met
                the
                > > Timucua as well as the unrecorded fact (until just recently) that
                > the
                > > Fort Hawkins trading post is within 500 yards of Ocmulgee National
                > > Monument and it was Desoto whom pass by Ocmulgee).
                > >
                > > Dr. Jerald T. Milanich (University of Flordia) according to his
                map
                > > suggesting the Timucua were rather close; closer to Okmulgee than
                I
                > > would have thought and as far north to the east-west banks along
                the
                > > Altamaha River of the southeastern Georgia flood plains.
                > >
                > > As for 1492, he suggests that 200,000 people lived within 19,200
                > > square miles at this time. As for the SGA I am not sure how much
                > they
                > > would agree with this map or figures. The (2001)SGA Early Georgia
                > pdf
                > > file does not mention the Timucuans at all (nor Fort Hawkins)
                because
                > > no emphisis on ethnology really. I had to go to Flordia-what is it
                > > with SGA? Not even in the 2005 UGA Ency. nothing is stated about
                the
                > > present state of the Yuchi, yet at least they do state that the
                > > Yuchi did travel along the fall line from Augusta to Columbus
                > > Georgia (nothing is stated about Yuchi Town where Fort Benning is
                > now
                > > nor the Federal U.S. gov. 1776 Yuchi Town Poster-(Yuchi are not
                > > Federally reconized because not one conflict with U.S. gov.)which
                is
                > > in the same path as Ocumulgee the Old Fields.
                > >
                > > http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/aucilla10_1/missions.htm
                > >
                > > Rock Eagle an "effigy mound", about 40 miles northeast of (toward
                > > Augasta) East-Macon Ga., the site of Fort Hawkins and what we use
                to
                > > call Indian Mounds locally. According to The Southeastern Indians,
                > > by Hudson, (1976) this bird shaped mound is either an "eagle or a
                > > buzzard" made in the Woodland tradition that "archaeologist didn't
                > > know what it was used for" -- THEN -- NOW, is another question of
                > > ethnologist.
                > >
                > > According to Time Life Books this is still considered to be the
                > > woodland period. An eagle is the so called educated guess. How
                they
                > > can say this without anything but rocks left behind is
                questionable
                > > and they are white in which I'm not certian what it would
                indicate.
                > >
                > > Also in Hudson's book, he states that this site was looted around
                > 1937
                > > and implies that the platform in the earth lodge at Ocmulgee later
                > > used by the Creeks is either the shape of a hawk or a Falcon. In
                the
                > > Southeastern Woodlands, by Time Life Books (1994), this earthern
                > > platform is a falcon 18 years later!
                > >
                > > I can only wonder if the evolution of Rock Eagle will take
                another
                > 20
                > > years to become Rock Falcon or Rock WoodPecker.
                > >
                > > I am not certian, but I woundn't think to much would have been
                known
                > > about bird migration in 1937 and it doesn't appear to have any
                > > relevance in so far by 1976 in the sciences. Falcons migrated
                along
                > > this route. In fact the Lamar site (Lamar pottery) was practically
                > > in the backyard of the Ocmulgee Mounds, concidering the Etowah in
                > the
                > > Northwest corner of Ga.
                > >
                > > Gazette of France April 24, 1802
                > >
                > > "Raising livestock appears to be part of the civilizing plan
                > > proposed to the Creeks which will experience the least difficulty
                > > in being carried out. Since the region they inhabit offers, in
                > > every season of the year, to horses as well to sheep and horned
                > > cattle, feed in abundance and excellent grazing grounds, they find
                > > no objection to cultivating this branch of rural economy and the
                > > indians, naturally lazy, readily accept ideas which are easy to
                > > realize. The inhabitants of several large villages, who exhausted
                > > the production of the neighboring soil by consumption, resolved
                only
                > > reluctantly to abandon them and settle down in scattered and small
                > > villages situated in more fertile regions; and, at the begining of
                > > last spring, seventy plows were procured and distributed among
                > > them ...
                > >
                > > "The introduction of industrial process ... experience has proved
                > > that ... women have made themselves more useful ... they went last
                > > spring to the agents of the English trading post to ask them for a
                > > hundred pairs of wire-toothed brushes for carding cotton and
                eighty
                > > spinning wheels, which were delivered immediately. Already even,
                and
                > > not without astonishment, the head of an Indian family has been
                seen
                > > making with his own hands a loom and two spinning wheels.
                > >
                > > "The agent appointed by the government of the
                > > United States to attend the national assembly of
                > > the Creeks will serve in the capasity of minister of
                > > Justice."
                > >
                > >
                > > Note 13
                > > Floreal was the eight month of the Revolutionary
                > > Calendar, formed by the French National Convention.
                > > It extended from April 21 to May 21 in the years
                > > VIII-XIII. The new reckonong began September 22,1792
                > > and was abolished September 9, 1805.
                > >
                > > Note 14
                > > This article no doubt referred to the work of Benjamin Hawkins.
                > > United States agent to the Creeks and General superintendant
                > > of the Indians south of the Ohio. See Merrill B. Pound, Benjamin
                > > Hawkins, Indian Agent.
                > >
                > > "They report that they have furnished plows and looms."
                > >
                > > The entire article is quoted by Louis Le Clerc Milfort in his
                > > MEMOIRS... pages 42-44.
                > >
                > > thanks and be well,
                > > jmcjr
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
                > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Wouldn't basalt be an unusually soft material to use as a
                tool? I
                > > > think on the Moh's scale it's typically only a 4 or so, just
                above
                > > > limestone. The softness would certainly facilitate the carving
                or
                > > > shaping of the item, but I would think it would be a detrimental
                > > > attribute for any type of tool. The photo looks more totem-
                like
                > than
                > > > tool-like. But I'll defer to anyone else.
                > > >
                > > > stan
                > > >
                > >
                >
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