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Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

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  • Toby
    HTML clipboard Assyrian Planisphere July 4, 2361bc, 24 minutes before Sunrise Introduction to the Planisphere Gen 1:14
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 2 3:22 PM
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      Assyrian Planisphere
      July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
       

      Introduction to the Planisphere

      Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
          (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
          (2). for signs, and
          (3). for seasons, and
          (4). for days, and
          (5). years:

       

      The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   

      1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.

      2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.

      What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   

      The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.

      It's Purpose   

      "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'

      These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words

      "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"

      And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.

      I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.

      I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 

      The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.

    • Opuslola@aol.com
      Wow,and I thought it actually said; stop at the second red light,and turn left, then proceed to the four season s restrauant,where you will receive a good
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 2 4:25 PM
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        Wow,and I thought it actually said; "stop at the second red light,and turn left, then proceed to the "four season's" restrauant,where you will receive a good meal!"
         
        But, of course, I could be wrong?  As could your translation?  Or should I call it like it is, all of these translations are mostly "speculations!", get it?  They are speculative translations or transliterations of items/ forms we really do not understand!
         
        Regards,
         
        Ron



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
        To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, Apr 2, 2010 5:22 pm
        Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

         
        Assyrian Planisphere
        July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
         
        Introduction to the Planisphere
        Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
            (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
            (2). for signs, and
            (3). for seasons, and
            (4). for days, and
            (5). years:
         
        The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   
        1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.
        2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.
        What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   
        The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
        It's Purpose   
        "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
        These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
        "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
        And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.
        I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.
        I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 
        The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.
      • Ian Onvlee
        OK Toby, I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 2 11:48 PM
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          OK Toby,
           
          I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
           
          I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Assyrian_Meteor_Path.html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
           
          Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
           
          Quote
          A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
          The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
          Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".

          The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".

          That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.

          The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.

          "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.

          "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."

          Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.

          “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“

          While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.

          Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told theTimes that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.

          A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.

          Unquote

           
          See also http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-David-Thompson/page11-9.html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
           
          I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
           
          Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the bowman) above Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
           
          So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
           
          Regards,
          Ian Onvlee
           
           
           


          From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
          To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
          Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

           

          Assyrian Planisphere
          July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
           

          Introduction to the Planisphere

          Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
              (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
              (2). for signs, and
              (3). for seasons, and
              (4). for days, and
              (5). years:

           

          The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   

          1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.

          2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.

          What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   

          The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.

          It's Purpose   

          "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'

          These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words

          "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"

          And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.

          I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.

          I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 

          The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.


        • Infowolf1@aol.com
          why does The Flood have to have a natural cause? and why could this event the planisphere appears to describe not have been something much less serious? Like a
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 3 12:58 PM
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            why does The Flood have to have a natural cause? and why could this
            event the planisphere appears to describe not have been something
            much less serious? Like a normal catastrophe not an extinction event
            to beat all extinction events?
             
            Mary Christine
             
            In a message dated 4/3/2010 9:07:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time , sambacats@... writes:
             

            OK Toby,
             
            I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
             
            I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path. html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
             
            Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregis ter.co.uk/ 2008/03/31/ kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
             
            Quote
            A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
            The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
            Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".

            The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".

            That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.

            The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.

            "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.

            "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."

            Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.

            “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“

            While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.

            Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told theTimes that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.

            A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.

            Unquote

             
            See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9. html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
             
            I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
             
            Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the bowman) above Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
             
            So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
             
            Regards,
            Ian Onvlee
             
             
             


            From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@yahoo. com>
            To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
            Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

             

            Assyrian Planisphere
            July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
             

            Introduction to the Planisphere

            Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
                (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
                (2). for signs, and
                (3). for seasons, and
                (4). for days, and
                (5). years:

             

            The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   

            1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.

            2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.

            What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   

            The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.

            It's Purpose   

            "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'

            These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words

            "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"

            And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.

            I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.

            I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 

            The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.


          • Toby
            Greetings Ian, Thanks for your interest. ... But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots, however, much of your posting sounds
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 3 7:13 PM
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              Greetings Ian,

              Thanks for your interest.

              You wrote:
              > I know this planisphere.

              But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots, however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple phrases which he's been taught.

              Answer me this:

              Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on what planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?

              Toby

              --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
              >
              > OK Toby,
              >
              > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
              >
              > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Assyrian_Meteor_Path.html%c3%82%c2%a0Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
              >
              > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
              >
              > Quote
              > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
              > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
              > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
              > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".
              > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
              > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.
              > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.
              > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."
              > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
              > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
              > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.
              > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
              > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
              > Unquote
              >
              > See also http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-David-Thompson/page11-9.html%c3%82%c2%a0for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
              >
              > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct
              > Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later
              > such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
              >
              > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
              > bowman) above Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
              >
              > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Ian Onvlee
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
              > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
              > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
              >
              >  
              > Assyrian Planisphere
              > July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
              >  
              > Introduction to the Planisphere
              > Gen 1:14¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
              > >>>>    (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
              > >>>>    (2). for signs, and
              > >>>>    (3). for seasons, and
              > >>>>    (4). for days, and
              > >>>>    (5). years:
              >  
              > The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   
              > 1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.
              > >2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.
              > What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   
              > The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve
              > other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
              > It's Purpose  
              > "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
              > These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
              > "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
              > And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.
              > I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.
              > I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 
              > The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.
              >
            • Ian Onvlee
              Beats me Christine, For me the planisphere recalls nothing more than an astronomical scene, which apparently had been given some magical meaning, as
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 3 9:39 PM
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                Beats me Christine,
                 
                For me the planisphere recalls nothing more than an astronomical scene, which apparently had been given some magical meaning, as evidenced by the textual additions. It may have been some celebrated epoch, perhaps a foundation date or a creation date. I don't see necessarily any direct relation to a catastrofe on Earth. However, all those arrows do seem to emphasize the importance of the center of the planisphere. The question is what epoch could fit the pattern best, and we need to be unbiased in order to be objective about it. There may be not just a few alternatives, although I haven't yet been able to find any good fit as meaningful as, or better than the evening of 14 August 8847 BC.
                 
                Regards,
                Ian Onvlee


                From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
                To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 9:58:10 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_chronology] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                 

                why does The Flood have to have a natural cause? and why could this
                event the planisphere appears to describe not have been something
                much less serious? Like a normal catastrophe not an extinction event
                to beat all extinction events?
                 
                Mary Christine
                 
                In a message dated 4/3/2010 9:07:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time , sambacats@yahoo. com writes:
                 

                OK Toby,
                 
                I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
                 
                I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path. html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
                 
                Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregis ter.co.uk/ 2008/03/31/ kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
                 
                Quote
                A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
                The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
                Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".

                The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".

                That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.

                The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.

                "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.

                "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."

                Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.

                “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“

                While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.

                Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told theTimes that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.

                A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.

                Unquote

                 
                See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9. html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
                 
                I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
                 
                Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the bowman) above Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
                 
                So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
                 
                Regards,
                Ian Onvlee
                 
                 
                 


                From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@yahoo. com>
                To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
                Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                 

                Assyrian Planisphere
                July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
                 

                Introduction to the Planisphere

                Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
                    (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
                    (2). for signs, and
                    (3). for seasons, and
                    (4). for days, and
                    (5). years:

                 

                The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   

                1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.

                2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.

                What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   

                The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.

                It's Purpose   

                "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'

                These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words

                "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"

                And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.

                I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.

                I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 

                The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.



              • Ian Onvlee
                Hi Toby, The parrot part is what I quoted, the rest is selfstudy. No, I haven t studied Bond and Hempsell s book (yet), if that s what you mean, but I do not
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 4 4:59 AM
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                  Hi Toby,
                   
                  The parrot part is what I quoted, the rest is selfstudy. No, I haven't studied Bond and Hempsell's book (yet), if that's what you mean, but I do not recall anyone having identified any planets in any section either. So I have no agreement or disagreement with either their or your view regarding planetary positions. If it's just a dot being there, it could be anything, but please fill me in what arguments there are for planetary positions.
                   
                  Regards,
                  Ian Onvlee
                   


                  From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                  To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 4:13:07 AM
                  Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                   

                  Greetings Ian,

                  Thanks for your interest.

                  You wrote:

                  > I know this planisphere.

                  But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots, however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple phrases which he's been taught.

                  Answer me this:

                  Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on what planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?

                  Toby

                  --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > OK Toby,
                  >
                  > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
                  >
                  > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path. html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
                  >
                  > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
                  >
                  > Quote
                  > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
                  > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
                  > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
                  > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".
                  > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
                  > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.
                  > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.
                  > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."
                  > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
                  > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
                  > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.
                  > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
                  > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
                  > Unquote
                  >
                  > See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9. html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
                  >
                  > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct
                  > Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later
                  > such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
                  >
                  > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere.  The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
                  > bowman) above  Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
                  >
                  > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically  and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Ian Onvlee
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                  > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
                  > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                  >
                  >  
                  > Assyrian Planisphere
                  > July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
                  >  
                  > Introduction to the Planisphere
                  > Gen 1:14¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
                  > >>>>    (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
                  > >>>>    (2). for signs, and
                  > >>>>    (3). for seasons, and
                  > >>>>    (4). for days, and
                  > >>>>    (5). years:
                  >  
                  > The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   
                  > 1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.
                  > >2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.
                  > What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   
                  > The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve
                  > other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
                  > It's Purpose  
                  > "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
                  > These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
                  > "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
                  > And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.
                  > I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.
                  > I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 
                  > The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.
                  >


                • Toby
                  Greetings Mary, God can use natural or supernatural things. Examples of supernatural things: - God used angels throughout the BIble. - God brought back dead
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 4 8:40 AM
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                    Greetings Mary,

                    God can use natural or supernatural things.

                    Examples of supernatural things:
                    - God used angels throughout the BIble.
                    - God brought back dead people to life.

                    Examples of natural things that God used:
                    - Water is natural, and God used it to drown the evil preflood people
                    - Stars are natural, Gen 1:11-14 says God made the stars for 5 purposes mostly involving keeping track of time.

                    There are several reasons why I think this planisphere has to do with the flood:
                    1. It was found in the Royal Library of Nineveh along with other such flood inscriptions such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.
                    2. The name 'Asshur' was on it - Asshur was Noah's grandson and may have been on the ark.
                    3. There are some descriptions on the planisphere which seem to indicate that the meteors crashed through a water canopy on their way to the earth
                    4. The celestial information on the planisphere indicates, to me, that this event on the planisphere happened in 2361bc --- which is really close to the date of the flood using conventional Bible Chronology such as Ussher, Mauro, Angstey, and myself.
                    5. The planisphere describes the path of the meteors/asteroids through the constellations, then it describes a big smoke plume. This is a really really really unique observation. I know of no other such observation on "earth" ever recorded in the history of mankind. The only other similar observation I know of was the shoemaker-levy comet colision on Jupiter a few years ago.

