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Re: [JyotishGroup] Evidence from Greek works about Indian astronomy [1 Attachment]

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  • Sunil Bhattacharjya
    Dear friends, Just by reading a couple of books of Meeus Mr. Kaul thinks that he knows everything about developments in Astronomy from the ancient times and
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 8, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear friends,

      Just by reading a couple of books of Meeus Mr. Kaul thinks that he knows everything about developments in Astronomy from the ancient times and that all the past stalwarts from the ancient times upto Samanta Chandrasekhar were idiots. Samanta Chandrasekhar wrote the Siddhianta Darpana in Sanskrit and he definitely knew that the treatment in the Suryasiddhanta too was geocentric.  Mr. Kaul is depending on the wrong translation of the verse 17.147 of the Siddhanta darpana as given by Arun Upadhyay.

      Regards,
      Sunil KB



      From: A K Kaul <jyotirved@...>
      To: "jyotishgroup@yahoogroups.com" <jyotishgroup@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: hinducalendar <HinduCalendar@yahoogroups.com>; Lalit Mishra <litsol@...>; Krishna Joshi <snjoshy@...>; "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>; "akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com" <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; mukti marg <mukti_marg@...>; "srinandan@..." <srinandan@...>; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; ar sudhirkumar <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; "bsingh@..." <bsingh@...>; worldbrahmanfederation canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; "bharathgyan@..." <bharathgyan@...>; "bibhumisra@..." <bibhumisra@...>; "ancientarchaeologist@..." <ancientarchaeologist@...>; "hariom4959@..." <hariom4959@...>; "gayatridevivasudev@..." <gayatridevivasudev@...>; "aareni@..." <aareni@...>; "mail@..." <mail@...>; "giravani@..." <giravani@...>; "indianarchaeology@..." <indianarchaeology@...>; "kalyan97@..." <kalyan97@...>; "vedakavi@..." <vedakavi@...>; "padmakarvartak@..." <padmakarvartak@...>; Dieter Koch <artizarrak@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>; mishra lalit <mishra.lalit@...>; sunil bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...>; "veerankp@..." <veerankp@...>; gopi maliwal <gopi.maliwal@...>; Shrikant Talageri <sgtalageri@...>; Francious GAUTIER <francoisgautier26@...>; Gautam Sen <gautam.sen@...>; "sohum@..." <sohum@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>; Arun Kumar Upadhyay <arunupadhyay30@...>
      Sent: Monday, April 8, 2013 9:37 AM
      Subject: [JyotishGroup] Evidence from Greek works about Indian astronomy [1 Attachment]

       
      Dear friends,
      Jai Shri  Ram!
      <Mr. Kaul has to be told that even if Einstein would have written a book on geocentric astronomy he would have considered the Earth as stationery.>
      I wish Samanta Chandrashekhar  had considered earth stationery even on the basis of geocentric astronomy!
      No.  He has taken the earth stationery only and only because the Surya Siddhanta and the puranas had said so!
      There is a full fledged discussion of this topic in as many as 161 verses of Bhoogola Sthiti Varnanam i.e. Chapter 17,  of the Siddhanta Darpan, and he has exerted every ounce of his energy to prove that the earth can never be either rotating or revolving!
      The attachment "sdidhanta-darpan-1" will really be an eye opener to anybody who is infatuated with the high standards of Hindu astronomy!
      As late as early twentieth century, Samanta Chandrashekha has said, Verse 147 ," God has made the earth stationery simply to show His own prowess".
      This is exactly like the statement of the Surya Siddhanta, "It was revealed to Maya Mahaasura by none other than Surya Bhagwaan Himself, and that too a couple of million years back"
      In verse 148, Samanta Chandra-shekhar  has said further, "Just as a human being does not give up his nature, God also is always busy in keeping the earth stationery and the nakshatras revolving around the same"
      This is just a sample of his arguments in favour of the earth being stationery and the zodiac with all the pomp and paraphernalia  revolving and even rotating around the same!
      There are quite a few other statements also, one more ludicrous than the other!
      It may be of interest to the members to know that I bought Siddhanta Darpan on the "advice" of Shri Sunil Bhattacharjya several years back,  to see as to how advanced Indian astronomy was.  But as usual, it appears he had not purchased the book himself, nor read it even in a library, as otherwise he would not be making such funny statements!
      Or is it that he has depended on his parokshya knowledge in this case as well and not on the actual facts?
      May be yes!
      You can well imagine that if this is the state of Hindu astronomy in twentieth century, how "magnificent'  it would have been in early centuries of CE, presuming for a moment that the Hindus had any planetary astronomy of their own at that point of time!
      In fact, I feel sad to have to wash this type of dirty linen in public, and that is why I had tried to avoid entering into such discussion, but now that my friend Shri Shivraj, egged on as he is by his "well wishers", wants me to spill the beans, I am afraid that I am left with no option!
      Jai Shri Ram!
      A K Kaul
      PS for Shri Shivraj:
      Is this the type of Hindu astronomy that the earth is stationery and the entire universe revolving as well as rotating around the same, that you believe the Greeks learnt from the Hindu astronomers?
      AKK
      --- In JyotishGroup@yahoogroups.com, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...> wrote:
      >
      Dear friends,

