Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ancient_waterways_society] a letter shedding + Mandans Done?

Expand Messages
  • TRAYLOROO
    Very interesting letter.  In particular the part about the Mandan Indians alerted me.  As I recall, their language and their appearance seemed to have a
    Message 1 of 7 , May 10, 2009
    • 0 Attachment

      Very interesting letter.  In particular the part about the Mandan Indians alerted me.  As I recall, their language and their appearance seemed to have a strong European root. I wonder if we could test that theory with a DNA test?
       
      For more information, enter in your search window  MANDAN INDIAN
       
      Cal
       
       
      ======================================
      From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] a letter shedding
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 9:17 AM

      I got this note from a teacher in Milwaukee  about a relative at the time of the event I have been writing about.  Ted

      My great-great grandfather was a German missionary named Ottmar Cloeter. Pastor Cloeter his wife and children (including my great grandmother Wilhelmina) were alerted of a Dakota attack. They were the only white family that survived Fort Ridgely. 
      Ottmar Cloeter translated the Bible into Chippewa. He was known to be a friend of the native people. They called him Pastor Bad Speaker not because he was bad, but because they thought German sounded so ugly. 
      Pastor Cloeter was the founding pastor of Concordia St. Paul. His life long love of the native Americans began when his parents sent him on a grand tour. He traveled with a painter to the Mandan country. Ottmar Cloeter vowed to return to America and donate his fortune Of course, when he returned, the Mandans were all gone from measles. 

      Elizabeth Getman
    • Ted Sojka
      Cal, I know one of the half dozen full bloods left of that tribe, who is a Supt. at Mount Rushmore. They have mixed with the Hidatsa. Their enemies were the
      Message 2 of 7 , May 10, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Cal,

        I know one of the half dozen full bloods left of that tribe, who is a Supt. at Mount Rushmore.   They have mixed with the Hidatsa.  Their enemies were the Arikaree and Ree's.    HIs great grandfather hosted Louis and Clark at his village for the Winter in the first year of their voyage West to the Pacific.    

        That ancestor got the pox and though very friendly to traders for years, wrote some pretty damning speeches on his way out of this world about our culture.  They tied their babies in trees in hopes of keeping them free of the disease.   

        The Mandans may have been related to the Ioway or Oneota, which were also called the People who made towns.  They were on the Mississippi River before 1600 and moved West to the Missouri as they were pressured by those who had traded with the Europeans who were pushing the fur trade West from the Great Lakes.

        Ted




      • TRAYLOROO
        Ted:   The only way to get DNA would be from a skeleton .... and I suspect there needs to be several skeletons just in case the first one was from an ethic
        Message 3 of 7 , May 10, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Ted:
           
          The only way to get DNA would be from a skeleton .... and I suspect there needs to be several skeletons just in case the first one was from an ethic mix.  The present laws are punitive to grave diggers who dig in certain places.  The living Amerindians may not object, or would they?  Even though the evidence may show the skeleton is from a European ....
           
          What is your opinion?
           
          Cal   TRAYLOROO@...  (not case sensitive)

           
           ====================================================
          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] a letter shedding + Mandans Done?
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:33 PM

          Cal,

          I know one of the half dozen full bloods left of that tribe, who is a Supt. at Mount Rushmore.   They have mixed with the Hidatsa.  Their enemies were the Arikaree and Ree's.    HIs great grandfather hosted Louis and Clark at his village for the Winter in the first year of their voyage West to the Pacific.    

          That ancestor got the pox and though very friendly to traders for years, wrote some pretty damning speeches on his way out of this world about our culture.  They tied their babies in trees in hopes of keeping them free of the disease.   

          The Mandans may have been related to the Ioway or Oneota, which were also called the People who made towns.  They were on the Mississippi River before 1600 and moved West to the Missouri as they were pressured by those who had traded with the Europeans who were pushing the fur trade West from the Great Lakes.

          Ted




        • judi_rudebusch
          Another very interesting read is the 1957 book by Henriette Mertz, The Nephatali . Her treatise showed strong relationships to early Israelite traditions.
          Message 4 of 7 , May 10, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Another very interesting read is the 1957 book by Henriette Mertz, " The Nephatali". Her treatise showed strong relationships to early Israelite traditions. Worth a read!