                    Toby

                    --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                    >
                    > why does The Flood have to have a natural cause? and why could this
                    > event the planisphere appears to describe not have been something
                    > much less serious? Like a normal catastrophe not an extinction event
                    > to beat all extinction events?
                    >
                    > Mary Christine
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 4/3/2010 9:07:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time ,
                    > sambacats@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > OK Toby,
                    >
                    > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King
                    > Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes
                    > Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not
                    > dated of course.
                    >
                    > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby:
                    > _http://infinitybiblhttp://infinitybhttp://infhttp://inhttp://infinhttp_
                    > (http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Assyrian_Meteor_Path.html) Well done. I can see
                    > that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are
                    > still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the
                    > same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical
                    > (Massoretic) Flooddate.
                    >
                    >
                    > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell
                    > (_http://www.theregishttp://wwwhttp://www.http://www.there_ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) )
                    > dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically
                    > identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
                    >
                    > Quote
                    > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at
                    > interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in
                    > 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which
                    > may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
                    > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was
                    > unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal
                    > palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night
                    > diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and
                    > "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally
                    > unravel its exact meaning.
                    > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell,
                    > Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the
                    > Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the
                    > night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events
                    > in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting
                    > "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
                    >
                    > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to
                    > be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory
                    > relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent
                    > with an impact at Köfels".
                    > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the
                    > evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter.
                    > The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now
                    > believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
                    > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the
                    > asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun
                    > was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is
                    > resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no
                    > crater at Köfels.
                    > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid
                    > clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11
                    > kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached it
                    > s final impact point.
                    > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five
                    > kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created
                    > enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but
                    > because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact
                    > crater."
                    > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “
                    > Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the
                    > explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea
                    > re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
                    > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any
                    > flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people
                    > died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
                    > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord
                    > rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the
                    > heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never
                    > been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected
                    > location close to the Dead Sea.
                    > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though,
                    > restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths
                    > record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" -
                    > including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost
                    > control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
                    > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found
                    > in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The
                    > tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
                    > Unquote
                    >
                    > See also _http://members.p://members.p://members.<Wp://membep://membep://_
                    > (http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-David-Thompson/page11-9.html) for
                    > various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the
                    > planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected
                    > by Johannes Koch in 1989.
                    >
                    > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row
                    > if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets
                    > were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven
                    > planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter
                    > and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even
                    > Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC.
                    > There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?),
                    > at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets
                    > up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish
                    > planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th
                    > of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus,
                    > Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus
                    > and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct Sprica.
                    > Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished
                    > heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one
                    > in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when
                    > Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose
                    > heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the
                    > Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of
                    > the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one
                    > by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but
                    > exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood
                    > ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars
                    > and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from
                    > the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in
                    > the west after sunset). I haven't found any later such occurrence yet
                    > fitting the Biblical Flood story.
                    >
                    > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path
                    > and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the
                    > zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point
                    > was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the
                    > ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in
                    > the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the
                    > tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact,
                    > the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form
                    > of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the
                    > East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then
                    > in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the
                    > sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow
                    > then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the bowman) above Scorpio.
                    > Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its
                    > royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator
                    > (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus.
                    > There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either
                    > there or it isn't.
                    >
                    > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC
                    > instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when
                    > the oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's,
                    > necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in
                    > which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern
                    > culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards
                    > again.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Ian Onvlee
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________________________________
                    > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                    > To: ancient_chronology@ ancient
                    > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
                    > Subject: [ancient_chronology [ancient_chronology<WBR>] Part 1: Assyrian
                    > Pla
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Assyrian Planisphere
                    > July 4, 2361bc, 24 minutes before Sunrise
                    >
                    > Introduction to the Planisphere
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _Gen 1:14_
                    > (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#comm/14) ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
                    > (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
                    > (2). for signs, and
                    > (3). for seasons, and
                    > (4). for days, and
                    > (5). years:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:
                    > 1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that
                    > specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing
                    > The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.
                    > 2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings
                    > including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the
                    > mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an
                    > indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was
                    > located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial
                    > navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the
                    > star of Bethlehem.
                    > What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?
                    > The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object
                    > enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of
                    > constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as
                    > K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is
                    > saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears.
                    > Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector
                    > has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are
                    > associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear
                    > in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors
                    > conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the
                    > Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are
                    > constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of
                    > the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other
                    > purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of
                    > the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in
                    > cuneiform are the Assyrian names of 4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and
                    > Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the
                    > 12 constellations. Why? Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked
                    > like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12
                    > constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the
                    > reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
                    > It's Purpose
                    > "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
                    > These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector
                    > of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
                    > "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
                    > And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed
                    > triangle.
                    > I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the
                    > earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere
                    > were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on
                    > earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about
                    > the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's
                    > relation to locations on the earth.
                    > I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be
                    > a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other
                    > tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book
                    > of Enoch, and the book of Genesis.
                    > The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed
                    > through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the
                    > earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to
                    > 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known,
                    > classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the
                    > only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the
                    > flood which occured 4300 years ago.
                    >
                  • Toby
                    Greetings Ian, You wrote: Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 4 9:39 AM
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                      Greetings Ian,

                      You wrote:
                      "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, ...> > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? "

                      The path of the sun and the path of the planets intersect each other in 2 places. IT takes a very long time (hundreds of years) for these paths to change noticeably. If these 2 paths did indeed overlay each other so that the planetary and sun's paths are right on top of each other, then these parallel/overlaying paths would do so for hundreds of years, not one day here and one day 2 years later.

                      There are many short internet articles on Bond and Hempsell's book, but they all basically say the same thing, and only cover a very small tidbit of their book. These online news clipping 'advertisements' don't discuss the existance of the planets in certain constellations on the planisphere.

                      So, since you lack much of this knowledge, I can understand why you might think the 7 dots might refer to the location of the 7 planets in 1 particular constellation or even between a couple constellations. I suspect, however, that the appearance of 7 planets in the nightime sky, from sunset to sunrise; has happened a few times in the last 6000 years, not just in 8000bc as you suggest. I'll try to look up some info I have on that if you'ld like. The book of Enoch speaks of such an alignment at creation.

                      I believe the 7 dots indicate where the path of the planets intersect 2 specific constellations and the angle of intersection. The Mul Apin tablets, which are contemporary with the planisphere, are divided up into 3 series of tablets. Each of the 3 describe a different path, namely the path of the sun, the planets, and the celestial equator. So it is NOT surprizing that the planisphere would show the path of the sun and the path of the planets on it.

                      BTW, since the MUL APIN describes the constellations these 3 paths travel through, one website dates the MUL APIN to 2340bc as follows:

                      http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi42.htm

                      "The MUL.APIN series of astronomical tablets
                      - now found in the British Museum -
                      describe a UNIQUE heaven which occurred
                      at ca. 2340 BC, plus or minus 20 years."

                      You wrote:
                      "I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate."

                      Yes! Absolutely!

                      So now there are 3 archeological witnesses to the date of the flood:

                      1. 2361bc - Assyrian Planisphere
                      2. 2345bc - George Dodwell's graph of the Earth's tilt
                      3. 2340bc +/-20 years - Mul Apin clay tablets.

                      Pretty nice eh?

                      I am familiar with Gary-David- Thompson's website. My opinion of it, is that it is one of those papers which is all critique but doesn't give alternatives. What does he think the Planishere says? I dunno. He doesn't say. He makes a big deal about Bond and Hempsell translating MUL as constellation (he claims it just means 'star'), yet in this same article he does the same thing: "The Pegasus-square (mul Aš-iku)". The fact is, the planisphere uses the MUL word to refer to several constellations. It says 'The constellation (MUL) of the young twins' and 'The constellation (MUL) of the Shepherd of the Milky Way'.

                      I no doubt disagree with some of Bond and Hempsell's conclusions and interpretations and even a couple of their translations (particular ones that I studied); but I don't throw out the baby with the bath water as those Thompson men do.


                      Toby


                      --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Toby,
                      >
                      > The parrot part is what I quoted, the rest is selfstudy. No, I haven't studied Bond and Hempsell's book (yet), if that's what you mean, but I do not recall anyone having identified any planets in any section either. So I have no agreement or disagreement with either their or your view regarding planetary positions. If it's just a dot being there, it could be anything, but please fill me in what arguments there are for planetary positions.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Ian Onvlee
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                      > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 4:13:07 AM
                      > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                      >
                      >  
                      > Greetings Ian,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your interest.
                      >
                      > You wrote:
                      > > I know this planisphere.
                      >
                      > But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots, however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple phrases which he's been taught.
                      >
                      > Answer me this:
                      >
                      > Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on what planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?
                      >
                      > Toby
                      >
                      > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > OK Toby,
                      > >
                      > > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
                      > >
                      > > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path. html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
                      > >
                      > > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
                      > >
                      > > Quote
                      > > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
                      > > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
                      > > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
                      > > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".
                      > > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
                      > > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.
                      > > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.
                      > > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."
                      > > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
                      > > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
                      > > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.
                      > > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
                      > > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
                      > > Unquote
                      > >
                      > > See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9. html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
                      > >
                      > > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct
                      > > Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later
                      > > such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
                      > >
                      > > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere.  The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
                      > > bowman) above  Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
                      > >
                      > > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically  and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > > Ian Onvlee
                      > >
                    • Toby
                      Greetings IAN You wrote: Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 4 1:43 PM
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                        Greetings IAN

                        You wrote:
                        "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC."

                        For what it's worth:

                        . 3956bc Feb 25
                        - The 2nd book of Enoch chapter 30
                        - Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Sun, Jupiter, Mercury all line up (West to east)

                        This might be the creation alignment of 7 planets. If so, and if the flood occured 1656 years after creation as Gen 4 and 5 attest, then the flood would be reckoned to 2300bc (which is within 61 years of the planisphere date.....

                        Toby
                      • Ian Onvlee
                        Hello Toby, I do not automatically agree with critiques either. Regarding your quote from http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/ lexi42.htm, stating The MUL.APIN
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 4 6:40 PM
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                          Hello Toby,
                           
                          I do not automatically agree with critiques either. Regarding your quote from http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/ lexi42.htm, stating "The MUL.APIN series of astronomical tablets - now found in the British Museum - describe a UNIQUE heaven which occurred at ca. 2340 BC, plus or minus 20 years.", it is a bit of an exaggeration and not the complete story. On
                          http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi181.htm it is more objectively stated as follows:
                           

                          Hunger and Pingree themselves note that it was
                          van der Waarden who first proposed the theory
                          that the MUL.APIN applied to a time period circa 1000 BC,
                          (which Hunger and Pingree accept, contrary to Papke),

                          but then, based on Papke's observations
                          and some new one's of his own,
                          van der Waarden CHANGED his mind to a date of 2340 BC
                          and accepted Papke's conclusions later (1984).

                          The writings by B.L. van der Waarden are :
                          1) "Babylonian Astronomy II. The Thirty-Six Stars",
                          JNES 8 (1949) 6-26
                          JNES = Journal of Near Eastern Studies (Chicago).
                          2) "Babylonian Astronomy III. Astronomical Computations",
                          JNES 10 (1954), 20-34
                          3) "Die Anfaenge der Astronomie", Groningen (1966)
                          4) "Greek Astronomical Calendars I. The Parapegma ofEuctemon,"
                          AHES 29 (1984) 101-114.
                          (AHES = Archives for the History of the Exact Sciences)


                          Although the arguments of Hunger and Pingree are understandable,
                          "their" date of ca. 1000 BC for MUL.APIN astronomy
                          can be regarded as clearly erroneous and ca. one Sothic Year
                          of 1460 years removed from the correct date
                          . Indeed, the evidence shows that later changes were made by scribes for later Babylonian tablet copies. The copied tablets are younger, their astronomy far older.

                          Even Hunger and Pingree themselves admit that "two" sets
                          of data seem to be combined in the known MUL.APIN tablets.

                           Moreover, one of their arguments - that cuneiform texts in
                          2300 BC like this are not known - is not persuasive. It begs the
                          question - presuming the very thing to be proven.

                          More important is Papke's account that Kallisthenes,
                          an officer of Alexander the Great, had sent
                          astronomical data of the Babylonians back to his uncle Aristotle,
                          stating they were exactly 1903 years old.

                          Such an exact historical date is already quite remarkable,
                          probably pointing to some round number of calculation.
                          Alexander the Great's life  is today dated to 356-323 BC

                          (we here at LexiLine think there is an error here in chronology)
                          but even the mainstream date plus 1903 years of age

                          gives something close to 2300 BC. as the round number reference date
                          and in fact Papke argues that the cuneiform tablets go back ca. 2340 BC.

                          Indeed, as Hunger and Pingree correctly note: "the composition of some of the relevant texts can be dated to earlier periods...the sources for certain sections of MUL.APIN can be considered earlier than extant exemplars of MUL.APIN".


                          Papke handles these matters in his book,
                          Die Sterne von Babylon, in pages 237-276, pointing out that
                          the crucial error was initially made by Epping, Kugler, and
                          Fotheringham in their identification of KAK.SI.SA with Sirius
                          (an identification which van der Waarden first followed,
                          before changing his mind) - whereas the Seleucid texts state
                          explicitly that KAK.SI.SA and BAN are separated by 20 days
                          in rising - so that KAK.SI.SA can not originally have been Sirius.

                          As I have shown in previous pages on MUL.APIN [see MUL.APIN Corrected], KAK.SI.SA the lance runs from Alphard in Hydra (where it sticks into Hydra) to the shaft Monoceros, so that ALL other writers have been wrong thus far on this score. Only Alphard and Monoceros are reconcilable with all of the mentions of KAK.SI.SA on MUL.APIN and this for a date of ca. 2300 BC. Moreover, I show other proofs in previous pages - especially the addition of later lines by the scribes relating to KAK.SI.SA - indicating that the tablets were copied ca. 720 BC.


                           
                          Now note the text "ca. one Sothic Year of 1460 years removed from the correct date. Indeed, the evidence shows that later changes were made by scribes for later Babylonian tablet copies. The copied tablets are younger, their astronomy far older. Even Hunger and Pingree themselves admit that "two" sets of data seem to be combined in the known MUL.APIN tablets."
                           
