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re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

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  • jaduvall2005
    I ve been looking through the various charts that Ford has placed in the Files and I m curious about this particular individual, Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei.
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 26 9:56 PM
      I've been looking through the various charts that Ford has placed in
      the Files and I'm curious about this particular individual, Princess
      Chang-lo of Xi Wei. Is she a member of the Northern Wei dynasty or
      does she belong to the Western Wei/Northern Chou dynasty. In either
      case, is much of anything known about her ancestry? Is David Hughes
      correct in identifying her mother as a daughter of the ruler of the
      Juan-Juan/Ruruan?

      Thanks.

      Jeff Duvall
      jduvall@...
      and/or
      jeffery@...
    • T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
      ... From: jaduvall2005 To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: [ancient_genealogy]
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 27 9:47 PM
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "jaduvall2005" <jaduvall2005@...>
        To: <ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:56 PM
        Subject: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei


        >
        >
        > I've been looking through the various charts that Ford has placed in
        > the Files and I'm curious about this particular individual, Princess
        > Chang-lo of Xi Wei. Is she a member of the Northern Wei dynasty or
        > does she belong to the Western Wei/Northern Chou dynasty.

        The latter.

        > In either
        > case, is much of anything known about her ancestry? Is David Hughes
        > correct in identifying her mother as a daughter of the ruler of the
        > Juan-Juan/Ruruan?


        Yes. That's about it, except for the Western (Xi) Wei/Northern (Pei)
        Emperors, themselves. They were descended from the Toba. Emp. Pei-Wei Tao
        Wu-ti, (386-408), married a daughter of Kun Kusu, K. of Paekche, in Korea.


        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Jeff Duvall
        > jduvall@...
        > and/or
        > jeffery@...
      • norenxaq
        ... How were they descended from Pei-Wei-Tao? What is the name of this daughter, if known?
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 28 8:50 AM
           

          > In either
          > case, is much of anything known about her ancestry?  Is David Hughes
          > correct in identifying her mother as a daughter of the ruler of the
          > Juan-Juan/Ruruan?
           

          Yes.  That's about it, except for the Western (Xi) Wei/Northern (Pei)
          Emperors, themselves.  They were descended from the Toba.  Emp. Pei-Wei Tao
          Wu-ti, (386-408), married a daughter of Kun Kusu, K. of Paekche, in Korea.
           

          How were they descended from Pei-Wei-Tao? What is the name of this daughter, if known?
        • norenxaq
          Hello: between Xiao Wendi and Yuan Baoju is a broken picture icon. who were the intervening genetations? thank-you
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 28 10:31 PM
            Hello:

            between Xiao Wendi and Yuan Baoju is a broken picture icon.

            who were the intervening genetations?

            thank-you
          • T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
            I don t know whether it is known. What I have, (as uncertain as it nay be), on the descent is: T o-pa Shih-I-Chien, Emp. Kao Tsu of Tai, in Shansi 338-377
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 28 10:34 PM
              I don't know whether it is known.
              What I have, (as uncertain as it nay be), on the descent is:

              T’o-pa Shih-I-Chien, Emp. Kao Tsu of Tai, in Shansi 338-377

              T’o-pa Kui, Emp. Daowudi of Northern (Pei-) Wei 386-408, m. dt. Kun Kusu, K. Paekche

              T’o-pa Si, Mingyuandi, Emp. Pei-Wei 409-423

              T’o-pa T‘ao, Taiwudi, Emp. Pei-Wei 424-451

              T’o-pa Yuan

              T’o-pa Jun, Wenchengdi, Emp. Pei-Wei 452-465

              Xianwendi, Emp. Pei-Wei 466-470

              Xiao Wendi, Emp. Pei-Wei 471-499

              Yuan Baoju, Wendi, Emp. Xi-Wei 535-552,

              Ch’ang-lo, m. 1) Tumen, (Bumyn), Kh. Turks; 2) Ishtëmi Dizabul Mokan Djigin, 3rd Yab. Turks

              Further comment would be very welcome.
              Sincerely,
              Ford
               

              In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
                 A stately pleasure-dome decree:
                    Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
                       Through caverns measureless to man
                          Down to a sunless sea.
              So twice five miles of fertile ground
              With walls and towers were girdled round:
              And here were gardens bright with sinuous rills
              Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
              And here were forests ancient as the hills,
              Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.
                  'Kubla Khan'
                  Samuel Taylor Coleridge

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: norenxaq
              Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

               

              > In either
              > case, is much of anything known about her ancestry?  Is David Hughes
              > correct in identifying her mother as a daughter of the ruler of the
              > Juan-Juan/Ruruan?
               

              Yes.  That's about it, except for the Western (Xi) Wei/Northern (Pei)
              Emperors, themselves.  They were descended from the Toba.  Emp. Pei-Wei Tao
              Wu-ti, (386-408), married a daughter of Kun Kusu, K. of Paekche, in Korea.
               

