Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ambaa-L] Re: Ambaa's protection - Shocked

Expand Messages
  • gautham karthik
    Sri gurubhyo namaha.     If this is what bhoja and other kings who fought against muslim onslaught thought we will not be discussing all these devotional
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Sri gurubhyo namaha.
       
       >If this is what bhoja and other kings who fought against muslim onslaught thought we will not be discussing all these devotional texts now in this forum, for there would be no Hinduism left.>
       
      This defies any logic in terming ours as sanAtana dharmA. If such a time will come where there would be no Hinduism left, the unbroken continuity of the scriptures will be challenged.
       
      >Dharma exists now because those that defended dharma did not think on the lines above. They did not dream that dharma will continue to exist. They made it exist by their actions i.e. by countering the onslaught and by taking active steps to preserve it.>
       
      To imagine dharma exists or can exist only through the active measures of some humans to preserve it is quite egotistical. Dharma exists eternally. Perhaps the degree of its impact in the everday activities of the world changes with the passage of the epochs (viz.the four legs of dharma being reduced to one by the advent of kali etc). But to doubt that dharma will continue to exist is childish and is contrary to all that is said in the scriptures - re the absolute nature of dharma.
       
      >The statment makes me sick and I am shocked to see this. What is the leela of Ambaa? Mass conversions? So teh inference from this is that Ambaa wanted those people to convert to christianity or get slaughtered my muslims? Do you even know what are you talking about?

      So by this logic Ambaa approves conversion to Christianity? Then why dont we all get converted now itself?>
       
      This seems to be fairly biased and out of context when you take ganapathy ji's or paramAcharyA's words out of context. If the entire and eternally repeated appearance and dissolution of the world systems are all seen to be the play of the supreme devi, then why can everything in it not be Her play?? What goes to say there cannot be any conversions or pains and discomforts in the play?Her play is not limited to Mass conversions, and neither is it obsessed with trikAla sandhyAvandanA. She is all encompassing and thus All is Her play.There is no inference here that Amba wants anyone to get converted or die at the hand of muslims. AmbA does not want anything from anyone. If we do not accept the truth that the supreme is unconditioned and unbiased with regard to the creation, then it leaves us in a place where our supreme creator has the flaws of nishkArunyA etc. That as all of us know is not true. ''annEna atirOhatI'' Purusha suktam. This world experience is
      a result of each our delusions and the karma performed under the influence of such delusion. Those suffering do not suffer because amba wants them to and neither are those who are enjoying comforts doing so because amba wants them to. Further, there is nothing in this stream of thought to suggest that all of us need to be converted as you suggest sarcastically. We see people die everyday, so do we just say that as death happens amba approves death so lets all just die rightaway?
       
      >Your mahA svAmi is totally wrong then. You dont need to be genius to see why he is wrong. Can we use our brains a little here other than just say mahAsvAmi said this or that?

      So by this logic they reach brahma lokam if they foe example kill a Hindu sanyasi i.e. Laxmananda Saraswati?>
       
      Please see what ganapathyji has said carefully again. Not all christians are out there to convert and kill hindus. And I dont for a moment think that a true follower of christ (not just christian by birth) will kill.
       
       
      Please do not take this post as something that encourages conversions or murder in the name of god. I am a Brahmin and quite happy and content being one. But we have to evaluate a few things that question our own deepest beliefs in proper light and not with the sensationalist/emotive angle. Do you really believe that christians and muslims and others out side of the varnA system are not children of the same amba we worship? Do you think the maximum scope of something which is known as sanatana and that which speaks in cosmic terms is limited to the tiny land mass of India and her peoples? Do you think that if someone born muslim and thus believing in a different god/creator to you and me is outside the scope of ambas radar? The elders say ' sarva darshanA nanindhA' - Kalpasutra. There is no need for you and me to go and embrace another religion or method, but once you know what is true for you there is no virtue in decrying or slandering what is someone
      else's path.
       
      I have been a silent observer (apart from a few posts here and there) of this group. I did not actually want to interfere in this thread either - but I could not refrain this time. Not just in this forum, but in many other places too there seems to be a kind of black and white sort of attitude to other religions etc. Not all christians and bad, not all hindus are good, and not all muslims have bombs strapped to their stomachs. If only things were so simple! If one felt that the mass conversions etc were a great onslaught to our dharma, then we have to take a mature look at it - something deeper than the fire brand/tabloid kind of response to it. Why do the conversions happen?What are the root causes? Surely its not a problem caused only because of the missionaries alone? What have we hindus done to contribute to it? What can we do constructively to address those flaws?I could go on endlessly. If one's sAdhanA and guru does not remove his/her
      bias,anger,hate etc then what is the point of any of it?
       
      Every jivA is in the pursuit of the same thing - sukhA or happiness. Every mother experienced intense pain in bringing the child from within her womb into the world. Though the painting is one composed of many colours and forms it is all on the same wall.
       
