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RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

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  • Jean Boucharlat
    Dave, As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us. As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not. My plain, simple and only
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 1, 2009
      Dave,



      As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.

      As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.



      My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
      for personal profit and/or business promotion.



      I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
      it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
      self-promoting material.



      Regards,



      Jean Boucharlat
      (Formerly SM 232)



      From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
      Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
      To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104





      Jean,
      Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
      better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
      from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
      pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
      was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
      modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.

      If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
      And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
      directly than publicly.
      Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29

      --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...
      <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> > wrote:

      From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...
      <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> >
      Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
      To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM



      To the moderator and all members of this group

      I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly

      advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.

      This is not the first time he has done it.

      I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it

      very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel

      Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges

      of information between members.

      All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).

      Jean Boucharlat

      (Formerly SM 232)

      From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

      [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

      Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25

      To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

      Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

      Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing

      has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with

      Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in

      the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality

      cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some

      real advantages over the competition.

      www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com

      --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
      40gmail.com>

      > wrote:

      From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >

      Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

      To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

      <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

      Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM

      I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'

      company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done

      in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.

      Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.

      <br>

      Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18

      oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS

      Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10

      Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,

      Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

      1 2,183.00 2,183.00T

      <br>

      Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker

      Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella

      Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and

      Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag

      1 2,438.00 2,438.00T

      <br>

      Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz

      Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten

      Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,

      Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

      1 784.00 784.00T

      <br>

      ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T

      <br>

      Hope this helps

      --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>

      wrote:

      >

      > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark

      of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and

      sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety

      of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.

      >

      > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality

      or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so

      cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what

      it cost just to buy top quality material.

      >

      > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.

      >

      >

      > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:

      >

      > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>

      > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

      > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      > Dear all,

      >

      >

      >

      > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go

      for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They

      guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions

      about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,

      top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)

      >

      > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,

      Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US

      (incl. P&P)!!!!

      >

      >

      >

      > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all

      in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find

      anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat

      without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should

      be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a

      full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to

      10 bft all was perfect OK.

      >

      >

      >

      > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.

      >

      >

      >

      > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • karkauai
      I tend to agree with Jean. Dave, I really appreciate your posts and wouldn t want you to feel that I m upset with you at all, but whenever there s a
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 1, 2009
        I tend to agree with Jean. Dave, I really appreciate your posts and wouldn't want you to feel that I'm upset with you at all, but whenever there's a discussion about sails, your posts have a "commercial" feel. That said, I wish I'd come to this site before I bought my sails. I'm very happy with the ones I got from Banks in Kemah, TX, but I feel I could have gotten sails of equal quality for a better price from Dave, and I wouldn't have had to rely on a loft that didn't have much experience with Amels.
        Kent
        "Kristy" SM 243


        --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dave,
        >
        >
        >
        > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
        >
        > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
        >
        >
        >
        > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
        > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
        >
        >
        >
        > I didn't write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
        > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
        > self-promoting material.
        >
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        >
        >
        > Jean Boucharlat
        > (Formerly SM 232)
        >
        >
        >
        > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
        > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
        > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Jean,
        > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
        > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
        > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
        > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
        > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
        > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
        >
        > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
        > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
        > directly than publicly.
        > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
        >
        > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...
        > <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> > wrote:
        >
        > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...
        > <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> >
        > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
        > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
        >
        >
        >
        > To the moderator and all members of this group
        >
        > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
        >
        > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
        >
        > This is not the first time he has done it.
        >
        > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
        >
        > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
        >
        > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
        >
        > of information between members.
        >
        > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
        >
        > Jean Boucharlat
        >
        > (Formerly SM 232)
        >
        > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
        >
        > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
        >
        > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
        >
        > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
        >
        > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
        >
        > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
        >
        > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
        >
        > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
        >
        > real advantages over the competition.
        >
        > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
        >
        > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
        > 40gmail.com>
        >
        > > wrote:
        >
        > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
        >
        > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
        >
        > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
        >
        > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
        >
        > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
        >
        > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
        >
        > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
        >
        > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
        >
        > <br>
        >
        > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
        >
        > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
        >
        > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
        >
        > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
        >
        > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
        >
        > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
        >
        > <br>
        >
        > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
        >
        > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
        >
        > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
        >
        > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
        >
        > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
        >
        > <br>
        >
        > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
        >
        > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
        >
        > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
        >
        > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
        >
        > 1 784.00 784.00T
        >
        > <br>
        >
        > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
        >
        > <br>
        >
        > Hope this helps
        >
        > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
        >
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
        >
        > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
        >
        > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
        >
        > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
        >
        > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
        >
        > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
        >
        > it cost just to buy top quality material.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
        >
        > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
        >
        > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Dear all,
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
        >
        > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
        >
        > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
        >
        > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
        >
        > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
        >
        > >
        >
        > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
        >
        > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
        >
        > (incl. P&P)!!!!
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
        >
        > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
        >
        > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
        >
        > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
        >
        > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
        >
        > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
        >
        > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Dave Benjamin
        Jean, My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I m in the business. I ve seen some
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 1, 2009
          Jean,
          My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels.  Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
          n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience. 
          I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help. 

          --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:

          From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@...>
          Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
          To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM













           





          Dave,



          As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.



          As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.



          My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group

          for personal profit and/or business promotion.



          I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,

          it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited

          self-promoting material.



          Regards,



          Jean Boucharlat

          (Formerly SM 232)



          From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

          [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

          Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11

          To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

          Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104



          Jean,

          Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who

          better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints

          from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel

          pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who

          was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial

          modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.



          If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.

          And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me

          directly than publicly.

          Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29



          --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr

          <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:



          From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr

          <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >

          Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

          To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

          <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

          Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM



          To the moderator and all members of this group



          I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly



          advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.



          This is not the first time he has done it.



          I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it



          very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel



          Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges



          of information between members.



          All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).



          Jean Boucharlat



          (Formerly SM 232)



          From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com



          [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin



          Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25



          To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com



          Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104



          Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing



          has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with



          Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in



          the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality



          cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some



          real advantages over the competition.



          www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com



          --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%

          40gmail.com>



          > wrote:



          From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >



          Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104



          To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com



          <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>



          Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM



          I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'



          company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done



          in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.



          Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.



          <br>



          Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18



          oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS



          Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10



          Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,



          Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag



          1 2,183.00 2,183.00T



          <br>



          Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker



          Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella



          Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and



          Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag



          1 2,438.00 2,438.00T



          <br>



          Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz



          Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten



          Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,



          Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag



          1 784.00 784.00T



          <br>



          ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T



          <br>



          Hope this helps



          --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>



          wrote:



          >



          > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark



          of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and



          sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety



          of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.



          >



          > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality



          or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so



          cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what



          it cost just to buy top quality material.



          >



          > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.



          >



          >



          > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:



          >



          > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>



          > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104



          > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com



          > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          > Dear all,



          >



          >



          >



          > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go



          for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They



          guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions



          about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,



          top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)



          >



          > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,



          Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US



          (incl. P&P)!!!!



          >



          >



          >



          > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all



          in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find



          anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat



          without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should



          be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a



          full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to



          10 bft all was perfect OK.



          >



          >



          >



          > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.