      Mr. Kaul wrote

      Quote
      This point had already been clarified in a very polite  manner by me that in India even in the early twentieth century astronomers like Samanta Chandrashekhar believed that the earth was stationery and the sun, moon, nay the entire universe is revolving round the same. (attachment Siddhanta-darpan).  They believed it simply because the Surya Siddhanta had said so!
      Unquote

      Mr. Kaul has to be told that even if Einstein would have written a book on geocentric astronomy he would have considered the Earth as stationery.

      Regards,
      Sunil KB


      From: shivraj singh <shivkhokra@...>
      To: A K Kaul <jyotirved@...>; hinducalendar <HinduCalendar@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: Lalit Mishra <litsol@...>; Krishna Joshi <snjoshy@...>; "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>; "akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com" <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; mukti marg <mukti_marg@...>; "srinandan@..." <srinandan@...>; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; ar sudhirkumar <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; "bsingh@..." <bsingh@...>; worldbrahmanfederation canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; "bharathgyan@..." <bharathgyan@...>; "bibhumisra@..." <bibhumisra@...>; "ancientarchaeologist@..." <ancientarchaeologist@...>; "hariom4959@..." <hariom4959@...>; "gayatridevivasudev@..." <gayatridevivasudev@...>; "aareni@..." <aareni@...>; "mail@..." <mail@...>; "giravani@..." <giravani@...>; "indianarchaeology@..." <indianarchaeology@...>; "kalyan97@..." <kalyan97@...>; "vedakavi@..." <vedakavi@...>; "padmakarvartak@..." <padmakarvartak@...>; Dieter Koch <artizarrak@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>; mishra lalit <mishra.lalit@...>; sunil bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...>; "veerankp@..." <veerankp@...>; gopi maliwal <gopi.maliwal@...>; Shrikant Talageri <sgtalageri@...>; Francious GAUTIER <francoisgautier26@...>; Gautam Sen <gautam.sen@...>; "sohum@..." <sohum@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>
      Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 8:54 AM
      Subject: Re: [HinduCalendar] Evidence from Greek works about Indian astronomy


      Dear Shri Kaul Dieterji,
          Here are some examples from Greek sources acknowledging Indian predictive science:

      a) Curtus Rufus in his "De Rebus gestis Alexandri Magni" edited by H Barden, published 1947 mentions that Indians knew and used predictive astrology, used amanta month and not purnimanta and used two pakshas in a month each containing 15 tithis. Curtus Rufus lived in 1st century A.D

        He does not mention that Greeks taught the predictive astrology to Indians!

      b) In the life by Apollonius (1st century A.D) of Tyana by Philostrasus are mentioned two Indian philosophers:
      "And as for Phraotes and Iarchas, the philosophers of the Indians, what have they done to win from you the reputation of being gods, unless the glory they acquired by their culture and virtue was their own"
      Furthemore Apollonius was given by Iarchas seven planetary 
      rings of which the appropriate one was to be worn by
      Apollonius on each planetary week day.