      I hope that this post has not come across as one in defence of conversions and I also hope that is has not offended anyone with intent to take offence;) I am also sure that a topic so capable of pushing the wrong buttons like the one here will bring the heat of all the firebrand folk straight to my door, but then again I dont do this too often!
       
      Always at the feet of my guru
       
      a concerned jiva.
    • Satish
      ...
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com, gautham karthik <manalianamika@...> wrote:

        <<This defies any logic in terming ours as sanAtana dharmA. If such a time will
        come where there would be no Hinduism left, the unbroken continuity of the
        scriptures will be challenged.>>

        That is why it is being said that those forces which are intent on eradicating our traditions should be contained. Traditions dont live in books. It lives in the people who practice them. Among many other things which can hamper this unbroken continuity,making people abandoning the tradition is one such. And traditions are abandoned when one changes religion.

        <<To imagine dharma exists or can exist only through the active measures of some
        humans to preserve it is quite egotistical. Dharma exists eternally. Perhaps the
        degree of its impact in the everday activities of the world changes with the
        passage of the epochs (viz.the four legs of dharma being reduced to one by the
        advent of kali etc). But to doubt that dharma will continue to exist is childish
        and is contrary to all that is said in the scriptures - re the absolute nature
        of dharma.>>

        It is clear that you are going by a higher definition of dharma. No problem with that. Ever heard the sentence "dharmo rakShati rakShitaH"? Dharma protects those who protect it.
        It is clear that dharma(among other higher things) is something that needs to be protected. This in turns means that it requires human action to preserve it, no? This shows that your first and last sentences in the above passage are wrong.

        <<This seems to be fairly biased and out of context when you take ganapathy ji's
        or paramAcharyA's words out of context. If the entire and eternally repeated
        appearance and dissolution of the world systems are all seen to be the play of
        the supreme devi, then why can everything in it not be Her play??>>

        Nope. He said all is Amba-s leela including the onslaught on Hinduism.
        I objected not to the fact that it is nature's way. My objection is to the fact that a destructive onslaught on Hinduism is shrugged off(yes he explicitly said we need not be concerned with that) as nature's play.

        If you near and dear ones are at the point of getting slaughtered what do you do? Just say it is Amba's play? It is true that it is nature's play but it would be inappropriate on your part to say to yourself, " I should not be too concerned..it is after all Ambaa's will" instead of fighting with the aggressors

        <<She is all encompassing and thus All is Her play.There is no
        inference here that Amba wants anyone to get converted or die at the hand of
        muslims. >>

        I already explained my position on this above

        <<AmbA does not want anything from anyone. >>

        Yes it doesnt need anything from Humans.. So..?

        <<Those suffering do not suffer because amba wants them to and
        neither are those who are enjoying comforts doing so because amba wants them to.
        Further, there is nothing in this stream of thought to suggest that all of us
        need to be converted as you suggest sarcastically. We see people die everyday,
        so do we just say that as death happens amba approves death so lets all just die
        rightaway?>>

        I already explained the context as to why I said that. To repeat.. it is the situation where ones loved ones are at the point of getting slaughtered and he/she simply says "This is Amba's leela"

        It is correct from a philosohhical standpoint. No problem. But it is wrong to say it from a dhArmic and a sociological point of view. This is what I was hitting at.

        <<Please see what ganapathyji has said carefully again. Not all christians are out
        there to convert and kill hindus.>>

        Even a child will understand this. What makes you think it never occured to me or others? Why are we concerned with those that dont hurt us? They lead their lives. Our concern is with those among them who seek to make our traditions extinct.

        <<And I dont for a moment think that a true follower of christ (not just christian by birth) will kill.>>

        The Spanish Inquisition, the hundreds of thousands of deaths in the crusades, the spanish slaughter of native South Americans, the killing of south american infants by dashing them aginst the wall,
        the burning of witches and many other mass murders related to christianity were inspired by quotes from the bible. Are you so blind to all this? I know there is also a political angle to some of these but that does not mean the absence of religious angle.

        <<Do you really believe that christians and muslims and others out side of the varnA system are not children
        of the same amba we worship? Do you think the maximum scope of something which
        is known as sanatana and that which speaks in cosmic terms is limited to the
        tiny land mass of India and her peoples? Do you think that if someone born
        muslim and thus believing in a different god/creator to you and me is outside
        the scope of ambas radar? >>

        The answer to all your questions is no. Hope that will clarify a lot of --your bias--.
        Which means.. Yes I consider all humans(including muslims and christians) as children of devI.. and I do not consider sanAtana dharma as limited to India
        and ofcourse muslims and christians are definitely on Amba's so called radar :)

        This does not mean you let come them and make our traditions extinct. Nor does it mean that you should say it is Amba's leela and just watch with folded hands

        <<The elders say ' sarva darshanA nanindhA'
        - Kalpasutra. There is no need for you and me to go and embrace another religion
        or method, but once you know what is true for you there is no virtue in decrying
        or slandering what is someone else's path.>>

        You are off the mark on this one. sarva darshanAnindA applies to various darshana-s within the Hindu fold including bauddha and jaina. Not for christianity and islam simply because they are not darshana-s

        <<Not all christians and bad, not all hindus are good, and not all muslims
        have bombs strapped to their stomachs. >>

        What makes you think me or others do not know this? Most(not all) of the dialogues in your post are just naive like this one.
        I have a few Christian friends whom I respect a lot...