          >



          >



          >



          > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          >



          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dave Benjamin
          Kent, Thanks for sharing your perspective. You ve left me a bit confused though because if I am reading what you wrote correctly, you wish you had known about
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 1, 2009
            Kent,
            Thanks for sharing your perspective. You've left me a bit confused though because if I am reading what you wrote correctly, you wish you had known about my company before buying from Banks. So are you saying you would not want other owners to know a worthy alternative exists? The only time I ever mention I own a loft is when someone brings up sails. 
            If I have a question about electronics or some other aspect that I am not well versed in I would appreciate knowing that a fellow owner is in the business and may be able to assist me. I don't consider it an inappropriate use of a forum. However if I am asking about electronics and someone wants to promote their anchor swivel then I feel that would be out of bounds. 

            --- On Sat, 8/1/09, karkauai <karkauai@...> wrote:

            From: karkauai <karkauai@...>
            Subject: [Amel] Re: New Sails for Sharki 104
            To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:39 AM













             





            I tend to agree with Jean. Dave, I really appreciate your posts and wouldn't want you to feel that I'm upset with you at all, but whenever there's a discussion about sails, your posts have a "commercial" feel. That said, I wish I'd come to this site before I bought my sails. I'm very happy with the ones I got from Banks in Kemah, TX, but I feel I could have gotten sails of equal quality for a better price from Dave, and I wouldn't have had to rely on a loft that didn't have much experience with Amels.

            Kent

            "Kristy" SM 243



            --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:

            >

            > Dave,

            >

            >

            >

            > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.

            >

            > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.

            >

            >

            >

            > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group

            > for personal profit and/or business promotion.

            >

            >

            >

            > I didn't write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,

            > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited

            > self-promoting material.

            >

            >

            >

            > Regards,

            >

            >

            >

            > Jean Boucharlat

            > (Formerly SM 232)

            >

            >

            >

            > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

            > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11

            > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > Jean,

            > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who

            > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints

            > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel

            > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who

            > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial

            > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.

            >

            > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.

            > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me

            > directly than publicly.

            > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29

            >

            > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ ...

            > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:

            >

            > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ ...

            > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >

            > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

            > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

            > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM

            >

            >

            >

            > To the moderator and all members of this group

            >

            > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly

            >

            > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.

            >

            > This is not the first time he has done it.

            >

            > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it

            >

            > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel

            >

            > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges

            >

            > of information between members.

            >

            > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).

            >

            > Jean Boucharlat

            >

            > (Formerly SM 232)

            >

            > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            >

            > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

            >

            > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25

            >

            > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            >

            > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

            >

            > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing

            >

            > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with

            >

            > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in

            >

            > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality

            >

            > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some

            >

            > real advantages over the competition.

            >

            > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com

            >

            > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%

            > 40gmail.com>

            >

            > > wrote:

            >

            > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >

            >

            > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

            >

            > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            >

            > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

            >

            > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM

            >

            > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'

            >

            > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done

            >

            > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.

            >

            > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.

            >

            > <br>

            >

            > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18

            >

            > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS

            >

            > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10

            >

            > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,

            >

            > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

            >

            > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T

            >

            > <br>

            >

            > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker

            >

            > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella

            >

            > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and

            >

            > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag

            >

            > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T

            >

            > <br>

            >

            > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz

            >

            > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten

            >

            > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,

            >

            > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

            >

            > 1 784.00 784.00T

            >

            > <br>

            >

            > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T

            >

            > <br>

            >

            > Hope this helps

            >

            > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>

            >

            > wrote:

            >

            > >

            >

            > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark

            >

            > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and

            >

            > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety

            >

            > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.

            >

            > >

            >

            > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality

            >

            > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so

            >

            > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what

            >

            > it cost just to buy top quality material.

            >

            > >

            >

            > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:

            >

            > >

            >

            > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>

            >

            > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

            >

            > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

            >

            > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Dear all,

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go

            >

            > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They

            >

            > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions

            >

            > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,

            >

            > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)

            >

            > >

            >

            > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,

            >

            > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US

            >

            > (incl. P&P)!!!!

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all

            >

            > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find

            >

            > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat

            >

            > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should

            >

            > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a

            >

            > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to

            >

            > 10 bft all was perfect OK.

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > >

            >

            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            > >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jean Boucharlat
            Dave, Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 2, 2009
              Dave,



              Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.



              Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.



              Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!



              This will be my last post on this issue.

              I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.



              Regards,



              Jean Boucharlat

              (Formerly SM 232)



              From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
              Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
              To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104





              Jean,
              My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
              n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
              I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.

              --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:

              From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...>
              Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
              To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM



              Dave,

              As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.

              As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.

              My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group

              for personal profit and/or business promotion.

              I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,

              it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited

              self-promoting material.

              Regards,

              Jean Boucharlat

              (Formerly SM 232)

              From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

              Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11

              To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

              Jean,

              Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who

              better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints

              from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel

              pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who

              was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial

              modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.

              If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.

              And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me

              directly than publicly.

              Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29

              --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr

              <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:

              From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr

              <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >

              Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

              To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

              Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM

              To the moderator and all members of this group

              I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly

              advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.

              This is not the first time he has done it.

              I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it

              very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel

              Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges

              of information between members.

              All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).

              Jean Boucharlat

              (Formerly SM 232)

              From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

              Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25

              To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

              Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing

              has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with

              Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in

              the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality

              cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some

              real advantages over the competition.

              www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com

              --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%

              40gmail.com>

              > wrote:

              From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >

              Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

              To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

              Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM

              I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'

              company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done

              in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.

              Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.

              <br>

              Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18

              oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS

              Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10

              Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,

              Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

              1 2,183.00 2,183.00T

              <br>

              Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker

              Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella

              Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and

              Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag

              1 2,438.00 2,438.00T

              <br>

              Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz

              Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten

              Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,

              Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

              1 784.00 784.00T

              <br>

              ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T

              <br>

              Hope this helps

              --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>

              wrote:

              >

              > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark

              of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and

              sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety

              of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.

              >

              > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality

              or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so

              cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what

              it cost just to buy top quality material.

              >

              > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.

              >

              >

              > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:

              >

              > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>

              > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

              > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

              > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > Dear all,

              >

              >

              >

              > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go

              for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They

              guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions

              about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,

              top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)

              >

              > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,

              Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US

              (incl. P&P)!!!!

              >

              >

              >

              > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all

              in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find

              anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat

              without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should

              be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a

              full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to

              10 bft all was perfect OK.

              >

              >

              >

              > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.

              >

              >

              >

              > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave_Benjamin
              Jean and others, Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum. On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 2, 2009
                Jean and others,

                Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.

                On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.

