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Citation obsession

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  • crux31504@mypacks.net
    I am an APA Nazi in the classroom. When my students write papers for me, I am fussy about their in text and bibliographic referencing. When they make repeated
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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      I am an APA Nazi in the classroom.  When my students write papers for me, I am fussy about their in text and bibliographic referencing.  When they make repeated mistakes, it can cost them from five points to a letter grade.  I do this because I want them to incorporate peer reviewed material into their analyses and need to be able to tell the difference between the scholarly stuff and junk from the Internet or Wikipedia.  Then I came across this article from ACJ's RSS feed http://chronicle.com/article/Citation-Obsession-Get-Over/129575/.  Am I too hard on my kids?  Should I demand less in terms of grammar and citations for senior level papers?

      Anita
    • Jon Ru
      IMO it s a good article w/ a good point, but I also don t think up to 1 letter grade for repeated errors is excessive Anita.  The rules for most cites are
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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        IMO it's a good article w/ a good point, but I also don't think up to 1 letter grade for repeated errors is excessive Anita.  The rules for most cites are simple; if the student can't follow simple rules then deducting a letter grade is reasonable.  This is especially true for seniors who have known about and presumably practiced these rules for at least 3 years.  I'm over 40 and I know I remember having to submit correct bibliographies in high school English and Biology classes.  I also have minimal sympathy for the librarians at JMU.  The answer to "How do I cite X?" is "The APA manual can be found in the reference section."  I would cite the toilet graffiti the same way I'd cite a lecture by noting the date and location.

        My somewhat cynical response to the article as a whole is to extend the argument.  If cite style is not useful outside of an academic context, maybe good writing as a whole is also not useful outside of an academic context.  In the 21st century student goals revolve around employment, not becoming a better writer or speaker or citizen or . . .   How many careers will involve extended writing?  14%?  How many careers will involve following precise rules, rules remarkable similar to APA in their lack of flexibility and apparent irrelevance?  Exactly 86%  TPS reports are corporate reality.

        Also, grammar errors are a completely different issue than citation errors and deserve more severe penalties at the senior level.

        Happy Halloween Eve!
        Jon


        From: "crux31504@..." <crux31504@...>
        To: "americancomm@yahoogroups.com" <americancomm@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 1:20 PM
        Subject: [americancomm] Citation obsession

         

        I am an APA Nazi in the classroom.  When my students write papers for me, I am fussy about their in text and bibliographic referencing.  When they make repeated mistakes, it can cost them from five points to a letter grade.  I do this because I want them to incorporate peer reviewed material into their analyses and need to be able to tell the difference between the scholarly stuff and junk from the Internet or Wikipedia.  Then I came across this article from ACJ's RSS feed http://chronicle.com/article/Citation-Obsession-Get-Over/129575/.  Am I too hard on my kids?  Should I demand less in terms of grammar and citations for senior level papers?

        Anita


      • ColleenC
        Hi Anita, I have been a student at Kaplan for three years, and APA is a must. This focus forces me to pay close attention to detail, and for important and
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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          Hi Anita,

          I have been a student at Kaplan for three years, and APA is a must. This focus forces me to pay close attention to detail, and for important and obvious reasons, I embrace it.

          At 52, I find APA format to be simple enough to learn, especially when used daily. Yes, it is tedious, but I have learned that good writers must differentiate themselves with strict disciplinary habits.

          Kurt Schick (2011) believes students are suffering anxiety from the pressure to use style format correctly, and their work is being negatively affected by it.

          I have only used APA style, and have learned to do it automatically. It is as much a part of my writing discipline as honoring the rules of grammar. I feel thankful for my professors' rigid pressure to conform.
          However, if I were expected to learn, and sporadically use three other documentation styles, the time spent scattering my focus would become a problem and affect the quality of my work. Only in that light, would I agree with Kurt.
        • Thomas Duncanson
          All There is potential fallacy of conversion, i.e.: APA is good writing, becomes in too many sad little brains Good writing is APA. That squeezes out a lot
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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            All

            There is potential fallacy of conversion, i.e.:

            "APA is good writing,"

            becomes in too many sad little brains

            "Good writing is APA."

            That squeezes out a lot of valuable thought.

            In reality, APA is atrocious writing and inhuman thinking.  APA does not, in fact, say "Kurt Schick (2011)" but only "Students are suffering anxiety form the pressure of using style formats correctly (Schick 2011)," and in the references only "Schick, K. (2011),"right?  (By the way, if I'm off jump right in, I deplore this style, don't pretend to know it, and don't ask my students to use it, and only convert my own writing to a badly abused version at the last moment before sending off papers.)  That Schick is likely a male person with a Germanic name is deliberately elided.  People don't have thoughts in this system; there are well established probabilities that stand in for the advancement of an impersonal body of knowledge.

