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Scottish Colony in Panama?

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  • Kyle A Ankeny
    I ve been watching this excellent series on the History Channel called the History of Britain , which some of you may have seen. One interesting point they
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
      I've been watching this excellent series on the History Channel called
      the 'History of Britain', which some of you may have seen. One
      interesting point they brought out was, as a last ditch effort for
      Scotland to stay independent, they had the idea to start a colony on the
      thinnest part of Panama. From there, cargo could be carried the 40 miles
      from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They wanted to setup a trading port
      that would result in a great influx of money to Scotland, allowing them
      to make it on their own. After spending what I believe was 1/6th of
      their funds, a fairly large expedition set out to start the colony. It
      failed miserably, mainly because of bad climate and diseases spread by
      mosquitos. They got their information from an old pirate surgeon who
      claimed the area was paradise, and that the natives spent all day combing
      their hair. As a result, they also packed an absurd number of combs to
      trade with the natives! Needless to say, this info turned out to be
      false. As a result of this failure, when British delgates brought a
      chest full of the money that had been lost in the expedition (I believe
      they said about 389,000 pounds) to the barganing table, and offered to
      pay off the debts of Scotland if they joined, the Scottish parliment
      pushed the Union bill through in 10 weeks. The result was Great Britain.

      Now, what would have happened if this scheme succeeded? It's a long
      shot, but let's say a small, hardy band manages to survive and eventually
      does acheive what the Scots were hoping for? If Scotland stay
      independent, then what?

      Kyle
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    • Scott Palter
      Transhipment trade across Central America only became noticeably profitable with the California Gold Rush. Major profit requires the Canal which needs 20th
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
        Transhipment trade across Central America only became noticeably profitable
        with the California Gold Rush. Major profit requires the Canal which needs
        20th Century medicine and 19th Century steam and nitro technology. If you
        wish to have a rich Scotland try having them find either the California gold
        fields or the Great mid19th century asutralian gold strike.

        Scott
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Kyle A Ankeny" <Astronomer_Kyle@...>
        To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:52 AM
        Subject: [alternate-history] Scottish Colony in Panama?


        > I've been watching this excellent series on the History Channel called
        > the 'History of Britain', which some of you may have seen. One
        > interesting point they brought out was, as a last ditch effort for
        > Scotland to stay independent, they had the idea to start a colony on the
        > thinnest part of Panama. From there, cargo could be carried the 40 miles
        > from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They wanted to setup a trading port
        > that would result in a great influx of money to Scotland, allowing them
        > to make it on their own. After spending what I believe was 1/6th of
        > their funds, a fairly large expedition set out to start the colony. It
        > failed miserably, mainly because of bad climate and diseases spread by
        > mosquitos. They got their information from an old pirate surgeon who
        > claimed the area was paradise, and that the natives spent all day combing
        > their hair. As a result, they also packed an absurd number of combs to
        > trade with the natives! Needless to say, this info turned out to be
        > false. As a result of this failure, when British delgates brought a
        > chest full of the money that had been lost in the expedition (I believe
        > they said about 389,000 pounds) to the barganing table, and offered to
        > pay off the debts of Scotland if they joined, the Scottish parliment
        > pushed the Union bill through in 10 weeks. The result was Great Britain.
        >
        > Now, what would have happened if this scheme succeeded? It's a long
        > shot, but let's say a small, hardy band manages to survive and eventually
        > does acheive what the Scots were hoping for? If Scotland stay
        > independent, then what?
        >
        > Kyle
        > ________________________________________________________________
        > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
        > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
        > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
        > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Jim Scribner
        John Paul doesn t take the alias John Paul Jones and move to America to escape English smuggling charges but becomes a Panama trader and Scottish Navy hero in
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
          John Paul doesn't take the alias John Paul Jones and move to America to escape English smuggling charges but becomes a Panama trader and Scottish Navy hero in their wars with England, France, and Spain. The British Army is deprived of Highlander Regiments and bagpipes. The Stuarts remain in power as Scottish Kings and some other poor unfortunate monarch has his head chopped off by Cromwell. The Scottish Navy takes the Philipines from Spain
          and it's eventual military governor Douglas MacArthur wears a kilt.