                --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                >
                >
                > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                >
                >
                >
                > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                >
                >
                >
                > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                >
                >
                >
                > This will be my last post on this issue.
                >
                > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                >
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                >
                >
                > Jean Boucharlat
                >
                > (Formerly SM 232)
                >
                >
                >
                > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Jean,
                > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                >
                > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...>
                > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                > To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                >
                >
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                >
                > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                >
                > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                >
                > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                >
                > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                >
                > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                >
                > self-promoting material.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Jean Boucharlat
                >
                > (Formerly SM 232)
                >
                > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                >
                > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                >
                > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                > Jean,
                >
                > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                >
                > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                >
                > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                >
                > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                >
                > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                >
                > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                >
                > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                >
                > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                >
                > directly than publicly.
                >
                > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                >
                > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                >
                > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                >
                > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                >
                > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                >
                > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                >
                > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                >
                > To the moderator and all members of this group
                >
                > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                >
                > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                >
                > This is not the first time he has done it.
                >
                > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                >
                > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                >
                > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                >
                > of information between members.
                >
                > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                >
                > Jean Boucharlat
                >
                > (Formerly SM 232)
                >
                > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                >
                > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                >
                > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                >
                > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                >
                > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                >
                > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                >
                > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                >
                > real advantages over the competition.
                >
                > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                >
                > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                >
                > 40gmail.com>
                >
                > > wrote:
                >
                > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                >
                > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                >
                > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                >
                > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                >
                > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                >
                > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                >
                > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                >
                > <br>
                >
                > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                >
                > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                >
                > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                >
                > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                >
                > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                >
                > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                >
                > <br>
                >
                > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                >
                > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                >
                > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                >
                > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                >
                > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                >
                > <br>
                >
                > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                >
                > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                >
                > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                >
                > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                >
                > 1 784.00 784.00T
                >
                > <br>
                >
                > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                >
                > <br>
                >
                > Hope this helps
                >
                > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                >
                > wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                >
                > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                >
                > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                >
                > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                >
                > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                >
                > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                >
                > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                >
                > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                >
                > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                >
                > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Dear all,
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                >
                > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                >
                > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                >
                > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                >
                > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                >
                > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                >
                > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                >
                > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                >
                > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                >
                > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                >
                > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                >
                > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                >
                > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Dr. Seidel
                Dave- I missed your loft name. Please repeat it. Also Omar Sails in Beaufort N.C. owned by Paul Lockwood have made me some very nice sails over past 25 years
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 2, 2009
                  Dave- I missed your loft name. Please repeat it. Also Omar Sails in Beaufort N.C. owned by Paul Lockwood have made me some very nice sails over past 25 years for me and he has done 2 suits for amel maramu's . His prices knock the socks off U-K etc. Murray Seidel sm349
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dave_Benjamin
                  To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 3:41 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104


                  Jean and others,

                  Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.

                  On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.

                  --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This will be my last post on this issue.
                  >
                  > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jean Boucharlat
                  >
                  > (Formerly SM 232)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                  > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                  > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jean,
                  > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                  > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                  > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                  >
                  > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@...>
                  > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  > To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  >
                  > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                  >
                  > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                  >
                  > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                  >
                  > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                  >
                  > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                  >
                  > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                  >
                  > self-promoting material.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Jean Boucharlat
                  >
                  > (Formerly SM 232)
                  >
                  > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                  >
                  > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                  >
                  > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  > Jean,
                  >
                  > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                  >
                  > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                  >
                  > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                  >
                  > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                  >
                  > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                  >
                  > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                  >
                  > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                  >
                  > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                  >
                  > directly than publicly.
                  >
                  > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                  >
                  > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                  >
                  > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                  >
                  > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                  >
                  > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                  >
                  > To the moderator and all members of this group
                  >
                  > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                  >
                  > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                  >
                  > This is not the first time he has done it.
                  >
                  > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                  >
                  > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                  >
                  > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                  >
                  > of information between members.
                  >
                  > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                  >
                  > Jean Boucharlat
                  >
                  > (Formerly SM 232)
                  >
                  > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                  >
                  > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                  >
                  > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                  >
                  > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                  >
                  > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                  >
                  > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                  >
                  > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                  >
                  > real advantages over the competition.
                  >
                  > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                  >
                  > 40gmail.com>
                  >
                  > > wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                  >
                  > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                  >
                  > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                  >
                  > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                  >
                  > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                  >
                  > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
                  > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                  >
                  > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                  >
                  > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                  >
                  > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                  >
                  > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                  >
                  > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
                  > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                  >
                  > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                  >
                  > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                  >
                  > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                  >
                  > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
                  > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                  >
                  > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                  >
                  > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                  >
                  > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                  >
                  > 1 784.00 784.00T
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
                  > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
                  > Hope this helps
                  >
                  > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                  >
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                  >
                  > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                  >
                  > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                  >
                  > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                  >
                  > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                  >
                  > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                  >
                  > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                  >
                  > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                  >
                  > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Dear all,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                  >
                  > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                  >
                  > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                  >
                  > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                  >
                  > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                  >
                  > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                  >
                  > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                  >
                  > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                  >
                  > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                  >
                  > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                  >
                  > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                  >
                  > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                  >
                  > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kent Robertson
                  Hi Dave, I m not so sure I even object, as I said in my post.  It s just that when it comes to posts about sails, yours do sound a bit commercial.  Maybe
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 6, 2009
                    Hi Dave,
                    I'm not so sure I even object, as I said in my post.  It's just that when it comes to posts about sails, yours do sound a bit commercial.  Maybe it's just that every time a question about new sails comes up your posts are very similar...kinda like hearing the same commercial on TV over and over.  It's not really offensive to me, but yours are the only ones on this site that have that feel to them.  Not really sure what I would have you do any differently, either.  If I'm still healthy enough to outlast my new sails, I'll definitely give you a call before I have new ones built.  Please don't take offense, I'm really thankful for guys like you who can help me learn how to make this boat all she can be.
                    Kent

                    --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:


                    From: Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Amel] Re: New Sails for Sharki 104
                    To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 12:00 AM


                     



                    Kent,
                    Thanks for sharing your perspective. You've left me a bit confused though because if I am reading what you wrote correctly, you wish you had known about my company before buying from Banks. So are you saying you would not want other owners to know a worthy alternative exists? The only time I ever mention I own a loft is when someone brings up sails. 
                    If I have a question about electronics or some other aspect that I am not well versed in I would appreciate knowing that a fellow owner is in the business and may be able to assist me. I don't consider it an inappropriate use of a forum. However if I am asking about electronics and someone wants to promote their anchor swivel then I feel that would be out of bounds. 

                    --- On Sat, 8/1/09, karkauai <karkauai@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    From: karkauai <karkauai@yahoo. com>
                    Subject: [Amel] Re: New Sails for Sharki 104
                    To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:39 AM

                     

                    I tend to agree with Jean. Dave, I really appreciate your posts and wouldn't want you to feel that I'm upset with you at all, but whenever there's a discussion about sails, your posts have a "commercial" feel. That said, I wish I'd come to this site before I bought my sails. I'm very happy with the ones I got from Banks in Kemah, TX, but I feel I could have gotten sails of equal quality for a better price from Dave, and I wouldn't have had to rely on a loft that didn't have much experience with Amels.

                    Kent

                    "Kristy" SM 243

                    --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:

                    >

                    > Dave,

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.

                    >

                    > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group

                    > for personal profit and/or business promotion.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > I didn't write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,

                    > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited

                    > self-promoting material.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Regards,

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Jean Boucharlat

                    > (Formerly SM 232)

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

                    > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11

                    > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Jean,

                    > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who

                    > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints

                    > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel

                    > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who

                    > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial

                    > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.

                    >

                    > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.

                    > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me

                    > directly than publicly.

                    > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29

                    >

                    > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ ...

                    > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:

                    >

                    > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ ...

                    > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >

                    > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

                    > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

                    > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > To the moderator and all members of this group

                    >

                    > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly

                    >

                    > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.

                    >

                    > This is not the first time he has done it.

                    >

                    > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it

                    >

                    > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel

                    >

                    > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges

                    >

                    > of information between members.

