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Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa

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  • Scott Palter
    1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better. Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan. 2. Not much. Barbary pirates weren t
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 30, 2003
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      1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better.  Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan.
      2. Not much.  Barbary pirates weren't enough of a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.  logistics.
       
      3. Vienna 1783 would have been a blow to the Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was toop deep by then.
       
      Scott
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 5:10 PM
      Subject: [alternate-history] Mustafa

      What if......

      1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had succeeded him to the throne
      instead of Selim II?


      2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
      out in Spain late in the 1560s?

      3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking Vienna in 1683?

      SDG,
      Josiah



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • Scott Palter
      ... From: Josiah Armes To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa At Thursday
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 1, 2003
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        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM
        Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa

        At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
        1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better.  Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan.

        Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on Vienna?  How long does Turkey hold Hungary?  How about continued warfare against Venice and its results?
         
        Mustafa might have taken Vienna.  Turks couldn't have held it for long.  The problem was starting every campaign in Constantiniople and going back there at the end.  Holding Hungary longer or keeping Austria means a different more functional Hungary./  Venice despends on too many variables.

        2. Not much.  Barbary pirates weren't enough of a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.  logistics.
         
        3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was toop deep by then.

        The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.  I think that every possible effort would have been made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it seems a hard war would have followed.  Would Austria have allies in Poland and/or Russia?
         
        Defensive power yes.  Moscow and Poland could usually be relied on to attack in their zones but remember that Muscow was much weaker in this period
        Scott


        SDG,
        Josiah


        Scott
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Josiah Armes
        To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 5:10 PM
        Subject: [alternate-history] Mustafa

        What if......

        1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had succeeded him to the throne
        instead of Selim II?




        2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
        out in Spain late in the 1560s?

        3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking Vienna in 1683?

        SDG,
        Josiah



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      • Scott Palter
        ... From: Josiah Armes To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa ... From: Josiah
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 1, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa

          At Saturday 2/1/2003 03:59 PM, you wrote:

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Josiah Armes
          To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM
          Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa

          At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
          1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better.  Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan.

          Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on Vienna?  How long does Turkey hold Hungary?  How about continued warfare against Venice and its results?

           
          Mustafa might have taken Vienna.  Turks couldn't have held it for long.  The problem was starting every campaign in Constantiniople and going back there at the end.  Holding Hungary longer or keeping Austria means a different more functional Hungary./  Venice despends on too many variables.

          According to your reasoning it would seem any capture of Vienna would be only temporary; to demoralize the Austrians and levy money from the inhabitants (as with allied entry into Berlin in 7-yr war)?

          What would have been necessary for Mustafa to abolish this practice?
           
          He has to feel safe enough on the throne to leave the capital for years at a stretch and be correct because someone will try a coup.


          2. Not much.  Barbary pirates weren't enough of a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.  logistics.

           
          3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was toop deep by then.

          The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.  I think that every possible effort would have been made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it seems a hard war would have followed.  Would Austria have allies in Poland and/or Russia?

           
          Defensive power yes.  Moscow and Poland could usually be relied on to attack in their zones but remember that Muscow was much weaker in this period

          So how well would they have been able to hold it, and for how long?
           
          Too many variables
          Scott


          SDG,
          Josiah

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        • Josiah Armes
          What if...... 1) Suleiman the Great s son, Mustafa, had succeeded him to the throne instead of Selim II? 2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 1, 2003
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            What if......

            1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had succeeded him to the throne
            instead of Selim II?

            2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
            out in Spain late in the 1560s?

            3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking Vienna in 1683?

            SDG,
            Josiah
          • Josiah Armes
            At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote: 1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better. Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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              At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
              1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better.  Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan.

              Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on Vienna?  How long does Turkey hold Hungary?  How about continued warfare against Venice and its results?

              2. Not much.  Barbary pirates weren't enough of a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.  logistics.
               
              3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was toop deep by then.

              The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.  I think that every possible effort would have been made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it seems a hard war would have followed.  Would Austria have allies in Poland and/or Russia?

              SDG,
              Josiah

               
              Scott
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Josiah Armes
              To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 5:10 PM
              Subject: [alternate-history] Mustafa

              What if......

              1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had succeeded him to the throne
              instead of Selim II?




              2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
              out in Spain late in the 1560s?

              3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking Vienna in 1683?

              SDG,
              Josiah



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT
              8eeca8.jpg 
              8eed1e.jpg

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            • Josiah Armes
              ... From: Josiah Armes To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa At Thursday
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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                At Saturday 2/1/2003 03:59 PM, you wrote:
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Josiah Armes
                To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM
                Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa

                At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
                1. Major chance of empire surviving longer, modernizing better.  Selim the Sot started a long line of losers as Sultan.

                Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on Vienna?  How long does Turkey hold Hungary?  How about continued warfare against Venice and its results?
                 
                Mustafa might have taken Vienna.  Turks couldn't have held it for long.  The problem was starting every campaign in Constantiniople and going back there at the end.  Holding Hungary longer or keeping Austria means a different more functional Hungary./  Venice despends on too many variables.

                According to your reasoning it would seem any capture of Vienna would be only temporary; to demoralize the Austrians and levy money from the inhabitants (as with allied entry into Berlin in 7-yr war)?

                What would have been necessary for Mustafa to abolish this practice?


                2. Not much.  Barbary pirates weren't enough of a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.  logistics.
                 
                3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was toop deep by then.

                The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.  I think that every possible effort would have been made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it seems a hard war would have followed.  Would Austria have allies in Poland and/or Russia?
                 
                Defensive power yes.  Moscow and Poland could usually be relied on to attack in their zones but remember that Muscow was much weaker in this period

                So how well would they have been able to hold it, and for how long?