              How were they descended from Pei-Wei-Tao? What is the name of this daughter, if known?
            • norenxaq
              ... understood. there are chinese transliteration sites on-line
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 28 11:37 PM
                 

                "T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

                 Only one generation.  A male.  Name found only in Chinese characters, which
                I don't read, and, apparently, can't transmit.
                'Obviously you can not transmit something you don't have.'
                Sorry.
                Ford
                understood. there are chinese transliteration sites on-line

              • T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
                Only one generation. A male. Name found only in Chinese characters, which I don t read, and, apparently, can t transmit. Obviously you can not transmit
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 28 11:59 PM
                  Only one generation. A male. Name found only in Chinese characters, which
                  I don't read, and, apparently, can't transmit.
                  'Obviously you can not transmit something you don't have.'
                  Sorry.
                  Ford
                  'The shadow of the dome of pleasure
                  Floated midway on the waves:
                  Where was heard the mingled measure
                  From the fountain and the caves.
                  It was a miracle of rare device,
                  A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!'
                  'Kubla Khan'
                  -Samuel Taylor Cloridge
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@...>
                  To: <ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:31 AM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei


                  > Hello:
                  >
                  > between Xiao Wendi and Yuan Baoju is a broken picture icon.
                  >
                  > who were the intervening genetations?
                  >
                  > thank-you
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
                  I don t know them, nor how to use them. Can you read it? ... From: norenxaq To: ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:37 AM Subject:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 29 12:14 AM
                    I don't know them, nor how to use them.
                    Can you read it?
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: norenxaq
                    Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:37 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                     

                    "T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

                     Only one generation.  A male.  Name found only in Chinese characters, which
                    I don't read, and, apparently, can't transmit.
                    'Obviously you can not transmit something you don't have.'
                    Sorry.
                    Ford
                    understood. there are chinese transliteration sites on-line

                  • Kåre Hasselberg
                    Hello ! I would like to suggest that you try http://www.chinahistoryforum.com where you will find a lot of useful info on chinese genealogy from these times.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 29 3:08 AM
                      Hello !
                       
                      I would like to suggest that you try http://www.chinahistoryforum.com where you will find a lot of useful info on chinese genealogy from these times. They use, however, the modern chinese way of rendering chinese names into our characters, so T'ang Kao-tsu is rendered as Tang Gaozu, his father Li Ping as Li Bing and maternal grandfather Tu-ku Hsin as Dugu Xin.
                       
                      On the section on the Tang dynasty you will also find a genealogy on the first Tang emperor going 36 generations further back in time, first with chinese characters in a message from Yiman Rongdi 10 Jul 2004, then translated by Yun into English on 13 Jul 2004. In another message of 26 Nov 2004 Yun mentions, however, that this genealogy may perhaps be not completely reliable, as it is possible that the family of Tang Gaozu (T'ang Kao-tsu), originally of the Xianbei, may have grafted their origins on a chinese family Li.
                       
                      At least this is what was done by the Yang clan of the Sui dynasty, also of Xianbei descent, but claiming descent from the Han chinese clan Yang  of Hongnong, that descended from Yang Zhen, a great minister of the Western Han dynasty. Yun shows in a message of 10 Jan 2005, that the Sui dynasty descended from a prefect in Beibing ca.337 A.D., Yang Xuan, who was the founder of his clan. He was two generations before your great chart on the Yang clan. Yun refers to the biography of Yang Zhong (Yang Chung, duke of Sui, and father of emperor Sui Wendi) in a work known as "Zhou Shu". The Sui emperors may have grafted their lineage onto the ancient Yang clan to cover up their Xianbei origins.
                       
                      I must finally add that I have no knowledge of the chinese language, so I can only refer to the messages on Chinahistoryforum, that is well worth a visit.
                       
                      Best wishes to everybody,
                       
                      K Hasselberg
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 9:14 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                      I don't know them, nor how to use them.
                      Can you read it?
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: norenxaq
                      Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:37 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                       

                      "T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

                       Only one generation.  A male.  Name found only in Chinese characters, which
                      I don't read, and, apparently, can't transmit.
                      'Obviously you can not transmit something you don't have.'
                      Sorry.
                      Ford
                      understood. there are chinese transliteration sites on-line

                    • Jeff Duvall
                      Let me preface this by noting that early Medieval Chinese history is pretty far out of my field of expertise (my few chinese history courses were on 19th and
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 29 6:43 AM
                        Let me preface this by noting that early Medieval Chinese history is pretty far out of my field of expertise (my few chinese history courses were on 19th and 20th century China), but as I find this all rather intriguing, I have been doing some research on the subject and find that most of the scholarship that I've been able to track down, so far, indicate that the mother of the second T'o-pa/Tuoba/Toba emperor, T'o-pa Si (r. 409-423), was actually a Lady Liu, from the Clan Kuren.  For instance, see "Matricide among the Touba-Xianbei and its Transformation During the Northern Wei," by Valentin C. Golovachev in *Early Medieval China* vol. 8 (2002), pp. 1-39, which is available online at this url:  http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cchenna/journal/volume%202/ from the Early Medival China webpage.   I should also point out that Golovachev's article indentifies the mother of almost every emperor in the dynasty.  I can post those either later today or over the weekend if anyone's interested.  Finally I should also note that the historian Jennifer Holmgren seems to have built her career on the study of the Imperial women of the Northern Wei and their successor dynasties, and has a number of publications that might be useful in this discussion.  I've requested several through inter-library loan, but it will probably be the end of next week, or the following week, before any of them arrive.
                         
