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Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?

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  • james m. clark jr.
    This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this somewhat interesting. ...
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
      This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
      inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this
      somewhat interesting.
      ---------------------------------------------

      Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?

      STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003

      ORKNEY may have been the largest
      prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
      site in Britain, new research reveals
      today.
      Archaeologists using the latest
      techniques to map under the soil
      discovered the world heritage site
      covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
      was a massive centre of activity in Stone
      Age times.
      Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
      industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
      recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
      Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
      Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
      technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the patterns
      of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.

      Rest at

      http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
      (not sure link is active after a year or two)




      I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).

      Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
      over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
      to in his book on Britain and Germany?

      Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly

      "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
      in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
      hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
      misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
      will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
      was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)

      "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
      their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
      Tactius;p.133


      "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever, boat-
      building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
      Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their life-
      stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
      crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
      and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
      seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
      Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
      the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
      the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.

      Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
      miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
      king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
      1982, p.13.


      Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
      historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
      ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
      why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this mythical
      district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
      earlier prior to the first millennium.
      The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only wonder
      if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
      want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
      sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
      motherland of Germany or England after all.
    • Susan
      Hi Jamey, I was unable to retrieve the full web site to read in its entirety, nor find anywhere where anyone scanned and put into a web or blog site. Despite
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 15, 2007
        Hi Jamey,

        I was unable to retrieve the full web site to read in its entirety,
        nor find anywhere where anyone scanned and put into a web or blog
        site. Despite being a novice researcher poor at geography, the
        article you sent was so interesting I went to the maps to find the
        Orkneys. Mentally drop the water levels a hundred to two hundred feet
        or more, and 'watch' dozens of interconnecting islands as one land
        mass. Plus, think of the ancient shorelines under water for millinnea.
        Scientists are only now just starting to re-think and re-investigate
        in terms of varying later levels, glaciatic rebound, etc.

        Ancient Waterways has a small membership, gathers some interesting
        posts and links, but illicits few responses other than my own rather
        subjective posts, which may not really be very helpful. I suggest you
        also resubmit the article to PreColumbain Inscriptions. Sometimes
        issues are going on there or a multitude of topics and certain fine
        posts do not get responses.

        I am inserting a link on the Orkneys from the cooperative book by two
        researcher members of PI, Wakefield and deJonge:

        http://www.howthesungod.com/articles.html

        I suggest addressing both of those fellows about recent developments
        on the Orkney sites. I am acquainted with Jay Wakefield through
        previous conferences and correspondence, he gave me a copy of his
        book which I have not yet had time to read. Wakefield (AAAPF board
        member) and possibly deJonge will be attending the Ohio
        AAAPF/THOR/Midwestern Epigraphic Society conference in the fall. I
        have been closely linked with AAAPF from the start, will be attendign
        at least part of the conference but will look for a waterwayside camp
        site to share with others and keep expenses minimal. More
        importantly, being close to the elements puts one under the
        starscape, earth, Nature--for me, free 'tuition' amongst the
        necessary introductory teachers about distant lands.

        I've not been to the Ohio mound groups before and only passed briefly
        through the state. The area is not terribly far from SE Illinios
        burrows cave area nor the Tennessee/KY area where your new group is
        forming and doing initial preparatory research. Perhaps you or a
        representataive or two may wish to update the researchers on latest
        developments at the Tennessee sites.

        Important to any preparatory part of research is doing just what you
        are doing, Jamey---bringing people together (professionals and lay
        persons), writing letters/posts/round table discussions, perhaps.
        Hopefully this has gotten many more persons than myself researching
        the pre-history of the Highland Rim, Tennessee/Ky waterway sytems,
        geography, climate,etc. and into considering very, very ancient
        possiblities.

        One site I sent to PI and this group not long ago in did not bring a
        response at all, and despite the fact I did not have acess to the
        full article, enough was stated to show a large region of probable
        3000-5000 year old ancient copper mining and cave sites in Tenn and
        KY. Even copper culture expert CF Rydholm was astounded, had never
        heard of such a thing in that area, but reference articles were
        reputable enough to merit further investigation which he intends to
        do with his old KY/Tenn research friend Lee Pennington. The copper
        mining there was not an insignificant amount of copper, either, and
        also parallelled the time perior of the earlier ancient "copper
        culture" mining of Lake Superior. The SE copper mining would have
        been definitely linkable by ancient Mississippi River tributaries. As
        other articles stated, all Tennessee rivers are tributaries of the
        Mississippi.

        Glacial weight/melt several thousand years ago was still ongoing in
        more northerly regions yet, ocean levels lower than today but inland
        rivers, Mississippi River run-off and tributaries considerably higher.

        Once again, Jamey, I believe one of the most exciting and significant
        topics in the grand scheme of things going right now at PreColumbian
        Inscriptions is the ongoing information you are fielding from the
        Tennessee folks. Such matters take time and I see you doing a great
        job interconnecting many people of diverse backgrounds, interests,
        persuasions. Explorations from the very ancient past in North America
        seem to make people nervous, and even many diffusionist researchers
        shy from the very reasons professionals do: absolute lack of
        documented, researched data. Also, uncovering astounding revelations
        about Stone Age peoples-especially the possiblities of
        intercontinental searfaring global peoples-tends to blow away a lot
        of preconceptions and jostles current cultural, religious (Biblical
        beliefs) and intellectual ideas held by so-called advanced,'cultured'
        peoples.

        More comments about the article...the kinds of very diverse peoples
        who frequented the Orkneys, engaged in mutual trade prior to and
        after 'viking' seizure.

        Susan
        ___________________________________

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
        jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
        > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find
        this
        > somewhat interesting.
        > ---------------------------------------------
        >
        > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
        >
        > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
        >
        > ORKNEY may have been the largest
        > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
        > site in Britain, new research reveals
        > today.
        > Archaeologists using the latest
        > techniques to map under the soil
        > discovered the world heritage site
        > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
        > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
        > Age times.
        > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
        > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
        > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
        > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
        > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
        > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
        patterns
        > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
        >
        > Rest at
        >
        > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
        > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
        >
        > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
        > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
        > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
        >
        > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
        >
        > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
        > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
        > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
        > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
        > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
        > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
        >
        > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
        > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
        > Tactius;p.133
        >
        >
        > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
        boat-
        > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
        > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
        life-
        > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
        > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
        > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
        > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
        > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
        > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
        > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
        >
        > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
        > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
        > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
        > 1982, p.13.
        >
        >
        > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
        > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
        > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
        > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
        mythical
        > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
        > earlier prior to the first millennium.
        > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
        wonder
        > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
        > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
        > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
        > motherland of Germany or England after all.
        >
      • Susan
        Jamey & Ancient Waterways members, Here is a later (2005) article by Stephen Stewart, the writer of the 2003 news clip you sent. This one is a general
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 15, 2007
          Jamey & Ancient Waterways members,
          Here is a later (2005) article by Stephen Stewart, the writer of the
          2003 news clip you sent. This one is a general reference to possible
          very ancient settlers to the Orkney islands.
          MSE

          "World Archaeology News 23 May 2005 Did the Vikings drive natives
          from the isles? STEPHEN STEWART May 17 2005

          VIKING settlers may have "ethnically cleansed" Scotland's islands,
          waging a genocidal campaign against native Pictish tribes as they
          arrived, according to evidence uncovered by archaeologists.

          Excavations on Orkney could finally settle a centuries-old historical
          debate over whether the Norsemen integrated with indigenous locals or
          slaughtered them at the dawn of the last millennium.

          Work at Langskaill farm, in Westray, shows signs of a Pictish culture
          vanish abruptly with the arrival of the Scandinavians, underlining
          the theory that the Northern Isles were taken violently.

          The dig uncovered remains dating from the early Iron Age through to
          the fourteenth century, with the pre-Norse evidence disappearing
          suddenly as the settlers arrived in larger numbers.

          A Viking-Norse longhouse was unearthed, which was built directly over
          an earlier earth house and part of a Pictish house, probably
          indicating a takeover of the site and adjoining lands.

          Olwyn Owen, a senior inspector of ancient monuments with Historic
          Scotland, which was one of the excavation's sponsors, said: "This
          site shows a very clear change of material culture but it doesn't
          show what actually happened to the Picts. That is very difficult to
          prove."