            And it is all derived from our friends' in psychology physics envy.  And the worst of it, APA downgrades all older work!

            Read the wonderful essay on this topic in RHETORIC OF THE HUMAN SCIENCES, U Wisconsin Press, way back-- 1986?

            Best

            Tom

            Tom Duncanson
            Millikin University




            >>> "ColleenC" 10/30/11 2:45 PM >>>
             

            Hi Anita,

            I have been a student at Kaplan for three years, and APA is a must. This focus forces me to pay close attention to detail, and for important and obvious reasons, I embrace it.

            At 52, I find APA f?ormat to be simple enough to learn, especially when used daily. Yes, it is tedious, but I have learned that good writers must differentiate themselves with strict disciplinary habits.

            Kurt Schick (2011) believes students are suffering anxiety from the pressure to use style format correctly, and their work is being negatively affected by it.

            I have only used APA style, and have learned to do it automatically. It is as much a part of my writing discipline as honoring the rules of grammar. I feel thankful for my professors' rigid pressure to conform.
            However, if I were expected to learn, and sporadically use three other documentation styles, the time spent scattering my focus would become a problem and affect the quality of my work. Only in that light, would I agree with Kurt.




            CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message along with any included attachments may contain information that is confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee,) you may not use, copy, or disclose to anyone any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the message and any attachments. Thank you for your cooperation.
          • Pat Edwards
            Colleen, I don t think the primary concern is whether citations, be it APA or other, are learned or used. It appears to be more about the ever evolving level
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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              Colleen, I don't think the primary concern is whether citations, be it APA or other, are learned or used. It appears to be more about the ever evolving level of complexity that goes beyond creating your normal citations, as a need for preventing plagiarism and not grammatical errors. 

              I too have been formatting in APA for many years. Over those years, and now while I complete my thesis, I have often considered burning many pages in my Hacker manual that do not in plain English address  complex or unusual citations.  The prowess of electronic citation generators and university librarians are equally taxed in complex APA citation formatting.  

              Please correct me if I am wrong but, in my opinion, this has little to do with my literary or writing ability as much as it does meeting anti-plagurism standards.   


              epedwards


            • ColleenC
              I m a little confused. Obviously, I am new to this issue. Anita wrote in the original thread, I am an APA Nazi in the classroom...Am I too hard on my kids?
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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                I'm a little confused. Obviously, I am new to this issue.
                Anita wrote in the original thread, "I am an APA Nazi in the classroom...Am I too hard on my kids? Should I demand less in terms of grammar and citations for senior level papers?"

                I thought her concern was not about APA in particular, but with expecting total adherence to the use of a specific guide.

                In general, I am taught that good writing includes information that is cited and referenced. Therefore, I thought the question was: Does citation style matter, and how much?

                I am told that as a direct result of the internet, plagiarism is a bigger issue than it ever was in the 80's. I am assuming this heightened determination to avoid plagiarism has created a new monster, and that is the problem. Am I correct in my thinking?

                Thanks,
                Colleen



                --- In americancomm@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Duncanson" <tduncanson@...> wrote:
                >
                > All
                >
                > There is potential fallacy of conversion, i.e.:
                >
                > "APA is good writing,"
                >
                > becomes in too many sad little brains
                >
                > "Good writing is APA."
                >
                > That squeezes out a lot of valuable thought.
                >
                > In reality, APA is atrocious writing and inhuman thinking. APA does
                > not, in fact, say "Kurt Schick (2011)" but only "Students are suffering
                > anxiety form the pressure of using style formats correctly (Schick
                > 2011)," and in the references only "Schick, K. (2011),"right? (By the
                > way, if I'm off jump right in, I deplore this style, don't pretend to
                > know it, and don't ask my students to use it, and only convert my own
                > writing to a badly abused version at the last moment before sending off
                > papers.) That Schick is likely a male person with a Germanic name is
                > deliberately elided. People don't have thoughts in this system; there
                > are well established probabilities that stand in for the advancement of
                > an impersonal body of knowledge.
                >
                > And it is all derived from our friends' in psychology physics envy. And
                > the worst of it, APA downgrades all older work!
                >
                > Read the wonderful essay on this topic in RHETORIC OF THE HUMAN
                > SCIENCES, U Wisconsin Press, way back-- 1986?
                >
                > Best
                >
                > Tom
                >
                > Tom Duncanson
                > Millikin University
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >>> "ColleenC" 10/30/11 2:45 PM >>>
                > Hi Anita,
                >
                > I have been a student at Kaplan for three years, and APA is a must. This
                > focus forces me to pay close attention to detail, and for important and
                > obvious reasons, I embrace it.
                >
                > At 52, I find APA f?ormat to be simple enough to learn, especially when
                > used daily. Yes, it is tedious, but I have learned that good writers
                > must differentiate themselves with strict disciplinary habits.
                >
                > Kurt Schick (2011) believes students are suffering anxiety from the
                > pressure to use style format correctly, and their work is being
                > negatively affected by it.
                >
                > I have only used APA style, and have learned to do it automatically. It
                > is as much a part of my writing discipline as honoring the rules of
                > grammar. I feel thankful for my professors' rigid pressure to conform.
                > However, if I were expected to learn, and sporadically use three other
                > documentation styles, the time spent scattering my focus would become a
                > problem and affect the quality of my work. Only in that light, would I
                > agree with Kurt.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message along with any included attachments
                > may contain information that is confidential and privileged. Unless you
                > are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee,) you may
                > not use, copy, or disclose to anyone any information contained in this
                > message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
                > sender and immediately delete the message and any attachments. Thank
                > you for your cooperation.
                >
              • Tucker, Sherry L.
                I used to be fussy as well. I teach at a community college and in a school that focuses on MLA. I ve tried to require APA, but it is not recognized at my
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 30, 2011
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                  RE: [americancomm] Citation obsession