                          I am content with the Mul.Apin being at least as old as circa 2340 +/-20 BC, no problem with that, but it doesn't mean that suddenly a new 'UNIQUE heaven occurred' around that time. That is quite an exaggeration and far from the truth. And as you know, the Sothis cycle is precisely that: a cycle. Some of the information perhaps goes back another Sothis cycle. Who knows. But apart from that, and this is old news, the Mul-Apin are certainly composed from more than one set of data. Especially astrological Mesopotamian texts consistently recorded historical events cyclically within the same list, without distinguishing one period from the other, which is error-prone and makes it difficult to date the events. This could also be true of the planisphere. You should be aware of the possibility or even the probability that two or more sets of data from different periods were combined or superimposed onto the planisphere.
                           
                          So in this case I have no problem of accepting the row of seven dots to be one planetary formation dated from one time, and some other dots being apparently the same planets in different positions dated from another time.
                           
                          <<The path of the sun and the path of the planets intersect each other in 2 places. >>
                           
                          I have problems with your 'path of the sun'. For me the ecliptica is the usual path of both the sun and the planets. If you are talking about the galactic equator, which is the path of the sun through the Milky Way, then it's best to say so. However, your 'path of the sun' is apparently something else, not at all where the sun goes. Apparently you have some other astromical path in mind, and can even track it though the millennia, but what is it if it's not the ecliptic or the Galactic equator? I'm not aware of this one, so tell me more about it.
                           
                          <<I suspect, however, that the appearance of 7 planets in the nightime sky, from sunset to sunrise; has happened a few times in the last 6000 years, not just in 8000bc as you suggest.>>
                           
                          Well, not in 8000 BC, that's for sure, but in 8847 and 8845 BC. This reoccurrence two yours later is due to the fact that Mars reappears about every two years in the same section of the sky. And for the alignment to be complete, both Mars, Sun and Moon need to be in the same area as well, opposite the Earth. Since the other planets are slower, the alignment was still true in 8845 BC, after which the planets dispersed more.
                           
                          And yes, there are other dates in which the planetes were all aligned within a few constellations, although rare but none of them so far with clear meaningful associations with the Flood story and none of them with even Pluto, Neptune and Uranus in the same erea, at least not recently within the last eight millennia BC. So this already makes the year 8847 BC rather unique from an astronomical point of view, whether the Flooddate or not.
                           
                          <<The book of Enoch speaks of such an alignment at creation.>>
                           
                          I'm not sure to which text-line you are referring, but this alignment is certainly not the one at creation. It is a logical thought that all planets started aligned at the very beginning, a thought which is also expressed in the Indian sacred books as 'creation time'. However, according to the Book of Enoch, the Flood started when two stones were removed from the Pleiades, which produced two holes in the sky from which the heavenly waters (rains) started to pour down on Earth. This is simply a discription of the beginning of the 56 days of meteorshowers, known as the Pleiad rains (the Taurids), since these seem te come from the direction of the Pleiads during their midnight culmination each year. These Pleiad rains consist of:
                           
                          8 days - light rains
                          40 days - heavy rains
                          8 days - light rains.
                           
                          Now compare this with the Biblical Flood story:
                           
                          7 days waiting in the Ark before the Flood  - compare: 8 days of light Pleiad rains
                          40 days of heavy rain (the Flood on the 27th of 2nd month) - compare: 40 days of heavy Pleiad rains
                          7 days witing in the Ark until the Earth is dry - compare: 8 days of light Pleid rains
                           
                          Now when did the Pleiad rains fall on the 27th of the 2nd month? This is only possible around 9500-8500 BC, the beginning of the Last Ice Age. Today the fall in November, and very much less spectacular than in ancient times.
                           
                          So indeed the Flood story is associated with a meteorite shower, which may or may not have involved also one or two great meteors. The Pleiads culminate at midnight on the 32nd day of the 'heavy rain's' of the Pleiads, and you must take 'midnight' as the moment the sun passes the meridian below the Earth. So from this it is possible to calculated when the 56 Pleid rains fell in earlier days. In 8847 BC the Pleiads culminated around 26/27 August, which means that the 40 days of heavy pleiad rains probably began to fall around 29/30 of July or beginning of August, which is quite close to my date of 14 August for the planisphere. Spring began that year on 28 May. So the 27th day of the second 30-day month of Spring was July 23, which is als very close. 1 Nisan (first lunar month, Semitic) was June 19. So the 27th day of the second lunar month (of 30 days each) was August 14, precisely my date for the planisphere. Now this is interesting. From a purely lunar viewpoint the 27th of the second lunar month was August 13, but from a 30 day per month count it was August 14. The Bible (as Hebrews and all Semites in general did) indeed uses a solilunar calendar starting with the first visible Lunar crescent in Spring), but it is also true that the Flood story counts the months as consisting of 30 days each, like the Egyptians did. The earliest Egyptian calendar was also lunar, so this is not contradictory. A lunar calendar may have had just one epoch (such as 1 Nisan) as New Year's Day based on observation, and then each month simply counted as 30 days without conforming to observation. Such a calendar is later easily replaced by a solar epoch to which 5 or 6 days were added to complete the solar year. So from this survey it seems clear that in 8847 BC the Biblical 40 days of heavy rain began on 14 August conform my interpretation of the astronomical pattern of the planisphere. But if my calculation of the Pleiad rains is correct, those heavy rains actually began to fall 14 or 15 days earlier. However, this may be not precisely correct. I will check this with a colleague, who knows more about this. It may very well be that the convergence center of the Pleiad rains and thus the culmination point slowly changes position over time and that  in those very early days the heavy rains indeed began to fall on 14 August in 8847 BC. This would be a fantastic confirmation. Therefore, I will let you know as soon as I know more.
                           
                          Regards,
                          Ian
                           
                           
                            
                           
                           

                           
                           
                            
                           


                          From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                          To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 6:39:25 PM
                          Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                           

                          Greetings Ian,

                          You wrote:
                          "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, ...> > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? "

                          The path of the sun and the path of the planets intersect each other in 2 places. IT takes a very long time (hundreds of years) for these paths to change noticeably. If these 2 paths did indeed overlay each other so that the planetary and sun's paths are right on top of each other, then these parallel/overlaying paths would do so for hundreds of years, not one day here and one day 2 years later.

                          There are many short internet articles on Bond and Hempsell's book, but they all basically say the same thing, and only cover a very small tidbit of their book. These online news clipping 'advertisements' don't discuss the existance of the planets in certain constellations on the planisphere.

                          So, since you lack much of this knowledge, I can understand why you might think the 7 dots might refer to the location of the 7 planets in 1 particular constellation or even between a couple constellations. I suspect, however, that the appearance of 7 planets in the nightime sky, from sunset to sunrise; has happened a few times in the last 6000 years, not just in 8000bc as you suggest. I'll try to look up some info I have on that if you'ld like. The book of Enoch speaks of such an alignment at creation.

                          I believe the 7 dots indicate where the path of the planets intersect 2 specific constellations and the angle of intersection. The Mul Apin tablets, which are contemporary with the planisphere, are divided up into 3 series of tablets. Each of the 3 describe a different path, namely the path of the sun, the planets, and the celestial equator. So it is NOT surprizing that the planisphere would show the path of the sun and the path of the planets on it.

                          BTW, since the MUL APIN describes the constellations these 3 paths travel through, one website dates the MUL APIN to 2340bc as follows:

                          http://www.lexiline .com/lexiline/ lexi42.htm

                          "The MUL.APIN series of astronomical tablets
                          - now found in the British Museum -
                          describe a UNIQUE heaven which occurred
                          at ca. 2340 BC, plus or minus 20 years."

                          You wrote:
                          "I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate."

                          Yes! Absolutely!

                          So now there are 3 archeological witnesses to the date of the flood:

                          1. 2361bc - Assyrian Planisphere
                          2. 2345bc - George Dodwell's graph of the Earth's tilt
                          3. 2340bc +/-20 years - Mul Apin clay tablets.

                          Pretty nice eh?

                          I am familiar with Gary-David- Thompson's website. My opinion of it, is that it is one of those papers which is all critique but doesn't give alternatives. What does he think the Planishere says? I dunno. He doesn't say. He makes a big deal about Bond and Hempsell translating MUL as constellation (he claims it just means 'star'), yet in this same article he does the same thing: "The Pegasus-square (mul Aš-iku)". The fact is, the planisphere uses the MUL word to refer to several constellations. It says 'The constellation (MUL) of the young twins' and 'The constellation (MUL) of the Shepherd of the Milky Way'.

                          I no doubt disagree with some of Bond and Hempsell's conclusions and interpretations and even a couple of their translations (particular ones that I studied); but I don't throw out the baby with the bath water as those Thompson men do.

                          Toby

                          --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Toby,
                          >
                          > The parrot part is what I quoted, the rest is selfstudy. No, I haven't studied Bond and Hempsell's book (yet), if that's what you mean, but I do not recall anyone having identified any planets in any section either. So I have no agreement or disagreement with either their or your view regarding planetary positions. If it's just a dot being there, it could be anything, but please fill me in what arguments there are for planetary positions.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Ian Onvlee
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                          > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 4:13:07 AM
                          > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                          >
                          >  
                          > Greetings Ian,
                          >
                          > Thanks for your interest.
                          >
                          > You wrote:
                          > > I know this planisphere.
                          >
                          > But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots, however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple phrases which he's been taught.
                          >
                          > Answer me this:
                          >
                          > Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on what planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?
                          >
                          > Toby
                          >
                          > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > OK Toby,
                          > >
                          > > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is not dated of course.
                          > >
                          > > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby: http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path. html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
                          > >
                          > > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell (http://www.theregis ter.co.uk/ 2008/03/31/ kofels_asteroid/) dated the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
                          > >
                          > > Quote
                          > > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
                          > > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.
                          > > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
                          > > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".
                          > > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
                          > > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.
                          > > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.
                          > > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."
                          > > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
                          > > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
                          > > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens� - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.
                          > > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
                          > > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
                          > > Unquote
                          > >
                          > > See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9. html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
                          > >
                          > > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct
                          > > Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later
                          > > such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
                          > >
                          > > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the sector with Gemini in the planisphere.  The sector with the great arrow then corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
                          > > bowman) above  Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
                          > >
                          > > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the oceans suddenly rose dramatically  and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > > Ian Onvlee
                          > >


                        • Toby
                          Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction Greetings... Sorry, the pic s don t show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 4 7:06 PM
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                            Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                            Greetings...  

                            Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                            HTML clipboard

                             

                            The Date Design   

                            The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date

                            1. The Planisphere  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                            2. the day of the month,
                            3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                            4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.

                            Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.

                            The Meteor Path Design   

                            If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?

                            Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.

                            That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.

                            Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).

                            Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.

                            The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.   There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in.  The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.

                            Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations.. All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads,  forming the 'X'.

                            I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.

                             Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.

                            Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.

                            Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars.  This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick figure of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.

                            At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the  Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector. 

                              Toby

                          • Ian Onvlee
                            Proficiat Toby, And on Monday 10 March 3956 BC the Moon is in conjuntion with the Sun, 43/44 days before Spring, so that all planets including the sun and
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 4 8:59 PM
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                              Proficiat Toby,
                               
                              And on Monday 10 March 3956 BC the Moon is in conjuntion with the Sun, 43/44 days before Spring, so that all planets including the sun and moon, and even Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are lined up on one side of the zodiac again. Nice work. But what does it mean? To what does it compare?
                               
                              For me it's interesting that it's exactly 351 years before the beginning of Dynasty I of Egypt according to my reconstruction of the Egyptian chronology, while Manetho (per Eusebius) spreaks of a line of 'ten kings of This' who reigned for 350 years prior to the First Dynasty. According to archaelogy there was indeed a line of predynastic kings at Abydos/This prior to the First Dynasty. 14 royal tombs belong to this era, the 15th being that of Narmer. Perhaps it was viewed as a kind of epoch by the Egyptians and other cultures, but I have no further clue (apart from the Masoretic and perhaps Indian astronomy).
                               
                              Regarding the planisphere: the names kakkab Dil-gan and kakkab Apin, which suggests two planets, are found along the path in the sector with the seven planets. The scholars Thompson, Epping and Strassmaier identified Apin as the planet Mars (contra your position of Mars in Gemini). In the sector with the ellipse we read 'kakkab Siz.zi.an.na', which also suggests a planet, and in the sector with Gemini we read 'kabbah Mash.tab.ba' (Gemini, [Mash.]tab.ba.gal.gal) as well as 'kakkab Sib.zi.an.na', usually thought to be Jupiter. There are numbers in the next sector:
                               
                              40 40 40
                              40 40 20 22 22.
                               
                              totalling 264, and in the next sector, mentioning Ashur:
                               
                              100 100 100 100 100 100 100
                               
                              totalling 700. Do you have an explanation for these figures?
                               