        <<If one felt that the mass conversions etc were a great onslaught to our dharma, then we have to take a mature look at it - something deeper than the fire brand/tabloid kind of response to it. Why do the conversions happen?What are the root causes?
        Surely its not a problem caused only because of the missionaries alone? What
        have we hindus done to contribute to it? What can we do constructively to
        address those flaws?>>

        Many others already did this research as to the why of this problem. They matched with my observations and my own studies
        Please go familiarise yourself with that. Conversion has been a problem in central Asia and europe once ..long back when Christianity wasnt popular.It is still a problem outside India i.e.in many other nations. It doesnt mean there is a problem in all these nations.
        It points to evidence that the evangelists are bent of adding more people to their faith.. which means reducing people in
        other faiths.. this is another way of saying destroying that other faith whether it be Hinduism of the celtic, druidic or any other traditions. Because a tradition ceases to be whenever no one practices it...

        Do you see the problem? You are getting the wrong inferences.

        << If one's sAdhanA and guru does not remove his/her bias,anger,hate etc then what is the point of any of it?>>

        What you did not, in your so called broad-mindedness grasp is...defending one's traditions from others does not require hate.
        All it takes is a concern for one's tradition. I hope it is not so hard for you to understand this simple fact.
        There is no need to hate the Christians or Muslims. From when is condemning inhuman/barbaric actions of others a hateful act?

        <<I hope that this post has not come across as one in defence of conversions and I
        also hope that is has not offended anyone with intent to take offence;)>>

        I for one did not see the post as a defence against conversions and I am certainly not offended. What I have observed from your post is that you view of tradition , dharma, conversion are short sighted. That is all I have observed in this post. A true understanding
        of how socities interact, knowledge of the history of christianity & Islam is severely lacking. You could improve on that.

        dharmo rakShati rakShitaH!
      • gautham karthik
        Sri gurubhyo namaha.   First of all, I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time and more importantly a contained stance to reply to my post. Many
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Sri gurubhyo namaha.
           
          First of all, I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time and more importantly a contained stance to reply to my post. Many thanks!
           
          >Among many other things which can hamper this
          unbroken continuity,making people abandoning the tradition is one such. And
          traditions are abandoned when one changes religion.>
           
          I fully aggree. I would also like to point out (I am not assuming here that you do not know it already, but merely stating it here again) that traditions are abandoned due to a lot of factors apart from changing religion. The seeds of conversion are sown way more covertly these days as against the inquisition style. I would imagine the effect of television, electronic media like the internet, etc etc all to be factors that result in the traditions being abandoned. Besides, changing attitudes, different world view etc are all factors. In the days of my grandfather it was perfectly normal for him (he was a head master of a school) to arrive late to work on amavasyas etc after performing the tarpanas. Todays children would think twice before going to school or college with their viboothi pattai. Trikala sandhyavandana etc seem to be chores and old fashioned and pointless excercises steeped in superstition to the youth of today - is that a result of the
          missionaries converting people forcibly or is it their own ignorance of the validity of the vedic truth? More often than not, these traditions are abandoned or diluted in the pursuit of a 'successful' career or such.Traditions are abandoned when we have chosen to work in a multitude of fields rather than stick to the varna based proffessions. So a brahmin of today (though not converted to christianity or the like) is often following nothing of his/her dharma.

          >Ever heard the sentence "dharmo rakShati rakShitaH"? Dharma protects those
          who protect it.
          It is clear that dharma(among other higher things) is something that needs to be
          protected. This in turns means that it requires human action to preserve it, no?>
           
          Being a life long follower of paramAcharyA, I am well accquainted with the sentence of '' dharmo rakShati rakShitaH'' .Though I have perhaps understood the action of persuing my own dharmA (swadharma) to the best of my ability to be the way to protect dharma. I.E. observing the nitya and naimitta karmAs, swashAka adhyayanA etc.
           
          >The Spanish Inquisition, the hundreds of thousands of deaths in the crusades,
          the spanish slaughter of native South Americans, the killing of south american
          infants by dashing them aginst the wall,
          the burning of witches and many other mass murders related to christianity were
          inspired by quotes from the bible. Are you so blind to all this? I know there is
          also a political angle to some of these but that does not mean the absence of
          religious angle.>
           
          No. I am not so blind. Living in Ireland for over 14 years and generally having my eyes open, I can see ample instances in history (and even in the now) where there is a severe religious angle to it. But I hope we as a whole can understand from history rather than repeat the same brutality, albeit in a different context.
           