            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, TRAYLOROO <trayloroo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Very interesting letter.  In particular the part about the Mandan Indians alerted me.  As I recall, their language and their appearance seemed to have a strong European root. I wonder if we could test that theory with a DNA test?
            >  
            > For more information, enter in your search window  MANDAN INDIAN
            >  
            > Cal
            >
            >  
            >  
            > ======================================
            >
            > From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] a letter shedding
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 9:17 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I got this note from a teacher in Milwaukee  about a relative at the time of the event I have been writing about.  Ted
            >
            >
            > My great-great grandfather was a German missionary named Ottmar Cloeter. Pastor Cloeter his wife and children (including my great grandmother Wilhelmina) were alerted of a Dakota attack. They were the only white family that survived Fort Ridgely. 
            > Ottmar Cloeter translated the Bible into Chippewa. He was known to be a friend of the native people. They called him Pastor Bad Speaker not because he was bad, but because they thought German sounded so ugly. 
            > Pastor Cloeter was the founding pastor of Concordia St. Paul. His life long love of the native Americans began when his parents sent him on a grand tour. He traveled with a painter to the Mandan country. Ottmar Cloeter vowed to return to America and donate his fortune Of course, when he returned, the Mandans were all gone from measles. 
            >
            >
            >
            > Elizabeth Getman
            >
          • Ted Sojka
            Look at the fuss over the Kenniswick skeleton. 10,000 years old and maybe closer connected to Europeans than any others so far found. It is so sacred to
            Message 5 of 7 , May 10, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Look at the fuss over the Kenniswick skeleton.   10,000 years old and maybe closer connected to Europeans than any others so far found.   It is so sacred to the first nations that they had to make a stand.  The Sioux remember people going to places like wounded knee to gather "specimens" from the mass grave only recently closed.  

              The native people I know here are of a belief that once a body is in the ground, it is in heaven or paradise.  To move or disturb the remains is like making that spirit that is resting comfortably in eternity, to go to hell.  Even when tossed out my a mud slide and dumped on a road by a accident of nature, a ceremony is necessary.  A reburial with all bases covered, is believed to help the departed but it is not for sure.  

              I have my own beliefs on the matter and one man's religion is another's superstition.

              We have tens of thousands of skeletons in museums, Universities, and thousands have been repatriated.  There are more than enough for Science.  Most of the 1930's phrenologists were influenced by even the same fellows that influenced Adolf during that time.  Look what that disrespect for life caused.  

              Look what trouble this culture goes through to get the remains of soldiers back to this country from foreign wars.   The Japanese consider it a duty to do the same, and if not to return with the remains of some lost relative on an atoll somewhere in the Pacific, at least honor them at or near the site with proper ceremony.

              The 1950 NAGPRA law was toughened a bit by the outgoing Clinton administration, but grave robbing still goes on in parts of the country.  A Cherokee woman wrote me that a fellow in Tennessee near where she lives takes money to let souvenir hunters dig in mounds on his property.  I would not like it if someone excavated my Mother's grave to take a wedding band for a souvenir or to sell it at a flea market.  

              A friend witnessed a burial of sorts in Nepal.  The body was taken to a high rock promontory.  The priests cut the body into pieces and the buzzards carried them away.  They believe it takes the spirit to the heavens.  

              What are your thoughts?
              ted

              On May 10, 2009, at 5:59 PM, TRAYLOROO wrote:




              Ted:
               
              The only way to get DNA would be from a skeleton .... and I suspect there needs to be several skeletons just in case the first one was from an ethic mix.  The present laws are punitive to grave diggers who dig in certain places.  The living Amerindians may not object, or would they?  Even though the evidence may show the skeleton is from a European ....
               
              What is your opinion?
               
              Cal   TRAYLOROO@YAHOO. COM  (not case sensitive)

               
               ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] a letter shedding + Mandans Done?
              To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:33 PM

              Cal,

              I know one of the half dozen full bloods left of that tribe, who is a Supt. at Mount Rushmore.   They have mixed with the Hidatsa.  Their enemies were the Arikaree and Ree's.    HIs great grandfather hosted Louis and Clark at his village for the Winter in the first year of their voyage West to the Pacific.    

              That ancestor got the pox and though very friendly to traders for years, wrote some pretty damning speeches on his way out of this world about our culture.  They tied their babies in trees in hopes of keeping them free of the disease.   

              The Mandans may have been related to the Ioway or Oneota, which were also called the People who made towns.  They were on the Mississippi River before 1600 and moved West to the Missouri as they were pressured by those who had traded with the Europeans who were pushing the fur trade West from the Great Lakes.

              Ted






            • TRAYLOROO
                Ted:   Maybe the buzzard idea is modernized for my belief.  Take my body parts and help the living improve their life.  Thus I live on.    Two of us
              Message 6 of 7 , May 10, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                 
                Ted:
                 
                Maybe the buzzard idea is modernized for my belief.  Take my body parts and help the living improve their life.  Thus I live on. 
                 