          Jim in Texas
        • Jim Scribner
          John Paul doesn t take the alias John Paul Jones and move to America to escape English smuggling charges but becomes a Panama trader and Scottish Navy hero in
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
            John Paul doesn't take the alias John Paul Jones and move to America to escape English smuggling charges but becomes a Panama trader and Scottish Navy hero in their wars with England, France, and Spain. The British Army is deprived of Highlander Regiments and bagpipes. The Stuarts remain in power as Scottish Kings and some other poor unfortunate monarch has his head chopped off by Cromwell. The Scottish Navy takes the Philipines from Spain
            and it's eventual military governor Douglas MacArthur wears a kilt.

            Jim in Texas
          • rurr2@hotmail.com
            ... called ... on the ... miles ... port ... them ... a long ... eventually ... If the colony is a success then it would be quickly overun and overawed by the
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 2, 2001
              --- In alternate-history@y..., Kyle A Ankeny <Astronomer_Kyle@J...>
              wrote:
              > I've been watching this excellent series on the History Channel
              called
              > the 'History of Britain', which some of you may have seen. One
              > interesting point they brought out was, as a last ditch effort for
              > Scotland to stay independent, they had the idea to start a colony
              on the
              > thinnest part of Panama. From there, cargo could be carried the 40
              miles
              > from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They wanted to setup a trading
              port
              > that would result in a great influx of money to Scotland, allowing
              them
              > to make it on their own. After spending what I believe was 1/6th of

              >
              > Now, what would have happened if this scheme succeeded? It's
              a long
              > shot, but let's say a small, hardy band manages to survive and
              eventually
              > does acheive what the Scots were hoping for? If Scotland stay
              > independent, then what?
              >
              > Kyle
              >

              If the colony is a success then it would be quickly overun and
              overawed by the Spanish or English.

              The Scots have to come to an agreement with the English. The English
              are on their borders. The Scots have issues with the Highlanders.
              Darien might mean better terms in the act of Union but thats it.

              If the Scots do make a bid for independence. The English then try to
              subdue Scotland. This stretches English resources. As they have to
              fight in the Lowlands a modern society. England is weaker in the 18th
              century. industrial revolution occurs elsewhere?


              Rurr
            • Thomas Roche
              If Scotland remains a quasi-independent nation with colonial ambitions of its own, and fighting with England at least periodically, into the mid 18th century,
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 4, 2001
                If Scotland remains a quasi-independent nation with
                colonial ambitions of its own, and fighting with
                England at least periodically, into the mid 18th
                century, what would be the splinter consequences for
                the settling of the *English* NA colonies, Northern
                Ireland, etc., and their relationships with their
                English mother country?
                --- rurr2@... wrote:
                > --- In alternate-history@y..., Kyle A Ankeny
                > <Astronomer_Kyle@J...>
                > wrote:
                > > I've been watching this excellent series on the
                > History Channel
                > called
                > > the 'History of Britain', which some of you may
                > have seen. One
                > > interesting point they brought out was, as a last
                > ditch effort for
                > > Scotland to stay independent, they had the idea to
                > start a colony
                > on the
                > > thinnest part of Panama. From there, cargo could
                > be carried the 40
                > miles
                > > from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They wanted to
                > setup a trading
                > port
                > > that would result in a great influx of money to
                > Scotland, allowing
                > them
                > > to make it on their own. After spending what I
                > believe was 1/6th of
                >
                > >
                > > Now, what would have happened if this scheme
                > succeeded? It's
                > a long
                > > shot, but let's say a small, hardy band manages to
                > survive and
                > eventually
                > > does acheive what the Scots were hoping for? If
                > Scotland stay
                > > independent, then what?
                > >
                > > Kyle
                > >
                >
                > If the colony is a success then it would be quickly
                > overun and
                > overawed by the Spanish or English.
                >
                > The Scots have to come to an agreement with the
                > English. The English
                > are on their borders. The Scots have issues with the
                > Highlanders.
                > Darien might mean better terms in the act of Union
                > but thats it.
                >
                > If the Scots do make a bid for independence. The
                > English then try to
                > subdue Scotland. This stretches English resources.
                > As they have to
                > fight in the Lowlands a modern society. England is
                > weaker in the 18th
                > century. industrial revolution occurs elsewhere?
                >
                >
                > Rurr
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • rurr2@hotmail.com
                ... Firstly Scotland of this period is two societies. There are the lowlanders, The south of the Country. the Big towns A Presybterian Scots speaking society.
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 5, 2001
                  --- In alternate-history@y..., Thomas Roche <tertullianus_2000@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > If Scotland remains a quasi-independent nation with
                  > colonial ambitions of its own, and fighting with
                  > England at least periodically, into the mid 18th
                  > century, what would be the splinter consequences for
                  > the settling of the *English* NA colonies, Northern
                  > Ireland, etc., and their relationships with their
                  > English mother country?
                  >