          >You are off the mark on this one. sarva darshanAnindA applies to various
          darshana-s within the Hindu fold including bauddha and jaina. Not for
          christianity and islam simply because they are not darshana-s>
           
          Perhaps. I am not erudite enough to argue that one. I simply understand that to mean any method or path that enable one to realise the supreme as a darshana. As to each person their own path is as important as mine is to me.
           
          >What makes you think me or others do not know this? Most(not all) of the
          dialogues in your post are just naive like this one.
          I have a few Christian friends whom I respect a lot...>
           
          I do not mean to question your understanding of the situation. When you mention that the christians are converting etc etc, it just comes across as generalising the whole lot, thats all.
           
          >What you did not, in your so called broad-mindedness grasp is...defending one's
          traditions from others does not require hate.
          All it takes is a concern for one's tradition. I hope it is not so hard for you
          to understand this simple fact.
          There is no need to hate the Christians or Muslims. From when is condemning
          inhuman/barbaric actions of others a hateful act?>
           
          Noted. It is not the condemning of inhuman/barbaric actions of others that is a hateful act. I would also be one to defend my tradition if challenged - most certainly. What I would like to not loose sight of though is the fact that others have also their traditions which for them would be as valid as mine is to me.
           
          >I for one did not see the post as a defence against conversions and I am
          certainly not offended. What I have observed from your post is that you view of
          tradition , dharma, conversion are short sighted. That is all I have observed in
          this post. A true understanding
          of how socities interact, knowledge of the history of christianity & Islam is
          severely lacking. You could improve on that.>
           
          I am glad at least my intentions have come across clearly and it has caused you no offence. I will try and work on my understanding of tradition,dharma and conversion, not to forget the history of christianity and Islam!!:)
           
          sadgurupAdukA jayathI.








          --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Satish <satisharigela@...> wrote:


          From: Satish <satisharigela@...>
          Subject: [ambaa-L] Re: Ambaa's protection - Shocked
          To: ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 4:07 PM
        • Satish
          Ok. To all those who are thinking this is outside list scope will you be quiet for sometime please?? Or do you have a blind belief(which is so common) that the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Ok. To all those who are thinking this is outside list scope will you be quiet for sometime please??
            Or do you have a blind belief(which is so common) that the list policies are apauruSheya :-))
            Do you realize I carry on this discussion somewhat unwillingly and wish to end it at the earliest?


            Take note of the last few lines towards the end of the post


            Onto discussion..

            --- In ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com, gautham karthik <manalianamika@...> wrote:
            >  
            > >Among many other things which can hamper this
            > unbroken continuity,making people abandoning the tradition is one such. And
            > traditions are abandoned when one changes religion.>
            >  
            > is that a result of the
            > missionaries converting people forcibly or is it their own >ignorance of the validity of the vedic truth? More often than not, >these traditions are abandoned or diluted in the pursuit of >a 'successful' career or such.

            Yeah. I said something similar in a comment yesterday I think.
            Though I do not disagree with you i will add that:
            Even though diluted, they remain somewhat Hindu albeit marginally. I used to have a brahmin friend who does not peform anything, not beleive in devata-s, rituals etc but if a christian tries to convert he would argue for Hindusim. There are many people like these.

            Conversion is altogether a different game. Sometimes new converts are filled with a zeal and actively try to prevent family members who chose to remain Hindu. Like the example of the tamil son who converted and prevented his mother from doing pooja-s.

            So you see the difference?

            > Being a life long follower of paramAcharyA, I am well accquainted >with the sentence of '' dharmo rakShati rakShitaH'' .Though I have >perhaps understood the action of persuing my own dharmA (swadharma) >to the best of my ability to be the way to protect dharma. I.E. >observing the nitya and naimitta karmAs, swashAka adhyayanA etc.

            My understanding is that it has two parts. First part is what you have said. Second is towards society. As brAhmana for example I think you are also required to teach. So it extends beyond the individual.

            > But I hope we as a whole can understand from history rather than >repeat the same brutality, albeit in a different context.

            Dont tell me you thought it looked like I am about to start some Hindu inquisition.. :-) What do I sound like??

            > Perhaps. I am not erudite enough to argue that one. I simply >understand that to mean any method or path that enable one to >realise the supreme as a darshana. As to each person their own path >is as important as mine is to me.

            To my knowledge there arent any sanskrit works treating these religions as darshana-s and refuting them. They just dont fit anywhere. There is a possibility that there are such works but as we see, they are not studied seriously even if they exist.
             