                    >

                    > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).

                    >

                    > Jean Boucharlat

                    >

                    > (Formerly SM 232)

                    >

                    > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    >

                    > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin

                    >

                    > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25

                    >

                    > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    >

                    > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

                    >

                    > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing

                    >

                    > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with

                    >

                    > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in

                    >

                    > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality

                    >

                    > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some

                    >

                    > real advantages over the competition.

                    >

                    > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com

                    >

                    > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%

                    > 40gmail.com>

                    >

                    > > wrote:

                    >

                    > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >

                    >

                    > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

                    >

                    > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    >

                    > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>

                    >

                    > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM

                    >

                    > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'

                    >

                    > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done

                    >

                    > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.

                    >

                    > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.

                    >

                    > <br>

                    >

                    > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18

                    >

                    > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS

                    >

                    > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10

                    >

                    > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,

                    >

                    > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

                    >

                    > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T

                    >

                    > <br>

                    >

                    > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker

                    >

                    > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella

                    >

                    > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and

                    >

                    > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag

                    >

                    > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T

                    >

                    > <br>

                    >

                    > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz

                    >

                    > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten

                    >

                    > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,

                    >

                    > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag

                    >

                    > 1 784.00 784.00T

                    >

                    > <br>

                    >

                    > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T

                    >

                    > <br>

                    >

                    > Hope this helps

                    >

                    > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>

                    >

                    > wrote:

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark

                    >

                    > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and

                    >

                    > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety

                    >

                    > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality

                    >

                    > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so

                    >

                    > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what

                    >

                    > it cost just to buy top quality material.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>

                    >

                    > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104

                    >

                    > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

                    >

                    > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Dear all,

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go

                    >

                    > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They

                    >

                    > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions

                    >

                    > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,

                    >

                    > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,

                    >

                    > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US

                    >

                    > (incl. P&P)!!!!

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all

                    >

                    > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find

                    >

                    > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat

                    >

                    > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should

                    >

                    > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a

                    >

                    > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to

                    >

                    > 10 bft all was perfect OK.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kent Robertson
                    Awww, Dave, please don t do this.  We do value your posts and want you to be active as in the past. Kent ... From: Dave_Benjamin
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 6, 2009
                      Awww, Dave, please don't do this.  We do value your posts and want you to be active as in the past.
                      Kent

                      --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:


                      From: Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 3:41 PM


                       



                      Jean and others,

                      Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.

                      On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.

                      --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This will be my last post on this issue.
                      >
                      > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jean Boucharlat
                      >
                      > (Formerly SM 232)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                      > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jean,
                      > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                      > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                      > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                      >
                      > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> jean.boucharlat@ ...>
                      > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      > To: <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com> amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      >
                      > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                      >
                      > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                      >
                      > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                      >
                      > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                      >
                      > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                      >
                      > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                      >
                      > self-promoting material.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Jean Boucharlat
                      >
                      > (Formerly SM 232)
                      >
                      > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                      >
                      > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                      >
                      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      > Jean,
                      >
                      > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                      >
                      > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                      >
                      > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                      >
                      > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                      >
                      > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                      >
                      > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                      >
                      > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                      >
                      > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                      >
                      > directly than publicly.
                      >
                      > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                      >
                      > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                      >
                      > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                      >
                      > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                      >
                      > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                      >
                      > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                      >
                      > To the moderator and all members of this group
                      >
                      > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                      >
                      > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                      >
                      > This is not the first time he has done it.
                      >
                      > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                      >
                      > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                      >
                      > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                      >
                      > of information between members.
                      >
                      > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                      >
                      > Jean Boucharlat
                      >
                      > (Formerly SM 232)
                      >
                      > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                      >
                      > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                      >
                      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                      >
                      > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                      >
                      > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                      >
                      > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                      >
                      > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                      >
                      > real advantages over the competition.
                      >
                      > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                      >
                      > 40gmail.com>
                      >
                      > > wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                      >
                      > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                      >
                      > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                      >
                      > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                      >
                      > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                      >
                      > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
                      > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                      >
                      > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                      >
                      > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                      >
                      > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                      >
                      > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                      >
                      > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
                      > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                      >
                      > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                      >
                      > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                      >
                      > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                      >
                      > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
                      > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                      >
                      > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                      >
                      > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                      >
                      > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                      >
                      > 1 784.00 784.00T
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
                      > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                      >
                      > <br>
                      >
                      > Hope this helps
                      >
                      > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                      >
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                      >
                      > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                      >
                      > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                      >
                      > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                      >
                      > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                      >
                      > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                      >
                      > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                      >
                      > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                      >
                      > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Dear all,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                      >
                      > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                      >
                      > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                      >
                      > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                      >
                      > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                      >
                      > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                      >
                      > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                      >
                      > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                      >
                      > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                      >
                      > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                      >
                      > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                      >
                      > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                      >
                      > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mr D
                      Jean, I do not think your comment to Dave was fair. I think he has made best effort possible to exclude his business from the discussion in this and in prior
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 11, 2009
                        Jean, I do not think your comment to Dave was fair. I think he has made best effort possible to exclude his business from the discussion in this and in prior posts. It is really difficult to find a good sails loft - anybody who can saw or speak Chinese thinks she or he can start one. Discussing various lofts available, especially those familiar with Les Chantiers AMEL yachts is rare and useful information. In my solidarity with Dave, whom I know mostly from his posts and have little to none associations with, I will too refrain from this group, until you kindly post an apology to that man and ask him to reconsider. As a fair moderator, I hope you can see that this is in the forum's best interest.

                        --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Dave_Benjamin" <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Jean and others,
                        >
                        > Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.
                        >
                        > On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.
                        >
                        > --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dave,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > This will be my last post on this issue.
                        > >
                        > > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Jean Boucharlat
                        > >
                        > > (Formerly SM 232)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                        > > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                        > > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Jean,
                        > > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                        > > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                        > > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                        > >
                        > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@>
                        > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > > To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dave,
                        > >
                        > > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                        > >
                        > > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                        > >
                        > > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                        > >
                        > > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                        > >
                        > > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                        > >
                        > > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                        > >
                        > > self-promoting material.
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > >
                        > > Jean Boucharlat
                        > >
                        > > (Formerly SM 232)
                        > >
                        > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                        > >
                        > > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                        > >
                        > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > > Jean,
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                        > >
                        > > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                        > >
                        > > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                        > >
                        > > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                        > >
                        > > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                        > >
                        > > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                        > >
                        > > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                        > >
                        > > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                        > >
                        > > directly than publicly.
                        > >
                        > > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                        > >
                        > > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                        > >
                        > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                        > >
                        > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                        > >
                        > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                        > >
                        > > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                        > >
                        > > To the moderator and all members of this group
                        > >
                        > > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                        > >
                        > > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                        > >
                        > > This is not the first time he has done it.
                        > >
                        > > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                        > >
                        > > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                        > >
                        > > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                        > >
                        > > of information between members.
                        > >
                        > > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                        > >
                        > > Jean Boucharlat
                        > >
                        > > (Formerly SM 232)
                        > >
                        > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                        > >
                        > > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                        > >
                        > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                        > >
                        > > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                        > >
                        > > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                        > >
                        > > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                        > >
                        > > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                        > >
                        > > real advantages over the competition.
                        > >
                        > > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                        > >
                        > > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                        > >
                        > > 40gmail.com>
                        > >
                        > > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                        > >
                        > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                        > >
                        > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                        > >
                        > > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                        > >
                        > > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                        > >
                        > > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                        > >
                        > > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > >
                        > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                        > >
                        > > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                        > >
                        > > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                        > >
                        > > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                        > >
                        > > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                        > >
                        > > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > >
                        > > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                        > >
                        > > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                        > >
                        > > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                        > >
                        > > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                        > >
                        > > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > >
                        > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                        > >
                        > > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                        > >
                        > > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                        > >
                        > > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                        > >
                        > > 1 784.00 784.00T
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > >
                        > > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > >
                        > > Hope this helps
                        > >
                        > > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                        > >
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                        > >
                        > > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                        > >
                        > > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                        > >
                        > > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                        > >
                        > > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                        > >
                        > > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                        > >
                        > > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                        > >
                        > > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                        > >
                        > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                        > >
                        > > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Dear all,
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                        > >
                        > > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                        > >
                        > > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                        > >
                        > > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                        > >
                        > > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                        > >
                        > > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                        > >
                        > > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                        > >
                        > > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                        > >
                        > > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                        > >
                        > > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                        > >
                        > > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                        > >
                        > > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                        > >
                        > > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • Jean Boucharlat
                        Mr. D. I can only refer you to the last sentences of my last post on this issue: Quote “This will be my last post on this issue. I have made my point, I’ll
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 12, 2009
                          Mr. D.