                  Firstly Scotland of this period is two societies. There are the
                  lowlanders, The south of the Country. the Big towns A Presybterian
                  Scots speaking society.

                  Then there are the The Highlanders. Based in the NW and the Highlands
                  and islands.A Gaelic speaking Agarian clan based society. There are
                  Catholic highlanders. Yet due to cultural and linguistic reasons, the
                  Highlanders have not been asborbed into mainstream Scotch
                  Protestantism.

                  So basically Scotland has 2 problems it must assmilate or defeat the
                  enemy within. (The Highlanders)Then there are the English

                  Assimlating the Highlanders would take Money and threats. the
                  Highlanders have to be civilised and brought into the Mainstream. I
                  don't see this happening. The Scotch lowlanders don't have the
                  resources to subdue the Highlanders. As in OTl they invite the
                  English in to do if for them.

                  In this TL with the Scots colonies making money the Scots nobilty
                  would perhaps not be so easily bribed into signing the act of Union.
                  there would be the price of independence. The Scots would have to
                  maintain a large standing army. fortifying their borders. Maintaining
                  a fleet to protect the colonies. This is all going to be very
                  expensive. This would mean higher taxes then England. What does that
                  do to investiment and Economic growth. Plus higher taxes bite the
                  highlanders hard. they become petulant. Draining Scotlands resources
                  further. Remember the Highlanders can raise an army of several
                  thousand if needs be.
                  Perhaps the Scots might get some help from the French. The Ould
                  alliance? Not going to go down well with a fiercely protestant
                  people. With memories of Mary of Guise. Even if it doesn't come down
                  to a shooting match with English. The Merchantile class of Glasgow
                  and Dundee would want access to the American colonial markets. Are
                  the English going to be disposed towards doing that? The English are
                  not going to Tolerate a Frencha Army in Glasgow. It's the same
                  situation as Canada and the USA. The Scots have to make a deal.

                  If Darien becomes a success, It will become a sitting duck! The
                  Spanish, French and English are all in it's neighbourhood. If Darien
                  was overun then the Scots loose there Golden Goose.

                  There is a second possibly. A Scottish colonial success. actually
                  increases support for the act of union. The act of union was not that
                  popular in England. It was described by some as ``like being tied to
                  a corpse and thrown into a ditch!'' with a more prosperous Scotland.
                  the English woo the Scots more and perhaps the act of union occurs
                  but Scotlands remains on paper more formally independent.

                  T

                  NI The Ulster protestants stay loyal to the British ( English )Crown.
                  Those Scotch highlanders have a lot more in common with the Irish
                  then them. They don't want a highland army landing in Antrim. Under a
                  Stuart or Gaelic banner.


                  Rurr,
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