            > I do not mean to question your understanding of the situation. When >you mention that the christians are converting etc etc, it just >comes across as generalising the whole lot, thats all.

            Well, glad to see that it is clear now.

            > Noted. It is not the condemning of inhuman/barbaric actions of >others that is a hateful act. I would also be one to defend my >tradition if challenged - most certainly. What I would like to not >loose sight of though is the fact that others have also their >traditions which for them would be as valid as mine is to me.

            Here is the tricky part. So if it is my christian tradition/or belief(i.e. my god-yehovah says so) that your tradition should not exist, will you let me follow my tradition(since in you rown words my tradition is valid for me)?

            > I am glad at least my intentions have come across clearly and it >has caused you no offence. I will try and work on my understanding >of tradition,dharma and conversion, not to forget the history of >christianity and Islam!!:)

            Not as bad as you came across in the first post :)


            To others:
            What is objective of this thread? Why are we(I am) spending this much time even though it is outside the scope of this list?

            Some members seem to beleive that the attacks on Hinduism are not that much of a concern. It was even projected(not directly said) that somehow all this is will be miraculously taken care of, and nothing needs to be done. History has shown that quite a few civilizations were wiped out because of such line of thought. Hence this concern and small attempt to show the danger in such thinking to this limited group of people. The more people we rid of such thinking the more we are aware. Sometimes just being alert, being well aware and understanding well the scope and background of a threat - in itself mitigates it.
            I want to say more on this and will stop...There are already people howling about this whole thread being outside list scope.

            You think your texts will grow hands and legs to save your traditions?? Sigh!
          • S Sangaranarayanan
            Dear Athmabandu, Can any one help me the english explanatory note on andhyeshti (I need word by word explanation)which has almost been forgotton even by devi
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Athmabandu,



              Can any one help me the english explanatory note on "andhyeshti" (I need word by word explanation)which has almost been forgotton even by devi upasakas. I would like to bring out a free publication for distribution to every devi upasaka in this regard. I shall have it published in sanskrit/tamil and english to start with.

              Regards,

              S.SHANGARANARAYANAN








              _________________________________________________________________
              More than messages�check out the rest of the Windows Live�.
              http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • rohit kumtha
              Dear All,  I have been reading these posts and I am not really surprised at the thoughts expressed by some of the very learned members here.  This kind of
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear All,
                 I have been reading these posts and I am not really surprised at the thoughts expressed by some of the very learned members here.  This kind of thinking seems to be the general pattern of almost all our Hindu brethren.  We seem to live in a different and impracticle world of our own when it comes to our religion.  Neither do we understand our own history of the near past and neither do we understand the history of other civilizations and religions which are now exist only in books.

                I ask you all in the same way as Satish has,  have you considered what would have been the situation today if

                1) Vidyaranya Swami had remained secluded and continued with his tapas in some cave, instead of inspiring Harihara raya and Bukkaraya to estabilish the Vijayanagar Empire.

                2) Swami Ramdas had remained in his Ram bhakti singing abhangs only , instead of helping Shivaji to build his Hindavi Swaraj?

                Just two examples , but they should suffice to enlighten us.  

                Dharma does not exist in books or mere sayings of great men.  Dharma will only exisit in action, in the actual performance of Dharma. Without "achar" no Dharma will ever exist. This is the plain and simple fact. If there are no Hindus to pactise Hindusim,  how will it exisit?

                Relying on some avatars to save our Dharma, relying on Bhagavan /Amba etc to save us and our religion,  is nothing but abdication of our responsibilty towards our Dharma.  If we do not pro actively make efforts to preserve and propogate our way of life, who will? Why should Bhagavan/Amba do it?

                The entire creation and all that happens in it , is Ambaa's leela, is entirely correct, but then the defending ,protecting and preserving our faith and traditions and keeping them vibrant and robust is also Amba's leela. 

                Having given us this great Sanatan Vedic Dharma , She expects us to preserve and protect it , add to it and pass it down to our further generations. It is our duty to do so.  What kind of children of Ambaa are we, if we cannot carry out Her wishes? 

                No Mother likes her children to be cowards and keep going back to her crying.  Dont we see this in our lives? Likewise, I am sure our Mother does also not appreaciate our cowardice, falling back on Her, dependence  upon Her and worse, calling this dependence and cowardice Bhakti. 

                We Hindus need to understand and realise quickly, that we are the custodians of our Dharma and being so, are necessarily the guardians of the same.  No one is going to protect our Dharma, no foreigner, no muslim, no christian, no anybody, and above all not Ambaa.     If we dont, nobody will!

                 There is  great truth in the statement: "dharmo rakshati rakshitah".  Dharma will protect us only if  protected, in the first place.  

                I do not have even an iota of knowledge, which some of the very learned members of this group have. But I know this for sure, Our Dharma lives in us and  manifests in our "achar and vichar" , it does not live in texts, and scriptures and neither will all the texts and scriptures protect it.  No amount of perverted logic or sophistry is going to convince me otherwise.