                               
                              Regards,
                              Ian Onvlee  


                              From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                              To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 10:43:49 PM
                              Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                               

                              Greetings IAN

                              You wrote:
                              "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC."

                              For what it's worth:

                              . 3956bc Feb 25
                              - The 2nd book of Enoch chapter 30
                              - Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Sun, Jupiter, Mercury all line up (West to east)

                              This might be the creation alignment of 7 planets. If so, and if the flood occured 1656 years after creation as Gen 4 and 5 attest, then the flood would be reckoned to 2300bc (which is within 61 years of the planisphere date.....

                              Toby


                            • Ian Onvlee
                              Dear Toby, You say:
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 5 2:22 AM
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                                Dear Toby,
                                 
                                You say:
                                 
                                <<

                                The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date

                                1. The Planisphere  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                2. the day of the month,
                                3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.

                                >>

                                 

                                Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?

                                 

                                Regards,

                                Ian Onvlee



                                From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                 

                                Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                Greetings...  

                                Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.

                                 

                                The Date Design   

                                The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date

                                1. The Planisphere  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                2. the day of the month,
                                3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.

                                Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.

                                The Meteor Path Design   

                                If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?

                                Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.

                                That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.

                                Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).

                                Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.

                                The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.   There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in.  The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.

                                Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads,  forming the 'X'.

                                I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.

                                 Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.

                                Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.

                                Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars.  This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick figure of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.

                                At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the  Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector. 

                                  Toby


                              • Toby
                                Greetings Ian, ... In the Cancer sector, see: http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Ancient_Planisphere_K8538.html There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 5 7:33 PM
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                                  Greetings Ian,

                                  You wrote:
                                  > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?

                                  In the Cancer sector, see:

                                  http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Ancient_Planisphere_K8538.html

                                  There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.

                                  Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:

                                  B318 B318 "the rising sun".

                                  The line beneath it is

                                  B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.

                                  Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:

                                  B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%

                                  Which is interpreted as:
                                  20 120 20 2 20 %%%

                                  where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                  and the whole thing is:

                                  20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                  = 20 days and 142.3US

                                  where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes

                                  so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes

                                  Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so

                                  569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes

                                  So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes

                                  So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.

                                  BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.

                                  There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.

                                  Toby

                                  --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Toby,
                                  >
                                  > You say:
                                  >
                                  > <<
                                  >
                                  > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                  > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                  > 2. the day of the month,
                                  > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                  > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                  > >>
                                  > Â
                                  > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                  > Â
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Ian Onvlee
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                  > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                  > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                  >
                                  > Â
                                  > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                  >
                                  > Greetings... Â
                                  >
                                  > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                  >
                                  > Â
                                  > The Date Design Â
                                  > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                  > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                  > 2. the day of the month,
                                  > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                  > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                  > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                  > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                  > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                  > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                  > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                  > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                  > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                  > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                  > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                  > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                  > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                  > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                  > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick figure
                                  > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                  > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                  > Â Toby
                                  >
                                • Ian Onvlee
                                  Hi Toby, I m not convinced that these interpretations are correct. Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying:
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 6 3:08 AM
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                                    Hi Toby,
                                     
                                    I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                     
                                    Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                     
                                    Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                     
                                    Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                    Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                     
                                    Regards,
                                    Ian Onvlee
                                     


                                    From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                    To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                    Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                     

                                    Greetings Ian,

                                    You wrote:

                                    > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?

                                    In the Cancer sector, see:

                                    http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html

                                    There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.

                                    Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:

                                    B318 B318 "the rising sun".

                                    The line beneath it is

                                    B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.

                                    Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:

                                    B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%

                                    Which is interpreted as:
                                    20 120 20 2 20 %%%

                                    where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                    and the whole thing is:

                                    20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                    = 20 days and 142.3US

                                    where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes

                                    so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes

                                    Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so

                                    569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes

                                    So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes

                                    So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.

                                    BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.

                                    There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.

                                    Toby

                                    --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Toby,
                                    >
                                    > You say:
                                    >
                                    > <<
                                    >
                                    > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                    > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                    > 2. the day of the month,
                                    > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                    > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                    > >>
                                    > Â
                                    > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                    > Â
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Ian Onvlee
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                    > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                    > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                    >
                                    > Â
                                    > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                    >
                                    > Greetings... Â
                                    >
                                    > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                    >
                                    > Â
                                    > The Date Design Â
                                    > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                    > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                    > 2. the day of the month,
                                    > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                    > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                    > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                    > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                    > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                    > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                    > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                    > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                    > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                    > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                    > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                    > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                    > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                    > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                    > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick figure
                                    > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                    > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                    > Â Toby
                                    >


                                  • Toby
                                    Hi Ian, ... I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 6 10:43 AM
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                                      Hi Ian,

                                      You wrote:
                                      > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured.

                                      I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.

                                      The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As further evidence, though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial scribing of the word Taurus in it.

                                      Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:

                                      http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi174.htm
                                      ====================================================
                                      Column II
                                      1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
                                      (wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
                                      AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.


                                      2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN.NA),
                                      d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
                                      AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,

                                      3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
                                      the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK: This is Gemini, the twins,
                                      ====================================================

                                      Please note the constellations are given in this order:

                                      Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself something like this:

                                      Gemini Sector
                                      Gemini Stick Figure
                                      Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
                                      --------------------- (Border)
                                      Taurus Sector
                                      Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                                      (Partial spelling of Taurus)


                                      Make sense so far?

                                      Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the cuneiform:
                                      SIPA.ZI.AN.NA

                                      This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the planisphere.

                                      You wrote:
                                      "It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector"

                                      And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3 constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.

                                      You wrote:
                                      "Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.
                                      > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: "

                                      I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.

                                      You wrote:
                                      " Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."

                                      As far as I know .....
                                      As far as I know .....
                                      As far as I know .....

                                      Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:

                                      Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

                                      Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.

                                      Toby

                                      --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Toby,
                                      >
                                      > I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                      >
                                      > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                      >
                                      > Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                      >
                                      > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                      >
                                      > Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      > Ian Onvlee
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                      > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                      > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > Greetings Ian,
                                      >
                                      > You wrote:
                                      > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                      >
                                      > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                      >
                                      > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                      >
                                      > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                      >
                                      > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                      >
                                      > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                      >
                                      > The line beneath it is
                                      >
                                      > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                      >
                                      > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                      >
                                      > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                      >
                                      > Which is interpreted as:
                                      > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                      >
                                      > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                      > and the whole thing is:
                                      >
                                      > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                      > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                      >
                                      > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                      >
                                      > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                      >
                                      > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                      >
                                      > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                      >
                                      > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                      >
                                      > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                      >
                                      > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                      >
                                      > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                      >
                                      > Toby
                                      >
                                      > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear Toby,
                                      > >
                                      > > You say:
                                      > >
                                      > > <<
                                      > >
                                      > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                      > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                      > > 2. the day of the month,
                                      > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                      > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                      > > >>
                                      > > Â
                                      > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                      > > Â
                                      > > Regards,
                                      > > Ian Onvlee
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                      > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                      > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                      > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                      > >
                                      > > Â
                                      > > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                      > >
                                      > > Greetings... Â
                                      > >
                                      > > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                      > >
                                      > > Â
                                      > > The Date Design Â
                                      > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                      > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                      > > 2. the day of the month,
                                      > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                      > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                      > > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                      > > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                      > > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                      > > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                      > > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                      > > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                      > > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                      > > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                      > > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                      > > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                      > > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                      > > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                      > > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick
                                      > figure
                                      > > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                      > > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                      > > Â Toby
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Opuslola@aol.com
                                      Toby wrote the below! Greetings IAN You wrote: Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 6 10:19 PM
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                                        Toby wrote the below!
                                        Greetings IAN

                                        You wrote:
                                        "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC."

                                        For what it's worth:
                                         
                                        Dear Toby!  For what its worth, what if all of those planets were known when the "planisphere" was made?  Or were those planets, like the small moons of Mars, just imagined like a famous writer seemed to have done?  It seems that he even named them?
                                         
                                        Why don't you consider that the seven things aligned were 1. the Sun; 2. Mercury; 3. Venus; 4. The Earth; 5. Mars; 6. Jupiter; and 7. Saturn?  Why could not we believe these great minds did not perceive a place outside of our own solar system to make there progression?  It beats the progression of telescopes!
                                         
                                        Regards,
                                         
                                        Ron




                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                        To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sun, Apr 4, 2010 3:43 pm
                                        Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                         
                                        Greetings IAN

                                        You wrote:
                                        "Why draw seven dots in a row if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC."

                                        For what it's worth:

                                        . 3956bc Feb 25
                                        - The 2nd book of Enoch chapter 30
                                        - Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Sun, Jupiter, Mercury all line up (West to east)

                                        This might be the creation alignment of 7 planets. If so, and if the flood occured 1656 years after creation as Gen 4 and 5 attest, then the flood would be reckoned to 2300bc (which is within 61 years of the planisphere date.....

                                        Toby

                                      • Ian Onvlee
                                        Hi Toby, Now you are not making sense to me. Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 7 3:38 AM
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                                          Hi Toby,
                                           
                                          Now you are not making sense to me.
                                           
                                          Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere.
                                           
                                          Secondly, you say:
                                           
                                          << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>
                                           
                                          What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini, not three sectors apart. The sectors of Taurus, Gemini and Cancer should form one consecutive row of sectors. If they were three sectors apart your Cancer sector cannot be the Cancer sector, as it couldn't be the Taurus sector either in that case. So I agree that Taurus, Orion and Gemini are next to each other in the Zodiac in that order and that the three sectors must be next to each other, and that's how they are in my interpretation. I only don't agree with your direction of that order on the planisphere.
                                           
                                          You say:
                                           
                                          <<I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.>>
                                           
                                          Who says so? And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunrise. They were in fact just about to rise, which can be predicted without being seen yet. However, what makes you think that these 24 minutes were exactly like our 24 minutes on the clock? Who knows if they were in fact more like our half hour? I don't expect any ancient to know the time by the minute (our minute) precise, let alone to record it. It's a technology of our age. 
                                           
                                          You say:
                                           
                                          <<Doesn't sound like you KNOW.>>
                                           
                                          Indeed, I don't know. Nobody does.
                                           
                                          << But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:

                                          Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

                                          Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                          >>
                                           
                                          Your point here is futile. It says nothing of the existence of any technology, apart from the ability to work metals, which is not in discussion. It's about minute-precise time-keeping, which does not make sense in those ancient days. The rising of a certain star, sunset and sunrise - those were the time-keepers. Who needed an accurate clock-device to keep time by the minute (our minute) precise in those days? Nobody, really! It's fiction. Nor did anyone need an airplane.
                                           
                                          Regards,
                                          Ian Onvlee
                                           
                                           
                                             


                                          From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                          To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 7:43:54 PM
                                          Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                           

                                          Hi Ian,

                                          You wrote:

                                          > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured.

                                          I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.

                                          The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As further evidence, though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial scribing of the word Taurus in it.

                                          Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:

                                          http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi174.htm
                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                          Column II
                                          1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
                                          (wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
                                          AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.

                                          2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN. NA),
                                          d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
                                          AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,

                                          3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
                                          the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK: This is Gemini, the twins,
                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                          Please note the constellations are given in this order:

                                          Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself something like this:

                                          Gemini Sector
                                          Gemini Stick Figure
                                          Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
                                          ------------ --------- (Border)
                                          Taurus Sector
                                          Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                                          (Partial spelling of Taurus)

                                          Make sense so far?

                                          Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the cuneiform:
                                          SIPA.ZI.AN.NA

                                          This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the planisphere.

                                          You wrote:
                                          "It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector"

                                          And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3 constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.

                                          You wrote:
                                          "Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.
                                          > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset:
                                          "

                                          I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.

                                          You wrote:
                                          " Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."

                                          As far as I know .....
                                          As far as I know .....
                                          As far as I know .....

                                          Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:

                                          Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

                                          Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.

