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Roman Coins Found, Midwest Epigraphic Society, Fred Rydholm and Diffusion Museum

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  • ancientwaterpathways
    Cal, Ted, Stan, Chris, all, I ve been following with much interest the reports on this site and especially wanted to comment on posts of May 2, 2009.
    Message 1 of 6 , May 3 5:45 PM
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      Cal, Ted, Stan, Chris, all,

      I've been following with much interest the reports on this site and especially wanted to comment on posts of May 2, 2009.

      Concerning Roman coins found in the Louisville, KY area—a new hoard, eight coins, was found by David Wells using a metal detector along the Ohio River about three months ago. I have interviewed Wells and have photographed the coins and written an article about them for an upcoming Ancient American Magazine.

      Stan, I've gone to your blogspot and read some comments concerning the coins found earlier here (during the building of the Sherman Minton Bridge between Louisville, KY and New Albany, IN, this in 1963). These were found by an engineer who gave a couple of the coins to another engineer, and the second engineer's widow donated those two coins to the Falls of the Ohio Interpretive Center. They were the coins the state policy makers did, indeed, have removed from display. The Falls still has the two coins, but they are no longer on display.

      A similar thing happened which I mentioned earlier on this site. This concerned the "Brandenburg Stone." There is a photo of the stone on file at this site. Several of us worked very hard getting this stone secured and placed in the Falls Interpretive Center (in a beautiful case which we paid to have built). The stone has some kind of inscription on it (go to the Ancient Waterways photo files and judge for yourself). The powers that be had this stone removed from the Interpretive Center because "we can't exhibit something that is not proven."

      If anyone at Ancient Waterways wants to see the stone, I'll be happy to guide you to the new location, but it is not, unfortunately, at the Falls of the Ohio Interpretive Center. So I know "things are sometimes removed from public viewing when they don't match up with `accepted' paradigm."

      Back to the Roman coins. One of the eight coins in the David Wells Collection is of the same emperor—Claudius II—as one of the Falls' coins. The Falls' coins were found when a pier was being dug for the Sherman Minton Bridge; the new-found coins were "three to four inches deep in the sand along the river bank." The new hoard was found approximately 18 miles east of the Sherman Minton Bridge site.

      Also, coin # 8 of the Fred Kingman collection (see James P. Scherz's Fred Kingman's ROMAN-STYLE COINS—Reportedly Found Along the Wisconsin River in the 1970's; the report is available from Ancient American Magazine) is also of Claudius II.

      Now I know, as everyone else knows, that Roman coins are easy to come by, and the typical response is: "these were lost by collectors."

      Well, that may be the case. But it seems odd to me that collectors would be so narrow in their collections (the different coins reportedly found all appear to fall in a rather narrow time frame) and that the collectors would be so careless.

      Does this make sense? A collector gets the coins and then loses two sets on the Ohio River and another set on the Wisconsin River. Also, we have three different find sites with each set containing a coin of the same emperor. Claudius II had a very short reign--268-270 AD.

      The real problem is this: since the standard paradigm says that no one was in the Americas other than Asians before Columbus, all evidence must be molded to fit the paradigm. Even Asians are not granted the possibility of later voyages here in the past few thousand years. Any evidence suggesting foreign travelers came here is approached with the attitude that it must be false simply because it's not possible; therefore, whatever hypothesis concerning new evidence must prove the evidence is false simply because "it could not have happened." This often results in good, honest people, who've made legitimate discoveries, being branded as liars and hoaxers. That, I feel, is very sad. Also, I keep hearing the comment "there's not a single thread of evidence that any foreign travelers came here before Columbus." Of course, there's not a single thread of evidence if none of the evidence can even be considered.


      Cal, some comments on the Midwest Epigraphic Society. Also, some thoughts on a diffusion museum.