          In recent years, the image of the Vikings has been transformed from
          bloodthirsty pagan savages to that of sophisticated merchants with
          exceptional navigational and engineering skills. The finds on Orkney,
          however, are expected to reopen the entire debate.

          Brian Smith, an archivist at Shetland Islands Council, said the new
          evidence was a further hint of some sort of displacement of the
          native population.

          He said: "(Langskaill) lends a local dimension to the idea that there
          was strife.

          "All that the archaeologists (in favour of the integration theory)
          have to argue is the fact that some Pictish detritus has been found
          in Norse archaeological levels, and that there is a stone in Bressay
          in Shetland that some think contains Norse and Celtic words.

          "In the first case, co-existence is of course not the only
          explanation.

          "In the second, doubt has been expressed by the experts about the
          alleged linguistic material on the Bressay stone, and there is no way
          of getting a precise date for it."

          Ms Owen said archaeology may be unable to provide a complete picture
          of the process of Viking settlement.

          She said: "There is a danger that the argument becomes too simplistic
          with one group arguing the Vikings slaughtered in order to take the
          island over and the other maintaining they started living peacefully.
          It may not be that simple."

          The finds inside the earth house related to the two main periods of
          use. The Iron Age remains comprised mainly of soil deposits, but
          there were also a number of pieces of whale bone and stone tools.

          The later Viking-Norse period deposits included midden, made up of
          shells, fishbones, fragments of soapstone vessels and human
          coprolites or fossilised excrement".

          (From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4562853.stm)
          ___________________________________________________________________
          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
          jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
          > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find
          this
          > somewhat interesting.
          > ---------------------------------------------
          >
          > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
          >
          > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
          >
          > ORKNEY may have been the largest
          > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
          > site in Britain, new research reveals
          > today.
          > Archaeologists using the latest
          > techniques to map under the soil
          > discovered the world heritage site
          > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
          > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
          > Age times.
          > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
          > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
          > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
          > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
          > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
          > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
          patterns
          > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
          >
          > Rest at
          >
          > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
          > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
          >
          > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
          > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
          > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
          >
          > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
          >
          > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
          > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
          > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
          > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
          > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
          > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
          >
          > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
          > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
          > Tactius;p.133
          >
          >
          > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
          boat-
          > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
          > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
          life-
          > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
          > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
          > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
          > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
          > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
          > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
          > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
          >
          > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
          > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
          > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
          > 1982, p.13.
          >
          >
          > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
          > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
          > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
          > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
          mythical
          > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
          > earlier prior to the first millennium.
          > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
          wonder
          > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
          > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
          > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
          > motherland of Germany or England after all.
          >
        • james m. clark jr.
          Hi Susan, all (sorry for the delay) Some interesting notes Susan I have thought about maybe reposting it at PI if I can find just a little more info for my
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 5, 2007
            Hi Susan, all
            (sorry for the delay)

            Some interesting notes Susan

            I have thought about maybe reposting it at PI if I can find just a
            little more info for my personal plesure quest; besides if your not
            planning on deleting aws in the next 20 years, here will be just fine,
            besides more will visit; PI isn't exactly needed at the moment. This
            may be nothing at all. But unless Ammianus Marcellinus did in fact
            indulge in hyperbole "Bibliotecis sepulcrorum ritu in perpetuum
            clausis" ("The libraries, like tombs, were closed forever")I may have
            opened a box, no clear picture of a puzzle as of yet, if any, but
            something just may emerge.

            However the Suebi/Sueves are more of a mystery to me among the so
            called "barbarians" prior to the sixth century currently.

            The Kingdom of the Sueves at this much later time were farther to the
            south, including the Galica region of the Iberian Penninsula, and
            nearly 50% of the current region of Portugal just north of Lisbon
            (Visigoths to the south and east)and northeast toward the Castelo
            Branco region with access to the Ocean Sea as well as access to Bay
            Biscay and just perhaps a key region to the Mediterranean along the
            with the inclination to consider the small country Andorra (once one
            of Charlemagne's buffer states and the last of the March states)and
            the indigenous Andorrans. Yet Tacitus, around a century and a half
            prior to Charlemagne's Andorra for the reason to keep the Moors at
            bay.

            Equally interesting, according to the book by Thomas Calill, "HOW THE
            IRISH SAVED CIVILIZATION" it was when the Rhine froze over was Rome's
            final days after centuries of germatic waves that it was finally
            possible to declare that there's no place like home. According to
            Calill, it was the Vandals, Alans, and Sueves whom inflected the final
            blow to the Empire.

            As huge as the Rhine is, it is hard to imaging the surface becoming
            solid. If so it would be interesting to know where. Yet supposedly
            even in the 1800's if I recall correctly even the Baltic Sea is said
            to have froze over; or at least sometime durring the so called LIA
            "Little Ice Age" in which I did research, but for the most part came
            up empty minded at that time. But as far as ancient waterways, Keyser,
            a british isralite speeks of an ancient river that lead to the Baltic
            from the Mediterranean (supposedly the passage way that Scota and the
            Milasian Egyptians took?)

            To be honest, I don't recall who it was even spoken of as to whom it
            was that considered themselves chief of the Suebi(Alied peoples of foe
            enemies which basically could be said from either side).

            "The account in Germania is contradictory to that of the silent
            geographers in at least one major point. Tacitus viewed the Baltic as
            the Suebian Sea and lists the seven tribes above as being in Suebian
            territory. The Suebi were among the Herminones of central Germany. And
            yet Pliny, who is just as creditable, accounts for the Teutones as
            being Inguaeones, the Ingaevones of Tacitus. In Strabo, the Suebi are
            to the south of the coast. The Suebian language went on to become Old
            High German, while the Angles and Jutes were among the speakers of Old
            Saxon.

            An explanation no doubt existed, whether one of the authors
            misunderstood or the distribution of tribes in the 1st century
            resulted from an overlay of different historical schemes. At this time
            there is no verifiable answer to the question and no good reason for
            forcing an answer by excluding evidence. History is by nature often
            contradictory. It is only an incomplete story."