                                          Toby

                                          --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Toby,
                                          >
                                          > I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                          >
                                          > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                          >
                                          > Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                          >
                                          > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                          >
                                          > Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          > Ian Onvlee
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                          > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                          > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                          > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > Greetings Ian,
                                          >
                                          > You wrote:
                                          > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                          >
                                          > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                          >
                                          > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                          >
                                          > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                          >
                                          > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                          >
                                          > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                          >
                                          > The line beneath it is
                                          >
                                          > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                          >
                                          > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                          >
                                          > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                          >
                                          > Which is interpreted as:
                                          > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                          >
                                          > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                          > and the whole thing is:
                                          >
                                          > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                          > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                          >
                                          > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                          >
                                          > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                          >
                                          > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                          >
                                          > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                          >
                                          > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                          >
                                          > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                          >
                                          > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                          >
                                          > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                          >
                                          > Toby
                                          >
                                          > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Toby,
                                          > >
                                          > > You say:
                                          > >
                                          > > <<
                                          > >
                                          > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                          > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                          > > 2. the day of the month,
                                          > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                          > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > Â
                                          > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                          > > Â
                                          > > Regards,
                                          > > Ian Onvlee
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                          > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                          > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                          > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                          > >
                                          > > Â
                                          > > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                          > >
                                          > > Greetings... Â
                                          > >
                                          > > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                          > >
                                          > > Â
                                          > > The Date Design Â
                                          > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                          > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                          > > 2. the day of the month,
                                          > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                          > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                          > > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                          > > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                          > > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                          > > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                          > > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                          > > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                          > > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                          > > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                          > > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                          > > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                          > > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                          > > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                          > > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick
                                          > figure
                                          > > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                          > > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                          > > Â Toby
                                          > >
                                          >


                                        • Ian Onvlee
                                          Erratrum: I said: It should be: And I did not say the Pleiads were already
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 7 9:03 AM
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                                            Erratrum:
                                             
                                            I said:
                                            <<And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunrise.>>
                                             
                                            It should be:

                                            And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunset.
                                             
                                            Regards,
                                            Ian Onvlee


                                            From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
                                            To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 12:38:36 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                             

                                            Hi Toby,
                                             
                                            Now you are not making sense to me.
                                             
                                            Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere.
                                             
                                            Secondly, you say:
                                             
                                            << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>
                                             
                                            What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini, not three sectors apart. The sectors of Taurus, Gemini and Cancer should form one consecutive row of sectors. If they were three sectors apart your Cancer sector cannot be the Cancer sector, as it couldn't be the Taurus sector either in that case. So I agree that Taurus, Orion and Gemini are next to each other in the Zodiac in that order and that the three sectors must be next to each other, and that's how they are in my interpretation. I only don't agree with your direction of that order on the planisphere.
                                             
                                            You say:
                                             
                                            <<I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.>>
                                             
                                            Who says so? And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunrise. They were in fact just about to rise, which can be predicted without being seen yet. However, what makes you think that these 24 minutes were exactly like our 24 minutes on the clock? Who knows if they were in fact more like our half hour? I don't expect any ancient to know the time by the minute (our minute) precise, let alone to record it. It's a technology of our age. 
                                             
                                            You say:
                                             
                                            <<Doesn't sound like you KNOW.>>
                                             
                                            Indeed, I don't know. Nobody does.
                                             
                                            << But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:

                                            Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

                                            Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                            >>
                                             
                                            Your point here is futile. It says nothing of the existence of any technology, apart from the ability to work metals, which is not in discussion. It's about minute-precise time-keeping, which does not make sense in those ancient days. The rising of a certain star, sunset and sunrise - those were the time-keepers. Who needed an accurate clock-device to keep time by the minute (our minute) precise in those days? Nobody, really! It's fiction. Nor did anyone need an airplane.
                                             
                                            Regards,
                                            Ian Onvlee
                                             
                                             
                                               


                                            From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@yahoo. com>
                                            To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                            Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 7:43:54 PM
                                            Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                             

                                            Hi Ian,

                                            You wrote:

                                            > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured.

                                            I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.

                                            The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As further evidence, though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial scribing of the word Taurus in it.

                                            Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:

                                            http://www.lexiline .com/lexiline/ lexi174.htm
                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                            Column II
                                            1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
                                            (wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
                                            AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.

                                            2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN. NA),
                                            d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
                                            AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,

                                            3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
                                            the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK: This is Gemini, the twins,
                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                            Please note the constellations are given in this order:

                                            Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself something like this:

                                            Gemini Sector
                                            Gemini Stick Figure
                                            Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
                                            ------------ --------- (Border)
                                            Taurus Sector
                                            Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                                            (Partial spelling of Taurus)

                                            Make sense so far?

                                            Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the cuneiform:
                                            SIPA.ZI.AN.NA

                                            This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the planisphere.

                                            You wrote:
                                            "It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector"

                                            And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3 constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.

                                            You wrote:
                                            "Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.
                                            > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in
                                            my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: "

                                            I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.

                                            You wrote:
                                            " Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."

                                            As far as I know .....
                                            As far as I know .....
                                            As far as I know .....

                                            Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:

                                            Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

                                            Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.

                                            Toby

                                            --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Toby,
                                            >
                                            > I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                            >
                                            > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                            >
                                            > Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                            >
                                            > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                            >
                                            > Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > Ian Onvlee
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                            > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                            > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                            > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            > Greetings Ian,
                                            >
                                            > You wrote:
                                            > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                            >
                                            > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                            >
                                            > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                            >
                                            > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                            >
                                            > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                            >
                                            > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                            >
                                            > The line beneath it is
                                            >
                                            > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                            >
                                            > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                            >
                                            > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                            >
                                            > Which is interpreted as:
                                            > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                            >
                                            > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                            > and the whole thing is:
                                            >
                                            > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                            > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                            >
                                            > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                            >
                                            > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                            >
                                            > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                            >
                                            > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                            >
                                            > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                            >
                                            > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                            >
                                            > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                            >
                                            > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                            >
                                            > Toby
                                            >
                                            > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear Toby,
                                            > >
                                            > > You say:
                                            > >
                                            > > <<
                                            > >
                                            > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                            > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                            > > 2. the day of the month,
                                            > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                            > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > Â
                                            > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                            > > Â
                                            > > Regards,
                                            > > Ian Onvlee
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                            > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                            > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                            > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                            > >
                                            > > Â
                                            > > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                            > >
                                            > > Greetings... Â
                                            > >
                                            > > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                            > >
                                            > > Â
                                            > > The Date Design Â
                                            > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                            > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                            > > 2. the day of the month,
                                            > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                            > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                            > > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                            > > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                            > > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                            > > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                            > > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                            > > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                            > > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                            > > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                            > > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                            > > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                            > > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                            > > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                            > > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick
                                            > figure
                                            > > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                            > > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                            > > Â Toby
                                            > >
                                            >



                                          • Toby
                                            Greetings, There seems to be some nice correlations between this K8538 Assyrian Planisphere and the Mul Apin series of tablets in regards to some dating and
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Apr 8 5:15 PM
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                                              Greetings,

                                              There seems to be some nice correlations between this K8538 Assyrian Planisphere and the Mul Apin series of tablets in regards to some dating and timing. First the dating:

                                              Andis Kaulins, a well-published author and expert on the Mul Apin Cuniform clay tablets states:

                                              "Hunger and Pingree themselves note that it was van der Waarden who first proposed the theory that the MUL.APIN applied to a time period circa 1000 BC (which Hunger and Pingree accept, contrary to Papke), but then, based on Papke's observations and some new one's of his own, van der Waarden CHANGED his mind to a date of 2340 BC and accepted Papke's conclusions later (1984)."

                                              http://lexiline.blogspot.com/2008/03/age-of-mulapin-according-to-andis.html

                                              So basically Kaulins and Warner believe the Mul Apin tablets were written in 2340bc +/-20 years (albeit some things were added afterwards...). I believe the planisphere was written in 2361bc, based on the location of certain planets in certain constellations while the path of the sun was interecting a certain constellation at a certain angle. My 2361bc date appears as #5 on Bond and Hempsells list of possible dates. This time frame also corresponds fairly nicely to Dodwell's estimate of the flood as 2345bc using his earth-tilt data.

                                              Another correlation has to do with time. Both the planisphere and the "mul apin" tablets refer to the time of the rising of the sun in terms of the Sumerian time units called US. They divided up each day into 12 Beru (we use 24 hours), so 1 Beru is about 2 hours. Then they devide each Beru into 30 US (we divide each hour into 60 minutes). So 1 Assyrian day would be: 12 Beru/day * 30 US/Beru = 360 US/day.

                                              This means, to me, that the Assyrians had a means to measure accurately down to 1US. How did they do it?

                                              Well, I'm not sure that it really is as important as verifying that they they could. In the mul apin, Tablet Nr.86378, we see that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily'. See "49." and "50." at the following website:
                                              http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi178.htm

                                              Obviously '4 minutes' is an interpretation of cuneiform. Let's see how many minutes are in 1US.

                                              We have 24hours/day * 60minutes/hour = 1440 minutes/day

                                              How many minutes in a US?

                                              1440 minutes/day / 360US/day = 4 minutes/US

                                              In other words, 1 US = 4 minutes

                                              So when the interpretaion of the Mul Apin says that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily', the cuneiform obviously stated this as 1 US.

                                              Now, we don't know for sure what method the Assyrians used to make this time measurement, but there is alot of information about Water Clocks out there on the net. How accurate was this 1US measurement?

                                              One website says this:

                                              "While primitive Clepsydras were often much more accurate than watching the sun, they were still not accurate to today's standards, the best being accurate to within 15 minutes per day: impressive for 5000 years ago, but not acceptable today."
                                              ---http://everything2.com/user/Lifix/writeups/Clepsydra

                                              Well,
                                              15minutes of accuracy in 1 day
                                              360US in 1 day

                                              So, 15 minutes of accuracy/day * 1day/360us =
                                              1 minute of accuracy per 24 US.
                                              i.e. 60 seconds of accuracy per 24US
                                              i.e. 2.5 seconds per 1us.

                                              The Assyrians could measure 1US (=4minutes) within 2.5 seconds using a water clock. Let's put this in perspective. 4 minutes is 240seconds.

                                              2.5/240 * 100 * 100% = 1.04%

                                              In other words, the Assyrians could measure time to 1% accuracy with a water clock.

                                              I've included, below my signature, the timing information on the planisphere which tells, in US units the time from sunset the meteors arrived, and the time from the meteor arrival to sunrise. It shows that the night-time lasted 142.3us * 4minutes/us = 569.2minutes.

                                              So, using the 1% accuracy, they could be off 5.7 minutes

                                              Not a big deal.

                                              Toby



                                              --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <zoe_lithoi@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Greetings Ian,
                                              >
                                              > You wrote:
                                              > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                              >
                                              > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                              >
                                              > http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Ancient_Planisphere_K8538.html
                                              >
                                              > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                              >
                                              > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                              >
                                              > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                              >
                                              > The line beneath it is
                                              >
                                              > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                              >
                                              > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                              >
                                              > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                              >
                                              > Which is interpreted as:
                                              > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                              >
                                              > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                              > and the whole thing is:
                                              >
                                              > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                              > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                              >
                                              > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                              >
                                              > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                              >
                                              > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                              >
                                              > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                              >
                                              > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                              >
                                              > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                              >
                                              > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                              >
                                              > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                              >
                                              > Toby
                                            • Opuslola@aol.com
                                              Please note, that in another post, which may have been deleted because I used a common word that can or was considered as insulting was deleted! But, I
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Apr 8 7:05 PM
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                                                Please note, that in another post, which may have been deleted because I used a common word that can or was considered as insulting was deleted!  But, I mentioned that East!, and Orion, may well have been connected?
                                                 
                                                Thus the below words concerning the East!



                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15 pm
                                                Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 3: Assyrian Planisphere: It's age and time measurements

                                                 
                                                Greetings,

                                                There seems to be some nice correlations between this K8538 Assyrian Planisphere and the Mul Apin series of tablets in regards to some dating and timing. First the dating:

                                                Andis Kaulins, a well-published author and expert on the Mul Apin Cuniform clay tablets states:

                                                "Hunger and Pingree themselves note that it was van der Waarden who first proposed the theory that the MUL.APIN applied to a time period circa 1000 BC (which Hunger and Pingree accept, contrary to Papke), but then, based on Papke's observations and some new one's of his own, van der Waarden CHANGED his mind to a date of 2340 BC and accepted Papke's conclusions later (1984)."

                                                http://lexiline. blogspot. com/2008/ 03/age-of- mulapin-accordin g-to-andis. html

                                                So basically Kaulins and Warner believe the Mul Apin tablets were written in 2340bc +/-20 years (albeit some things were added afterwards.. .). I believe the planisphere was written in 2361bc, based on the location of certain planets in certain constellations while the path of the sun was interecting a certain constellation at a certain angle. My 2361bc date appears as #5 on Bond and Hempsells list of possible dates. This time frame also corresponds fairly nicely to Dodwell's estimate of the flood as 2345bc using his earth-tilt data.

                                                Another correlation has to do with time. Both the planisphere and the "mul apin" tablets refer to the time of the rising of the sun in terms of the Sumerian time units called US. They divided up each day into 12 Beru (we use 24 hours), so 1 Beru is about 2 hours. Then they devide each Beru into 30 US (we divide each hour into 60 minutes). So 1 Assyrian day would be: 12 Beru/day * 30 US/Beru = 360 US/day.