      On April 25 I was at the Midwest Epigraphic Society Spring Symposium in Columbus, OH, where I presented JoLe Productions' most recent film, Let Me Not Drown on the Waters: Fred Rydholm, Michigan's "Mr. Copper." Fred was presented posthumously the Barry Fell Award, the highest award given by the group. Beverly Moseley was at the Symposium. The MES was one of the early, if not the earliest, epigraphic branches founded from Dr. Fell's western group (ESOP). Bev's brother, Victor Moseley, founded the MES group, and Bev kept it going following Victor's death. Bev Moseley designed many museums in Ohio, West Virginia, Indiana, and Illinois (including the great museum at Cahokia, and the Falls of the Ohio Interpretive Center, as you've mentioned).

      It was Fred Rydholm's idea to establish a museum for diffusionist artifacts and writings. Fred wanted the museum located in the Keewanaw of the UP of Michigan where so many of the ancient copper mines are located. Fred said there were 40,000 to 50,000 ancient pits on the Keewanaw alone. Thousands of tons of copper were mined from these pits between 5,000 BC and 1,500 BC. And Fred said that the largest amount of copper available was not located in the mines but was massive float copper nuggets.

      The Smithsonian has one such nugget, the Ontonagon Boulder, which weighs about a ton and a half. Fred was introduced to a piece of float copper by some men who had located the boulder with metal detectors in the Keewanaw. The piece weighs an estimated 40 to 70 tons! The Ancient Artifacts Preservation Society (AAAPF.org) raised $10,000 for a down payment on this piece of float copper (The total price for this massive boulder is $350,000; the owners are also including in the price 40 acres of land where the copper is located). Fred felt the museum should be located where the copper boulder was found.

      The AAPS now is in the process of attempting to raise the other $340,000 for this float copper (which is the largest known piece in the world). It was Fred's idea that the copper would be the "show piece" in the proposed diffusion museum and would be placed at the entrance. So, Cal, there is a group attempting to raise funds to establish a diffusion museum. It was Fred Rydholm's dream, and many of us are working toward his dream and hoping it will come true.

      I've tried to think of an idea that would, through a ground swell, raise the funds. I've thought if enough people would donate their jars of pennies so many of us have hanging around (copper for Mr. Copper), enough funds could be raised. Who knows?

      Fred's last book, Michigan Copper: the Untold Story, is an incredible storehouse of American diffusion information. It's a great read for anyone interested in the subject, and it is a great source for those attempting to locate diffusion artifacts and sites.

      Hey, I talk too much.

      Lee
    • minnesotastan
      Nice post, Lee. My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a
      Message 2 of 6 , May 9 2:15 PM
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        Nice post, Lee.

        My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a Native American who received them as trade goods I can only wonder.

        The knee-jerk dismissal of early diffusion of people/goods is an easy way for people to simplify their thought processes, so I don't waste much time arguing with those who prefer to think that way. I blogged it to stimulate thought among those who have never considered such things; the replies by naysayers are to be expected.

        Personally it's much more fun to fall asleep at night dreaming of Phoenecians traversing the St Lawrence Seaway...
      • ZHstar@aol.com
        Roman coins-? Prof. Norman Totten has written extensively on coins from various cultures found in America. Gloria Farley also has documented her finds.? Much
        Message 3 of 6 , May 9 2:45 PM
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          Roman coins-  Prof. Norman Totten has written extensively on coins from various cultures found in America. Gloria Farley also has documented her finds.  Much of this if found in ESOP articles.  Epigraphic Society Occasional Publications.  They have just come out with CD's at a reasonable price. 
          Zena Halpern

          -----Original Message-----
          From: minnesotastan <minnesotastan@...>
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 5:15 pm
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Roman Coins Found...



          Nice post, Lee.

          My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a Native American who received them as trade goods I can only wonder.

          The knee-jerk dismissal of early diffusion of people/goods is an easy way for people to simplify their thought processes, so I don't waste much time arguing with those who prefer to think that way. I blogged it to stimulate thought among those who have never considered such things; the replies by naysayers are to be expected.

          Personally it's much more fun to fall asleep at night dreaming of Phoenecians traversing the St Lawrence Seaway...