      So you see here also Greeks are mentioning Indian philsophers
      as "gods" of knowledge. Nothing about Greeks teaching Indians
      any Zodiac or Astronomy!

      c) Now let us come to Chronicon Paschale which mentions that Indians
      composed astronomy works at the time of Tower of Babel!

      Hope this helps!

      Shivraj
      PS: BTW I asked you for sources in Sanskrit and Prakrit talking about Alexander.
       

      From: A K Kaul <jyotirved@...>
      To: hinducalendar <HinduCalendar@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: Lalit Mishra <litsol@...>; Krishna Joshi <snjoshy@...>; "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>; "akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com" <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; mukti marg <mukti_marg@...>; "srinandan@..." <srinandan@...>; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; ar sudhirkumar <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; "bsingh@..." <bsingh@...>; worldbrahmanfederation canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; "bharathgyan@..." <bharathgyan@...>; "bibhumisra@..." <bibhumisra@...>; "ancientarchaeologist@..." <ancientarchaeologist@...>; "hariom4959@..." <hariom4959@...>; "gayatridevivasudev@..." <gayatridevivasudev@...>; "aareni@..." <aareni@...>; "mail@..." <mail@...>; "giravani@..." <giravani@...>; "indianarchaeology@..." <indianarchaeology@...>; "kalyan97@..." <kalyan97@...>; "vedakavi@..." <vedakavi@...>; "padmakarvartak@..." <padmakarvartak@...>; Dieter Koch <artizarrak@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>; "shivkhokra@..." <shivkhokra@...>; mishra lalit <mishra.lalit@...>; sunil bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@...>; "veerankp@..." <veerankp@...>; gopi maliwal <gopi.maliwal@...>; Shrikant Talageri <sgtalageri@...>; Francious GAUTIER <francoisgautier26@...>; Gautam Sen <gautam.sen@...>; "sohum@..." <sohum@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>
      Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 8:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [HinduCalendar] Re: [AIA] Re: The Ayanamsha Controversy!

      Shri ShivRaj Singhji,
      Jai Shri Ram!
      <When discussing the sophistication or lack thereof Greek astronomical knowledge I told you that "The Greeks had Sun plunge in the western ocean and did not really bother for how the Sun returned in the east during the night and the next morning.>
      This point had already been clarified in a very polite  manner by me that in India even in the early twentieth century astronomers like Samanta Chandrashekhar believed that the earth was stationery and the sun, moon, nay the entire universe is revolving round the same. (attachment Siddhanta-darpan).  They believed it simply because the Surya Siddhanta had said so!
      Thus, though I do not know what exactly the Greeks had said about the sun plunging into the Western ocean and why, but it is clear that every civilization has had some fads and foibles, India being no exception.  And that is what I meant when I said,  "Why are you trying to pry open all such deadwood by making unnecessary comparisons of different cultures?"
      But you did not want to take that statement lying down taking it as a personal affront to your "omniscience"
      <Compare this to Rg Ved  which does not mention Sun plunging into the sea as Greeks rather naively do. Instead RV Mantra 1.164.11 talks about twelve  spoked wheel (This is in some sense a motif of the zodiac) of Sun revolving around the firmament.">