                          I can only refer you to the last sentences of my last post on this issue:



                          Quote



                          “This will be my last post on this issue.

                          I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.”



                          Unquote

                          Regards,

                          Jean Boucharlat
                          (Formerly SM 232)



                          From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr D
                          Sent: mercredi 12 août 2009 06:00
                          To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Amel] Re: New Sails for Sharki 104





                          Jean, I do not think your comment to Dave was fair. I think he has made best effort possible to exclude his business from the discussion in this and in prior posts. It is really difficult to find a good sails loft - anybody who can saw or speak Chinese thinks she or he can start one. Discussing various lofts available, especially those familiar with Les Chantiers AMEL yachts is rare and useful information. In my solidarity with Dave, whom I know mostly from his posts and have little to none associations with, I will too refrain from this group, until you kindly post an apology to that man and ask him to reconsider. As a fair moderator, I hope you can see that this is in the forum's best interest.

                          --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dave_Benjamin" <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jean and others,
                          >
                          > Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.
                          >
                          > On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.
                          >
                          > --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dave,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > This will be my last post on this issue.
                          > >
                          > > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Jean Boucharlat
                          > >
                          > > (Formerly SM 232)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                          > > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                          > > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Jean,
                          > > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                          > > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                          > > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                          > >
                          > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@>
                          > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > > To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dave,
                          > >
                          > > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                          > >
                          > > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                          > >
                          > > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                          > >
                          > > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                          > >
                          > > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                          > >
                          > > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                          > >
                          > > self-promoting material.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > Jean Boucharlat
                          > >
                          > > (Formerly SM 232)
                          > >
                          > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                          > >
                          > > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                          > >
                          > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > > Jean,
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                          > >
                          > > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                          > >
                          > > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                          > >
                          > > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                          > >
                          > > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                          > >
                          > > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                          > >
                          > > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                          > >
                          > > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                          > >
                          > > directly than publicly.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                          > >
                          > > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                          > >
                          > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                          > >
                          > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                          > >
                          > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                          > >
                          > > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                          > >
                          > > To the moderator and all members of this group
                          > >
                          > > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                          > >
                          > > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                          > >
                          > > This is not the first time he has done it.
                          > >
                          > > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                          > >
                          > > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                          > >
                          > > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                          > >
                          > > of information between members.
                          > >
                          > > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                          > >
                          > > Jean Boucharlat
                          > >
                          > > (Formerly SM 232)
                          > >
                          > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                          > >
                          > > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                          > >
                          > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                          > >
                          > > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                          > >
                          > > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                          > >
                          > > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                          > >
                          > > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                          > >
                          > > real advantages over the competition.
                          > >
                          > > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                          > >
                          > > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                          > >
                          > > 40gmail.com>
                          > >
                          > > > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                          > >
                          > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                          > >
                          > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                          > >
                          > > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                          > >
                          > > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                          > >
                          > > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                          > >
                          > > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                          > >
                          > > <br>
                          > >
                          > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                          > >
                          > > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                          > >
                          > > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                          > >
                          > > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                          > >
                          > > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                          > >
                          > > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                          > >
                          > > <br>
                          > >
                          > > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                          > >
                          > > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                          > >
                          > > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                          > >
                          > > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                          > >
                          > > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                          > >
                          > > <br>
                          > >
                          > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                          > >
                          > > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                          > >
                          > > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                          > >
                          > > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                          > >
                          > > 1 784.00 784.00T
                          > >
                          > > <br>
                          > >
                          > > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                          > >
                          > > <br>
                          > >
                          > > Hope this helps
                          > >
                          > > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                          > >
                          > > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                          > >
                          > > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                          > >
                          > > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                          > >
                          > > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                          > >
                          > > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                          > >
                          > > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                          > >
                          > > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                          > >
                          > > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                          > >
                          > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >
                          > > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Dear all,
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                          > >
                          > > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                          > >
                          > > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                          > >
                          > > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                          > >
                          > > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                          > >
                          > > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                          > >
                          > > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                          > >
                          > > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                          > >
                          > > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                          > >
                          > > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                          > >
                          > > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                          > >
                          > > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                          > >
                          > > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
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                          > > >
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                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > >
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                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
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                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mr D
                          Jean, I disapprove of what you say, but I ll defend to the death your right to say it. The forum has very good information, even if it is biased. Let it remain
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 12, 2009
                            Jean, I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. The forum has very good information, even if it is biased. Let it remain as such - without me.