        • Ted Sojka
          I have noticed that the copper ingots called hides that were found in a mound here in this country and illustrated in Barry Fell s book, look exactly like the
          Message 4 of 6 , May 9 7:19 PM
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            I have noticed that the copper ingots called hides that were found in a mound here in this country and illustrated in Barry Fell's book, look exactly like the ones Jeff Bennett of this group,  photographed from an ancient shipwreck in the Mediterranean.  The cargo was recently shown at the Metropolitan in New York and Jeff ventured there to take the photos.

            I don't argue with people who disagree as it gets nowhere.   Listening is the skill for the third part of life, and applying your energies and interests to the fullest, as stated by Sarah Lawrence Lightfoot, of Harvard.   If you missed her talk on Bill Moyer's show this week you missed a good thing, and try to see it online.

            At that age myself.

            My Norwegian neighbors in this Viking town will argue for Long Boats passing those Phonecian ships in the night on the Great Lakes.

            Ted
            PS
            Glad for the discussion.   I quit the field of professional archeology early on as my own beliefs and intuition got in the way too often.  


            On May 9, 2009, at 4:15 PM, minnesotastan wrote:



            Nice post, Lee.

            My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a Native American who received them as trade goods I can only wonder.

            The knee-jerk dismissal of early diffusion of people/goods is an easy way for people to simplify their thought processes, so I don't waste much time arguing with those who prefer to think that way. I blogged it to stimulate thought among those who have never considered such things; the replies by naysayers are to be expected.

            Personally it's much more fun to fall asleep at night dreaming of Phoenecians traversing the St Lawrence Seaway...


          • TRAYLOROO
              To the Enlightened .. and Un-enlightened:   The hard evidence and literature about pre Columbian tourists to the Americas is voluminous.  Roman coins and
            Message 5 of 6 , May 10 7:25 AM
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              To the Enlightened .. and Un-enlightened:
               
              The hard evidence and literature about pre Columbian tourists to the Americas is voluminous.  Roman coins and other evidence of Roman visitors is more than a one-time chance find, there have been finds in America.  But, Roman coins were used in the Empire .... and were something like the American dollar today ... used by many nationals.  Said "nationals" were the tourist and explorer of their day.  Persons competent in ancient languages can determine from their glyphs the nationality and approximate time that style of writing was current.
               
              As for the Michigan Copper Plates, there is a good collection in the LDS Museum basement, Salt Lake, Utah.  Their collection include other evidence of pre Colombian visitors from the Old World.  There have been estimates of the tons of copper mined in Michigan ... and shipped to Europe ... pre Columbian.
               
              Even the Kensington Stone has become a valued artifact. Try it in your search window.
               
              Not to be accused of being narrow, we also should recognize the visitors from China c1200 to 1500. This is by ship, not boat.  A ship is described as suitable for open ocean, and a boat is suitable for rivers and coastal use. We are aware they arrived in the Americas by walking, boat, and ship ...   
               
              As for the literature and artifacts about this subject, there is such a volume that we recently have been discussing the pressing need for a specialized library and repository. 
               
              Cal Traylor

               
               
              ===========================================
              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Roman Coins Found...
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 8:19 PM

              I have noticed that the copper ingots called hides that were found in a mound here in this country and illustrated in Barry Fell's book, look exactly like the ones Jeff Bennett of this group,  photographed from an ancient shipwreck in the Mediterranean.  The cargo was recently shown at the Metropolitan in New York and Jeff ventured there to take the photos.

              I don't argue with people who disagree as it gets nowhere.   Listening is the skill for the third part of life, and applying your energies and interests to the fullest, as stated by Sarah Lawrence Lightfoot, of Harvard.   If you missed her talk on Bill Moyer's show this week you missed a good thing, and try to see it online.

              At that age myself.

              My Norwegian neighbors in this Viking town will argue for Long Boats passing those Phonecian ships in the night on the Great Lakes.

              Ted
              PS
              Glad for the discussion.   I quit the field of professional archeology early on as my own beliefs and intuition got in the way too often.  