                Shrug off this "chalta hai " attitude in respect of our Dharma.  Our Sanatan Dharma  is just too valuable , and does not merit this attitude.

                Regards
                Rohit

                  

                     



                    




                ________________________________
                From: Satish <satisharigela@...>
                To: ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, 6 June, 2009 12:38:45 AM
                Subject: [ambaa-L] Re: Ambaa's protection - Shocked





                Ok. To all those who are thinking this is outside list scope will you be quiet for sometime please??
                Or do you have a blind belief(which is so common) that the list policies are apauruSheya :-))
                Do you realize I carry on this discussion somewhat unwillingly and wish to end it at the earliest?

                Take note of the last few lines towards the end of the post

                Onto discussion..

                --- In ambaa-l@yahoogroups .com, gautham karthik <manalianamika@ ...> wrote:
                >  
                > >Among many other things which can hamper this
                > unbroken continuity,making people abandoning the tradition is one such. And
                > traditions are abandoned when one changes religion.>
                >  
                > is that a result of the
                > missionaries converting people forcibly or is it their own >ignorance of the validity of the vedic truth? More often than not, >these traditions are abandoned or diluted in the pursuit of >a 'successful' career or such.

                Yeah. I said something similar in a comment yesterday I think.
                Though I do not disagree with you i will add that:
                Even though diluted, they remain somewhat Hindu albeit marginally. I used to have a brahmin friend who does not peform anything, not beleive in devata-s, rituals etc but if a christian tries to convert he would argue for Hindusim. There are many people like these.

                Conversion is altogether a different game. Sometimes new converts are filled with a zeal and actively try to prevent family members who chose to remain Hindu. Like the example of the tamil son who converted and prevented his mother from doing pooja-s.

                So you see the difference?

                > Being a life long follower of paramAcharyA, I am well accquainted >with the sentence of '' dharmo rakShati rakShitaH'' .Though I have >perhaps understood the action of persuing my own dharmA (swadharma) >to the best of my ability to be the way to protect dharma. I.E. >observing the nitya and naimitta karmAs, swashAka adhyayanA etc.

                My understanding is that it has two parts. First part is what you have said. Second is towards society. As brAhmana for example I think you are also required to teach. So it extends beyond the individual.

                > But I hope we as a whole can understand from history rather than >repeat the same brutality, albeit in a different context.

                Dont tell me you thought it looked like I am about to start some Hindu inquisition. . :-) What do I sound like??

                > Perhaps. I am not erudite enough to argue that one.. I simply >understand that to mean any method or path that enable one to >realise the supreme as a darshana. As to each person their own path >is as important as mine is to me.

                To my knowledge there arent any sanskrit works treating these religions as darshana-s and refuting them. They just dont fit anywhere. There is a possibility that there are such works but as we see, they are not studied seriously even if they exist.
                 
                > I do not mean to question your understanding of the situation. When >you mention that the christians are converting etc etc, it just >comes across as generalising the whole lot, thats all.

                Well, glad to see that it is clear now.

                > Noted. It is not the condemning of inhuman/barbaric actions of >others that is a hateful act. I would also be one to defend my >tradition if challenged - most certainly. What I would like to not >loose sight of though is the fact that others have also their >traditions which for them would be as valid as mine is to me.

                Here is the tricky part. So if it is my christian tradition/or belief(i.e. my god-yehovah says so) that your tradition should not exist, will you let me follow my tradition(since in you rown words my tradition is valid for me)?

                > I am glad at least my intentions have come across clearly and it >has caused you no offence. I will try and work on my understanding >of tradition,dharma and conversion, not to forget the history of >christianity and Islam!!:)

                Not as bad as you came across in the first post :)

                To others:
                What is objective of this thread? Why are we(I am) spending this much time even though it is outside the scope of this list?

                Some members seem to beleive that the attacks on Hinduism are not that much of a concern. It was even projected(not directly said) that somehow all this is will be miraculously taken care of, and nothing needs to be done. History has shown that quite a few civilizations were wiped out because of such line of thought. Hence this concern and small attempt to show the danger in such thinking to this limited group of people. The more people we rid of such thinking the more we are aware. Sometimes just being alert, being well aware and understanding well the scope and background of a threat - in itself mitigates it.
                I want to say more on this and will stop...There are already people howling about this whole thread being outside list scope.

                You think your texts will grow hands and legs to save your traditions?? Sigh!





                Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • rajita_rajvasishth
                Satish s clarity in face of the confusion displayed by so many here should be congratulated. People make many logical errors. The dharma does not have God .
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Satish's clarity in face of the confusion displayed by so many here should be congratulated. People make many logical errors. The dharma does not have "God". This is a unique term to Abrahmic religions. Abrahmic religions have no parallels to dharma. Christism and Islam have only brought misery to the world have absolutely nothing positive in them. This is because they combine the basic monotheism of Abrahmism with the murderous urge towards others. These ideologies should not confused their followers -- it is the mistake of confusing software for hardware.
                  We only have brahman, atman, deva/devI and some people might believe in a concept of Ishvara. It is a huge misunderstanding to think brahman and god are the same. The Hindus who think Christism or Muhammadi are like our dharma do not understand those religions. Rather than lecturing other Hindu about same-same-vAda about them they should spend time reading from primary sources of those religions.

                  Another confusion is between bhakti mArga, mantra mArga and j~nAna mArga. Using mantra mArga is not like bhakti marga. So it is wrong to confuse using a mantra according to mantramArga with a stuti on the same devatA in bhakti mArga. One cannot interchange for the other. Having blind bhakti is not an appropriate qualification for a person to participate in mantra mArga. So statements like "mAtA's protection will be available for all" will hold in bhakti mArga but not in mantramArga. Common people in India have become oriented toward bhakti mArga but most of them do not even understand the basics of mantra mArga to be qualified to used. Not all gurus who give mantras are even conversant in the whole package of mantra mArga called mantra-shAstra. It is from people who known that you will get a better a understanding of the dharma because mImAmsa is called the root of dharma. Yes mantra mArga looks fascinating from outside but is a lot of hard work to get it working.

                  That mercury guru reported in an earlier post seems to be suffering from mercury poisoning. In modern India some yogis have died while playing with mercury. We must take any claim of doing rasastambhana these days skeptically. It is good to avoid all commercial Paradalingas because they appear fakes. I also know of an elderly lady in India who took some Rasas from a "Siddha" and go mercury poisoning.
                  Rajita
                • sriram
                  dear rohit, Namaste. A sigh of relief from you! with regards, sriram
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    dear rohit,

                    Namaste. A sigh of relief from you!