            http://www.bahamasiworld.com/wiki-Angles

            I'll find more about this story when I have more time

            be well,
            jamey

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jamey & Ancient Waterways members,
            > Here is a later (2005) article by Stephen Stewart, the writer of the
            > 2003 news clip you sent. This one is a general reference to possible
            > very ancient settlers to the Orkney islands.
            > MSE
            >
            > "World Archaeology News 23 May 2005 Did the Vikings drive natives
            > from the isles? STEPHEN STEWART May 17 2005
            >
            > VIKING settlers may have "ethnically cleansed" Scotland's islands,
            > waging a genocidal campaign against native Pictish tribes as they
            > arrived, according to evidence uncovered by archaeologists.
            >
            > Excavations on Orkney could finally settle a centuries-old historical
            > debate over whether the Norsemen integrated with indigenous locals or
            > slaughtered them at the dawn of the last millennium.
            >
            > Work at Langskaill farm, in Westray, shows signs of a Pictish culture
            > vanish abruptly with the arrival of the Scandinavians, underlining
            > the theory that the Northern Isles were taken violently.
            >
            > The dig uncovered remains dating from the early Iron Age through to
            > the fourteenth century, with the pre-Norse evidence disappearing
            > suddenly as the settlers arrived in larger numbers.
            >
            > A Viking-Norse longhouse was unearthed, which was built directly over
            > an earlier earth house and part of a Pictish house, probably
            > indicating a takeover of the site and adjoining lands.
            >
            > Olwyn Owen, a senior inspector of ancient monuments with Historic
            > Scotland, which was one of the excavation's sponsors, said: "This
            > site shows a very clear change of material culture but it doesn't
            > show what actually happened to the Picts. That is very difficult to
            > prove."
            >
            > In recent years, the image of the Vikings has been transformed from
            > bloodthirsty pagan savages to that of sophisticated merchants with
            > exceptional navigational and engineering skills. The finds on Orkney,
            > however, are expected to reopen the entire debate.
            >
            > Brian Smith, an archivist at Shetland Islands Council, said the new
            > evidence was a further hint of some sort of displacement of the
            > native population.
            >
            > He said: "(Langskaill) lends a local dimension to the idea that there
            > was strife.
            >
            > "All that the archaeologists (in favour of the integration theory)
            > have to argue is the fact that some Pictish detritus has been found
            > in Norse archaeological levels, and that there is a stone in Bressay
            > in Shetland that some think contains Norse and Celtic words.
            >
            > "In the first case, co-existence is of course not the only
            > explanation.
            >
            > "In the second, doubt has been expressed by the experts about the
            > alleged linguistic material on the Bressay stone, and there is no way
            > of getting a precise date for it."
            >
            > Ms Owen said archaeology may be unable to provide a complete picture
            > of the process of Viking settlement.
            >
            > She said: "There is a danger that the argument becomes too simplistic
            > with one group arguing the Vikings slaughtered in order to take the
            > island over and the other maintaining they started living peacefully.
            > It may not be that simple."
            >
            > The finds inside the earth house related to the two main periods of
            > use. The Iron Age remains comprised mainly of soil deposits, but
            > there were also a number of pieces of whale bone and stone tools.
            >
            > The later Viking-Norse period deposits included midden, made up of
            > shells, fishbones, fragments of soapstone vessels and human
            > coprolites or fossilised excrement".
            >
            > (From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4562853.stm)
            > ___________________________________________________________________
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
            > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
            > >
            > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
            > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find
            > this
            > > somewhat interesting.
            > > ---------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
            > >
            > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
            > >
            > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
            > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
            > > site in Britain, new research reveals
            > > today.
            > > Archaeologists using the latest
            > > techniques to map under the soil
            > > discovered the world heritage site
            > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
            > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
            > > Age times.
            > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
            > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
            > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
            > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
            > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
            > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
            > patterns
            > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
            > >
            > > Rest at
            > >
            > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
            > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
            > >
            > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
            > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
            > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
            > >
            > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
            > >
            > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
            > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
            > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
            > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
            > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
            > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
            > >
            > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
            > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
            > > Tactius;p.133
            > >
            > >
            > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
            > boat-
            > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
            > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
            > life-
            > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
            > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
            > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
            > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
            > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
            > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
            > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
            > >
            > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
            > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
            > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
            > > 1982, p.13.
            > >
            > >
            > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
            > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
            > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
            > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
            > mythical
            > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
            > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
            > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
            > wonder
            > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
            > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
            > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
            > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
            > >
            >
          • james m. clark jr.
            little ice age A period of cooler temperatures between 1500 and 1800 c.e. http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/geo/egeo2/content/glossary/l.htm I wasn t sure of
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 17, 2007
              little ice age

              A period of cooler temperatures between 1500 and 1800 c.e.

              http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/geo/egeo2/content/glossary/l.htm

              I wasn't sure of it's acclaimed durration.

              be well,
              jamey

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
              jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Susan, all
              > (sorry for the delay)
              >
              > Some interesting notes Susan
              >
              > I have thought about maybe reposting it at PI if I can find just a
              > little more info for my personal plesure quest; besides if your not
              > planning on deleting aws in the next 20 years, here will be just
              fine,
              > besides more will visit; PI isn't exactly needed at the moment. This
              > may be nothing at all. But unless Ammianus Marcellinus did in fact
              > indulge in hyperbole "Bibliotecis sepulcrorum ritu in perpetuum
              > clausis" ("The libraries, like tombs, were closed forever")I may
              have
              > opened a box, no clear picture of a puzzle as of yet, if any, but
              > something just may emerge.
              >
              > However the Suebi/Sueves are more of a mystery to me among the so
              > called "barbarians" prior to the sixth century currently.
              >
              > The Kingdom of the Sueves at this much later time were farther to
              the
              > south, including the Galica region of the Iberian Penninsula, and
              > nearly 50% of the current region of Portugal just north of Lisbon
              > (Visigoths to the south and east)and northeast toward the Castelo
              > Branco region with access to the Ocean Sea as well as access to Bay
              > Biscay and just perhaps a key region to the Mediterranean along the
              > with the inclination to consider the small country Andorra (once one
              > of Charlemagne's buffer states and the last of the March states)and
              > the indigenous Andorrans. Yet Tacitus, around a century and a half
              > prior to Charlemagne's Andorra for the reason to keep the Moors at
              > bay.
              >
              > Equally interesting, according to the book by Thomas Calill, "HOW
              THE
              > IRISH SAVED CIVILIZATION" it was when the Rhine froze over was
              Rome's
              > final days after centuries of germatic waves that it was finally
              > possible to declare that there's no place like home. According to
              > Calill, it was the Vandals, Alans, and Sueves whom inflected the
              final
              > blow to the Empire.
              >
              > As huge as the Rhine is, it is hard to imaging the surface becoming
              > solid. If so it would be interesting to know where. Yet supposedly
              > even in the 1800's if I recall correctly even the Baltic Sea is said
              > to have froze over; or at least sometime durring the so called LIA
