Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Schickelgruber

Expand Messages
  • scott palter
    ... US is relatively weaker as Europe does not commit suicide a second time and does not dump their empires anywehere near as early or completely. Latin
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 1, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>

      >Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 02:13:41 -0400 (EDT)
      >
      >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
      >
      >Good scenario. What becomes of the US in this world?
      >
      >
      >On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, scott palter wrote:
      >
      > > From: "scott palter" <payankee2345@...>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
      > > >
      > > >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:42:42 -0400 (EDT)
      > > >
      > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
      > > >
      > > >Cpl. A. Schickelgruber Hitler dies in action, WWI. Consequences?
      > > >
      > > O.K., this comes in pieces. The odds are that the Nazi Party as we know
      >it
      > > never happens. Note, the post WWI extreme right still happens.
      >However,
      > > Hitler managed over the period 1919-23 to unite the ultras of Bavaria
      >and
      > > over 23-28 to unite them in the rest of Germany. The NSDAP was a quirky
      > > collection of radical ultranationalists, antisemites, right populists,
      > > Volkish pan German and assorted single issue kooks. Without Adolph you
      >get
      > > 3-100 parties as at war with each other as with Weimar and the Reds.
      >Net
      > > result is a smaller and weaker ultraright and a larger Communist Party -
      > > essentially the Nazis and the Communists both recruited among those
      > > disillusioned with the status quo - make the Nazis weaker and the Reds
      >get
      > > stronger. Indeed, in the period 29-32 the Nazis were for many a way
      >station
      > > on the road to CP membership in the sense that the former normal person
      > > would become a Nazi and then move onward to become a full Red.
      > >
      > > We now come to alternate but NOT mutually conflicting pathways.
      > >
      > > Presume that the men who became the barons of the Nazis came together
      >under
      > > the pressure of the Depression to form a Volks National Alliance.
      > > Goring would be the poster boy. Blonde, tall, war hero - showed balls
      >in
      > > 1923 when many of the others ran like rabbits ( the beer hall putsch
      >happens
      > > anyway for reasons I'll leave out unless asked).
      > > However, he's first among equals with Gobells, Rhoem, Rosenberg and the
      >two
      > > populists from the Rhineland whose names escape me at the moment ( can
      >look
      > > up if anybody cares). Herman's content to be a figurehead for the right
      >and
      > > the army so that the twisted politics of 1932 ends with Goring as the
      >front
      > > on an industrial - military dictatorship including the National party
      >(von
      > > Pappen and co - the hsitoric allies) and the catholic Center Party (
      > > historically oppositional but not in this case).
      > >
      > > A more unlikely but quite amusing scenario has two Nazi parties - the
      >right
      > > radical of which under Gobels forms a popular front with the Communists
      >(
      > > Joseph actually did so during the Berlin transit strike, one of the key
      > > moves that brought Hitler to power as the threat was that he'd get in
      >either
      > > allied to the right or the Reds). The Red Brown coalition goes to war
      >in
      > > the streets with the Army and the regular Nazis under Goring. Massive
      >civil
      > > war and effective destruction of the German state as a threat to Europe
      >in
      > > the 30's whoever wins ( my money is on the army but ...).
      > >
      > > Now presume the more likely course of an army - nationalist government
      >with
      > > some right radical support in 32-33 ( essentially the Hitler
      >constitutional
      > > putsch under Brunning or Schlachter) - you still get rearmament. You
      > > probably get Anchuluss in 34 instead of 38.
      > > However it ends there. WWII in Europe never happens. A German rightist
      > > block - Germany, Austria ( if independent), Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary,
      > > Poland, Sweden, Finalnd and the Baltic States is formed by a mixture of
      > > military power without war ( call it appeasement of the obvious power
      >center
      > > plus anticommunism), diplomacy, intrigue and raw economic power. It
      >shares
      > > dominium with France, Italy and the UK in the Balkans and Turkey. It
      >shares
      > > it with the UK in Holland, Denmark and Norway. A meeting of the minds
      >is
      > > reached with Stalin in 1939. The three blocks continue to rearm and
      >scheme
      > > but no war ever starts - border incidents, putsches, etc. are another
      > > matter. The new German block is antisemetic but not exterminationist (
      >a
      > > minority view even in the real nazi party and one not likely to be
      >tolerated
      > > by the army - too messy and takes strength away from the state). Jews
      >and
      > > liberals and socialists are under strict police control and oppressed
      >but
      > > beatings and death are a fringe thing from the ultraright - think of pre
      > > 1954 Dixie where there was extreme opporession but the actual white
      >power
      > > structure found the KKK crude and lower class - used it, could not
      >totally
      > > control it but tried to keep the blood shed and disorder within fairly
      > > strict bounds.
      > >
      > > Essentially I see WWII as being caused by three accidental men - Hitler,
      > > Stalin and Chamerlin.
      > >
      > > Scott

      US is relatively weaker as Europe does not commit suicide a second time and
      does not dump their empires anywehere near as early or completely. Latin
      America is less a US preserve and more of a mixed zone with strong British,
      German, Italian and Russian influences, investment and trade. Europe is
      more of a tech leader compared to OTL. We do not have WWII or the Cold War
      to force defense and science spending. We have a fortress America with a
      home defense army, very large air force and huge navy. Japan's war in China
      goes on to exhaustion in the 50's. Three way partition between Chiang
      remnants, Mao's CPR and Japanese Nanking. East Asia's economic renaisance in
      the 80's and 90's never happens. It is poor, over populated and a tech
      backwater. Space exploration comes earlier and in a multiway race all have
      orbital, lunar and asteriod bases. Space manufacturing and energy creation
      plus the capital not wasted by WWII makes this a richer first and second
      world but not a richer world as a whole. The New Deal goes on through the
      60's. Much stronger government and unions, a basically social democratic
      nation. North and Midwest are stronger, South and West are weaker. Old
      farm belt and old center cities are stronger, suburban sprawl weaker. 60's
      revolutiuons happen only in very attenuated forms - black civil rights in
      the late 40's but no real movement for integration / equality or black
      nationalism as both are marginalized as the views of the left split from the
      Dems ( call them Progressives - Wallace did). Line of President is 32 FDR -
      36 FDR -
      40 FDR -
      44 FDR -
      45 Truman -
      48 Truman -
      52 Truman
      56 Humphrey
      60 Humphrey
      64 JFK
      68 JFK
      72 RFK
      76 RFK
      80 Cuomo
      84 Cuomo
      88 Bradley
      92 Bradley
      96 mITCHELL ( ME)
      In other words all Democrats and no southerners.

      Scott
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.