                Two of us 90-ish widowers had dinner today ... at 3:00.  (Two meals a day is enough now that we no longer plow the field.)  We talked about stem cells, advances by the medics during our life time, and the possibility some day of them being able to transplant our brain into a new body .... so we could live a full life again.  Just think:  Able to be a new-born in a new body with all that knowledge for starters, virile, handsome, charming. 
                 
                He is a Ph.D. of history and never forgets one thing he reads or where he read it.  Envy envy envy ....
                 
                Your philosophy as you mention below about my superstition is some other person's religion;  to that I will tip a glass ... I endorse ....
                 
                My Grandfather said little prayer before every meal, not sure but what he really meant it for the listeners at the table:  "Oh Lord, forgive us our trespasses for we meant not."   I would say "trespassing" causes more trouble.  At Ayers Rock I met a traveling lecturer from America ... and that was her subject ... and being paid to travel the world to tell the audience ... Don't Trespass ...
                 
                 Cal

                I have enjoyed your letters ... Great stuff ... My other friend is a retired English prof with a mind like #1 friend above, and friend #2 would flunk me if I used a four letter word, especially that one ...
                 
                 
                 
                 =========================================
                From: Ted N>Sojka
                <tedsojka@...>
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Burials
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:43 PM

                Look at the fuss over the Kenniswick skeleton.   10,000 years old and maybe closer connected to Europeans than any others so far found.   It is so sacred to the first nations that they had to make a stand.  The Sioux remember people going to places like wounded knee to gather "specimens" from the mass grave only recently closed.  

                The native people I know here are of a belief that once a body is in the ground, it is in heaven or paradise.  To move or disturb the remains is like making that spirit that is resting comfortably in eternity, to go to hell.  Even when tossed out my a mud slide and dumped on a road by a accident of nature, a ceremony is necessary.  A reburial with all bases covered, is believed to help the departed but it is not for sure.  

                I have my own beliefs on the matter and one man's religion is another's superstition.

                We have tens of thousands of skeletons in museums, Universities, and thousands have been repatriated.  There are more than enough for Science.  Most of the 1930's phrenologists were influenced by even the same fellows that influenced Adolf during that time.  Look what that disrespect for life caused.  

                Look what trouble this culture goes through to get the remains of soldiers back to this country from foreign wars.   The Japanese consider it a duty to do the same, and if not to return with the remains of some lost relative on an atoll somewhere in the Pacific, at least honor them at or near the site with proper ceremony.

                The 1950 NAGPRA law was toughened a bit by the outgoing Clinton administration, but grave robbing still goes on in parts of the country.  A Cherokee woman wrote me that a fellow in Tennessee near where she lives takes money to let souvenir hunters dig in mounds on his property.  I would not like it if someone excavated my Mother's grave to take a wedding band for a souvenir or to sell it at a flea market.  

                A friend witnessed a burial of sorts in Nepal.  The body was taken to a high rock promontory.  The priests cut the body into pieces and the buzzards carried them away.  They believe it takes the spirit to the heavens.  

                What are your thoughts?
                ted

                On May 10, 2009, at 5:59 PM, TRAYLOROO wrote:




                Ted:
                 
                The only way to get DNA would be from a skeleton .... and I suspect there needs to be several skeletons just in case the first one was from an ethic mix.  The present laws are punitive to grave diggers who dig in certain places.  The living Amerindians may not object, or would they?  Even though the evidence may show the skeleton is from a European ....
                 
                What is your opinion?
                 
                Cal   TRAYLOROO@YAHOO. COM  (not case sensitive)

                 
                 ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] a letter shedding + Mandans Done?
                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:33 PM

                Cal,

                I know one of the half dozen full bloods left of that tribe, who is a Supt. at Mount Rushmore.   They have mixed with the Hidatsa.  Their enemies were the Arikaree and Ree's.    HIs great grandfather hosted Louis and Clark at his village for the Winter in the first year of their voyage West to the Pacific.    

                That ancestor got the pox and though very friendly to traders for years, wrote some pretty damning speeches on his way out of this world about our culture.  They tied their babies in trees in hopes of keeping them free of the disease.   

                The Mandans may have been related to the Ioway or Oneota, which were also called the People who made towns.  They were on the Mississippi River before 1600 and moved West to the Missouri as they were pressured by those who had traded with the Europeans who were pushing the fur trade West from the Great Lakes.

                Ted






              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.