                        Jeff Duvall
                         

                        "T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@...> wrote:
                        I don't know whether it is known.
                        What I have, (as uncertain as it nay be), on the descent is:

                        T�o-pa Shih-I-Chien, Emp. Kao Tsu of Tai, in Shansi 338-377

                        T�o-pa Kui, Emp. Daowudi of Northern (Pei-) Wei 386-408, m. dt. Kun Kusu, K. Paekche

                        T�o-pa Si, Mingyuandi, Emp. Pei-Wei 409-423

                        T�o-pa T�ao, Taiwudi, Emp. Pei-Wei 424-451

                        T�o-pa Yuan

                        T�o-pa Jun, Wenchengdi, Emp. Pei-Wei 452-465

                        Xianwendi, Emp. Pei-Wei 466-470

                        Xiao Wendi, Emp. Pei-Wei 471-499

                        Yuan Baoju, Wendi, Emp. Xi-Wei 535-552,

                        Ch�ang-lo, m. 1) Tumen, (Bumyn), Kh. Turks; 2) Isht�mi Dizabul Mokan Djigin, 3rd Yab. Turks

                        Further comment would be very welcome.
                        Sincerely,
                        Ford
                         

                        In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
                           A stately pleasure-dome decree:
                              Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
                                 Through caverns measureless to man
                                    Down to a sunless sea.
                        So twice five miles of fertile ground
                        With walls and towers were girdled round:
                        And here were gardens bright with sinuous rills
                        Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
                        And here were forests ancient as the hills,
                        Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.
                            'Kubla Khan'
                            Samuel Taylor Coleridge

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: norenxaq
                        Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:50 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                         

                        > In either
                        > case, is much of anything known about her ancestry?  Is David Hughes
                        > correct in identifying her mother as a daughter of the ruler of the
                        > Juan-Juan/Ruruan?
                         

                        Yes.  That's about it, except for the Western (Xi) Wei/Northern (Pei)
                        Emperors, themselves.  They were descended from the Toba.  Emp. Pei-Wei Tao
                        Wu-ti, (386-408), married a daughter of Kun Kusu, K. of Paekche, in Korea.
                         

                        How were they descended from Pei-Wei-Tao? What is the name of this daughter, if known?

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                      • j-luc
                        ... Jeff i am very interested in jl
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 29 10:08 AM
                          --- In ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Duvall


                          Jeff i am very interested in

                          jl
                        • Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
                          ... From: Kåre Hasselberg To: ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com ; norenxaq Cc: ancient_genealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:08 AM Subject:
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 1, 2005
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:08 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                            Hello !
                             
                            I would like to suggest that you try http://www.chinahistoryforum.com where you will find a lot of useful info on chinese genealogy from these times. They use, however, the modern chinese way of rendering chinese names into our characters, so T'ang Kao-tsu is rendered as Tang Gaozu, his father Li Ping as Li Bing and maternal grandfather Tu-ku Hsin as Dugu Xin.
                             
                            On the section on the Tang dynasty you will also find a genealogy on the first Tang emperor going 36 generations further back in time, first with chinese characters in a message from Yiman Rongdi 10 Jul 2004, then translated by Yun into English on 13 Jul 2004. In another message of 26 Nov 2004 Yun mentions, however, that this genealogy may perhaps be not completely reliable, as it is possible that the family of Tang Gaozu (T'ang Kao-tsu), originally of the Xianbei, may have grafted their origins on a chinese family Li.
                             
                            At least this is what was done by the Yang clan of the Sui dynasty, also of Xianbei descent, but claiming descent from the Han chinese clan Yang  of Hongnong, that descended from Yang Zhen, a great minister of the Western Han dynasty. Yun shows in a message of 10 Jan 2005, that the Sui dynasty descended from a prefect in Beibing ca.337 A.D., Yang Xuan, who was the founder of his clan. He was two generations before your great chart on the Yang clan. Yun refers to the biography of Yang Zhong (Yang Chung, duke of Sui, and father of emperor Sui Wendi) in a work known as "Zhou Shu". The Sui emperors may have grafted their lineage onto the ancient Yang clan to cover up their Xianbei origins.
                             
                            I must finally add that I have no knowledge of the chinese language, so I can only refer to the messages on Chinahistoryforum, that is well worth a visit.
                             
                            Best wishes to everybody,
                             
                            K Hasselberg
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 9:14 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                            I don't know them, nor how to use them.
                            Can you read it?
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: norenxaq
                            Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:37 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_genealogy] re. Princess Chang-lo of Xi Wei

                             

                            "T. Stanford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

                             Only one generation.  A male.  Name found only in Chinese characters, which
                            I don't read, and, apparently, can't transmit.
                            'Obviously you can not transmit something you don't have.'
                            Sorry.
                            Ford
                            understood. there are chinese transliteration sites on-line

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