       This mantra from the Rigveda talks about twelve months of a year, which also comprise 720 "sons-and-daughters", (as per this very mantra) thus clearly indicating days plus nights, which have absolutely nothing to do with Rashichakra! 
      <  Let me tell you this is no deadwood. You are trying to sell a lie that the Greeks were these sophisticated astronomers who taught rashis to India, I am merely asking you that people who did not even know where Sun went in the night don't seem that smart>
      Shri Shivrajji, you are going out on a limb to prove that predictive astrology emanated from India, and that also from the Vedas, and are deliberately overlooking the lacunae in a work of astronomy/astrology that was compiled as late as sixth century AD, viz. the Brihat Samhita,  that talks of the way the eclipses had been dealt with by its predecessors!  
      Even at that point of time, India had absolutely no idea about precession, as will be clear from the same work, but then you will just close your eyes to such hard and unpleasant facts!
      <You can read it another way. Till you and your team show some text sources from Greece which show their ability to use the zodiac and predict astrology using zodiac your claims sound rather lame.>
      You appear to be woefully short of any historical background to India's past or are deliberately closing your eyes to the same!
      The attachment Alberuni-Greeks makes it very clear that when Varahamihira was saying, "mlechhah hi yavnaah..." he was certainly referring to the Greeks!
      Pl. read what Alberuni has said further, "In former times, the Hindus used to acknowledge that the progress of science due to the Greeks is much more important than that which is due to themselves"!
      I think that is a sufficient proof that the Greeks were, according to the Hindus themselves,  more advanced than the Hindus!
      He has summarized the state of the Hindu mental setup in as succinct a manner as possible in the following words, "..And the Hindus believe that there is no country but theirs, no nation like theirs, no kings like theirs, no religion like theirs, no science like theirs.  They are haughty, foolishly vain, self-conceited, and stolid".
      You may also find the following words from Alberuni very interesting, "If they traveled and mixed with other nations, they would soon change their mind, for their ancestors were  not as narrow-minded as the present generation is."
      But it appears that these days, in spite of travelling far and wide, the Hindus are where they stood in eleventh century AD, trying somehow or the other to prove the superiority of their point of view over everything else, even if that point of view is absolutely baseless!
      <You can read it another way. Till you and your team show some text sources from Greece which show their ability to use the zodiac and predict astrology using zodiac your claims sound rather lame.>
      Edward C. Sachau, the translator of Alberui's India from Arabic into English, has listed as many as 21 "Greek books"!  Sachau has said (attachment Greek books) "The role which Greek literature plays in Alberuni's work in the distant country of the Paktyes and Gandhari is a singular fact in the history of civilization".
      More important than anything else is Sachau's statement, "Plato before the doors of India, perhaps in India itself"!
      It maybe news to you that Alberuni has referred to "year 1340 of Alexander" in his Indica, which corresponds to 1030 AD.  It being a regnal year, it must have been to commemorate some event even after about 14 years of Alexander's death, since he is said to have died in 323 BCE at Babylon (the cradle of phalita-jyotisha, ironically though!) 
      < You can read it another way. Till you and your team show some text sources from Greece which show their ability to use the zodiac and predict astrology using zodiac your claims sound rather lame.>
      Now, what other "text sources" do you want that the Greeks have had a very great influence on every aspect of the Hindus, especially on phalita-jyotisha and even ganita!
      Similarly, the comparative table of the names of Rashis from Varahamihira vis-a-vis the Greco-Chaldean nomenclature, as given by Dr. M N Saha and his colleagues,  also cannot leave anybody in doubt that they are of Greek origin!
      What other textual evidence do you want?
      Varahahimra has referred to "yavanas" at least about thirty times in his astrological works!
      And those yavanas were none other than the Greeks, as vouchsafed even by an outsider like Alberuni in eleventh century AD!
      What other textual evidence do you want?
      The attachment yavanas from the Encyclopedia Britannica also has said it that  the Greeks also were known as yavanas in India!
      What other textual evidence do you want?
      Now that I have provided you with all the detailed information about "Vedic astrology" vis-a-vis the Greeks, can you please quote even a single Veda or the Vedanga that has talked about the zodiacal signs and Mangal, Shani etc. planets, especially the Kalasapra yoga, in an unambiguous manner even in the least?
      No. You cannot!
      Jai Shri Ram!
      A K Kaul

      On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 9:48 PM, shivraj singh <shivkhokra@...> wrote:
       
      Dear Shri Kaul,

        When discussing the sophistication or lack thereof Greek astronomical knowledge I told you that "
      The Greeks had Sun plunge in the western ocean and did not really bother for how the Sun returned in the east during the night and the next morning.