              > "Little Ice Age" in which I did research, but for the most part came
              > up empty minded at that time. But as far as ancient waterways,
              Keyser,
              > a british isralite speeks of an ancient river that lead to the
              Baltic
              > from the Mediterranean (supposedly the passage way that Scota and
              the
              > Milasian Egyptians took?)
              >
              > To be honest, I don't recall who it was even spoken of as to whom it
              > was that considered themselves chief of the Suebi(Alied peoples of
              foe
              > enemies which basically could be said from either side).
              >
              > "The account in Germania is contradictory to that of the silent
              > geographers in at least one major point. Tacitus viewed the Baltic
              as
              > the Suebian Sea and lists the seven tribes above as being in Suebian
              > territory. The Suebi were among the Herminones of central Germany.
              And
              > yet Pliny, who is just as creditable, accounts for the Teutones as
              > being Inguaeones, the Ingaevones of Tacitus. In Strabo, the Suebi
              are
              > to the south of the coast. The Suebian language went on to become
              Old
              > High German, while the Angles and Jutes were among the speakers of
              Old
              > Saxon.
              >
              > An explanation no doubt existed, whether one of the authors
              > misunderstood or the distribution of tribes in the 1st century
              > resulted from an overlay of different historical schemes. At this
              time
              > there is no verifiable answer to the question and no good reason for
              > forcing an answer by excluding evidence. History is by nature often
              > contradictory. It is only an incomplete story."
              >
              > http://www.bahamasiworld.com/wiki-Angles
              >
              > I'll find more about this story when I have more time
              >
              > be well,
              > jamey
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Jamey & Ancient Waterways members,
              > > Here is a later (2005) article by Stephen Stewart, the writer of
              the
              > > 2003 news clip you sent. This one is a general reference to
              possible
              > > very ancient settlers to the Orkney islands.
              > > MSE
              > >
              > > "World Archaeology News 23 May 2005 Did the Vikings drive
              natives
              > > from the isles? STEPHEN STEWART May 17 2005
              > >
              > > VIKING settlers may have "ethnically cleansed" Scotland's
              islands,
              > > waging a genocidal campaign against native Pictish tribes as they
              > > arrived, according to evidence uncovered by archaeologists.
              > >
              > > Excavations on Orkney could finally settle a centuries-old
              historical
              > > debate over whether the Norsemen integrated with indigenous
              locals or
              > > slaughtered them at the dawn of the last millennium.
              > >
              > > Work at Langskaill farm, in Westray, shows signs of a Pictish
              culture
              > > vanish abruptly with the arrival of the Scandinavians,
              underlining
              > > the theory that the Northern Isles were taken violently.
              > >
              > > The dig uncovered remains dating from the early Iron Age through
              to
              > > the fourteenth century, with the pre-Norse evidence disappearing
              > > suddenly as the settlers arrived in larger numbers.
              > >
              > > A Viking-Norse longhouse was unearthed, which was built directly
              over
              > > an earlier earth house and part of a Pictish house, probably
              > > indicating a takeover of the site and adjoining lands.
              > >
              > > Olwyn Owen, a senior inspector of ancient monuments with Historic
              > > Scotland, which was one of the excavation's sponsors, said: "This
              > > site shows a very clear change of material culture but it doesn't
              > > show what actually happened to the Picts. That is very difficult
              to
              > > prove."
              > >
              > > In recent years, the image of the Vikings has been transformed
              from
              > > bloodthirsty pagan savages to that of sophisticated merchants
              with
              > > exceptional navigational and engineering skills. The finds on
              Orkney,
              > > however, are expected to reopen the entire debate.
              > >
              > > Brian Smith, an archivist at Shetland Islands Council, said the
              new
              > > evidence was a further hint of some sort of displacement of the
              > > native population.
              > >
              > > He said: "(Langskaill) lends a local dimension to the idea that
              there
              > > was strife.
              > >
              > > "All that the archaeologists (in favour of the integration
              theory)
              > > have to argue is the fact that some Pictish detritus has been
              found
              > > in Norse archaeological levels, and that there is a stone in
              Bressay
              > > in Shetland that some think contains Norse and Celtic words.
              > >
              > > "In the first case, co-existence is of course not the only
              > > explanation.
              > >
              > > "In the second, doubt has been expressed by the experts about the
              > > alleged linguistic material on the Bressay stone, and there is no
              way
              > > of getting a precise date for it."
              > >
              > > Ms Owen said archaeology may be unable to provide a complete
              picture
              > > of the process of Viking settlement.
              > >
              > > She said: "There is a danger that the argument becomes too
              simplistic
              > > with one group arguing the Vikings slaughtered in order to take
              the
              > > island over and the other maintaining they started living
              peacefully.
              > > It may not be that simple."
              > >
              > > The finds inside the earth house related to the two main periods
              of
              > > use. The Iron Age remains comprised mainly of soil deposits, but
              > > there were also a number of pieces of whale bone and stone tools.
              > >
              > > The later Viking-Norse period deposits included midden, made up
              of
              > > shells, fishbones, fragments of soapstone vessels and human
              > > coprolites or fossilised excrement".
              > >
              > > (From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4562853.stm)
              > >
              ___________________________________________________________________
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
              > > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
              > > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would
              find
              > > this
              > > > somewhat interesting.
              > > > ---------------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
              > > >
              > > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
              > > >
              > > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
              > > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
              > > > site in Britain, new research reveals
              > > > today.
              > > > Archaeologists using the latest
              > > > techniques to map under the soil
              > > > discovered the world heritage site
              > > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
              > > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
              > > > Age times.
              > > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
              > > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
              > > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes
              of
              > > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
              > > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a
              geophysical
              > > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
              > > patterns
              > > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
              > > >
              > > > Rest at
              > > >
              > > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
              > > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
              > > >
              > > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
              > > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
              > > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
              > > >
              > > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
              > > >
              > > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
              > > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
              > > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
              > > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
              > > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
              > > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
              > > >
              > > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
              > > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
              > > > Tactius;p.133
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
              > > boat-
              > > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
              > > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
              > > life-
              > > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
              > > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-
              boat
              > > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
              > > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
              > > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of
              Wales and
              > > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and
              Loire,
              > > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and
              Jerusalem.
              > > >
              > > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven
              little
              > > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of
              Alba." -
              > > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
              > > > 1982, p.13.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
              > > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
              > > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have
              known
              > > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
              > > mythical
              > > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700
              years
              > > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
              > > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
              > > wonder
              > > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he
              would
              > > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from
              all
              > > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't
              the
              > > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • james m. clark jr.
              Y all, I really like Iquick metaseach engine The Medieval Age Timeline A timeline relating to The Medieval Age ... Alphonso I becomes first king of Portugal.
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 17, 2007
                Y'all, I really like Iquick metaseach engine

