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Elizabeth I

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  • blueboybythesea
    I have been reading about Elizabeth I and I did not know Mary her sister was close or could have chosen to have Elizabeth killed or married off. How would
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1, 2010
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      I have been reading about Elizabeth I and I did not know Mary her sister was close or could have chosen to have Elizabeth killed or married off. How would both English and American history have changed?

      Jim
    • Terrierkeeper
      Considering how disfunctional the Tudors were as a family, any number of things could go. First of all, Bloody Mary resented her little sister since Henry the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1, 2010
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        Considering how disfunctional the Tudors were as a family, any number of things could go.

        First of all, Bloody Mary resented her little sister since Henry the Eight divorced and exiled her mother Catherine of Arogone and her to marry her mother Anne Bolyne. So I doubt they were ever close. Bloody Mary was hardly compassionate or kind or open minded. She wanted everything she lost back to what it was before her world went upside down and would not allow anything or anyone to get in her way to getting that. She alienated and drove off the affection of her subjects to have her world her way, and; she paid the ulimate price in history in which she has gone down despised and villified. When she was dying of cancer few of her subjects cared to hear anything but news of her demise. Most saw her horrible death to be a form of divine justice.

        If Mary had her sister executed or assasinated, that is that. The only heir to Britain's throne is Mary Stewart the ultimaate air head and a Catholic but her Calvanist subjects would take her son and raise him protestant. Britain's fate is decided on how little Jimmy is raised.

        If Mary marries her sister off and she has children, the House of Stewart stays in Scotland, and; Britain's fate in religeon is decided by who the husband is. For all the spin of The Iron Queen and stout Defender of the protestant Faith, Elisabeth seems to have been rather spineless and disfunctional as a result of her upbringing. Most of her 'bold decisions were more from her ministers or lack of nerve than any inner strength or conviction. If you are looking for the 'strong woman' you will be quite disapointed with her.

        Remember, these are the daughters of Henry VIII whose views towards women and wives are well known. They come from a political court and era in which intrigue and double dealings were common practice.


        --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "blueboybythesea" <blueboybythesea@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have been reading about Elizabeth I and I did not know Mary her sister was close or could have chosen to have Elizabeth killed or married off. How would both English and American history have changed?
        >
        > Jim
        >
      • blueboybythesea
        How would Phillip of Spain fit in and being an American, does Spain come to North America or stay in Caribbean? Jim
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 1, 2010
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          How would Phillip of Spain fit in and being an American, does Spain come to North America or stay in Caribbean?

          Jim

          --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "Terrierkeeper" <dinmont2@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Considering how disfunctional the Tudors were as a family, any number of things could go.
          >
          > First of all, Bloody Mary resented her little sister since Henry the Eight divorced and exiled her mother Catherine of Arogone and her to marry her mother Anne Bolyne. So I doubt they were ever close. Bloody Mary was hardly compassionate or kind or open minded. She wanted everything she lost back to what it was before her world went upside down and would not allow anything or anyone to get in her way to getting that. She alienated and drove off the affection of her subjects to have her world her way, and; she paid the ulimate price in history in which she has gone down despised and villified. When she was dying of cancer few of her subjects cared to hear anything but news of her demise. Most saw her horrible death to be a form of divine justice.
          >
          > If Mary had her sister executed or assasinated, that is that. The only heir to Britain's throne is Mary Stewart the ultimaate air head and a Catholic but her Calvanist subjects would take her son and raise him protestant. Britain's fate is decided on how little Jimmy is raised.
          >
          > If Mary marries her sister off and she has children, the House of Stewart stays in Scotland, and; Britain's fate in religeon is decided by who the husband is. For all the spin of The Iron Queen and stout Defender of the protestant Faith, Elisabeth seems to have been rather spineless and disfunctional as a result of her upbringing. Most of her 'bold decisions were more from her ministers or lack of nerve than any inner strength or conviction. If you are looking for the 'strong woman' you will be quite disapointed with her.
          >
          > Remember, these are the daughters of Henry VIII whose views towards women and wives are well known. They come from a political court and era in which intrigue and double dealings were common practice.
          >
          >
          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "blueboybythesea" <blueboybythesea@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have been reading about Elizabeth I and I did not know Mary her sister was close or could have chosen to have Elizabeth killed or married off. How would both English and American history have changed?
          > >
          > > Jim
          > >
          >
        • Terrierkeeper
          Since Bloody Mary died childless, he does not fit into the picture after she dies. Indeed, throughout their marriage Britain and Spain kept seperate
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 2, 2010
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            Since Bloody Mary died childless, he does not fit into the picture after she dies. Indeed, throughout their marriage Britain and Spain kept seperate territories with each obligated to stay out of the other's zones which certainly benefitted Spain to keep the Brits out of the new world and all its wealth. I suppose if Mary had children then the two kingdoms might be combined if Parliament consented but Spain's royals would not likely go along since I believe he already had heirs to the spanish empire who would not care to give up what they would get.