      Compare this to Rg Ved  which does not mention Sun plunging into the sea as Greeks rather naively do. Instead RV Mantra 1.164.11 talks about twelve spoked wheel (This is in some sense a motif of the zodiac) of Sun revolving around the firmament."


      My question made you retort:

        "Why are you trying to pry open all such deadwood by making unnecessary comparisons of different cultures?"

          Let me tell you this is no deadwood. You are trying to sell a lie that the Greeks were these sophisticated astronomers who taught rashis to India, I am merely asking you that people who did not even know where Sun went in the night don't seem that smart.

           You can read it another way. Till you and your team show some text sources from Greece which show their ability to use the zodiac and predict astrology using zodiac your claims sound rather lame.

      Regards,
      Shivraj



      From: A K Kaul <jyotirved@...>
      To: hinducalendar <HinduCalendar@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>; akandabaratam <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; Mukti Marg <Mukti_Marg@...>; "Srinandan@..." <Srinandan@...>; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>; Bal Ram Singh <bsingh@...>; World Brahman Federation Canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; Dr Bhudia Kutch Science Foundation <kutchsciencefoundation@...>; Bharath Gyan <bharathgyan@...>; Bibhu Dev Misra <bibhumisra@...>; "ancientarchaeologist@..." <ancientarchaeologist@...>; GANTA DIWAKAR <hariom4959@...>; Gayatri Devi Vasudev <gayatridevivasudev@...>; Dr Ayenger <aareni@...>; "mail@..." <mail@...>; N.R.Joshi <giravani@...>; "indianarchaeology@..." <indianarchaeology@...>; Srinivasan Kalyanaraman <kalyan97@...>; "vedakavi@..." <vedakavi@...>; Padmakar Vartak <padmakarvartak@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>; "artizarrak@..." <artizarrak@...>; "jyotishgroup@yahoogroups.com" <jyotishgroup@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 2:30 AM

      Subject: Re: [HinduCalendar] Re: [AIA] Re: The Ayanamsha Controversy!

       