                                                This means, to me, that the Assyrians had a means to measure accurately down to 1US. How did they do it?

                                                Well, I'm not sure that it really is as important as verifying that they they could. In the mul apin, Tablet Nr.86378, we see that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily'. See "49." and "50." at the following website:
                                                http://www.lexiline .com/lexiline/ lexi178.htm

                                                Obviously '4 minutes' is an interpretation of cuneiform. Let's see how many minutes are in 1US.

                                                We have 24hours/day * 60minutes/hour = 1440 minutes/day

                                                How many minutes in a US?

                                                1440 minutes/day / 360US/day = 4 minutes/US

                                                In other words, 1 US = 4 minutes

                                                So when the interpretaion of the Mul Apin says that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily', the cuneiform obviously stated this as 1 US.

                                                Now, we don't know for sure what method the Assyrians used to make this time measurement, but there is alot of information about Water Clocks out there on the net. How accurate was this 1US measurement?

                                                One website says this:

                                                "While primitive Clepsydras were often much more accurate than watching the sun, they were still not accurate to today's standards, the best being accurate to within 15 minutes per day: impressive for 5000 years ago, but not acceptable today."
                                                ---http://everything2. com/user/ Lifix/writeups/ Clepsydra

                                                Well,
                                                15minutes of accuracy in 1 day
                                                360US in 1 day

                                                So, 15 minutes of accuracy/day * 1day/360us =
                                                1 minute of accuracy per 24 US.
                                                i.e. 60 seconds of accuracy per 24US
                                                i.e. 2.5 seconds per 1us.

                                                The Assyrians could measure 1US (=4minutes) within 2.5 seconds using a water clock. Let's put this in perspective. 4 minutes is 240seconds.

                                                2.5/240 * 100 * 100% = 1.04%

                                                In other words, the Assyrians could measure time to 1% accuracy with a water clock.

                                                I've included, below my signature, the timing information on the planisphere which tells, in US units the time from sunset the meteors arrived, and the time from the meteor arrival to sunrise. It shows that the night-time lasted 142.3us * 4minutes/us = 569.2minutes.

                                                So, using the 1% accuracy, they could be off 5.7 minutes

                                                Not a big deal.

                                                Toby

                                                --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, "Toby" <zoe_lithoi@ ...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Greetings Ian,
                                                >
                                                > You wrote:
                                                > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                >
                                                > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                                >
                                                > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                                >
                                                > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                                >
                                                > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                                >
                                                > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                                >
                                                > The line beneath it is
                                                >
                                                > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                                >
                                                > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                                >
                                                > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                                >
                                                > Which is interpreted as:
                                                > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                                >
                                                > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                                > and the whole thing is:
                                                >
                                                > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                                > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                                >
                                                > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                                >
                                                > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                                >
                                                > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                                >
                                                > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                                >
                                                > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                                >
                                                > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                                >
                                                > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                                >
                                                > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                                >
                                                > Toby

                                              • Ian Onvlee
                                                Hi Toby, You say: I m sorry to say, but Andis Kaulins is
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Apr 8 8:18 PM
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                                                  Hi Toby,
                                                   
                                                  You say:
                                                  <<Andis Kaulins, a well-published author and expert on the Mul Apin Cuniform clay tablets states:>>
                                                   
                                                  I'm sorry to say, but Andis Kaulins is not an expert at all but to say it kindly: an active amateur writer like Velikovsky, Erich von Dänikken and the likes. I certainly would not use him as a reference.
                                                   
                                                  <<So, using the 1% accuracy, they could be off 5.7 minutes>>
                                                   
                                                  It's good that you remind us of the water clocks. It's true at least from the 2nd millennium BC onwards. But 15 minutes error per day simply means that they could be off by 15 minutes per day. Your math does not change this into 5.7 minutes. It rather depends on when the clock has been adjusted and when it has been read.
                                                   
                                                  So if the time on the water clock read 24 minutes (6 US), the time according to our standards could have really been somewhere between around 40-10 minutes. Fair enough. 
                                                   
                                                  But let me remind you of something else:

                                                  It so happens that 24 minutes before sunrise on 4 April 1414 BC also nicely matches the planisphere: all planets are lined up again, with this time Saturn in Gemini, Jupiter in Cancer, Mars in Leo. The sun was at the Vernal Equinox, which thus would be an auspicious day. This situation will remain about identical for a few months or more. In Egypt the date 4 April 1414 BC is IV Peret 26 in the Egyptian civil calendar, and it's not an unimportant date if you realize the following:
                                                  Charles Van Siclen III has shown that each of the three Jubilees of Amenhotep III took place over an identical range of dates, to judge from the relatively voluminous documentation from each of these celebrations from IV Peret 26 of one regnal year to III Shemu 2 in the succeeding year, or sixty-seven days for each Jubilee (C. Van Siclen III, ’The Accession Date of Amenhotep III and the Jubilee’, JNES 32, 1973, pp. 290-300). Within this span of time thus fell the anniversary of the king’s accession, probably on II Shemu 1 (ibid., pp. 294-296. J. von Beckerath, ’Chronologie des pharaonischen Ägypten, MÄS 46, Mainz, Philipp von Zabern, 1997, p. 201, choses the option of early III Shemu in ’Anfang XI’, just a month later, which does not materially affect the arguments here).
                                                   
                                                  As you know, the kings of Mesopotamia communicated extensively with Amenhotep III, and one of those kings even complained to Amenhotep III not to have been invited at the celebration of a most important festival, which seems to be Amenhotep III's first Jubilee. So perhaps the planisphere was just a horoscope meant to forecast the benefits and woes of Amenhotep III's accession around 1414 BC. Who knows. I'm just exploring the possibilities.
                                                   
                                                  So how about the arrival of a delegation, instead of meteors?
                                                   
                                                  Regards,
                                                  Ian Onvlee
                                                   
                                                   


                                                  From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                  To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 2:15:00 AM
                                                  Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 3: Assyrian Planisphere: It's age and time measurements

                                                   

                                                  Greetings,

                                                  There seems to be some nice correlations between this K8538 Assyrian Planisphere and the Mul Apin series of tablets in regards to some dating and timing. First the dating:

                                                  Andis Kaulins, a well-published author and expert on the Mul Apin Cuniform clay tablets states:

                                                  "Hunger and Pingree themselves note that it was van der Waarden who first proposed the theory that the MUL.APIN applied to a time period circa 1000 BC (which Hunger and Pingree accept, contrary to Papke), but then, based on Papke's observations and some new one's of his own, van der Waarden CHANGED his mind to a date of 2340 BC and accepted Papke's conclusions later (1984)."

                                                  http://lexiline. blogspot. com/2008/ 03/age-of- mulapin-accordin g-to-andis. html

                                                  So basically Kaulins and Warner believe the Mul Apin tablets were written in 2340bc +/-20 years (albeit some things were added afterwards.. .). I believe the planisphere was written in 2361bc, based on the location of certain planets in certain constellations while the path of the sun was interecting a certain constellation at a certain angle. My 2361bc date appears as #5 on Bond and Hempsells list of possible dates. This time frame also corresponds fairly nicely to Dodwell's estimate of the flood as 2345bc using his earth-tilt data.

                                                  Another correlation has to do with time. Both the planisphere and the "mul apin" tablets refer to the time of the rising of the sun in terms of the Sumerian time units called US. They divided up each day into 12 Beru (we use 24 hours), so 1 Beru is about 2 hours. Then they devide each Beru into 30 US (we divide each hour into 60 minutes). So 1 Assyrian day would be: 12 Beru/day * 30 US/Beru = 360 US/day.

                                                  This means, to me, that the Assyrians had a means to measure accurately down to 1US. How did they do it?

                                                  Well, I'm not sure that it really is as important as verifying that they they could. In the mul apin, Tablet Nr.86378, we see that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily'. See "49." and "50." at the following website:
                                                  http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi178.htm

                                                  Obviously '4 minutes' is an interpretation of cuneiform. Let's see how many minutes are in 1US.

                                                  We have 24hours/day * 60minutes/hour = 1440 minutes/day

                                                  How many minutes in a US?

                                                  1440 minutes/day / 360US/day = 4 minutes/US

                                                  In other words, 1 US = 4 minutes

                                                  So when the interpretaion of the Mul Apin says that the stars rise 'four minutes earlier daily', the cuneiform obviously stated this as 1 US.

                                                  Now, we don't know for sure what method the Assyrians used to make this time measurement, but there is alot of information about Water Clocks out there on the net. How accurate was this 1US measurement?

                                                  One website says this:

                                                  "While primitive Clepsydras were often much more accurate than watching the sun, they were still not accurate to today's standards, the best being accurate to within 15 minutes per day: impressive for 5000 years ago, but not acceptable today."
                                                  ---http://everything2. com/user/ Lifix/writeups/ Clepsydra

                                                  Well,
                                                  15minutes of accuracy in 1 day
                                                  360US in 1 day

                                                  So, 15 minutes of accuracy/day * 1day/360us =
                                                  1 minute of accuracy per 24 US.
                                                  i.e. 60 seconds of accuracy per 24US
                                                  i.e. 2.5 seconds per 1us.

                                                  The Assyrians could measure 1US (=4minutes) within 2.5 seconds using a water clock. Let's put this in perspective. 4 minutes is 240seconds.

                                                  2.5/240 * 100 * 100% = 1.04%

                                                  In other words, the Assyrians could measure time to 1% accuracy with a water clock.

                                                  I've included, below my signature, the timing information on the planisphere which tells, in US units the time from sunset the meteors arrived, and the time from the meteor arrival to sunrise. It shows that the night-time lasted 142.3us * 4minutes/us = 569.2minutes.

                                                  So, using the 1% accuracy, they could be off 5.7 minutes

                                                  Not a big deal.

                                                  Toby

                                                  --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, "Toby" <zoe_lithoi@ ...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings Ian,
                                                  >
                                                  > You wrote:
                                                  > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                  >
                                                  > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                                  >
                                                  > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                                  >
                                                  > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                                  >
                                                  > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                                  >
                                                  > The line beneath it is
                                                  >
                                                  > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                                  >
                                                  > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                                  >
                                                  > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                                  >
                                                  > Which is interpreted as:
                                                  > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                                  >
                                                  > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                                  > and the whole thing is:
                                                  >
                                                  > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                                  > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                                  >
                                                  > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                                  >
                                                  > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                                  >
                                                  > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                                  >
                                                  > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                                  >
                                                  > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                                  >
                                                  > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                                  >
                                                  > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                                  >
                                                  > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Toby


                                                • Toby
                                                  Greetings Ian I wrote: You replied:
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Apr 9 10:12 AM
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                                                    Greetings Ian

                                                    I wrote:
                                                    << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>

                                                    You replied:
                                                    "What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini"

                                                    My apologies. You're right.

                                                    PErhaps it'll help if we make some kind of a table with both your view and my view in it. The picture of the plansiphere made in 1912 by King, numbers the 8 sectors from 0 to 7 sequentially, with Sector 4 as Gemini. So, here is a table, with my view and the sectors of your view that I am aware of... please fill in the blanks..

                                                    Toby's view Ian's view
                                                    ------------------------------
                                                    0 Meteor Path
                                                    Overview of whole
                                                    Sky
                                                    1 Pisces&Ophiuchus Pegasus
                                                    2 Maybe Aries
                                                    3 Taurus
                                                    4 Gemini Gemini
                                                    5 Cancer Taurus
                                                    6 Boots & Hercules
                                                    & Thuban
                                                    7. Asteroid Plume

                                                    Can you fill in the blanks?