                    with regards,
                    sriram

                    --- In ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com, rohit kumtha <rohitkumtha@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear All,
                    >  I have been reading these posts and I am not really surprised at the thoughts expressed by some of the very learned members here.  This kind of thinking seems to be the general pattern of almost all our Hindu brethren.  We seem to live in a different and impracticle world of our own when it comes to our religion.  Neither do we understand our own history of the near past and neither do we understand the history of other civilizations and religions which are now exist only in books.
                    >
                    > I ask you all in the same way as Satish has,  have you considered what would have been the situation today if
                    >
                    > 1) Vidyaranya Swami had remained secluded and continued with his tapas in some cave, instead of inspiring Harihara raya and Bukkaraya to estabilish the Vijayanagar Empire.
                    >
                    > 2) Swami Ramdas had remained in his Ram bhakti singing abhangs only , instead of helping Shivaji to build his Hindavi Swaraj?
                    >
                    > Just two examples , but they should suffice to enlighten us.  
                    >
                    > Dharma does not exist in books or mere sayings of great men.  Dharma will only exisit in action, in the actual performance of Dharma. Without "achar" no Dharma will ever exist. This is the plain and simple fact. If there are no Hindus to pactise Hindusim,  how will it exisit?
                    >
                    > Relying on some avatars to save our Dharma, relying on Bhagavan /Amba etc to save us and our religion,  is nothing but abdication of our responsibilty towards our Dharma.  If we do not pro actively make efforts to preserve and propogate our way of life, who will? Why should Bhagavan/Amba do it?
                    >
                    > The entire creation and all that happens in it , is Ambaa's leela, is entirely correct, but then the defending ,protecting and preserving our faith and traditions and keeping them vibrant and robust is also Amba's leela. 
                    >
                    > Having given us this great Sanatan Vedic Dharma , She expects us to preserve and protect it , add to it and pass it down to our further generations. It is our duty to do so.  What kind of children of Ambaa are we, if we cannot carry out Her wishes? 
                    >
                    > No Mother likes her children to be cowards and keep going back to her crying.  Dont we see this in our lives? Likewise, I am sure our Mother does also not appreaciate our cowardice, falling back on Her, dependence  upon Her and worse, calling this dependence and cowardice Bhakti. 
                    >
                    > We Hindus need to understand and realise quickly, that we are the custodians of our Dharma and being so, are necessarily the guardians of the same.  No one is going to protect our Dharma, no foreigner, no muslim, no christian, no anybody, and above all not Ambaa.     If we dont, nobody will!
                    >
                    >  There is  great truth in the statement: "dharmo rakshati rakshitah".  Dharma will protect us only if  protected, in the first place.  
                    >
                    > I do not have even an iota of knowledge, which some of the very learned members of this group have. But I know this for sure, Our Dharma lives in us and  manifests in our "achar and vichar" , it does not live in texts, and scriptures and neither will all the texts and scriptures protect it.  No amount of perverted logic or sophistry is going to convince me otherwise.
                    >
                    > Shrug off this "chalta hai " attitude in respect of our Dharma.  Our Sanatan Dharma  is just too valuable , and does not merit this attitude.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Rohit
                    >
                    >   
                    >
                    >      
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >     
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Satish <satisharigela@...>
                    > To: ambaa-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Saturday, 6 June, 2009 12:38:45 AM
                    > Subject: [ambaa-L] Re: Ambaa's protection - Shocked
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ok. To all those who are thinking this is outside list scope will you be quiet for sometime please??
                    > Or do you have a blind belief(which is so common) that the list policies are apauruSheya :-))
                    > Do you realize I carry on this discussion somewhat unwillingly and wish to end it at the earliest?
                    >
                    > Take note of the last few lines towards the end of the post
                    >
                    > Onto discussion..
                    >
                    > --- In ambaa-l@yahoogroups .com, gautham karthik <manalianamika@ ...> wrote:
                    > >  
                    > > >Among many other things which can hamper this
                    > > unbroken continuity,making people abandoning the tradition is one such. And
                    > > traditions are abandoned when one changes religion.>
                    > >  
                    > > is that a result of the
                    > > missionaries converting people forcibly or is it their own >ignorance of the validity of the vedic truth? More often than not, >these traditions are abandoned or diluted in the pursuit of >a 'successful' career or such.
                    >
                    > Yeah. I said something similar in a comment yesterday I think.
                    > Though I do not disagree with you i will add that:
                    > Even though diluted, they remain somewhat Hindu albeit marginally. I used to have a brahmin friend who does not peform anything, not beleive in devata-s, rituals etc but if a christian tries to convert he would argue for Hindusim. There are many people like these.
                    >
                    > Conversion is altogether a different game. Sometimes new converts are filled with a zeal and actively try to prevent family members who chose to remain Hindu. Like the example of the tamil son who converted and prevented his mother from doing pooja-s.
                    >
                    > So you see the difference?
                    >
                    > > Being a life long follower of paramAcharyA, I am well accquainted >with the sentence of '' dharmo rakShati rakShitaH'' .Though I have >perhaps understood the action of persuing my own dharmA (swadharma) >to the best of my ability to be the way to protect dharma. I.E. >observing the nitya and naimitta karmAs, swashAka adhyayanA etc.
                    >
                    > My understanding is that it has two parts. First part is what you have said. Second is towards society. As brAhmana for example I think you are also required to teach. So it extends beyond the individual.
                    >
                    > > But I hope we as a whole can understand from history rather than >repeat the same brutality, albeit in a different context.
                    >
                    > Dont tell me you thought it looked like I am about to start some Hindu inquisition. . :-) What do I sound like??
                    >
                    > > Perhaps. I am not erudite enough to argue that one.. I simply >understand that to mean any method or path that enable one to >realise the supreme as a darshana. As to each person their own path >is as important as mine is to me.
                    >
                    > To my knowledge there arent any sanskrit works treating these religions as darshana-s and refuting them. They just dont fit anywhere. There is a possibility that there are such works but as we see, they are not studied seriously even if they exist.
                    >  
                    > > I do not mean to question your understanding of the situation. When >you mention that the christians are converting etc etc, it just >comes across as generalising the whole lot, thats all.
                    >
                    > Well, glad to see that it is clear now.
                    >
                    > > Noted. It is not the condemning of inhuman/barbaric actions of >others that is a hateful act. I would also be one to defend my >tradition if challenged - most certainly. What I would like to not >loose sight of though is the fact that others have also their >traditions which for them would be as valid as mine is to me.
                    >
                    > Here is the tricky part. So if it is my christian tradition/or belief(i.e. my god-yehovah says so) that your tradition should not exist, will you let me follow my tradition(since in you rown words my tradition is valid for me)?
                    >
                    > > I am glad at least my intentions have come across clearly and it >has caused you no offence. I will try and work on my understanding >of tradition,dharma and conversion, not to forget the history of >christianity and Islam!!:)
                    >
                    > Not as bad as you came across in the first post :)
                    >
                    > To others:
                    > What is objective of this thread? Why are we(I am) spending this much time even though it is outside the scope of this list?
                    >
                    > Some members seem to beleive that the attacks on Hinduism are not that much of a concern. It was even projected(not directly said) that somehow all this is will be miraculously taken care of, and nothing needs to be done. History has shown that quite a few civilizations were wiped out because of such line of thought. Hence this concern and small attempt to show the danger in such thinking to this limited group of people. The more people we rid of such thinking the more we are aware. Sometimes just being alert, being well aware and understanding well the scope and background of a threat - in itself mitigates it.
                    > I want to say more on this and will stop...There are already people howling about this whole thread being outside list scope.
                    >
                    > You think your texts will grow hands and legs to save your traditions?? Sigh!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.