      Shri Shivraj Singhji,
      Jai Shri Ram!
      <1) The Greeks had Sun plunge in the western ocean and did not
      really bother for how the Sun returned in the east during the night
      and the next morning.>
      The first and foremost thing that you must keep in mind is that at no point of time have I deprecated the Vedic lore or ever tried to say, even by mistake, that it was inferior to any other cultural document!
      All I am against is  the claims of some "pseudo-scholars" that  predictive astrology is  Vedic astrology!  And I have reasons for the same  because we do not find anything of the sort in any of the Vedas or the Vedanas!
      Besides, it is because of that very "Vedic astrology" that our calendar has become topsy turvy!
      You know all about that, but you will never enter into that discussion for reasons not difficult to discern!
      Now coming to the sun plunging in the ocean, I recall fully well a Vedic mantra during sandya-vandana in my younger days, which was, "....abjaa, gojaa, adrijaa, ritam vahat".
      I will give you the exact references about the same, but for the time being, let us try to understand its meaning:"(The sun) is born out of waters (ocean), it is born out of earth, it is born out of hills and it carries Ritam---the Absolute Truth with it"
      Thus you can see that if someone is residing at the bank of an ocean, for him the sun is born from waters.  For people like me who remain in the planes, the sun is born out of the earth.  For people residing in hilly areas, the sun is born out of a hill!
      It does not mean that our Vedic seers were ignorant, but that they gave beautiful metaphors.
      It could be a similar case with the Greeks.  Even if for the sake of argument we agree that they were ignorant people who did not know about the sunrise and sunset, what has that to do with me, much less the Vedic lore?
      Perhaps you are also forgetting that Aryabhata was abused left and right by Brahmagupta for claiming that the earth rotated on its axis.  And that happened in sixth century AD!
      Similarly, as late as the early twentieth century, Samanta Chandra-Shekhar   in his Siddhanta Darpan.  also did not agree with Aryabhata and claimed that the universe was geocentric and not heliocentric!
      Why are you trying to pry open all such deadwood by making unnecessary comparisons of different cultures?
      <Compare this to Rg Ved  which does not mention Sun plunging into the sea as Greeks rather naively do. Instead RV Mantra 1.164.11 talks about twelve spoked wheel (This is in some sense a motif of the zodiac) of Sun revolving around the firmament.>
      You have become possessed by "zodiac" and may even be reciting that "mantra" in your sleep as well!
      Why are you making a fool of yourself by presuming a zodiac whenever there is a word "twelve" in any of the scriptures?
      <2) There is absolutely nothing on the phases of the moon or the eclipses in these works.>
      My dear Shjivrajji, for god's sake do not go on exposing your ignorance to the whole world!
      Do you have any idea as to what Varahamihira has said about the views of some of his predecessors regarding eclipses as late as sixth century AD in his Brihat Samhita, Rahu-chara-adyaya?  Just go through that chapter first and then enter into further discussions!
      <Question is not about the mere observation of phases of the moon (as some cave dwellers did) rather did the Greeks know what caused the phases of the moon? Answer is no. Greeks thought of the earth as a flat disc (see for instance map of Hecateus of Melitus 5th century BCE) and they did not know that moon shone by reflecting the light of the Sun.>
      Shivrajji, What is all this crap?
      Do you have any idea as to how the tithis have been calculated in the Vedanga Jyotisha?
      No!  You do not have, as otherwise you would not be making a fool of yourself in such a manner!
      However, pl. note it once again that I am not an agent of any Greek embassy to defend their ignorance or state of knowledge in the past, but all that I am saying is that the Vedic seers did not worship in-animate ojects like  mangal and shani etc. nor did they believe in any kalasapra dosha etc.  But you are out to convince me that the Vedic seers believed in all that non-sense and are making comparisons of their knowledge with that of the Greeks for that purpose!  
      What type of a logic are you using?
      It appears you have a real tamoguni buddhih, like all the "Vedic astrologers" including the imported Vamadeva!
      <3) Homer knew less then half a dozen constellations and a few stars.
      Ursa minor was added to Greek constellation list only in
      6th century BC. Only constellations Homer mentions are: Ursa Major, Pleiades, Hyades, Bootes, and Orion. Homer did not know the name of any star or constellation, that never set, except the Great Bear, and consequently was ignorant of all the other constellations that lay within his circle of perpetual observability. Now as he lived in Chios, or nearly in the same latitude, his circle of perpetual apparition would include the Dragon, Ursa Minor, Cassiopeia, Cepheus, and other less considerable constellations, beside parts of Bootes, and some others; the names of all which must of course have been unknown to Homer.>
      What I have to do with the number of constellations that Homer talked about?
      But, BTW, do you know that as late as eleventh century AD, Alberuni was sad to see that none of the astrologers that he met during his sojourn could recognize even a single group of stars i.e. nakshatras?
      Why are you trying to unearth such a poor state of astronomical knowledge in India by such unnecessary comparisons?
      Let me make it clear once again that the Vedic seers did not believe in predictive hocus-pocus and as such, they did not need any planetary knowledge for the same.  Thus they did not try for it deliberately and that certainly is a blessing in disguise as otherwise we would by now have become another Greece or even Babylonia!
      <Thus we can conclude Greek astronomy knowledge was rather poor and
      data does not support that they passed on this knowledge to
      Indians regardless of what Saha says or Kaul says or any comittee says.>
      Surya Siddhanta is the "most ancient" astronomical work that talks of planets vis-a-vis Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis.  So the billion dollar question is: "Who has created the Surya Siddhanta and when"?
      Once you tell me that, giving "textual evidence" (as per your own criteria!) only then can it be decided as to whether the statements of  M N Saha or N C Lahiri etc.  that Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis are not of Indian origin but have come from Greece/Babylonia is correct or not!
      Jai Shri Ram!
      A K Kaul

      On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 10:12 PM, shivraj singh <shivkhokra@...> wrote:
       


      Dear Kaulji,
           It is important in a debate to have evidence. It does not matter what Saha says or Kaul says or Shivraj says. What I need to see is a clear textual evidence of zodiac mentioned in the greek texts and its widespread use which predates its first use in India. Can you please supply such data?