                            --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Mr. D.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I can only refer you to the last sentences of my last post on this issue:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Quote
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > “This will be my last post on this issue.
                            >
                            > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.”
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Unquote
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            > Jean Boucharlat
                            > (Formerly SM 232)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr D
                            > Sent: mercredi 12 août 2009 06:00
                            > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Amel] Re: New Sails for Sharki 104
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Jean, I do not think your comment to Dave was fair. I think he has made best effort possible to exclude his business from the discussion in this and in prior posts. It is really difficult to find a good sails loft - anybody who can saw or speak Chinese thinks she or he can start one. Discussing various lofts available, especially those familiar with Les Chantiers AMEL yachts is rare and useful information. In my solidarity with Dave, whom I know mostly from his posts and have little to none associations with, I will too refrain from this group, until you kindly post an apology to that man and ask him to reconsider. As a fair moderator, I hope you can see that this is in the forum's best interest.
                            >
                            > --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dave_Benjamin" <dave_benjamin@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Jean and others,
                            > >
                            > > Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.
                            > >
                            > > On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.
                            > >
                            > > --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave,
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > This will be my last post on this issue.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards,
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Jean Boucharlat
                            > > >
                            > > > (Formerly SM 232)
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                            > > > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                            > > > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Jean,
                            > > > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                            > > > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                            > > > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean.boucharlat%40orange.fr> jean.boucharlat@>
                            > > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > > To: <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com> amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave,
                            > > >
                            > > > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                            > > >
                            > > > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                            > > >
                            > > > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                            > > >
                            > > > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                            > > >
                            > > > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                            > > >
                            > > > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                            > > >
                            > > > self-promoting material.
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards,
                            > > >
                            > > > Jean Boucharlat
                            > > >
                            > > > (Formerly SM 232)
                            > > >
                            > > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                            > > >
                            > > > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                            > > >
                            > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > > Jean,
                            > > >
                            > > > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                            > > >
                            > > > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                            > > >
                            > > > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                            > > >
                            > > > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                            > > >
                            > > > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                            > > >
                            > > > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                            > > >
                            > > > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                            > > >
                            > > > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                            > > >
                            > > > directly than publicly.
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                            > > >
                            > > > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                            > > >
                            > > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                            > > >
                            > > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                            > > >
                            > > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                            > > >
                            > > > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                            > > >
                            > > > To the moderator and all members of this group
                            > > >
                            > > > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                            > > >
                            > > > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                            > > >
                            > > > This is not the first time he has done it.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                            > > >
                            > > > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                            > > >
                            > > > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                            > > >
                            > > > of information between members.
                            > > >
                            > > > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                            > > >
                            > > > Jean Boucharlat
                            > > >
                            > > > (Formerly SM 232)
                            > > >
                            > > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                            > > >
                            > > > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                            > > >
                            > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                            > > >
                            > > > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                            > > >
                            > > > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                            > > >
                            > > > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                            > > >
                            > > > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                            > > >
                            > > > real advantages over the competition.
                            > > >
                            > > > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                            > > >
                            > > > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                            > > >
                            > > > 40gmail.com>
                            > > >
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                            > > >
                            > > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                            > > >
                            > > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                            > > >
                            > > > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                            > > >
                            > > > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                            > > >
                            > > > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                            > > >
                            > > > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                            > > >
                            > > > <br>
                            > > >
                            > > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                            > > >
                            > > > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                            > > >
                            > > > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                            > > >
                            > > > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                            > > >
                            > > > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                            > > >
                            > > > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                            > > >
                            > > > <br>
                            > > >
                            > > > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                            > > >
                            > > > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                            > > >
                            > > > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                            > > >
                            > > > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                            > > >
                            > > > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                            > > >
                            > > > <br>
                            > > >
                            > > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                            > > >
                            > > > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                            > > >
                            > > > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                            > > >
                            > > > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                            > > >
                            > > > 1 784.00 784.00T
                            > > >
                            > > > <br>
                            > > >
                            > > > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                            > > >
                            > > > <br>
                            > > >
                            > > > Hope this helps
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                            > > >
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                            > > >
                            > > > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                            > > >
                            > > > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                            > > >
                            > > > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                            > > >
                            > > > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                            > > >
                            > > > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                            > > >
                            > > > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                            > > >
                            > > > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                            > > >
                            > > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >
                            > > > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Dear all,
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                            > > >
                            > > > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                            > > >
                            > > > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                            > > >
                            > > > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                            > > >
                            > > > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                            > > >
                            > > > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                            > > >
                            > > > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                            > > >
                            > > > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                            > > >
                            > > > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                            > > >
                            > > > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                            > > >
                            > > > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                            > > >
                            > > > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                            > > >
                            > > > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
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                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > >
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                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
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                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Jose_Luis Isasi
                            Ladies and Gentlemen, I co-moderate this group to assist Richard (closereach). He may be away at this moment and I would like to arbitrate so we do keep our
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 12, 2009
                              Ladies and Gentlemen,

                              I co-moderate this group to assist Richard (closereach). He may be away at this moment and I would like to arbitrate so we do keep our forum intact and as positive as always has been.

                              I think everybody can express his opinion while is not trying to offend others (I am sure Jean did not want it), sometimes it is difficult because we are not professional writers and even this might not be our mother tongue (my case).

                              I also think Dave greatly contributes as he can provide professional experience, and everybody is of course free to contact him for a quote. He never has spammed us with bargains or things like that.

                              I encourage everyone to drop the subject, and have some beers together. Let´s keep this forum for all of us.

