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3606Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: [Old Copper Comp lex and Ancient Waterways America] Re Don comment: “still looking for the elusive...

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  • C Traylor
    Dec 3, 2013
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      Thanks, Ted and all:  "The Cave of Forgotten Dreams,"  today I ordered a DVD from Amazon.com 

      On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

      Thanks Bill Tiffee for the post below this comment.  

      The archeologists at the Mississippi Valley Archeology Center in LaCrosse, Wisconsin, mention that there was event around that time period that they refer to as the little ice age.  It is at about that time that the Oneota Culture seems to have moved away from the coulee region of Wisconsin after many years of successful habitation.

      An entire garden was covered under a sand bank, preserving things like hills of corn that raised the garden beds above frost for an extended growing season.  When excavated the profiles in the trenches showed the dark rows of hills of vegetables, and the sand that encased them when a flood collapsed the sandbank above them onto the prepared field.  A nearby pit had a very large catfish that was eaten, using clam shells as spoons and plates as the roasted fish was consumed.  The trash was thrown back into the roasting pit.  It was estimated that more than a hundred people fed at this dinner.  

      In following years there is little evidence of white tail deer in the trash pits.  Was it a lack of food, an advancement of hunting technology, that wiped out the deer population.  There are only clues to what happened without the absolute proof of a climate disaster affecting this culture.  I have read in National Geographic that a huge volcano is estimated to have erupted that was bigger than Krakatowa, in relatively the same part of the globe.  This easily could have worldwide ramifications to climate.  

      Even as so many scientific advancements to dating and interpreting artifact finds, improve and are added to basic digging research, we will never know all there is to know about the ancient past.  Doesn't stop my mind from imagining.  The film maker Werner Herzog made a great movie to watch, called "Cave of Forgotten Dreams".  He has made movies on all continents, but this is his first venture into the past.   Some film buffs say that some of the cave scenes filmed in France are the best use of 3 D filming to date.   The cave and the remains of the art of its inhabitants, were sealed long ago with a rockslide.  The dates are tens of thousands of years older than Las Caux and Altamira.  The art inside is sparkly and covered by calcite that has dripped over the cave walls and floors.

      Do some armchair exploring and rent the film from netflix or get a copy from your local library on your interlibrary loan program.   

      Thanks for the wonderful post below.

      Theodore Sojka
      On Dec 3, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Bill Tiffee wrote:

      Bill Tiffee2:18pm Dec 3
      Re Don comment: “still looking for the elusive Bronze Age Javlin, Spear points,,,the Arrowheads of bronze, the axes of bronze & other tools that should be here by the hundreds of thousands over several thousand years of Bronze age Old Worlder's creating the mega civilization thru out the continent....no trash, even...how could it be so clean of these metal cultural items.”
      I think archaeologists make a lot of rash assumptions about what they can expect as evidence of contact 3,000 years ago based on modern analogies such as trash on the moon, Antarctica, or the trinkets Europeans manufactured to trade with Natives. Let’s look at the record. Archaeologists failed to uncover a single one of over ONE MILLION European artifacts when they first evacuated the Jamestown fort site in the 1950’s, and erroneously concluded the fort had fallen into the river. Despite De Soto marching an army through the Southeastern US: “Incredibly, only one site in North America can be linked to Soto beyond a shadow of a doubt. This the army’s 1539-40 winter camp, discovered in 1986 in downtown Tallahassee by archaeologist Calvin Jones.” The Lewis and Clark expedition traveled a well marked path, and carried specially designed coins to give Indians, but there is not a single physical artifact of that expedition that has ever been recovered.
      Larry is correct that Bronze is linked to war in the Old World, but as a military technology, it may have been deliberately withheld from the New World until much later, and you do need tin to make bronze. I think the people of this region had perfectly good weapons to kill one another. The evidence is that a sharp climate downturn c. 1200 in northern Europe coincided with the invasion of the Sea Peoples (the “northerners in their islands”) in the Mediterranean, the collapse of Bronze Age civilizations in Crete and Greece, and the abandonment of significant areas of northern Europe. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the Adena and Olmec cultures suddenly spring up c. 1200 BCE when there are historic migration movements in the Old (there are clear indications of West African, European and Chinese influences in the Olmec culture; the Shang Dynasty in China also collapses c. 1200 BCE). The Iron Age would have removed much of the incentive to make the dangerous journey to obtain copper, so trade and contact would have likely greatly diminished after that time. Is there evidence that mining in the Great Lakes diminished after 1200 BCE?
      I also don’t have a lot of confidence that archaeologists would even recognize a Bronze Age European tool or weapon if they saw it. Janet Sutherland famously found the first evidence of Norse contact in the Canadian Arctic by wondering around a nice warm museum, where she discovered the Norse artifacts misclassified as Dorset.
      Dr. Alice Kehoe, as I never tire of pointing out on this site, found “technological parallels” between early Woodland pottery and that of the Erebolle culture of Sweden, and other parallels between the two cultures including “gouges, chipped adzes with polished bits, bone harpoons, U-Shaped fishhooks, perforated animal-canine pendants, beaver-incisor knives, bone or antler combs with effigy handles, daggers made of animal long bones” and “chalcedony flake knives.”
      The mounds built in the Nordic countries during this period bear a remarkable resemblance to those found among the Adena and Hopewell cultures, and may be linked to a European people called the Bell Beakers, who were known to be prospectors for copper. According to Dr. Kehoe, the “characteristic bell-beaker grave is a stone cist under a round ‘barrow,’ in which male burials were accompanied by a copper knife, arrows (with heads of flint, tanged-and-barbed or concave-based), and a perforated polished stone plaque interpreted as an archer’s wrist guard. Often included also buttons, carved bone pins with ribbed heads, and tubular copper beads.” 
      It is possible, she says, that “Woodland burial mounds, with the bodies in cists and accompanied by ceremonial ‘mortuary’ blades, bar gorgets that could be functionless wrist guards, copper beads, etc., may have been derived from Europe.” (A Hypothesis on the Origin of Northeastern American Pottery, Southwestern Journal of Anthropology, vol. 18, 1962 at 27)
      Kehoe says the Scandinavian middens have abundant cod bones, and that cod fishing could only be accomplished by venturing into the high seas in their skin curraghs, which she believes were capable of sailing west along the Irminger Current to Iceland, Greenland and the Americas, the same path as followed by the later Vikings.
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      This message is in English, thank our veterans

      for keeping the front lines .... over there.

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