                                                    Toby


                                                    --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Toby,
                                                    >
                                                    > Now you are not making sense to me.
                                                    >
                                                    > Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere.
                                                    >
                                                    > Secondly, you say:
                                                    >
                                                    > << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>
                                                    >
                                                    > What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini, not three sectors apart. The sectors of Taurus, Gemini and Cancer should form one consecutive row of sectors. If they were three sectors apart your Cancer sector cannot be the Cancer sector, as it couldn't be the Taurus sector either in that case. So I agree that Taurus, Orion and Gemini are next to each other in the Zodiac in that order and that the three sectors must be next to each other, and that's how they are in my interpretation. I only don't agree with your direction of that order on the planisphere.
                                                    >
                                                    > You say:
                                                    >
                                                    > <<I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.>>
                                                    >
                                                    > Who says so? And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunrise. They were in fact just about to rise, which can be predicted without being seen yet. However, what makes you think that these 24 minutes were exactly like our 24 minutes on the clock? Who knows if they were in fact more like our half hour? I don't expect any ancient to know the time by the minute (our minute) precise, let alone to record it. It's a technology of our age. 
                                                    >
                                                    > You say:
                                                    >
                                                    > <<Doesn't sound like you KNOW.>>
                                                    >
                                                    > Indeed, I don't know. Nobody does.
                                                    >
                                                    > << But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:
                                                    >
                                                    > Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...
                                                    >
                                                    > Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                                    > >>
                                                    >
                                                    > Your point here is futile. It says nothing of the existence of any technology, apart from the ability to work metals, which is not in discussion. It's about minute-precise time-keeping, which does not make sense in those ancient days. The rising of a certain star, sunset and sunrise - those were the time-keepers. Who needed an accurate clock-device to keep time by the minute (our minute) precise in those days? Nobody, really! It's fiction. Nor did anyone need an airplane.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards,
                                                    > Ian Onvlee
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >    
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ________________________________
                                                    > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                    > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 7:43:54 PM
                                                    > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                    >
                                                    >  
                                                    > Hi Ian,
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    > > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured.
                                                    >
                                                    > I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.
                                                    >
                                                    > The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As further evidence, though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial scribing of the word Taurus in it.
                                                    >
                                                    > Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi174.htm
                                                    > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                    > Column II
                                                    > 1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
                                                    > (wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
                                                    > AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.
                                                    >
                                                    > 2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN. NA),
                                                    > d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
                                                    > AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,
                                                    >
                                                    > 3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
                                                    > the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK: This is Gemini, the twins,
                                                    > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                    >
                                                    > Please note the constellations are given in this order:
                                                    >
                                                    > Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself something like this:
                                                    >
                                                    > Gemini Sector
                                                    > Gemini Stick Figure
                                                    > Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
                                                    > ------------ --------- (Border)
                                                    > Taurus Sector
                                                    > Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                                                    > (Partial spelling of Taurus)
                                                    >
                                                    > Make sense so far?
                                                    >
                                                    > Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the cuneiform:
                                                    > SIPA.ZI.AN.NA
                                                    >
                                                    > This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the planisphere.
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    > "It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector"
                                                    >
                                                    > And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3 constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    > "Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.
                                                    > > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: "
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    > " Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."
                                                    >
                                                    > As far as I know .....
                                                    > As far as I know .....
                                                    > As far as I know .....
                                                    >
                                                    > Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:
                                                    >
                                                    > Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...
                                                    >
                                                    > Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                                    >
                                                    > Toby
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi Toby,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Regards,
                                                    > > Ian Onvlee
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                    > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                                    > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    > > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                                    > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                    > >
                                                    > >  
                                                    > > Greetings Ian,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > You wrote:
                                                    > > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The line beneath it is
                                                    > >
                                                    > > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Which is interpreted as:
                                                    > > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                                    > >
                                                    > > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                                    > > and the whole thing is:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                                    > > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                                    > >
                                                    > > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                                    > >
                                                    > > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Toby
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dear Toby,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > You say:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > <<
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                                    > > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                                    > > > 2. the day of the month,
                                                    > > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                                    > > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                                    > > > >>
                                                    > > > Â
                                                    > > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                    > > > Â
                                                    > > > Regards,
                                                    > > > Ian Onvlee
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                    > > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                                    > > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    > > > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                                    > > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Â
                                                    > > > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Greetings... Â
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Â
                                                    > > > The Date Design Â
                                                    > > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                                    > > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                                    > > > 2. the day of the month,
                                                    > > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                                    > > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                                    > > > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                                    > > > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                                    > > > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                                    > > > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                                    > > > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                                    > > > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                                    > > > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                                    > > > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                                    > > > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                                    > > > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                                    > > > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                                    > > > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                                    > > > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick
                                                    > > figure
                                                    > > > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                                    > > > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                                    > > > Â Toby
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • Ian Onvlee
                                                    I hope this table comes through. Sector Toby Ian features 0 Meteor path, Sky overview Capricorn, Sagittarius Crossed arrows 1 Pisces & Ophiuchus, Pegasus
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Apr 9 12:34 PM
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                                                      I hope this table comes through.
                                                       

                                                      Sector

                                                      Toby

                                                      Ian

                                                      features

                                                      0

                                                      Meteor path, Sky overview

                                                      Capricorn, Sagittarius

                                                      Crossed arrows

                                                      1

                                                      Pisces & Ophiuchus, Pegasus

                                                      Scorpion (and trail of planets?)

                                                      Planetary path

                                                      2

                                                      Maybe Aries

                                                      Libra, Virgo

                                                       

                                                      3

                                                      Taurus

                                                      Leo, Cancer

                                                      ellipse

                                                      4

                                                      Gemini

                                                      Gemini

                                                      Gemini figure

                                                      5

                                                      Cancer

                                                      Taurus

                                                      Mountains?

                                                      6

                                                      Bootes, Hercules, Thuban

                                                      Aries, Pisces, Pegasus (Paradise?)

                                                      Ashur, Uz

                                                      7

                                                      Asteroid Plume

                                                      Aquarius

                                                       

                                                       
                                                      Ian Onvlee



                                                      From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                      To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 7:12:58 PM
                                                      Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction

                                                       

                                                      Greetings Ian

                                                      I wrote:
                                                      << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>

                                                      You replied:
                                                      "What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini"

                                                      My apologies. You're right.

                                                      PErhaps it'll help if we make some kind of a table with both your view and my view in it. The picture of the plansiphere made in 1912 by King, numbers the 8 sectors from 0 to 7 sequentially, with Sector 4 as Gemini. So, here is a table, with my view and the sectors of your view that I am aware of... please fill in the blanks..

                                                      Toby's view Ian's view
                                                      ------------ --------- ---------
                                                      0 Meteor Path
                                                      Overview of whole
                                                      Sky
                                                      1 Pisces&Ophiuchus Pegasus
                                                      2 Maybe Aries
                                                      3 Taurus
                                                      4 Gemini Gemini
                                                      5 Cancer Taurus
                                                      6 Boots & Hercules
                                                      & Thuban
                                                      7. Asteroid Plume

                                                      Can you fill in the blanks?

                                                      Toby

                                                      --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@. ..> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Toby,
                                                      >
                                                      > Now you are not making sense to me.
                                                      >
                                                      > Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere.
                                                      >
                                                      > Secondly, you say:
                                                      >
                                                      > << (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector.>>
                                                      >
                                                      > What are you talking about? Your Cancer sector (my Taurus sector) is the very next sector after (before) Gemini, not three sectors apart. The sectors of Taurus, Gemini and Cancer should form one consecutive row of sectors. If they were three sectors apart your Cancer sector cannot be the Cancer sector, as it couldn't be the Taurus sector either in that case. So I agree that Taurus, Orion and Gemini are next to each other in the Zodiac in that order and that the three sectors must be next to each other, and that's how they are in my interpretation.  I only don't agree with your direction of that order on the planisphere.
                                                      >
                                                      > You say:
                                                      >
                                                      > <<I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.>>
                                                      >
                                                      > Who says so? And I did not say the Pleiads were already rising 24 minutes after sunrise. They were in fact just about to rise, which can be predicted without being seen yet. However, what makes you think that these 24 minutes were exactly like our 24 minutes on the clock? Who knows if they were in fact more like our half hour? I don't expect any ancient to know the time by the minute (our minute) precise, let alone to record it. It's a technology of our age. 
                                                      >
                                                      > You say:
                                                      >
                                                      > <<Doesn't sound like you KNOW.>>
                                                      >
                                                      > Indeed, I don't know. Nobody does.
                                                      >
                                                      > << But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:
                                                      >
                                                      > Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...
                                                      >
                                                      > Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                                      > >>
                                                      >
                                                      > Your point here is futile. It says nothing of the existence of any technology, apart from the ability to work metals, which is not in discussion. It's about minute-precise  time-keeping, which does not make sense in those ancient days. The rising of a certain star, sunset and sunrise - those were the time-keepers. Who needed an accurate clock- device to keep time by the minute (our minute) precise in those days? Nobody, really! It's fiction. Nor did anyone need an airplane.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards,
                                                      > Ian Onvlee
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >    
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                      > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                                      > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 7:43:54 PM
                                                      > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      > Hi Ian,
                                                      >
                                                      > You wrote:
                                                      > > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured.
                                                      >
                                                      > I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.
                                                      >
                                                      > The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As further evidence, though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial scribing of the word Taurus in it.
                                                      >
                                                      > Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:
                                                      >
                                                      > http://www.lexiline .com/lexiline/ lexi174.htm
                                                      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                      > Column II
                                                      > 1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
                                                      > (wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
                                                      > AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.
                                                      >
                                                      > 2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN. NA),
                                                      > d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
                                                      > AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,
                                                      >
                                                      > 3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
                                                      > the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK: This is Gemini, the twins,
                                                      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                      >
                                                      > Please note the constellations are given in this order:
                                                      >
                                                      > Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself something like this:
                                                      >
                                                      > Gemini Sector
                                                      > Gemini Stick Figure
                                                      > Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
                                                      > ------------ --------- (Border)
                                                      > Taurus Sector
                                                      > Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                                                      > (Partial spelling of Taurus)
                                                      >
                                                      > Make sense so far?
                                                      >
                                                      > Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the cuneiform:
                                                      > SIPA.ZI.AN.NA
                                                      >
                                                      > This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the planisphere.
                                                      >
                                                      > You wrote:
                                                      > "It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector"
                                                      >
                                                      > And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3 constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.
                                                      >
                                                      > You wrote:
                                                      > "Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.
                                                      > > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: "
                                                      >
                                                      > I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24 minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.
                                                      >
                                                      > You wrote:
                                                      > " Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."
                                                      >
                                                      > As far as I know .....
                                                      > As far as I know .....
                                                      > As far as I know .....
                                                      >
                                                      > Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people. The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood person named Tubalcain:
                                                      >
                                                      > Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...
                                                      >
                                                      > Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to reestablish such technology.
                                                      >
                                                      > Toby
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hi Toby,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising, and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the Leo sector.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Regards,
                                                      > > Ian Onvlee
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                      > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                                      > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      > > Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
                                                      > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                      > >
                                                      > >  
                                                      > > Greetings Ian,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > You wrote:
                                                      > > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > In the Cancer sector, see:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538. html
                                                      > >
                                                      > > There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise (this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > B318 B318 "the rising sun".
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The line beneath it is
                                                      > >
                                                      > > B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'.... something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about 24 minutes.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Which is interpreted as:
                                                      > > 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
                                                      > >
                                                      > > where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
                                                      > > and the whole thing is:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
                                                      > > = 20 days and 142.3US
                                                      > >
                                                      > > where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
                                                      > >
                                                      > > so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
                                                      > >
                                                      > > So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
                                                      > >
                                                      > > So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be 9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Toby
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Dear Toby,
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > You say:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > <<
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                                      > > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                                      > > > 2. the day of the month,
                                                      > > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                                      > > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                                      > > > >>
                                                      > > > Â
                                                      > > > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and how do those words read?
                                                      > > > Â
                                                      > > > Regards,
                                                      > > > Ian Onvlee
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                      > > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
                                                      > > > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      > > > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
                                                      > > > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Â
                                                      > > > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Greetings... Â
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo website in Rich Text format.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Â
                                                      > > > The Date Design Â
                                                      > > > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
                                                      > > > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
                                                      > > > 2. the day of the month,
                                                      > > > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
                                                      > > > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
                                                      > > > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
                                                      > > > The Meteor Path Design Â
                                                      > > > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?
                                                      > > > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.
                                                      > > > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.
                                                      > > > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).
                                                      > > > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.
                                                      > > > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.  There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in. The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
                                                      > > > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
                                                      > > > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
                                                      > > > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
                                                      > > > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
                                                      > > > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick
                                                      > > figure
                                                      > > > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
                                                      > > > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector.Â
                                                      > > > Â Toby
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >


                                                    • Toby
                                                      Greetings Ian, You wrote: Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Apr 9 5:31 PM
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                                                        Greetings Ian,

                                                        You wrote:
                                                        "Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere."

                                                        Bond and Hempsell believe Orion is referred to in both the Gemini and Taurus sector. Further, they refer to Hunger,H & Pingree,D. Now, I know you didn't like Kaulis. How about Bond and Hempsell? How about Hunger and Pingree? Maybe I should ask what source do you accept as authoritive on this subject?