                The Medieval Age Timeline
                A timeline relating to The Medieval Age ... Alphonso I becomes first
                king of Portugal. Baltic Sea froze. Benedictine Abbey of Cluny is
                founded
                www.timelines.info/history/ages_and_periods/the_medieval_age/
                Highlight - Found by MSN (1), AltaVista/AllTheWeb (5), Yahoo (6)

                Hum, so when did the Baltic Sea freeze solid I wonder.
                Hey Stan, you may need to add an alternative route.:) Keyser has a
                theroy (one I have disproved without a doubt)that according to the
                Red Record the Lena Lenape's recieved their name from the Lena River.
                What is so ironic about this theory is the discription of the so
                called Kenwick Man migration just last year I believe, if I recall
                correctly, seems somewhat like a plageristic move from Keysers theory
                written years ago in a Shaman message board somewhere which reminds me
                I never did confess in Archaeologytheorymethod partly because of that
                but I will now that I remember where it is my theory that the
                Kenwicks migration was a plageristic move by the author of said
                article. I think I did explain what I did and why in one ng but
                besides today I don't think I've posted anthing there since.

                be well,
                jamey


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
                jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                >
                > little ice age
                >
                > A period of cooler temperatures between 1500 and 1800 c.e.
                >
                > http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/geo/egeo2/content/glossary/l.htm
                >
                > I wasn't sure of it's acclaimed durration.
                >
                > be well,
                > jamey
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
                > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Susan, all
                > > (sorry for the delay)
                > >
                > > Some interesting notes Susan
                > >
                > > I have thought about maybe reposting it at PI if I can find just a
                > > little more info for my personal plesure quest; besides if your
                not
                > > planning on deleting aws in the next 20 years, here will be just
                > fine,
                > > besides more will visit; PI isn't exactly needed at the moment.
                This
                > > may be nothing at all. But unless Ammianus Marcellinus did in fact
                > > indulge in hyperbole "Bibliotecis sepulcrorum ritu in perpetuum
                > > clausis" ("The libraries, like tombs, were closed forever")I may
                > have
                > > opened a box, no clear picture of a puzzle as of yet, if any, but
                > > something just may emerge.
                > >
                > > However the Suebi/Sueves are more of a mystery to me among the so
                > > called "barbarians" prior to the sixth century currently.
                > >
                > > The Kingdom of the Sueves at this much later time were farther to
                > the
                > > south, including the Galica region of the Iberian Penninsula, and
                > > nearly 50% of the current region of Portugal just north of Lisbon
                > > (Visigoths to the south and east)and northeast toward the Castelo
                > > Branco region with access to the Ocean Sea as well as access to
                Bay
                > > Biscay and just perhaps a key region to the Mediterranean along
                the
                > > with the inclination to consider the small country Andorra (once
                one
                > > of Charlemagne's buffer states and the last of the March states)
                and
                > > the indigenous Andorrans. Yet Tacitus, around a century and a half
                > > prior to Charlemagne's Andorra for the reason to keep the Moors
                at
                > > bay.
                > >
                > > Equally interesting, according to the book by Thomas Calill, "HOW
                > THE
                > > IRISH SAVED CIVILIZATION" it was when the Rhine froze over was
                > Rome's
                > > final days after centuries of germatic waves that it was finally
                > > possible to declare that there's no place like home. According to
                > > Calill, it was the Vandals, Alans, and Sueves whom inflected the
                > final
                > > blow to the Empire.
                > >
                > > As huge as the Rhine is, it is hard to imaging the surface
                becoming
                > > solid. If so it would be interesting to know where. Yet supposedly
                > > even in the 1800's if I recall correctly even the Baltic Sea is
                said
                > > to have froze over; or at least sometime durring the so called LIA
                > > "Little Ice Age" in which I did research, but for the most part
                came
                > > up empty minded at that time. But as far as ancient waterways,
                > Keyser,
                > > a british isralite speeks of an ancient river that lead to the
                > Baltic
                > > from the Mediterranean (supposedly the passage way that Scota and
                > the
                > > Milasian Egyptians took?)
                > >
                > > To be honest, I don't recall who it was even spoken of as to whom
                it
                > > was that considered themselves chief of the Suebi(Alied peoples
                of
                > foe
                > > enemies which basically could be said from either side).
                > >
                > > "The account in Germania is contradictory to that of the silent
                > > geographers in at least one major point. Tacitus viewed the
                Baltic
                > as
                > > the Suebian Sea and lists the seven tribes above as being in
                Suebian
                > > territory. The Suebi were among the Herminones of central
                Germany.
                > And
                > > yet Pliny, who is just as creditable, accounts for the Teutones as
                > > being Inguaeones, the Ingaevones of Tacitus. In Strabo, the Suebi
                > are
                > > to the south of the coast. The Suebian language went on to become
                > Old
                > > High German, while the Angles and Jutes were among the speakers
                of
                > Old
                > > Saxon.
                > >
                > > An explanation no doubt existed, whether one of the authors
                > > misunderstood or the distribution of tribes in the 1st century
                > > resulted from an overlay of different historical schemes. At this
                > time
                > > there is no verifiable answer to the question and no good reason
                for
                > > forcing an answer by excluding evidence. History is by nature
                often
                > > contradictory. It is only an incomplete story."
                > >
                > > http://www.bahamasiworld.com/wiki-Angles
                > >
                > > I'll find more about this story when I have more time
                > >
                > > be well,
                > > jamey
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Jamey & Ancient Waterways members,
                > > > Here is a later (2005) article by Stephen Stewart, the writer
                of
                > the
                > > > 2003 news clip you sent. This one is a general reference to
                > possible
                > > > very ancient settlers to the Orkney islands.
                > > > MSE
                > > >
                > > > "World Archaeology News 23 May 2005 Did the Vikings drive
                > natives
                > > > from the isles? STEPHEN STEWART May 17 2005
                > > >
                > > > VIKING settlers may have "ethnically cleansed" Scotland's
                > islands,
                > > > waging a genocidal campaign against native Pictish tribes as
                they
                > > > arrived, according to evidence uncovered by archaeologists.
                > > >
                > > > Excavations on Orkney could finally settle a centuries-old
                > historical
                > > > debate over whether the Norsemen integrated with indigenous
                > locals or
                > > > slaughtered them at the dawn of the last millennium.
                > > >
                > > > Work at Langskaill farm, in Westray, shows signs of a Pictish
                > culture
                > > > vanish abruptly with the arrival of the Scandinavians,
                > underlining
                > > > the theory that the Northern Isles were taken violently.
                > > >
                > > > The dig uncovered remains dating from the early Iron Age
                through
                > to
                > > > the fourteenth century, with the pre-Norse evidence
                disappearing
                > > > suddenly as the settlers arrived in larger numbers.
                > > >
                > > > A Viking-Norse longhouse was unearthed, which was built
                directly
                > over
                > > > an earlier earth house and part of a Pictish house, probably
                > > > indicating a takeover of the site and adjoining lands.
                > > >
                > > > Olwyn Owen, a senior inspector of ancient monuments with
                Historic
                > > > Scotland, which was one of the excavation's sponsors,
                said: "This
                > > > site shows a very clear change of material culture but it
                doesn't
                > > > show what actually happened to the Picts. That is very
                difficult
                > to
                > > > prove."
                > > >
                > > > In recent years, the image of the Vikings has been transformed
                > from
                > > > bloodthirsty pagan savages to that of sophisticated merchants
                > with
                > > > exceptional navigational and engineering skills. The finds on
                > Orkney,
                > > > however, are expected to reopen the entire debate.
                > > >
                > > > Brian Smith, an archivist at Shetland Islands Council, said the
                > new
                > > > evidence was a further hint of some sort of displacement of the
                > > > native population.
                > > >
                > > > He said: "(Langskaill) lends a local dimension to the idea that
                > there
                > > > was strife.
                > > >
                > > > "All that the archaeologists (in favour of the integration
                > theory)
                > > > have to argue is the fact that some Pictish detritus has been
                > found
                > > > in Norse archaeological levels, and that there is a stone in
                > Bressay
                > > > in Shetland that some think contains Norse and Celtic words.
                > > >
                > > > "In the first case, co-existence is of course not the only
                > > > explanation.
                > > >
                > > > "In the second, doubt has been expressed by the experts about
                the
                > > > alleged linguistic material on the Bressay stone, and there is
                no
                > way
                > > > of getting a precise date for it."
                > > >
                > > > Ms Owen said archaeology may be unable to provide a complete
                > picture
                > > > of the process of Viking settlement.
                > > >
                > > > She said: "There is a danger that the argument becomes too
                > simplistic
                > > > with one group arguing the Vikings slaughtered in order to take
                > the
                > > > island over and the other maintaining they started living
                > peacefully.
                > > > It may not be that simple."
                > > >
                > > > The finds inside the earth house related to the two main
                periods
                > of
                > > > use. The Iron Age remains comprised mainly of soil deposits,
                but
                > > > there were also a number of pieces of whale bone and stone
                tools.
                > > >
                > > > The later Viking-Norse period deposits included midden, made up
                > of
                > > > shells, fishbones, fragments of soapstone vessels and human
                > > > coprolites or fossilised excrement".
                > > >
                > > > (From:
                http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4562853.stm)
                > > >
                > ___________________________________________________________________
                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m.
                clark
                > > > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
                > > > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would
                > find
                > > > this
                > > > > somewhat interesting.
                > > > > ---------------------------------------------
                > > > >
                > > > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
                > > > >
                > > > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
                > > > >
                > > > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
                > > > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
                > > > > site in Britain, new research reveals
                > > > > today.
                > > > > Archaeologists using the latest
                > > > > techniques to map under the soil
                > > > > discovered the world heritage site
                > > > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
                > > > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
                > > > > Age times.
                > > > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
                > > > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
                > > > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the
                likes
                > of
                > > > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
                > > > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a
                > geophysical
                > > > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
                > > > patterns
                > > > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
                > > > >
                > > > > Rest at
                > > > >
                > > > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
                > > > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
                > > > >
                > > > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
                > > > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
                > > > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
                > > > >
                > > > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
                > > > >
                > > > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
                > > > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
                > > > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
                > > > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
                > > > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
                > > > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
                > > > >
                > > > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
                > > > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
                > > > > Tactius;p.133
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and
                clever,
                > > > boat-
                > > > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts
                and
                > > > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish
                their
                > > > life-
                > > > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours:
                the
                > > > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-
                > boat
                > > > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild,
                open
                > > > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland;
                between
                > > > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of
                > Wales and
                > > > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and
                > Loire,
                > > > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and
                > Jerusalem.
                > > > >
                > > > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven
                > little
                > > > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of
                > Alba." -
                > > > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
                > > > > 1982, p.13.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
                > > > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for
                religious
                > > > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would
                have
                > known
                > > > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
                > > > mythical
                > > > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700
                > years
                > > > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
                > > > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can
                only
                > > > wonder
                > > > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he
                > would
                > > > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed
                from
                > all
                > > > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district
                isn't
                > the
                > > > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • james m. clark jr.
                Hi All, For those who were somewhat disappointed in the link error on this subject, and perhaps didn t look further at the time or since then. Here is that
                Message 7 of 10 , May 3, 2008
                  Hi All,

                  For those who were somewhat disappointed in the link error on this
                  subject, and perhaps didn't look further at the time or since then.
                  Here is that link from the journalist who wrote it. But updated
                  information on the site in Orkney is still a knowledge quest for me.


                  Here is the link: (sorry about that)
                  http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/brodgarcapital.htm

                  be well,
                  jamey

                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr."
                  <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
                  > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this
                  > somewhat interesting.
                  > ---------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
                  >
                  > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
                  >
                  > ORKNEY may have been the largest
                  > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
                  > site in Britain, new research reveals
                  > today.
                  > Archaeologists using the latest
                  > techniques to map under the soil
                  > discovered the world heritage site
                  > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
                  > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
                  > Age times.
                  > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
                  > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
                  > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
                  > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
                  > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
                  > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the patterns
                  > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
                  >
                  > Rest at
                  >
                  > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
                  > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
                  >
                  > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
                  > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
                  > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
                  >
                  > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
                  >
                  > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
                  > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
                  > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
                  > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
                  > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
                  > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
                  >
                  > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
                  > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
                  > Tactius;p.133
                  >
                  >
                  > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever, boat-
                  > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
                  > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their life-
                  > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
                  > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
                  > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
                  > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
                  > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
                  > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
                  > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
                  >
                  > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
                  > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
                  > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
                  > 1982, p.13.
                  >
                  >
                  > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
                  > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
                  > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
                  > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this mythical
                  > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
                  > earlier prior to the first millennium.
                  > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only wonder
                  > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
                  > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
                  > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
                  > motherland of Germany or England after all.
                  >
                • Susan
                  Jamie, All, Re: the Orkneys as a ceremonial capital of ancient Britain, I am inserting a Timeline of the Orkney Islands from the article Jamie sent. I also
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 4, 2008

                    Jamie, All,

                    Re: the Orkneys as a ceremonial capital of ancient Britain, I am inserting a Timeline of the Orkney Islands from the article Jamie sent. I also believe one can clearly distinguish between a pre-Viking Orkney society and Viking Orkney kingdom,  and that much of the Neolithic ceremonial construction was established during the pre-Viking period.

