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RE: [alternate-history] British North America fights in WW1

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  • Amina Arraf
    Perhaps, General Pershing leads the Indian Army to Tashkent as well? ... ____________________________________________________________________________________
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 1 4:42 AM
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      Perhaps, General Pershing leads the Indian Army to
      Tashkent as well?

      --- Ruairi James Heekin <rurr2@...> wrote:

      >
      > No American revolution: United Colonies UK and
      > Ireland. Australia New Zealand, and the Platte
      > Colony. Have an Imperial parliment based in London
      >
      > Three Emperors opposes the British empire. Russia
      > Germany Austria hungray.
      >
      > Colonial mounted force, assembles in Gladstone
      > (Vancouver ) For a push into Russian American
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.comFrom:
      > luke.whitehead@...: Tue, 31 Jul 2007
      > 23:17:20 +0000Subject: [alternate-history] British
      > North America fights in WW1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's
      > timeline 191 series, well I would like to create a
      > North America that's still in the British Empire and
      > fights in WW1 and like that series WW1 is fought in
      > North America as well, I need serious help?,LW
      >
      >



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    • otto_von_suds
      WWI isn t inevitable or even that likely. What is more likely given the POD of no successful ARW is a british world state by 1900 using 20th century technology
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 1 5:01 AM
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        WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is more likely given
        the POD of no successful ARW is a british world state by 1900 using
        20th century technology to convert the "heathen wogs" and impose
        british culture on peoples by force. A world where all other religions
        besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and where Mecca in
        1900 is a long burned out archeological site.

        --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "martian1912"
        <luke.whitehead@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's timeline 191 series,
        > well I would like to create a North America that's still in the British
        > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1 is fought in North
        > America as well,
        >
        > I need serious help?,
        >
        >
        >
        > LW
        >
      • Amina Arraf
        Why would the British have changed their views towards other religons? In OTL, they (with the Dutch) were about the least concerned regarding the religion of
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 1 5:15 AM
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          Why would the British have changed their views towards
          other religons?
          In OTL, they (with the Dutch) were about the least
          concerned regarding the religion of the ruled ...

          --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:

          > WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is
          > more likely given
          > the POD of no successful ARW is a british world
          > state by 1900 using
          > 20th century technology to convert the "heathen
          > wogs" and impose
          > british culture on peoples by force. A world where
          > all other religions
          > besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and
          > where Mecca in
          > 1900 is a long burned out archeological site.
          >
          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
          > "martian1912"
          > <luke.whitehead@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's
          > timeline 191 series,
          > > well I would like to create a North America that's
          > still in the British
          > > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1
          > is fought in North
          > > America as well,
          > >
          > > I need serious help?,
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > LW
          > >
          >
          >
          >




          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
          http://travel.yahoo.com/
        • otto_von_suds
          That was only because Britain had to complete with other powers but with a universal british state and 19th century white supremacist memes....
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 1 5:20 AM
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            That was only because Britain had to complete with other powers but
            with a universal british state and 19th century white supremacist
            memes....

            --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
            <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
            >
            > Why would the British have changed their views towards
            > other religons?
            > In OTL, they (with the Dutch) were about the least
            > concerned regarding the religion of the ruled ...
            >
            > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
            >
            > > WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is
            > > more likely given
            > > the POD of no successful ARW is a british world
            > > state by 1900 using
            > > 20th century technology to convert the "heathen
            > > wogs" and impose
            > > british culture on peoples by force. A world where
            > > all other religions
            > > besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and
            > > where Mecca in
            > > 1900 is a long burned out archeological site.
            > >
            > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "martian1912"
            > > <luke.whitehead@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's
            > > timeline 191 series,
            > > > well I would like to create a North America that's
            > > still in the British
            > > > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1
            > > is fought in North
            > > > America as well,
            > > >
            > > > I need serious help?,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > LW
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Need a vacation? Get great deals
            > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
            > http://travel.yahoo.com/
            >
          • Amina Arraf
            I dunno; they were always a lot more laissez faire towards other Christian groups (Catholics, dissenters, etc) and Jews in the core than most other powers and,
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 1 2:15 PM
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              I dunno; they were always a lot more laissez faire towards other Christian groups (Catholics, dissenters, etc) and Jews in the core than most other powers and, by the 19th century, were moving towards full equality for Catholics and Jews ... I can't see Disraeli, for one, likely forcing conversion.
              In British India, conversion was rarely encouraged.
              So, i think you need a much earlier change of basic culture to get a militant "English Inquisition"

              otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
              That was only because Britain had to complete with other powers but
              with a universal british state and 19th century white supremacist
              memes....