                              Thank you very much
                              Jose L. Isasi




                              --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Kent Robertson <karkauai@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Awww, Dave, please don't do this.  We do value your posts and want you to be active as in the past.
                              > Kent
                              >
                              > --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 3:41 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jean and others,
                              >
                              > Point taken. My apologies. I will no longer be posting anything on this forum.
                              >
                              > On other forums, most notably ones oriented for North American cruisers, I have been thanked for my contributions and perspective. So I won't waste any more time and/or energy on this forum. Better to put those efforts where the posts are welcomed.
                              >
                              > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, "Jean Boucharlat" <jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dave,
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Most, if not all of us, have special skills and/or experience that we are willing to exchange with others on this forum for the benefit of all. That’s the very point of this forum. As none of us, so far, has tried to make business here, we know that the opinions or advices exchanged, even when occasionally erroneous, are always non-commercial and in good faith.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your sail making experience is obviously valuable to everybody if you are willing to keep it separate from your pocketbook. Otherwise we will never know from what perspective you are talking and your opinions will lose their value.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Sailing is, thankfully, steeped in traditions and I would very much like to uphold the old European one that it is very bad manners to carry business at the club!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > This will be my last post on this issue.
                              > >
                              > > I have made my point, I’ll stick to my opinion, but I’ll let members do as they wish.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Jean Boucharlat
                              > >
                              > > (Formerly SM 232)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                              > > Sent: dimanche 2 août 2009 05:38
                              > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Jean,
                              > > My opinion is that when someone is discussing sails specifically I should not be prohibited from mentioning that I'm in the business. I've seen some really poor choices made by sailmakers who don't understand Amels. Why not let people know there is a sailmaker who understands both their boat and their needs?
                              > > n addition to sailmaking I'm a USCG licenced captain and I have over 30 years of experience.
                              > > I respect your opinion but if someone is asking about sails I don't feel it's inappropriate to mention we may be able to help.
                              > >
                              > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> jean.boucharlat@ ...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Jean Boucharlat < <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> jean.boucharlat@ ...>
                              > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > > To: <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com> amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 12:47 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dave,
                              > >
                              > > As a Maramu owner you are just as welcome in this group as any of us.
                              > >
                              > > As a sail maker trying to drum up business you are not.
                              > >
                              > > My plain, simple and only point is that no one should try to use this group
                              > >
                              > > for personal profit and/or business promotion.
                              > >
                              > > I didn’t write directly to you because the issue is not between you and me,
                              > >
                              > > it concerns the whole membership to which you address your unsolicited
                              > >
                              > > self-promoting material.
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > > Jean Boucharlat
                              > >
                              > > (Formerly SM 232)
                              > >
                              > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                              > >
                              > > Sent: samedi 1 août 2009 00:11
                              > >
                              > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > > Jean,
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps you are unaware that I own a Maramu, and thus am also an owner.Who
                              > >
                              > > better to build sails for an Amel than an Amel owner? I've heard complaints
                              > >
                              > > from owners that their sails don't work well with the rather unique Amel
                              > >
                              > > pole system because they are cut incorrectly. I recently met a SM owner who
                              > >
                              > > was supplied a furling mizzen that did not work without substantial
                              > >
                              > > modification, agaion on account of a sailmaker unaccustomed to the Amel rig.
                              > >
                              > > If you don't care to read my posts feel free to delete them.
                              > >
                              > > And I think it would have been far more appropriate for you to contact me
                              > >
                              > > directly than publicly.
                              > >
                              > > Regards,Dave BenjaminS/V Exit StrategyMaramu #29
                              > >
                              > > --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                              > >
                              > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Jean Boucharlat <jean.boucharlat@ orange.fr
                              > >
                              > > <mailto:jean. boucharlat% 40orange. fr> >
                              > >
                              > > Subject: RE: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                              > >
                              > > Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
                              > >
                              > > To the moderator and all members of this group
                              > >
                              > > I think that Dave Benjamin, whom I have never met, should be strongly
                              > >
                              > > advised to refrain from peddling his sails on this group site.
                              > >
                              > > This is not the first time he has done it.
                              > >
                              > > I have no idea whether his sails are good, bad or indifferent but I find it
                              > >
                              > > very disturbing to be exposed to his insidious commercials in this Amel
                              > >
                              > > Owners Group that is only intended for friendly and disinterested exchanges
                              > >
                              > > of information between members.
                              > >
                              > > All comments are welcomed (except from Dave Benjamin himself).
                              > >
                              > > Jean Boucharlat
                              > >
                              > > (Formerly SM 232)
                              > >
                              > > From: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > [mailto:amelyachtow ners@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Benjamin
                              > >
                              > > Sent: vendredi 31 juillet 2009 02:25
                              > >
                              > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the kind words. I wish we could have been of service. One thing
                              > >
                              > > has changed since you got your quote from us. We now have an alliance with
                              > >
                              > > Hyde Sails for our manufacturing and we are offering Hyde branded sails in
                              > >
                              > > the local market. I would encourage any Amel owners desiring top quality
                              > >
                              > > cruising sails at a great price to contact us for a quote. Hyde offers some
                              > >
                              > > real advantages over the competition.
                              > >
                              > > www.IslandPlanetSai ls.com
                              > >
                              > > --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin%
                              > >
                              > > 40gmail.com>
                              > >
                              > > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Mr D <dshkipin@gmail. com <mailto:dshkipin% 40gmail.com> >
                              > >
                              > > Subject: Re: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > <mailto:amelyachtow ners%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                              > >
                              > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:50 PM
                              > >
                              > > I agree with Dave. I did a fair amount of shopping around, including Daves'
                              > >
                              > > company which had a very competitive deal. I ended up getting my sails done
                              > >
                              > > in May of this year for 6,938 USD incl CA tax from UK-Halsey San Francisco.
                              > >
                              > > Here is the breakdown FYI for anyone looking to get new sails.
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > >
                              > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead II Mainsail, Challenge 9.18
                              > >
                              > > oz Dacron, Blue Water Finish, Attached Foot, 4 RBS
                              > >
                              > > Battens, Top 2 Battens Full-Length, Sailman M10
                              > >
                              > > Batten Receptacles & Joints, 3 Reefs, Draft Stripes,
                              > >
                              > > Leech Cord, Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                              > >
                              > > 1 2,183.00 2,183.00T
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > >
                              > > Amel 39 Ketch 120% Roller Furling Passagemaker
                              > >
                              > > Genoa, Challenge 8.18 oz Dacron, UV Sunbrella
                              > >
                              > > Suncover, Padded Luff, Blue Water Finish, Leech and
                              > >
                              > > Foot Chords, Draft Stripes, Telltale Window, Sail Bag
                              > >
                              > > 1 2,438.00 2,438.00T
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > >
                              > > Amel 39 Ketch Powerhead I Mizzen, Challenge 8.18 oz
                              > >
                              > > Dacron, Blue Water Finish, 4 RBS Battens, Top Batten
                              > >
                              > > Full-Length, 1 Reef, Draft Stripes, Leech Cord,
                              > >
                              > > Telltales, Cunningham, Sail Bag
                              > >
                              > > 1 784.00 784.00T
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > >
                              > > ATN Gale Sail, 100sf 1 975.00 975.00T
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > >
                              > > Hope this helps
                              > >
                              > > --- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ ...>
                              > >
                              > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > You mention the sails are flat and have little shape. That's a trademark
                              > >
                              > > of certain lofts that don't have the ability to produce for the industry and
                              > >
                              > > sell direct. Amel owners that want sails that will perform well in a variety
                              > >
                              > > of conditions are better served by dealing with a real sailmaker.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > You should also know that many of these sails are made with second quality
                              > >
                              > > or other manufacturer rejected cloth. That's why they can sell them so
                              > >
                              > > cheaply. In many cases I see sails like these being sold for less than what
                              > >
                              > > it cost just to buy top quality material.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > From: etske <amel.sharki. charmedii@ ...>
                              > >
                              > > > Subject: [Amel] New Sails for Sharki 104
                              > >
                              > > > To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
                              > >
                              > > > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 2:59 AM
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Dear all,
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Since our sails were still the original ones from 1984 we decided to go
                              > >
                              > > for new ones. After lots of offers we choose Leesails in Hong Kong. They
                              > >
                              > > guaranteed us that they made sails for a Sharki before. We had discussions
                              > >
                              > > about several options I wanted (all headsails with foamstrip and UV strip,
                              > >
                              > > top batten full, original reefing system with steel wire reinforcing, etc.)
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > They all did this and for an amazing price. Mizzen, Main, Storm Jib,
                              > >
                              > > Furling Jib, Furling Genoa II, Furling Genoa I, alltogether for 6020 US
                              > >
                              > > (incl. P&P)!!!!
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > So you try to find the hook. Sails arrived before the agreed date and all
                              > >
                              > > in good order. All sails were tested in the past two weeks and I can't find
                              > >
                              > > anything that's not 100% as agreed upon. Main and Mizzen are both flat
                              > >
                              > > without loosing there shape, GI is huge and has the rounding where it should
                              > >
                              > > be. GII is flat as an high aspect (she does 30 upwind now), Jib we used in a
                              > >
                              > > full gale with main down and mizzen up. After three hours with forces up to
                              > >
                              > > 10 bft all was perfect OK.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
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                              > > >
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                              > > > I would advice if asked to go there if you need new sails.
                              > >
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                              > > >
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                              > > > Cheers and fair winds, Hajé
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                            • etske
                              Dear all, This subject was started by me because I was very proud of my new sails. If I ever had known this would lead to the fierce discussion about integrity
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 13, 2009
                                Dear all,

                                This subject was started by me because I was very proud of my new sails. If I ever had known this would lead to the fierce discussion about integrity I weouldn't have posted as I did.

                                I want to correct something here. I was the one who brought the name of Lee sails forward because of my feelings about there sails. Whatever for the rest of contributors, I wasn't offended by Dave for his reaction. I found his reaction not true nor founded by facts. Dave took my post out of perspective and reacted on what he thought I mend. I believe that was never his intention.

                                Why not get this lead back into what it was mend to be: a discussion about sails. Why are sails for an Amel complicated? It's a straight forward ketch (contest 38, Trintella 4a, Trintella 38K, etc) all have the same idea off layout and hull shape. The unicity of an Amel is in it's unique comfort and sturgeness.

                                So what makes it hard (if so) to design sails for an Amel and why should there be a 'better' sailmaker?

                                I sincerly want also Dave and Jean to respond....