                    Coincidently, after reading the Orkney Islands site Jamies sent, I found a March 17, 2008 article about a rare piece of Neolithic stone art discovered recently on a beach in Orkney, concentric circles within the object indicate something of significance to researchers. The stone relic "is perhaps from a chambered tomb and could be as old as 5000-6000 years, and would have possibly been used as a ceremonial sacred object" .... part of the Neolithic world linked by the Irish Sea, older than the Egyptian pyramids. See: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987028/posts

                    ________________________

                    A Timeline of Orkney History from: http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/timeline.htm

                    YearEvent
                    3800BC (circa)The Knap of Howar built and occupied on the island of Papa Westray.
                    3200BC (circa)Skara Brae occupied. At around about the same time, the Barnhouse Settlement, close to the present site of the Standing Stones o' Stenness ring was in use.
                    2900BC (circa)Standing Stones o' Stenness and the Ring o' Brodgar may have been constructed around about this time - give or take a few hundred years.
                    2800BC (circa)The chambered tomb Maeshowe constructed
                    2700BC (circa)[Pyramids in Egypt]
                    2200BC (circa)The village of Skara Brae abandoned


                    50ADBroch of Gurness in early stages of development.
                    84 (circa)Agricola's supposed visit to Orkney.
                    563[Saint Columba in Scotland]
                    580Cormac's missionary journey to Orkney.
                    787[First recorded appearance of Vikings in England.]
                    800 (circa)[First period of Norse colonisation begins.]
                    841[Rouen taken by the Norsemen.]
                    850 (circa)Harald Fairhair's legendary voyage to Orkney – earldom established.
                    853[Norse kingdom established in Dublin.]
                    871[Alfred the Great King of England.]
                    874 (circa)Sigurd I is earl.
                    885[Siege of Paris by the Norsemen.]
                    890 (circa)Battle with Maelbrigte of Ross (the villainous "Tusker" of Orcadian folklore) – Earl Sigurd's death resulted (see The Ba' Page for more details).

                    Guttorm, Sigurd's son, is earl
                    900Battle of Harfursfirth – Second period of Norse colonisation begins.
                    [Iceland colonised by Norsemen]
                    907 (circa)Hallad, son of Rognvald, Earl of Moeri, earl
                    893 (circa)Einar I ("Torf Einar") Rognvaldsson is earl. (Referred to as Torf Einar as he is credited with introducing the tradition of burning peats as fuel to the islands)
                    912[Rolf or Rollo, Rognvald's son, Duke of Normandy.]
                    946-976 (circa)Arnkell, Erlend I, and Thorfinn I, Einar's sons, rule as joint earls.
                    950[King Eric Bloodaxe expelled from Norway.]
                    954King Eric Bloodaxe and Earls Arnkell and Erlend fall at battle of Stainsmoor.
                    976-991 (circa)Arnfinn, Havard, Ljot, and Hlodvir, Thorfinn's sons, are joint earls.
                    980[Discovery of Greenland by the Norsemen.]
                    986[Possible Discovery of America (Vinland) by the Norsemen.]
                    991 (circa)Sigurd II Hlodvirsson, is earl.
                    995Sigurd forced to convert to Christianity by Olaf Trygvesson.
                    998[Olaf Trygvesson is King of Norway.]
                    1014Battle of Clontarf - Earl Sigurd is killed, carrying the cursed Raven Banner.

                    Sumarlid, Einar II, Brusi, and (later) Thorfinn II, Sigurd's sons, joint-earls.
                    1030Death of Earl Brusi - Thorfinn II sole earl

                    Rognvald, Brusi's son, claims a share of the earldom.
                    1045Battle in the Pentland Firth (south of Orkney) between Rognvald and Thorfinn.
                    1045Earl Rognvald murdered on the island of Papa Stronsay.
                    1056[Malcolm Canmore is King of Scotland.]
                    1057Christ's Kirk in the West Mainland parish of Birsay founded. The exact location of the kirk is still hotly debated today, with some believing it stood within the offshore island settlement known the Brough o' Birsay and others that it stood where Birsay village is now found.
                    1065Death of Thorfinn; his sons Paul I. and Erlend II are joint-earls
                    1066Harald Hardradi visits Orkney.
                    [Harold Godwinsson is King of England]
                    [Battle of Stamford Bridge]
                    [The Norman Conquest - Invasion of Duke William of Normandy - Battle of Hastings]
                    1087[Moorish Empire established in Spain]
                    1096[First Crusade]
                    1098Magnus (Barefoot), King of Norway, sends the Orkney earls to Norway, and makes his son Sigurd "King" of Orkney
                    1103[Death of King Magnus of Norway - Sigurd is made King of Norway]
                    1105Hakon Paulsson and Magnus Erlendsson are joint-earls.
                    1117Murder of Earl Magnus (St Magnus) in Egilsay
                    1123Death of Earl Hakon; his sons Harald I and Paul II joint-earls
                    1127Death of Harald - Paul sole earl
                    1129Rognvald II (Kali) appointed joint-earl by King Sigurd of Norway
                    1135Rognvald's first expedition to claim the earldom
                    St. Magnus Church, Egilsay, founded
                    1136Rognvald's second expedition to acquire Earldom- Earl Paul kidnapped by Sweyn Asleifson
                    1137St Magnus Cathedral founded in Kirkwall
                    1138Harald II Maddadson joint-earl
                    1151Norse Crusaders (Jerusalem-farers) returning from the Holy Land winter in Orkney and break into Maeshowe seeking shelter (see also Maeshowe's Treasure and Maeshowe's Runes)
                    1151Earl Rognvald's Crusade to Jerusalem
                    1151Erlend III is made joint-earl
                    1152-1154The War of the Three Earls - Rognvald, Harald and Erlend fight for possession of the Earldom.
                    1154Death of Erlend III - killed off the island of Damsay by Rognvald and Harald.
                    1158Earl Rognvald killed. Harald sole Earl.
                    1171

                    Sweyn Asleifson's last cruise and death at Dublin.
                    [English invasion of Ireland]

                    1194[Battle of Floravoe in Norway. The defeat of the "island-beardies"]
                    1196Shetland separated from the Orkney Earldom
                    1197Harald III becomes joint Earl (grandson of Rognvald)
                    1198Death of Harald III - killed by Earl Harald Maddadsson.
                    1206Death of Harald II Maddadson. His sons David and John become joint earls.
                    1214Death of Earl David
                    [Alexander II becomes King of Scotland]
                    1215[Magna Carta granted in England]
                    1222Bishop Adam burned in Caithness.
                    1231Death of John; last Earl of the Norse line.
                    1236 (circa)Magnus II, the first of the Angus line, becomes Earl.
                    Ship carrying the chief men of the Orkney islands is lost on the voyage between Norway and Orkney.
                    1239Gilbride (Gilbert) I becomes earl
                    1249[Alexander III is king of Scotland]
                    1256Magnus III is made earl.
                    1263King Hakon of Norway's expedition to his western empire.
                    The Battle of Largs
                    Haakon dies in Kirkwall.
                    1273Magnus IV is earl.
                    1284Jon II Magnusson is earl.
                    1286[Death of Alexander III of Scotland. Margaret of Norway becomes heiress to the Scottish Crown]
                    1292[Death of Margaret - "the Maid of Norway"]
                    1306[Robert the Bruce is King of Scotland. Local tradition has it that Bruce passed the winter of 1306-07 in Orkney, not in the island of Rathlin]
                    1310Magnus V is earl.
                    1312[Treaty of Perth confirmed at Inverness]
                    1314[Battle of Bannockburn]
                    1321The death of Magnus V marks the end of the Angus line.
                    Malise of Stratherne becomes Earl.
                    1353Erngisl is made earl
                    1357Death of Erngisl; the end of the Stratherne line.
                    1379

                    Henry I (St. Clair) is made earl.Shetland restored to the Earldom
                    [The union of Norway, Sweden and Denmark - the Union of Calmar]