              --- In alternate-history@ yahoogroups. com, Amina Arraf
              <threefoldamina@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Why would the British have changed their views towards
              > other religons?
              > In OTL, they (with the Dutch) were about the least
              > concerned regarding the religion of the ruled ...
              >
              > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > > WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is
              > > more likely given
              > > the POD of no successful ARW is a british world
              > > state by 1900 using
              > > 20th century technology to convert the "heathen
              > > wogs" and impose
              > > british culture on peoples by force. A world where
              > > all other religions
              > > besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and
              > > where Mecca in
              > > 1900 is a long burned out archeological site.
              > >
              > > --- In alternate-history@ yahoogroups. com,
              > > "martian1912"
              > > <luke.whitehead@ > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's
              > > timeline 191 series,
              > > > well I would like to create a North America that's
              > > still in the British
              > > > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1
              > > is fought in North
              > > > America as well,
              > > >
              > > > I need serious help?,
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > LW
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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              > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
              > http://travel. yahoo.com/
              >



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            • R
              ... 1. No American revolution. The Yankee Child does not leave its Mothers embrace. Well the Yankee boy is going to get too big to whipped. Americans are not
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 1 3:21 PM
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                > >
                > > > WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is
                > > > more likely given
                > > > the POD of no successful ARW is a british world
                > > > state by 1900 using
                > > > 20th century technology to convert the "heathen
                > > > wogs" and impose
                > > > british culture on peoples by force. A world where
                > > > all other religions
                > > > besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and
                > > > where Mecca in
                > > > 1900 is a long burned out archeological site.





                1. No American revolution. The Yankee Child does not leave its
                Mothers embrace. Well the Yankee boy is going to get too big to
                whipped. Americans are not Anglicans as a rule.

                The sheer size of India, and China. Millions of people, to be
                converted.

                2 France is still France, despite centuries of Anglo Saxon
                supremacy. France is still France, despite being whipped by the
                Germans thice. The United empire, might be invincible on sea. RN was
                for centuries.
                ab. Ditto Soviet Union -Russia. RN can blockade. RN can bombard. How
                far, do they get. The continental powers, withdraw and withdraw.


                3. Why would Anglos decide to attack Mecca. Any of the European
                powers could have done that anyway in the 19th century. Probably
                The Ottomans are a British protectorate. (Opposing the Tsar)
                Protection of Suez.

                4. English got this out of there system a long time ago.
                The Anglican Communion. Might well be the worlds leading light.
                Kudos of the World's largest Empire.
                The English made their peace with Presybeterian Scotland. (Screwing
                the Scottish Anglicans ) They accepted the Peace that Rome offered.
                Empire was training West Indian lawyers. Indian Princes did go to
                Eton.
              • otto_von_suds
                Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a global british empire as possibly ending up a totalitarian universal state complete with militant imagery. ...
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 1 4:03 PM
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                  Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a global british empire as
                  possibly ending up a totalitarian universal state complete with
                  militant imagery.

                  --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                  <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I dunno; they were always a lot more laissez faire towards other
                  Christian groups (Catholics, dissenters, etc) and Jews in the core
                  than most other powers and, by the 19th century, were moving towards
                  full equality for Catholics and Jews ... I can't see Disraeli, for
                  one, likely forcing conversion.
                  > In British India, conversion was rarely encouraged.
                  > So, i think you need a much earlier change of basic culture to get
                  a militant "English Inquisition"
                  >
                  > otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
                  > That was only because Britain had to complete with other
                  powers but
                  > with a universal british state and 19th century white supremacist
                  > memes....
                  >
                  > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                  > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Why would the British have changed their views towards
                  > > other religons?
                  > > In OTL, they (with the Dutch) were about the least
                  > > concerned regarding the religion of the ruled ...
                  > >
                  > > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > WWI isn't inevitable or even that likely. What is
                  > > > more likely given
                  > > > the POD of no successful ARW is a british world
                  > > > state by 1900 using
                  > > > 20th century technology to convert the "heathen
                  > > > wogs" and impose
                  > > > british culture on peoples by force. A world where
                  > > > all other religions
                  > > > besides Episcopalianism are in permanent retreat and
                  > > > where Mecca in
                  > > > 1900 is a long burned out archeological site.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > "martian1912"
                  > > > <luke.whitehead@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's
                  > > > timeline 191 series,
                  > > > > well I would like to create a North America that's
                  > > > still in the British
                  > > > > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1
                  > > > is fought in North
                  > > > > America as well,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I need serious help?,
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > LW
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > > Need a vacation? Get great deals
                  > > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                  > > http://travel.yahoo.com/
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not
                  web links.
                  >
                • R
                  ... Militant against whom? If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why bother making Eskimos and Pygmies kneel. Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 1 4:12 PM
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                    --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "otto_von_suds"
                    <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a global british empire as
                    > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal state complete with
                    > militant imagery.
                    >


                    Militant against whom?

                    If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why bother making
                    Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.