            For your perusal:

      1) The Greeks had Sun plunge in the western ocean and did not
      really bother for how the Sun returned in the east during the night
      and the next morning.

      Compare this to Rg Ved  which does not mention Sun plunging into the sea as Greeks rather naively do. Instead RV Mantra 1.164.11 talks about twelve spoked wheel (This is in some sense a motif of the zodiac) of Sun revolving around the firmament.

      2) There is absolutely nothing on the phases of the moon or the
       eclipses in these works.

      Question is not about the mere observation of phases of the moon (as some cave dwellers did) rather did the Greeks know what caused the phases of the moon? Answer is no. Greeks thought of the earth as a flat disc (see for instance map of Hecateus of Melitus 5th century BCE) and they did not know that moon shone by reflecting the light of the Sun.

      3) Homer knew less then half a dozen constellations and a few stars.
      Ursa minor was added to Greek constellation list only in
      6th century BC. Only constellations Homer mentions are: Ursa Major, Pleiades, Hyades, Bootes, and Orion. Homer did not know the name of any star or constellation, that never set, except the Great Bear, and consequently was ignorant of all the other constellations that lay within his circle of perpetual observability. Now as he lived in Chios, or nearly in the same latitude, his circle of perpetual apparition would include the Dragon, Ursa Minor, Cassiopeia, Cepheus, and other less considerable constellations, beside parts of Bootes, and some others; the names of all which must of course have been unknown to Homer.

      It is also observable, that though the Hyades and Pleiades are so
      often mentioned in Hesiod, Homer, Job, and Amos, there is no notice
      taken of Taurus, of which they make a part.


      Thus we can conclude Greek astronomy knowledge was rather poor and
      data does not support that they passed on this knowledge to
      Indians regardless of what Saha says or Kaul says or any comittee says.

      Regards,
      Shivraj



      From: A K Kaul <jyotirved@...>
      To: hinducalendar <HinduCalendar@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>; akandabaratam <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; Mukti Marg <Mukti_Marg@...>; "Srinandan@..." <Srinandan@...>; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>; Bal Ram Singh <bsingh@...>; World Brahman Federation Canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; Dr Bhudia Kutch Science Foundation <kutchsciencefoundation@...>; Bharath Gyan <bharathgyan@...>; Bibhu Dev Misra <bibhumisra@...>; "ancientarchaeologist@..." <ancientarchaeologist@...>; GANTA DIWAKAR <hariom4959@...>; Gayatri Devi Vasudev <gayatridevivasudev@...>; Dr Ayenger <aareni@...>; "mail@..." <mail@...>; N.R.Joshi <giravani@...>; "indianarchaeology@..." <indianarchaeology@...>; Srinivasan Kalyanaraman <kalyan97@...>; "vedakavi@..." <vedakavi@...>; Padmakar Vartak <padmakarvartak@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>
      Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [HinduCalendar] Re: [AIA] Re: The Ayanamsha Controversy! [2 Attachments]

       

      Shri Shivraj Singhji,
      Jai Shri Ram!
      <The word contained in the shloka is má¹›gacakrÄ and not Mahachakra. Furthermore this shloka was not offered as a "proof" rather as a marker for discussion to find Greek references prior to it.  >
      As per the attached page, "mrigachakra-in-mbh", the word "mrigachakra" has been translated by Gita Press editors as sarvatobhadra-chakra and not rashichakra.
      <Can you please point to a work of proven provenance by Euktemon which we can read in which he used signs of Zodiac which were borrowed in India?>
      Regarding the signs of zodiac  being of Greek/Chaldean origin,  the attachment "rashis-are-of-Greek-origin" is a scanned page from the Report of the Calendar Reform Committee.  Dr. Meghnad Saha was its chairman.
      It was signed by as many as seven scientists/astronomers/scholars of India.  BTW, late N. C. Lahiri was one of the signatories of this declaration in the RCRC that Rashis are of Greek origin!  He was in fact the Secretary of the CRC.
      I think it should be a more than sufficient proof to settle this issue once for all.
      Jai Shri Ram!
      A K Kaul



      On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 1:07 AM, shivraj singh <shivkhokra@...> wrote:
       


      Dear Dr Elst,

             The word contained in the shloka is má¹›gacakrÄ and not Mahachakra. Furthermore this shloka was not offered as a "proof" rather as a marker for discussion to find Greek references prior to it. 