                    _________________

                    MSE
                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    >
                    > For those who were somewhat disappointed in the link error on this
                    > subject, and perhaps didn't look further at the time or since then.
                    > Here is that link from the journalist who wrote it. But updated
                    > information on the site in Orkney is still a knowledge quest for me.
                    >
                    >
                    > Here is the link: (sorry about that)
                    > http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/brodgarcapital.htm
                    >
                    > be well,
                    > jamey
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr."
                    > jameyboy@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
                    > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this
                    > > somewhat interesting.
                    > > ---------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
                    > >
                    > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
                    > >
                    > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
                    > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
                    > > site in Britain, new research reveals
                    > > today.
                    > > Archaeologists using the latest
                    > > techniques to map under the soil
                    > > discovered the world heritage site
                    > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
                    > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
                    > > Age times.
                    > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
                    > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
                    > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
                    > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
                    > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
                    > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the patterns
                    > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
                    > >
                    > > Rest at
                    > >
                    > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
                    > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
                    > >
                    > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
                    > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
                    > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
                    > >
                    > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
                    > >
                    > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
                    > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
                    > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
                    > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
                    > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
                    > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
                    > >
                    > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
                    > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
                    > > Tactius;p.133
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever, boat-
                    > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
                    > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their life-
                    > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
                    > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
                    > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
                    > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
                    > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
                    > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
                    > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
                    > >
                    > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
                    > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
                    > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
                    > > 1982, p.13.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
                    > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
                    > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
                    > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this mythical
                    > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
                    > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
                    > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only wonder
                    > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
                    > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
                    > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
                    > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
                    > >
                    >
                  • james m. clark jr.
                    Thanks Susan, Dates and ages are significant but sometimes the traditions, myths and folklore don t alway coincide with events; especially if there is
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 14, 2008
                      Thanks Susan,

                      Dates and ages are significant but sometimes the traditions, myths and
                      folklore don't alway coincide with events; especially if there is
                      historical record of one or more of the same disregarding what is
                      suppose to be the historical method of the sometimes acclaimed
                      scientific method.

                      A good factual example would be the field work of archaeologist C.W.
                      Blean, and Miss. Keton on the 3 wars of Troy, opposed to Homers
                      conscrewity of a scientifically generally excepted single battle in
                      which Homer's historically crams, roughly, 500 years in one single
                      day. Whoever said he was blind must be speaking metaphorically of the
                      modern Homermic society or the Edger Casyians.

                      Up until 2 week ago on the history channel, I've read very very little
                      on what is termed the "Little Ice Age" that I have only really head
                      about. And what do I do? I fall asleep. After about 20 years of
                      frustration and searching for anything on it or more about it than I
                      know or wished to know. I almost want to believe it was deliberately
                      delayed based on findings of Iceman and the baffled the scientific
                      community. I believe it was in 98 when students took core samples of
                      the great lakes and it was suggested that an Ice Age itself could in
                      one sense or another happen within 10 yrs. Ten year and 10,000 year is
                      slightly different.