            Michael

            --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "blueboybythesea" <blueboybythesea@...> wrote:
            >
            > How would Phillip of Spain fit in and being an American, does Spain come to North America or stay in Caribbean?
            >
            > Jim
            >
          • Eric Oppen
            ... Even if Mary Tudor had had children, I don t think that the Spanish and English monarchies would have stayed long united. There was just too much distance
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 2, 2010
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              Quoting Terrierkeeper <dinmont2@...>:

              > Since Bloody Mary died childless, he does not fit into the picture
              > after she dies. Indeed, throughout their marriage Britain and Spain
              > kept seperate territories with each obligated to stay out of the
              > other's zones which certainly benefitted Spain to keep the Brits out
              > of the new world and all its wealth. I suppose if Mary had
              > children then the two kingdoms might be combined if Parliament
              > consented but Spain's royals would not likely go along since I
              > believe he already had heirs to the spanish empire who would not
              > care to give up what they would get.
              >
              > Michael

              Even if Mary Tudor had had children, I don't think that the Spanish
              and English monarchies would have stayed long united. There was just
              too much distance and cultural differences for it to work out---think
              Henry II's Angevin Empire, times three or four.

              An interesting WI would have been "WI Catherine of Aragon died in
              childbed in the pregnancy she had right after Mary?" If that had
              happened, Henry could have remarried with the Pope's blessing, and the
              Catholic church in England would have gone on for a lot longer---oh,
              there was corruption and abuses, but no worse than most other places,
              and a lot of the Reformation was put through over the objections of
              the people. And Mary would have been infinitely better-adjusted and
              made a much better queen---she'd probably have been married off to
              someone her father approved of decades before she married in OTL.

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            • rurrjh
              Mary has to deliver a strong son, and have him survive to adulthood If that happens Elizabeth is married off. She is the interesting tolerant and clever queen
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 3, 2010
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                Mary has to deliver a strong son, and have him survive to adulthood

                If that happens Elizabeth is married off. She is the interesting tolerant and clever queen of the prince she is married off to, and be interesting to see her her children

                The Tudors are newbies, the Stuarts and house of lancaster would have stood up better to the challenges of the reformation era



                --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "blueboybythesea" <blueboybythesea@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have been reading about Elizabeth I and I did not know Mary her sister was close or could have chosen to have Elizabeth killed or married off. How would both English and American history have changed?
                >
                > Jim
                >
              • Eric Oppen
                ... I wonder how the House of York would have dealt with the Reformation? If Richard III had won Bosworth, he d have probably lived into at least the early
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 3, 2010
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                  Quoting rurrjh <rurr2@...>:

                  > Mary has to deliver a strong son, and have him survive to adulthood
                  >
                  > If that happens Elizabeth is married off. She is the interesting
                  > tolerant and clever queen of the prince she is married off to, and
                  > be interesting to see her her children
                  >
                  > The Tudors are newbies, the Stuarts and house of lancaster would
                  > have stood up better to the challenges of the reformation era

                  I wonder how the House of York would have dealt with the Reformation?
                  If Richard III had won Bosworth, he'd have probably lived into at
                  least the early 1500s, just about the time Martin Luther started
                  things up over in Germany. While I can't see R3 himself being too
                  sympathetic, a lot of the same pressures that produced the English
                  Reformation would still have been there.

                  Of course, another fun thing to think about is what Shakespeare and
                  Marlowe would have written for an England under Plantagenet/Yorkist
                  rule. The history plays, particularly the later ones, would almost
                  all be very different, and there'd be no _Henry VIII_. (No big loss.)

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