                                And let's all do that in good humor and with an eye for the interest of the others. Sure Dave is a sailmaker and loftowner. So he will have to be carefull not to post easy opinions. From Dave we expect thouroughly rethought opinions and strong arguments about sails. It's his profession.

                                I only know about the law so if any of you want's to break it please contact me ;-)

                                Hajé
                              • Dave_Benjamin
                                Haje, Since you specifically asked for a response... Here s what I ve heard and seen firsthand that make Amel ketches a bit different than the Trintella,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 16, 2009
                                  Haje,

                                  Since you specifically asked for a response...

                                  Here's what I've heard and seen firsthand that make Amel ketches a bit different than the Trintella, Contest and other ketches.

                                  Genoa - Sailmakers who are not familiar with the unique Amel pole system often do not make the sail correctly to work with the poles. The problem is some sailmakers think they know better than Henri, who designed the original sailplan. The LP and clew height should be fairly close to the original for the sail to work with the poles. Other aspects are somewhat conventional. My sail designer is based in NZ. Fortunately we were able to spend time together on my Maramu when he was visiting California.

                                  Mainsail - Nothing challenging about the conventional mains. However on furling mains and mizzens the Amels use unique furling systems. For instance most North American sailmakers have never heard of a Nirvana furler, much less made a sail for one. If the sailmaker is paying attention when he visits the boat it will come out just fine. I spent some time troubleshooting a brand new mizzen built by a reputable east coast loft that would not furl properly. Had he looked a bit more closely at the original mizzen I think he would have been able to avoid the errors. He paid a nearby loft to rebuild the sail to work and the owner was content.

                                  As for my comments being not true or founded by fact I think you should review the thread. If you think using a cloth shunned by practically all reputable sailmakers is a good idea then we'll just agree to disagree. Let us know how they look after 20000 miles. A local catamaran owner here decided to try and save some money on a new main and ordered one from the same loft that built your sail. The sail survived exactly one day. After that it was stretched and could not be trimmed. Admittedly that's not a fair comparison with Amel sails since catamaran sails take much higher loads than similar sized monohulls. But it's a sign that the people who took the order did not know what they were doing.

                                  I am not trying to drum up business as much as I am trying to help people avoid costly mistakes. I think if someone has a good relationship with their local sailmaker they should maintain that relationship.

                                  The old adage of "the bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price" is true for sails as it is for many things.



                                  --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "etske" <amel.sharki.charmedii@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear all,
                                  >
                                  > This subject was started by me because I was very proud of my new sails. If I ever had known this would lead to the fierce discussion about integrity I weouldn't have posted as I did.
                                  >
                                  > I want to correct something here. I was the one who brought the name of Lee sails forward because of my feelings about there sails. Whatever for the rest of contributors, I wasn't offended by Dave for his reaction. I found his reaction not true nor founded by facts. Dave took my post out of perspective and reacted on what he thought I mend. I believe that was never his intention.
                                  >
                                  > Why not get this lead back into what it was mend to be: a discussion about sails. Why are sails for an Amel complicated? It's a straight forward ketch (contest 38, Trintella 4a, Trintella 38K, etc) all have the same idea off layout and hull shape. The unicity of an Amel is in it's unique comfort and sturgeness.
                                  >
                                  > So what makes it hard (if so) to design sails for an Amel and why should there be a 'better' sailmaker?
                                  >
                                  > I sincerly want also Dave and Jean to respond....
                                  >
                                  > And let's all do that in good humor and with an eye for the interest of the others. Sure Dave is a sailmaker and loftowner. So he will have to be carefull not to post easy opinions. From Dave we expect thouroughly rethought opinions and strong arguments about sails. It's his profession.
                                  >
                                  > I only know about the law so if any of you want's to break it please contact me ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Hajé
                                  >
                                • karkauai
                                  Thanks, Dave, Glad you re back. Kent
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 17, 2009
                                    Thanks, Dave, Glad you're back.
                                    Kent

                                    --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Dave_Benjamin" <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Haje,
                                    >
                                    > Since you specifically asked for a response...
                                    >
                                    > Here's what I've heard and seen firsthand that make Amel ketches a bit different than the Trintella, Contest and other ketches.
                                    >
                                    > Genoa - Sailmakers who are not familiar with the unique Amel pole system often do not make the sail correctly to work with the poles. The problem is some sailmakers think they know better than Henri, who designed the original sailplan. The LP and clew height should be fairly close to the original for the sail to work with the poles. Other aspects are somewhat conventional. My sail designer is based in NZ. Fortunately we were able to spend time together on my Maramu when he was visiting California.
                                    >
                                    > Mainsail - Nothing challenging about the conventional mains. However on furling mains and mizzens the Amels use unique furling systems. For instance most North American sailmakers have never heard of a Nirvana furler, much less made a sail for one. If the sailmaker is paying attention when he visits the boat it will come out just fine. I spent some time troubleshooting a brand new mizzen built by a reputable east coast loft that would not furl properly. Had he looked a bit more closely at the original mizzen I think he would have been able to avoid the errors. He paid a nearby loft to rebuild the sail to work and the owner was content.
                                    >
                                    > As for my comments being not true or founded by fact I think you should review the thread. If you think using a cloth shunned by practically all reputable sailmakers is a good idea then we'll just agree to disagree. Let us know how they look after 20000 miles. A local catamaran owner here decided to try and save some money on a new main and ordered one from the same loft that built your sail. The sail survived exactly one day. After that it was stretched and could not be trimmed. Admittedly that's not a fair comparison with Amel sails since catamaran sails take much higher loads than similar sized monohulls. But it's a sign that the people who took the order did not know what they were doing.
                                    >
                                    > I am not trying to drum up business as much as I am trying to help people avoid costly mistakes. I think if someone has a good relationship with their local sailmaker they should maintain that relationship.
                                    >
                                    > The old adage of "the bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price" is true for sails as it is for many things.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "etske" <amel.sharki.charmedii@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear all,
                                    > >
                                    > > This subject was started by me because I was very proud of my new sails. If I ever had known this would lead to the fierce discussion about integrity I weouldn't have posted as I did.
                                    > >
                                    > > I want to correct something here. I was the one who brought the name of Lee sails forward because of my feelings about there sails. Whatever for the rest of contributors, I wasn't offended by Dave for his reaction. I found his reaction not true nor founded by facts. Dave took my post out of perspective and reacted on what he thought I mend. I believe that was never his intention.
                                    > >
                                    > > Why not get this lead back into what it was mend to be: a discussion about sails. Why are sails for an Amel complicated? It's a straight forward ketch (contest 38, Trintella 4a, Trintella 38K, etc) all have the same idea off layout and hull shape. The unicity of an Amel is in it's unique comfort and sturgeness.
                                    > >
                                    > > So what makes it hard (if so) to design sails for an Amel and why should there be a 'better' sailmaker?
                                    > >
                                    > > I sincerly want also Dave and Jean to respond....
                                    > >
                                    > > And let's all do that in good humor and with an eye for the interest of the others. Sure Dave is a sailmaker and loftowner. So he will have to be carefull not to post easy opinions. From Dave we expect thouroughly rethought opinions and strong arguments about sails. It's his profession.
                                    > >
                                    > > I only know about the law so if any of you want's to break it please contact me ;-)
                                    > >
                                    > > Hajé
                                    > >
                                    >
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