                  I used to be fussy as well.  I teach at a community college and in a school that focuses on MLA.  I've tried to require APA, but it is not recognized at my school.  Also, there is no support for APA and I've finally given in to MLA style. 


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: americancomm@yahoogroups.com on behalf of crux31504@...
                  Sent: Sun 10/30/2011 1:20 PM
                  To: americancomm@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [americancomm] Citation obsession

                   



                  I am an APA Nazi in the classroom.  When my students write papers for me, I am fussy about their in text and bibliographic referencing.  When they make repeated mistakes, it can cost them from five points to a letter grade.  I do this because I want them to incorporate peer reviewed material into their analyses and need to be able to tell the difference between the scholarly stuff and junk from the Internet or Wikipedia.  Then I came across this article from ACJ's RSS feed http://chronicle.com/article/Citation-Obsession-Get-Over/129575/.  Am I too hard on my kids?  Should I demand less in terms of grammar and citations for senior level papers?


                  Anita



                • Todd, Candace
                  I think we might be missing an important point when it comes to citation. While it is true that citing correctly takes a certain amount of meticulousness that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 31, 2011
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                    I think we might be missing an important point when it comes to citation.

                     

                    While it is true that citing correctly takes a certain amount of meticulousness that is useful as discipline in writing.  And it is also true that plagiarism is an issue.  To my mind the most important aspect of citing is that doing so allows us to easily and readily find each other’s sources.  Ideally, academic writing is something of an extended conversation that pulls in voices of the past while making arguments and developing new knowledge intended for the present and future.  The more voices we bring in the more credible we are, but also the more that our conversation extends the resources of our understanding to one another.  I look up other peoples citations regularly because I am interested in what those other voices are saying. 

                     

                    In today’s reality with the information explosion that occurs in print, on the internet electronically, in video, photography, and so on, our citing has necessarily become more complicated and burdensome.  Yet it is all the more important that these varieties of resources get mentioned specifically.  All sources are NOT equally credible.  And yet, these sources are so much more easily networked that it is more rewarding than ever to search them out.

                     

                    Candace E. Todd, Ph.D.

                    Assistant Professor of Communication Studies

                    434/5448818

                    When all you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail. Abraham Maslow

                     

                  • tonny utulu
                    Sir, find attached my PhD thesis, l hope it s alright. my supervisor have not had the time to look at deeply (l guess). therefore, l dont mind if you could
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 31, 2011
                    Sir,
                    find attached my PhD thesis, l hope it's alright. my supervisor have not had the time to look at deeply (l guess). therefore, l dont mind if you could kindly help me look at it to know if it worth it in any way. l need help so that l can finish the programme right on time.
                     
                    Regards.
                     
                    Pst. Utulu, Anthony U.
                    Lecturer,
                    Department of Mass Communication,
                    College of Social and Management Sciences, Joseph Ayo Babalola University, Osun State, Nigeria.
                    234 (0) 803 414 7797; tonnyjcj@...
                    "If my people...called by my name ...forsake their wicked ways... I will heal them".

                    From: "Todd, Candace" <todd@...>
                    To: "'americancomm@yahoogroups.com'" <americancomm@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 3:56 PM
                    Subject: [americancomm] Re: Citation obsession

                     
                    I think we might be missing an important point when it comes to citation.
                     