            Can you please point to a work of proven provenance by Euktemon which we can read in which he used signs of Zodiac which were borrowed in India?

           Also perhaps you missed reading it: do you know of any Yavan in Mahabharata who has a Greek name since Yavan Bhagdatta is certainly not Greek?



      Regards,
      Shivraj


           

      From: "koenraad.elst@..." <koenraad.elst@...>
      To: shivraj singh <shivkhokra@...>
      Cc: akandabaratam <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>; Mukti Marg <Mukti_Marg@...>; Srinandan@...; ancient indian astrology <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>; Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@...>; Narahari B Achar (nachar) <nachar@...>; Bal Ram Singh <bsingh@...>; World Brahman Federation Canada <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>; Dr Bhudia Kutch Science Foundation <kutchsciencefoundation@...>; Bharath Gyan <bharathgyan@...>; Bibhu Dev Misra <bibhumisra@...>; ancientarchaeologist@...; GANTA DIWAKAR <hariom4959@...>; Gayatri Devi Vasudev <gayatridevivasudev@...>; Dr Ayenger <aareni@...>; mail@...; N.R.Joshi <giravani@...>; indianarchaeology@...; Srinivasan Kalyanaraman <kalyan97@...>; vedakavi@...; Padmakar Vartak <padmakarvartak@...>; Krishna Joshi <snjoshy@...>; shobhan ganji <shobhan_ganji@...>; lits@...
      Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 12:33 AM
      Subject: Re: [HinduCalendar] Re: [AIA] Re: The Ayanamsha Controversy!

      Shivraj,
       
      The Zodiac is of Babylonian origin, and firmly attested there from ca. 700 BC, though probably older. Like the Indian usage of Yavana, its employment by the Greeks predated Alexander by more than a century. Euktemon introduced it in Athens ca. 450 BC, as a calendar. Ca. 435, Alexander conquered Babylon, where the horoscopic use of the heavens had started but was still in its infancy. The combination of Babylonian and Greek science produced modern astrology, as partly preserved in Europe and very largely in India, within thirty years. After that, the Zodiac and this new system of astrology conquered India.  
      The verse you quote from the MBh (which was edited late enough to still contain post-Alexandrine imports) contains the word Mahacakra, which might mean Rashicakra, but might just as well mean Nakshatracakra. The fact that you can cite it as "proof" of anything tells us enough about your standards of proof.
       
      Regards,
       
      KE

      Van: "shivraj singh" <shivkhokra@...>
      Aan: "koenraad elst" <koenraad.elst@...>
      Cc: "akandabaratam" <akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com>, "Mukti Marg" <Mukti_Marg@...>, Srinandan@..., "ancient indian astrology" <ancient_indian_astrology@yahoogroups.com>, "Sudhir-Architect" <ar_sudhirkumar@...>, "Narahari B Achar (nachar)" <nachar@...>, "Bal Ram Singh" <bsingh@...>, "World Brahman Federation Canada" <worldbrahmanfederation.canada@...>, "Dr Bhudia Kutch Science Foundation" <kutchsciencefoundation@...>, "Bharath Gyan" <bharathgyan@...>, "Bibhu Dev Misra" <bibhumisra@...>, ancientarchaeologist@..., "GANTA DIWAKAR" <hariom4959@...>, "Gayatri Devi Vasudev" <gayatridevivasudev@...>, "Dr Ayenger" <aareni@...>, mail@..., "N.R.Joshi" <giravani@...>,
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