                      be well,
                      jamey









                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                      <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Jamie, All,
                      >
                      > Re: the Orkneys as a ceremonial capital of ancient Britain, I am
                      > inserting a Timeline of the Orkney Islands from the article Jamie sent.
                      > I also believe one can clearly distinguish between a pre-Viking Orkney
                      > society and Viking Orkney kingdom, and that much of the Neolithic
                      > ceremonial construction was established during the pre-Viking period.
                      >
                      > Coincidently, after reading the Orkney Islands site Jamies sent, I found
                      > a March 17, 2008 article about a rare piece of Neolithic stone art
                      > discovered recently on a beach in Orkney, concentric circles within the
                      > object indicate something of significance to researchers. The stone
                      > relic "is perhaps from a chambered tomb and could be as old as 5000-6000
                      > years, and would have possibly been used as a ceremonial sacred object"
                      > .... part of the Neolithic world linked by the Irish Sea, older than the
                      > Egyptian pyramids. See:
                      > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987028/posts
                      > <http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987028/posts>
                      >
                      > ________________________
                      >
                      > A Timeline of Orkney History from:
                      > http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/timeline.htm
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/timeline.htm>
                      > Year Event 3800BC (circa) The Knap of Howar
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/knaphowar.htm> built and occupied on
                      > the island of Papa Westray. 3200BC (circa) Skara Brae
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/index.html> occupied. At
                      > around about the same time, the Barnhouse Settlement
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/barnhouse/index.html> , close to the
                      > present site of the Standing Stones o' Stenness
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/standingstones/index.html> ring was
                      > in use. 2900BC (circa) Standing Stones o' Stenness
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/standingstones/index.html> and the
                      > Ring o' Brodgar <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brodgar/index.html>
                      > may have been constructed around about this time - give or take a few
                      > hundred years. 2800BC (circa) The chambered tomb Maeshowe
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/index.html> constructed
                      > 2700BC (circa) [Pyramids in Egypt] 2200BC (circa) The village of
                      > Skara Brae <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/index.html>
                      > abandoned 50AD Broch of Gurness
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brochs/gurness/index.html> in early
                      > stages of development. 84 (circa) Agricola's supposed visit to Orkney
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/romans.htm> . 563 [Saint Columba in
                      > Scotland] 580 Cormac's missionary journey to Orkney. 787 [First
                      > recorded appearance of Vikings in England.] 800 (circa) [First period
                      > of Norse colonisation begins.] 841 [Rouen taken by the Norsemen.]
                      > 850 (circa) Harald Fairhair's legendary voyage to Orkney
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/index.html> –
                      > earldom established
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/earldom.htm> . 853
                      > [Norse kingdom established in Dublin.] 871 [Alfred the Great King of
                      > England.] 874 (circa) Sigurd I is earl.
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sigmighty.htm> 885
                      > [Siege of Paris by the Norsemen.] 890 (circa) Battle with Maelbrigte
                      > of Ross
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sigmighty.htm> (the
                      > villainous "Tusker" of Orcadian folklore) – Earl Sigurd's death
                      > resulted (see The Ba' Page
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/tradition/bagame/index.html> for more
                      > details).
                      >
                      > Guttorm, Sigurd's son, is earl 900 Battle of Harfursfirth –
                      > Second period of Norse colonisation begins.
                      > [Iceland colonised by Norsemen] 907 (circa) Hallad, son of Rognvald,
                      > Earl of Moeri, earl 893 (circa) Einar I ("Torf Einar") Rognvaldsson is
                      > earl <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/torfeinar.htm> .
                      > (Referred to as Torf Einar as he is credited with introducing the
                      > tradition of burning peats as fuel to the islands) 912 [Rolf or
                      > Rollo, Rognvald's son, Duke of Normandy.] 946-976 (circa) Arnkell,
                      > Erlend I, and Thorfinn I, Einar's sons, rule as joint earls. 950
                      > [King Eric Bloodaxe expelled from Norway.] 954 King Eric Bloodaxe and
                      > Earls Arnkell and Erlend fall at battle of Stainsmoor. 976-991 (circa)
                      > Arnfinn, Havard, Ljot, and Hlodvir, Thorfinn's sons, are joint earls.
                      > 980 [Discovery of Greenland by the Norsemen.] 986 [Possible
                      > Discovery of America (Vinland) by the Norsemen.] 991 (circa) Sigurd II
                      > Hlodvirsson
                      >
                      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/index.htm\
                      > l> , is earl. 995 Sigurd forced to convert to Christianity by Olaf
                      > Trygvesson.
                      >
                      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/earlsigur\
                      > dconvert.htm> 998 [Olaf Trygvesson is King of Norway.] 1014 Battle
                      > of Clontarf - Earl Sigurd is killed, carrying the cursed Raven Banner.
                      >
                      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/index.htm\
                      > l>
                      >
                      > Sumarlid, Einar II, Brusi, and (later) Thorfinn II, Sigurd's sons,
                      > joint-earls. 1030 Death of Earl Brusi - Thorfinn II sole earl
                      >
                      > Rognvald, Brusi's son, claims a share of the earldom. 1045 Battle in
                      > the Pentland Firth (south of Orkney) between Rognvald and Thorfinn.
                      > 1045 Earl Rognvald murdered on the island of Papa Stronsay. 1056
                      > [Malcolm Canmore is King of Scotland.] 1057 Christ's Kirk in the West
                      > Mainland parish of Birsay founded. The exact location of the kirk is
                      > still hotly debated today, with some believing it stood within the
                      > offshore island settlement known the Brough o' Birsay
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/broughofbirsay/index.html> and others
                      > that it stood where Birsay village is now found. 1065 Death of
                      > Thorfinn; his sons Paul I. and Erlend II are joint-earls 1066 Harald
                      > Hardradi visits Orkney.
                      > [Harold Godwinsson is King of England]
                      > [Battle of Stamford Bridge]
                      > [The Norman Conquest - Invasion of Duke William of Normandy - Battle of
                      > Hastings] 1087 [Moorish Empire established in Spain] 1096 [First
                      > Crusade] 1098 Magnus (Barefoot), King of Norway, sends the Orkney
                      > earls to Norway, and makes his son Sigurd "King" of Orkney 1103
                      > [Death of King Magnus of Norway - Sigurd is made King of Norway] 1105
                      > Hakon Paulsson and Magnus Erlendsson are joint-earls. 1117 Murder of
                      > Earl Magnus <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/stmagnus/index.html> (St
                      > Magnus) in Egilsay 1123 Death of Earl Hakon; his sons Harald I and
                      > Paul II joint-earls 1127 Death of Harald - Paul sole earl 1129
                      > Rognvald II (Kali) appointed joint-earl by King Sigurd of Norway 1135
                      > Rognvald's first expedition to claim the earldom
                      > St. Magnus Church, Egilsay, founded 1136 Rognvald's second expedition
                      > to acquire Earldom- Earl Paul kidnapped by Sweyn Asleifson
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sweyn/index.html>
                      > 1137 St Magnus Cathedral
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/stmagnus/magcath.htm> founded in
                      > Kirkwall 1138 Harald II Maddadson joint-earl 1151 Norse Crusaders
                      > (Jerusalem-farers) returning from the Holy Land winter in Orkney and
                      > break into Maeshowe
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/index.html> seeking shelter
                      > (see also Maeshowe's Treasure
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/maeshtreasure.htm> and
                      > Maeshowe's Runes
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/maeshrunes.htm> ) 1151 Earl
                      > Rognvald's Crusade to Jerusalem 1151 Erlend III is made joint-earl
                      > 1152-1154 The War of the Three Earls - Rognvald, Harald and Erlend fight
                      > for possession of the Earldom. 1154 Death of Erlend III - killed off
                      > the island of Damsay by Rognvald and Harald. 1158 Earl Rognvald
                      > killed. Harald sole Earl. 1171
                      > Sweyn Asleifson's last cruise and death at Dublin.
                      > [English invasion of Ireland]
                      > 1194 [Battle of Floravoe in Norway. The defeat of the
                      > "island-beardies"] 1196 Shetland separated from the Orkney Earldom
                      > 1197 Harald III becomes joint Earl (grandson of Rognvald) 1198 Death
                      > of Harald III - killed by Earl Harald Maddadsson. 1206 Death of Harald
                      > II Maddadson. His sons David and John become joint earls. 1214 Death
                      > of Earl David
                      > [Alexander II becomes King of Scotland] 1215 [Magna Carta granted in
                      > England] 1222 Bishop Adam burned in Caithness. 1231 Death of John;
                      > last Earl of the Norse line
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/earls.htm> . 1236
                      > (circa) Magnus II, the first of the Angus line, becomes Earl.
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/angusline.htm>
                      > Ship carrying the chief men of the Orkney islands is lost on the voyage
                      > between Norway and Orkney. 1239 Gilbride (Gilbert) I becomes earl
                      > 1249 [Alexander III is king of Scotland] 1256 Magnus III is made
                      > earl. 1263 King Hakon of Norway's expedition to his western empire.
                      > The Battle of Largs
                      > Haakon dies in Kirkwall.
                      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/haakondeath.htm> 1273 Magnus IV is
                      > earl. 1284 Jon II Magnusson is earl. 1286 [Death of Alexander III
                      > of Scotland. Margaret of Norway becomes heiress to the Scottish Crown]
                      > 1292 [Death of Margaret - "the Maid of Norway"] 1306 [Robert the
                      > Bruce is King of Scotland. Local tradition has it that Bruce passed the
                      > winter of 1306-07 in Orkney, not in the island of Rathlin] 1310
                      > Magnus V is earl. 1312 [Treaty of Perth confirmed at Inverness]
                      > 1314 [Battle of Bannockburn] 1321 The death of Magnus V marks the end
                      > of the Angus line.
                      > Malise of Stratherne becomes Earl. 1353 Erngisl is made earl 1357
                      > Death of Erngisl; the end of the Stratherne line. 1379
                      > Henry I (St. Clair)
                      >
                      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/henrysinclair/index.\
                      > html> is made earl.Shetland restored to the Earldom
                      > [The union of Norway, Sweden and Denmark - the Union of Calmar]
                      >
                      > _________________
                      > MSE--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
                      > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi All,
                      > >
                      > > For those who were somewhat disappointed in the link error on this
                      > > subject, and perhaps didn't look further at the time or since then.
                      > > Here is that link from the journalist who wrote it. But updated
                      > > information on the site in Orkney is still a knowledge quest for me.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Here is the link: (sorry about that)
                      > > http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/brodgarcapital.htm
                      > >
                      > > be well,
                      > > jamey
                      > >
                      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr."
                      > > jameyboy@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
                      > > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find
                      > this
                      > > > somewhat interesting.
                      > > > ---------------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
                      > > >
                      > > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
                      > > >
                      > > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
                      > > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
                      > > > site in Britain, new research reveals
                      > > > today.
                      > > > Archaeologists using the latest
                      > > > techniques to map under the soil
                      > > > discovered the world heritage site
                      > > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
                      > > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
                      > > > Age times.
                      > > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
                      > > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
                      > > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
                      > > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
                      > > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
                      > > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
                      > patterns
                      > > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
                      > > >
                      > > > Rest at
                      > > >
                      > > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
                      > > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
                      > > >
                      > > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
                      > > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
                      > > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
                      > > >
                      > > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
                      > > >
                      > > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
                      > > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
                      > > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
                      > > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
                      > > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
                      > > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
                      > > >
                      > > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
                      > > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
                      > > > Tactius;p.133
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
                      > boat-
                      > > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
                      > > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
                      > life-
                      > > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
                      > > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
                      > > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
                      > > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
                      > > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
                      > > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
                      > > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
                      > > >
                      > > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
                      > > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
                      > > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
                      > > > 1982, p.13.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
                      > > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
                      > > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
                      > > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
                      > mythical
                      > > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
                      > > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
                      > > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
                      > wonder
                      > > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
                      > > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
                      > > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
                      > > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • james m clark jr
                      Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain? Read all of this article with a FREE trial? http://www.highbeam.com/reg/reg1.aspx It could be a simular
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 15, 2010
                        Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?

                        Read all of this article with a FREE trial?
                        http://www.highbeam.com/reg/reg1.aspx

                        It could be a simular updated version
                        Has anyone noticed this in the past few years?

                        be well,
                        jmcjr


                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
                        > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this
                        > somewhat interesting.
                        > ---------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
                        >
                        > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
                        >
                        > ORKNEY may have been the largest
                        > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
                        > site in Britain, new research reveals
                        > today.
                        > Archaeologists using the latest
                        > techniques to map under the soil
                        > discovered the world heritage site
                        > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
                        > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
                        > Age times.
                        > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
                        > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
                        > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
                        > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
                        > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
                        > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the patterns
                        > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
                        >
                        > Rest at
                        >
                        > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
                        > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
                        >
                        > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
                        > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
                        > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
                        >
                        > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
                        >
                        > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
                        > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
                        > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
                        > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
                        > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
                        > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
                        >
                        > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
                        > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
                        > Tactius;p.133
                        >
                        >
                        > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever, boat-
                        > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
                        > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their life-
                        > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
                        > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
                        > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
                        > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
                        > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
                        > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
                        > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
                        >
                        > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
                        > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
                        > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
                        > 1982, p.13.
                        >
                        >
                        > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
                        > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
                        > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
                        > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this mythical
                        > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
                        > earlier prior to the first millennium.
                        > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only wonder
                        > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
                        > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
                        > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
                        > motherland of Germany or England after all.
                        >
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