                    While it is true that citing correctly takes a certain amount of meticulousness that is useful as discipline in writing.  And it is also true that plagiarism is an issue.  To my mind the most important aspect of citing is that doing so allows us to easily and readily find each other’s sources.  Ideally, academic writing is something of an extended conversation that pulls in voices of the past while making arguments and developing new knowledge intended for the present and future.  The more voices we bring in the more credible we are, but also the more that our conversation extends the resources of our understanding to one another.  I look up other peoples citations regularly because I am interested in what those other voices are saying. 
                     
                    In today’s reality with the information explosion that occurs in print, on the internet electronically, in video, photography, and so on, our citing has necessarily become more complicated and burdensome.  Yet it is all the more important that these varieties of resources get mentioned specifically.  All sources are NOT equally credible.  And yet, these sources are so much more easily networked that it is more rewarding than ever to search them out.
                     
                    Candace E. Todd, Ph.D.
                    Assistant Professor of Communication Studies
                    434/5448818
                    When all you own is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail. Abraham Maslow
                     


                  • Keith Boepple
                    Anita, In no way are you being too demanding or hard on your students for what you are doing. No, do not demand less. I teach on the Junior High and High
                    Message 10 of 11 , Oct 31, 2011
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                      Anita,
                       
                      In no way are you being too demanding or hard on your students for what you are doing.  No, do not demand less.  I teach on the Junior High and High School levels.  I expect the students to cite their sources. (if they use Wikipedia, they need to use 2 additional sources to back up what Wikipedia states.) We use MLA because that is what is handed down from our leadership to use.  Correct grammar is always required and points are taken off for lack thereof.
                       
                      As a professional speaker, communications consultant, and speech/debate judge, citation of sources and correct grammar is essential.  I teach that you cannot touch the heart and sound of an audience if you do not have a command of the language you are using.  Using correct grammar adds to the speaker's credibility.  It shows they are astute enough to be listened to, to be believed.  Citing sources within the speech (I like APA because it works well for the written and spoken forms) shows a speaker's professionalism by demonstrating their willingness to dig deep into the given topic.  I teach that personal opinions get listeners, but personal opinions backed up by research change the listener's lives.  When I judge contests, I look for citations and correct grammar (so do many of my colleagues).
                       
                      In my view, never demand less than the best from your students in these areas.  I read the article Anita shared, and think the writer is missing some points.  We live in a society that is intellectually lazy in many areas.  We must put a stop to that laziness in my view.
                       
                      Keith Boepple
                      Communications Teacher
                      Ft. Worth, TX
                       
                       
                       
                       
                    • crux31504@mypacks.net
                      I appreciate all of the comments on this topic. I am not such a citation nazi that I would not accept MLA instead of APA. I just want students to give me
                      Message 11 of 11 , Nov 3, 2011
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                        I appreciate all of the comments on this topic.  I am not such a citation nazi that I would not accept MLA instead of APA.  I just want students to give me something more than a list of websites for a bibliography and NOTHING pointing to it within the paper.  Plagiarism is less of a concern for me than the issues expressed below.  I want students prepared to enter the world of scholars.  Scholars use a referencing system that allows other to extend and replicate their work.  Students should as well.  And doing so should not be viewed as an impediment to the writing process.  If you've got great ideas/arguments and excellent sources that back up your ideas/arguments, you should want to make it easy for others to verify your work.





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Keith Boepple
                        Sent: Oct 31, 2011 8:34 PM
                        To: americancomm@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [americancomm] Re: Citation obsession

                         

                        Anita,
                         
                        In no way are you being too demanding or hard on your students for what you are doing.  No, do not demand less.  I teach on the Junior High and High School levels.  I expect the students to cite their sources. (if they use Wikipedia, they need to use 2 additional sources to back up what Wikipedia states.) We use MLA because that is what is handed down from our leadership to use.  Correct grammar is always required and points are taken off for lack thereof.
                         
                        As a professional speaker, communications consultant, and speech/debate judge, citation of sources and correct grammar is essential.  I teach that you cannot touch the heart and sound of an audience if you do not have a command of the language you are using.  Using correct grammar adds to the speaker's credibility.  It shows they are astute enough to be listened to, to be believed.  Citing sources within the speech (I like APA because it works well for the written and spoken forms) shows a speaker's professionalism by demonstrating their willingness to dig deep into the given topic.  I teach that personal opinions get listeners, but personal opinions backed up by research change the listener's lives.  When I judge contests, I look for citations and correct grammar (so do many of my colleagues).
                         
                        In my view, never demand less than the best from your students in these areas.  I read the article Anita shared, and think the writer is missing some points.  We live in a society that is intellectually lazy in many areas.  We must put a stop to that laziness in my view.
                         
                        Keith Boepple
                        Communications Teacher
                        Ft. Worth, TX
                         
                         
                         
                         

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