              On May 9, 2009, at 4:15 PM, minnesotastan wrote:



              Nice post, Lee.

              My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a Native American who received them as trade goods I can only wonder.

              The knee-jerk dismissal of early diffusion of people/goods is an easy way for people to simplify their thought processes, so I don't waste much time arguing with those who prefer to think that way. I blogged it to stimulate thought among those who have never considered such things; the replies by naysayers are to be expected.

              Personally it's much more fun to fall asleep at night dreaming of Phoenecians traversing the St Lawrence Seaway...


            • Ted Sojka
              http://www.archive.org/stream/recollectionsofs00wallrich/recollectionsofs00wallrich_djvu.txt Additional Note: Some were not able to open the link in my email.
              Message 6 of 6 , May 10 8:15 AM
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                http://www.archive.org/stream/recollectionsofs00wallrich/recollectionsofs00wallrich_djvu.txt
                Additional Note:
                Some were not able to open the link in my  email.  the link above provides access.   The style of prose is of the time, but is pretty clear as to what happened at this event that was overshadowed by the events of the civil war occurring at that time.
                ted
                On May 10, 2009, at 9:25 AM, TRAYLOROO wrote:




                 
                To the Enlightened .. and Un-enlightened:
                 
                The hard evidence and literature about pre Columbian tourists to the Americas is voluminous.  Roman coins and other evidence of Roman visitors is more than a one-time chance find, there have been finds in America.  But, Roman coins were used in the Empire .... and were something like the American dollar today ... used by many nationals.  Said "nationals" were the tourist and explorer of their day.  Persons competent in ancient languages can determine from their glyphs the nationality and approximate time that style of writing was current.
                 
                As for the Michigan Copper Plates, there is a good collection in the LDS Museum basement, Salt Lake, Utah.  Their collection include other evidence of pre Colombian visitors from the Old World.  There have been estimates of the tons of copper mined in Michigan ... and shipped to Europe ... pre Columbian.
                 
                Even the Kensington Stone has become a valued artifact. Try it in your search window.
                 
                Not to be accused of being narrow, we also should recognize the visitors from China c1200 to 1500. This is by ship, not boat.  A ship is described as suitable for open ocean, and a boat is suitable for rivers and coastal use. We are aware they arrived in the Americas by walking, boat, and ship ...   
                 
                As for the literature and artifacts about this subject, there is such a volume that we recently have been discussing the pressing need for a specialized library and repository. 
                 
                Cal Traylor

                 
                 
                ============ ========= ========= ========= ====
                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Roman Coins Found...
                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 8:19 PM

                I have noticed that the copper ingots called hides that were found in a mound here in this country and illustrated in Barry Fell's book, look exactly like the ones Jeff Bennett of this group,  photographed from an ancient shipwreck in the Mediterranean.  The cargo was recently shown at the Metropolitan in New York and Jeff ventured there to take the photos.

                I don't argue with people who disagree as it gets nowhere.   Listening is the skill for the third part of life, and applying your energies and interests to the fullest, as stated by Sarah Lawrence Lightfoot, of Harvard.   If you missed her talk on Bill Moyer's show this week you missed a good thing, and try to see it online.

                At that age myself.

                My Norwegian neighbors in this Viking town will argue for Long Boats passing those Phonecian ships in the night on the Great Lakes.

                Ted
                PS
                Glad for the discussion.   I quit the field of professional archeology early on as my own beliefs and intuition got in the way too often.  


                On May 9, 2009, at 4:15 PM, minnesotastan wrote:



                Nice post, Lee.

                My personal opinion re the Roman coins is that they were intentionally buried at some time in prehistory, whether by a European visitor or a Native American who received them as trade goods I can only wonder.

                The knee-jerk dismissal of early diffusion of people/goods is an easy way for people to simplify their thought processes, so I don't waste much time arguing with those who prefer to think that way. I blogged it to stimulate thought among those who have never considered such things; the replies by naysayers are to be expected.

                Personally it's much more fun to fall asleep at night dreaming of Phoenecians traversing the St Lawrence Seaway...




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