                                                        All I can do is quote Bond and Hempsell on the 2 appearances of Orion and the 1 possible appearance of Taurus from their book: "A Sumerian Observation of the Kofels Impact Event":

                                                        1. Page 31 in their chapter 5 on the Gemini Sector

                                                        " Beneath this there is another sequence of signs that reads

                                                        MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AAN (B13) NA (B70) GUB (b206) ZU (B6)

                                                        'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the Milky Way stands in knowledge', indicating the province over which Orion dominates. As with Geimini the identification of MUL SIPA ZI AQN-NA with Orion is confirmed by teh MUL APIN text [6]

                                                        [6] Hunger, H&Pingree,D. "Mul Apin An Astronomical Compendium in Cuneiform" Verlag Fredinand Berger & Sohne Gesellschaft M.B.H. (1989)"

                                                        2. Page 37 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector

                                                        "The lower boundary of the sector locates Orion with the sequence:

                                                        MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AN (B13) NA (B70)

                                                        'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the milky way' and as noted in the Gemini sector above, this is known to be Orion from the other texts such as the MUL APIN."

                                                        3. Page 39 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector

                                                        "Along the periphery of this sector can be identified

                                                        MUL B(129) %%%

                                                        'constellation ???". The Very damaged symbol cannot be read except for the leading cuneiform strokes. These are no inconsistent with it being GU4 (B297), part of the constellation of Taurus, which would be expected. Other constellations mentioned in the MUL APIN text in this region equating to Auriga, Perseus, adn 'the crook staff' are not good contenders fro what can be read of this sign."

                                                        Toby
                                                      • Ian Onvlee
                                                        Hi Toby, I have no opinion about Bond and Hempsell, nor about Hunger and Pingree. In fact, I need to order their books to be able to say something. All the
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Apr 10 12:40 AM
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                                                          Hi Toby,
                                                           
                                                          I have no opinion about Bond and Hempsell, nor about Hunger and Pingree. In fact, I need to order their books to be able to say something.
                                                           
                                                          All the critiques is about their sensational association of the tablet with the Köffel landslide and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm not interested in that, those theories re probably all wrong.
                                                           
                                                          I'm only interested in the reading and translation of the texts on the planisphere itself. If you (or they) are right about Orion being mentioned in both your Taurus and Gemini sector, as you have explained, I will withdraw my proposal and go along with you on that part.
                                                           
                                                          However, it does leave me wonder why in the past 150 years the few Assyriologists who attempted to translate the text did not succeed and why non-Assyriologists like Bond and Hempsell did. How is that possible???
                                                           
                                                          Regards,
                                                          Ian Onvlee
                                                           

                                                           


                                                          From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                          To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 2:31:20 AM
                                                          Subject: [ancient_chronology] Orion in the K8538: Assyrian Planisphere

                                                           

                                                          Greetings Ian,

                                                          You wrote:
                                                          "Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere. "

                                                          Bond and Hempsell believe Orion is referred to in both the Gemini and Taurus sector. Further, they refer to Hunger,H & Pingree,D. Now, I know you didn't like Kaulis. How about Bond and Hempsell? How about Hunger and Pingree? Maybe I should ask what source do you accept as authoritive on this subject?

                                                          All I can do is quote Bond and Hempsell on the 2 appearances of Orion and the 1 possible appearance of Taurus from their book: "A Sumerian Observation of the Kofels Impact Event":

                                                          1. Page 31 in their chapter 5 on the Gemini Sector

                                                          " Beneath this there is another sequence of signs that reads

                                                          MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AAN (B13) NA (B70) GUB (b206) ZU (B6)

                                                          'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the Milky Way stands in knowledge', indicating the province over which Orion dominates. As with Geimini the identification of MUL SIPA ZI AQN-NA with Orion is confirmed by teh MUL APIN text [6]

                                                          [6] Hunger, H&Pingree,D. "Mul Apin An Astronomical Compendium in Cuneiform" Verlag Fredinand Berger & Sohne Gesellschaft M.B.H. (1989)"

                                                          2. Page 37 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector

                                                          "The lower boundary of the sector locates Orion with the sequence:

                                                          MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AN (B13) NA (B70)

                                                          'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the milky way' and as noted in the Gemini sector above, this is known to be Orion from the other texts such as the MUL APIN."

                                                          3. Page 39 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector

                                                          "Along the periphery of this sector can be identified

                                                          MUL B(129) %%%

                                                          'constellation ???". The Very damaged symbol cannot be read except for the leading cuneiform strokes. These are no inconsistent with it being GU4 (B297), part of the constellation of Taurus, which would be expected. Other constellations mentioned in the MUL APIN text in this region equating to Auriga, Perseus, adn 'the crook staff' are not good contenders fro what can be read of this sign."

                                                          Toby


                                                        • Toby
                                                          Greetings Ian, I am glad you are getting the books. One thing you should know about the Sodom and Gomorrah hype in all the internet news articles, is that Bond
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Apr 10 10:27 AM
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                                                            Greetings Ian,

                                                            I am glad you are getting the books.

                                                            One thing you should know about the Sodom and Gomorrah hype in all the internet news articles, is that Bond and Hempsell do not once mention this in their book. I read where they disagreed on this matter.

                                                            You wrote:
                                                            "> However, it does leave me wonder why in the past 150 years the few Assyriologists who attempted to translate the text did not succeed and why non-Assyriologists like Bond and Hempsell did. How is that possible???"

                                                            I can offer a partial explanation. Below are 2 samples of cuneiform tablets which have only recently (within the last 5 years) been translated. Why? Because there are thousands of cuneiform tablets and very few that can translate.

                                                            "One such archaeological find recently came to light. In 1920, the British Museum acquired a small stone tablet about two inches wide and one inch high. This stone tablet went into a large cache of tablets with ancient cuneiform writing on them. Since few people have the skill and knowledge to translate cuneiform, the tablet sat untranslated in the British Museum for about eight decades. Recently, however, Dr. Michael Jursa of the University of Vienna, one of the few people who can read cuneiform, translated the small stone tablet (Alberge, 2007)."

                                                            "Brown Seniors 'Crack' Cuneiform Tablets

                                                            Visitors to the John Hay Library sometimes ask, "How old is your oldest book?" Answer: 4,000+ years old. The Library holds 27 cuneiform tablets and cones from ancient Mesopotamia, none of which had been translated until two seniors in Visiting Professor Alice Slotsky's class, Ancient Scientific Writings: Akkadian, undertook an elective project to decipher two of the tablets. Their transliterations and translations are published below"
                                                            --http://www.lauralee.com/news/brownucuneiform.htm

                                                            Toby

                                                            --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Toby,
                                                            >
                                                            > I have no opinion about Bond and Hempsell, nor about Hunger and Pingree. In fact, I need to order their books to be able to say something.
                                                            >
                                                            > All the critiques is about their sensational association of the tablet with the Köffel landslide and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm not interested in that, those theories re probably all wrong.
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm only interested in the reading and translation of the texts on the planisphere itself. If you (or they) are right about Orion being mentioned in both your Taurus and Gemini sector, as you have explained, I will withdraw my proposal and go along with you on that part.
                                                            >
                                                            > However, it does leave me wonder why in the past 150 years the few Assyriologists who attempted to translate the text did not succeed and why non-Assyriologists like Bond and Hempsell did. How is that possible???
                                                            >
                                                            > Regards,
                                                            > Ian Onvlee
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >  
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ________________________________
                                                            > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
                                                            > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 2:31:20 AM
                                                            > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Orion in the K8538: Assyrian Planisphere
                                                            >
                                                            >  
                                                            > Greetings Ian,
                                                            >
                                                            > You wrote:
                                                            > "Firstly, as far as I know there is no mention of Sipa.zi.anna in either your sector of Gemini or Taurus. As I said there is only a mention of two planets: Kakkab Siz.zi.an.na in your sector of Taurus and Kakkab Sib.zi.an.na which is usually identified as Jupiter. If it was so easy to equate these names with the constellation Sipa.zi.an.na, tis identification would have been done a century ago already and it would have been mainstream by now. Apparently it is not that simple. There is also no mention of Gu4.an.na (Taurus) on the planisphere. "
                                                            >
                                                            > Bond and Hempsell believe Orion is referred to in both the Gemini and Taurus sector. Further, they refer to Hunger,H & Pingree,D. Now, I know you didn't like Kaulis. How about Bond and Hempsell? How about Hunger and Pingree? Maybe I should ask what source do you accept as authoritive on this subject?
                                                            >
                                                            > All I can do is quote Bond and Hempsell on the 2 appearances of Orion and the 1 possible appearance of Taurus from their book: "A Sumerian Observation of the Kofels Impact Event":
                                                            >
                                                            > 1. Page 31 in their chapter 5 on the Gemini Sector
                                                            >
                                                            > " Beneath this there is another sequence of signs that reads
                                                            >
                                                            > MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AAN (B13) NA (B70) GUB (b206) ZU (B6)
                                                            >
                                                            > 'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the Milky Way stands in knowledge', indicating the province over which Orion dominates. As with Geimini the identification of MUL SIPA ZI AQN-NA with Orion is confirmed by teh MUL APIN text [6]
                                                            >
                                                            > [6] Hunger, H&Pingree,D. "Mul Apin An Astronomical Compendium in Cuneiform" Verlag Fredinand Berger & Sohne Gesellschaft M.B.H. (1989)"
                                                            >
                                                            > 2. Page 37 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector
                                                            >
                                                            > "The lower boundary of the sector locates Orion with the sequence:
                                                            >
                                                            > MUL (B129A) SIPA (B315X) ZI (B84) AN (B13) NA (B70)
                                                            >
                                                            > 'the constellation of the faithful shepherd of the milky way' and as noted in the Gemini sector above, this is known to be Orion from the other texts such as the MUL APIN."
                                                            >
                                                            > 3. Page 39 in their chapter 6 on the Taurus Sector
                                                            >
                                                            > "Along the periphery of this sector can be identified
                                                            >
                                                            > MUL B(129) %%%
                                                            >
                                                            > 'constellation ???". The Very damaged symbol cannot be read except for the leading cuneiform strokes. These are no inconsistent with it being GU4 (B297), part of the constellation of Taurus, which would be expected. Other constellations mentioned in the MUL APIN text in this region equating to Auriga, Perseus, adn 'the crook staff' are not good contenders fro what can be read of this sign."
                                                            >
                                                            > Toby
                                                            >
                                                          • Toby
                                                            Scorpion, Pegasus, Aquila, or Ophiuchus on the Planisphere and Millenia Greetings Ian, ... Looking back at our postings, we ve identified at least 3 such
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Apr 10 11:55 AM
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                                                              Scorpion, Pegasus, Aquila, or Ophiuchus on the Planisphere and Millenia

                                                              Greetings Ian,

                                                              Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
                                                              > It so happens that 24 minutes before sunrise on 4 April 1414 BC also nicely matches the planisphere: all planets are lined up again, with this time Saturn in Gemini, Jupiter in Cancer, Mars in Leo. The sun was at the Vernal Equinox, which thus would be an auspicious day. This situation will remain about identical for a few months or more. In Egypt the date 4 April 1414 BC .....

                                                              Looking back at our postings, we've identified at least 3 such alignments of planets in 3 different millenia, circa: 9000bc, 4000bc, and now 1400bc. I suspect, there may be more such.

                                                              How does the planisphere distinguish between Millenia?

                                                              Well, Bond and Hempsell use the information in "Sector 1" to narrow it down. Is there anyway for you to make a graphic picture of your view of this sector? Bond & Hempsell, Zitman, and I think others view both the V-shaped object and triangle shaped object, each as a constellation. The V-shaped object has no dots in it, and contains words that indicate it's invisibility to to clouds or smoke. The triangle shaped object, on the otherhand has dots in it, indicating visibility. From the base of the triangle extends a line (this line is either the path of the sun or the celestial equator) forming an angle. So, if one can identify the triangle constellation, then one can play back the millenium on his/her planetary software and see which millenium has the proper angle.

                                                              In the words of Pirate Jack Sparrow: Savvy?

                                                              Zitman does refer to Pegasus relating to this triange in this sector1, while Bond and Hempsell refer to Aquila. I have been referring to Ophiuchus. Now, however, I am reconsidering Pegasus. Pegasus has 4 stars which form the famous Pegasus square. If one uses 3 of these stars, then you have a nice triangle. And it just so happens the angle between it's base and the 'path of the sun' matches that of Sector 1 around the year 2400 +/- a couple hundred years.

                                                              Does your scorpion have a triangle in it? And if so, does the path of the sun go through it? And if so, does the correct angle form?

                                                              Toby
                                                            • Infowolf1@aol.com
                                                              BRAVO! In a message dated 4/10/2010 9:51:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sambacats@yahoo.com writes: All the critiques is about their sensational association of
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Apr 10 4:08 PM
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                                                                BRAVO!
                                                                 
                                                                In a message dated 4/10/2010 9:51:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sambacats@... writes:
                                                                All the critiques is about their sensational association of the tablet with the Köffel landslide and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm not interested in that, those theories re probably all wrong.
                                                                 
                                                                I'm only interested in the reading and translation of the texts on the planisphere itself.
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