                SDG,
                Josiah
              • John Faerseth
                Actively supporting the Turks after a seize of Vienna would be a declaration of war against most of Europe including the Pope. Actually, the best go for Louis
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                  Actively supporting the Turks after a seize of Vienna
                  would be a declaration of war against most of Europe
                  including the Pope. Actually, the best go for Louis in
                  a situation like that might have been to go Protestant
                  or move the French church in an "anglican" direction.

                  --- Scott Palter <agingcow2345@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Josiah Armes
                  > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa
                  >
                  >
                  > At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
                  >
                  > 1. Major chance of empire surviving longer,
                  > modernizing better. Selim the Sot started a long
                  > line of losers as Sultan.
                  >
                  > Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on
                  > Vienna? How long does Turkey hold Hungary? How
                  > about continued warfare against Venice and its
                  > results?
                  >
                  > Mustafa might have taken Vienna. Turks couldn't
                  > have held it for long. The problem was starting
                  > every campaign in Constantiniople and going back
                  > there at the end. Holding Hungary longer or keeping
                  > Austria means a different more functional Hungary./
                  > Venice despends on too many variables.
                  >
                  >
                  > 2. Not much. Barbary pirates weren't enough of
                  > a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was
                  > too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.
                  > logistics.
                  >
                  > 3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the
                  > Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was
                  > toop deep by then.
                  >
                  > The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive
                  > power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.
                  > I think that every possible effort would have been
                  > made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it
                  > seems a hard war would have followed. Would Austria
                  > have allies in Poland and/or Russia?
                  >
                  > Defensive power yes. Moscow and Poland could
                  > usually be relied on to attack in their zones but
                  > remember that Muscow was much weaker in this period
                  > Scott
                  >
                  >
                  > SDG,
                  > Josiah
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Scott
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  > From: Josiah Armes
                  >
                  > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 5:10 PM
                  >
                  > Subject: [alternate-history] Mustafa
                  >
                  >
                  > What if......
                  >
                  >
                  > 1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had
                  > succeeded him to the throne
                  >
                  > instead of Selim II?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of
                  > the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
                  >
                  > out in Spain late in the 1560s?
                  >
                  >
                  > 3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking
                  > Vienna in 1683?
                  >
                  >
                  > SDG,
                  >
                  > Josiah
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >


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                • scott palter
                  In OTL several french kings let turksih fleets base out of Marseilles and Toulon. Louis doesn t have to directly aid them - he profits by diversion of
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                    In OTL several french kings let turksih fleets base out of Marseilles and
                    Toulon. Louis doesn't have to directly aid them - he profits by diversion
                    of Austrian resources to the other front.

                    Scott






                    >From: John Faerseth <edelgris@...>
                    >Reply-To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa
                    >Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:43:04 -0800 (PST)
                    >
                    >Actively supporting the Turks after a seize of Vienna
                    >would be a declaration of war against most of Europe
                    >including the Pope. Actually, the best go for Louis in
                    >a situation like that might have been to go Protestant
                    >or move the French church in an "anglican" direction.
                    >
                    >--- Scott Palter <agingcow2345@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Josiah Armes
                    > > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:33 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Mustafa
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > At Thursday 1/30/2003 07:15 PM, you wrote:
                    > >
                    > > 1. Major chance of empire surviving longer,
                    > > modernizing better. Selim the Sot started a long
                    > > line of losers as Sultan.
                    > >
                    > > Any chance of Mustafa renewing the attack on
                    > > Vienna? How long does Turkey hold Hungary? How
                    > > about continued warfare against Venice and its
                    > > results?
                    > >
                    > > Mustafa might have taken Vienna. Turks couldn't
                    > > have held it for long. The problem was starting
                    > > every campaign in Constantiniople and going back
                    > > there at the end. Holding Hungary longer or keeping
                    > > Austria means a different more functional Hungary./
                    > > Venice despends on too many variables.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 2. Not much. Barbary pirates weren't enough of
                    > > a battle fleet to support a Spanish war and it was
                    > > too far from the main Ottoman Fleet in the Aegean.
                    > > logistics.
                    > >
                    > > 3. Vienna 1683 would have been a blow to the
                    > > Hpasburg and a benefit to Louis XIV but the rot was
                    > > toop deep by then.
                    > >
                    > > The rot was quite deep indeed but the defensive
                    > > power of the Turkish Empire was still considerable.
                    > > I think that every possible effort would have been
                    > > made by the Austrian state to regain Vienna, but it
                    > > seems a hard war would have followed. Would Austria
                    > > have allies in Poland and/or Russia?
                    > >
                    > > Defensive power yes. Moscow and Poland could
                    > > usually be relied on to attack in their zones but
                    > > remember that Muscow was much weaker in this period
                    > > Scott
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > SDG,
                    > > Josiah
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Scott
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > >
                    > > From: Josiah Armes
                    > >
                    > > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 5:10 PM
                    > >
                    > > Subject: [alternate-history] Mustafa
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > What if......
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 1) Suleiman the Great's son, Mustafa, had
                    > > succeeded him to the throne
                    > >
                    > > instead of Selim II?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 2) Mustafa had decided to aid the revolt of
                    > > the Moors/Moriscoes that broke
                    > >
                    > > out in Spain late in the 1560s?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 3) The Ottoman Turks had succeeded in taking
                    > > Vienna in 1683?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > SDG,
                    > >
                    > > Josiah
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > ADVERTISEMENT
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >__________________________________________________
                    >Do you Yahoo!?
                    >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                    >http://mailplus.yahoo.com


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                  • John Faerseth
                    The Ottoman laws of succession are not changed in 1617. Consequences? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus -
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                      The Ottoman laws of succession are not changed in
                      1617. Consequences?

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