                    Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course there is NO where to
                    run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point. Inertia. Laziness,
                    kick in too
                  • otto_von_suds
                    British utopianism/desire to make everyone into brown englishmen could very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful to showcase democracy forget about
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 1 4:19 PM
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                      British utopianism/desire to make everyone into brown englishmen could
                      very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful to showcase
                      democracy forget about PArliement being as strong as it is now or
                      Britain being a democracy.

                      --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R" <rurr2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "otto_von_suds"
                      > <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a global british empire as
                      > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal state complete with
                      > > militant imagery.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > Militant against whom?
                      >
                      > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why bother making
                      > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                      >
                      > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course there is NO where to
                      > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point. Inertia. Laziness,
                      > kick in too
                      >
                    • R
                      Britan did not have a universal franchise, till 1918. Okay Thousands of Indians go to re-education centres. The entire Aboringal population of Australia is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 1 4:48 PM
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                        Britan did not have a universal franchise, till 1918.

                        Okay

                        Thousands of Indians go to re-education centres.
                        The entire Aboringal population of Australia is sterilised.

                        Yet it remains there are Millions, of white Anglo protestants. In
                        Great Britan, on the North American continent. In Australia.

                        Whats life like for them

                        Irish nationalists, with 1/3 of the population, entitled to the vote.
                        Won most of the seats in Ireland. They won seats in England.

                        add fancy franchises.

                        The law of big numbers works against you
                      • otto_von_suds
                        So we have white british protestants as like a draka Citizen class lording over the labor of billions of slaves. Think the AH short story Two Dooms but with te
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 1 6:42 PM
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                          So we have white british protestants as like a draka Citizen class
                          lording over the labor of billions of slaves. Think the AH short story
                          Two Dooms but with te british instead of the axis powers.

                          --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R" <rurr2@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Britan did not have a universal franchise, till 1918.
                          >
                          > Okay
                          >
                          > Thousands of Indians go to re-education centres.
                          > The entire Aboringal population of Australia is sterilised.
                          >
                          > Yet it remains there are Millions, of white Anglo protestants. In
                          > Great Britan, on the North American continent. In Australia.
                          >
                          > Whats life like for them
                          >
                          > Irish nationalists, with 1/3 of the population, entitled to the vote.
                          > Won most of the seats in Ireland. They won seats in England.
                          >
                          > add fancy franchises.
                          >
                          > The law of big numbers works against you
                          >
                        • Ruairi James Heekin
                          No think of Rome. Without slaves. But with Indian reservations, Missions. A few bad things have happened. ( Ala Tasmanian Aboringals) The Tsar is the Persian
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 2 1:47 AM
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                            No think of Rome. Without slaves. But with  Indian reservations, Missions. A few bad things have happened. ( Ala Tasmanian Aboringals)  The Tsar is the Persian empire.
                          • Amina Arraf
                            But Britain never had much of that desire; that was always ore the French Mission Civiliatrice -- the French had their Africans and Arabs made to learn
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 2 4:27 AM
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                              But Britain never had much of that desire; that was
                              always ore the French "Mission Civiliatrice" --
                              the French had 'their' Africans and Arabs made to
                              learn French and study about "notre ancetres les
                              Gausloises' in school while the English pretty much
                              everywhere prefered to intervene as little as
                              possible.
                              Note that, to present, large numbers of Lebanese.
                              Maghrebis, etc speak French as their primary language
                              while English is largely a secondary language in ost
                              ex-British colonies

                              --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:

                              > British utopianism/desire to make everyone into
                              > brown englishmen could
                              > very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful
                              > to showcase
                              > democracy forget about PArliement being as strong as
                              > it is now or
                              > Britain being a democracy.
                              >
                              > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R"
                              > <rurr2@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                              > "otto_von_suds"
                              > > <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a
                              > global british empire as
                              > > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal
                              > state complete with
                              > > > militant imagery.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Militant against whom?
                              > >
                              > > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why
                              > bother making
                              > > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                              > >
                              > > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course
                              > there is NO where to
                              > > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point.
                              > Inertia. Laziness,
                              > > kick in too
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                            • Amina Arraf
                              Yup; 1815-1840 Britain was the hyperpower and could have conquered much of the world ... but didn t add much outside India. Easier to rule through local
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 2 4:29 AM
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                                Yup; 1815-1840 Britain was the 'hyperpower' and could
                                have conquered much of the world ... but didn't add
                                much outside India.
                                Easier to rule through local allies (like independent
                                Latin American states)

                                --- R <rurr2@...> wrote:

                                > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                                > "otto_von_suds"
                                > <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a global
                                > british empire as
                                > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal state
                                > complete with
                                > > militant imagery.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > Militant against whom?
                                >
                                > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why
                                > bother making
                                > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                                >
                                > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course there
                                > is NO where to
                                > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point.
                                > Inertia. Laziness,
                                > kick in too
                                >
                                >




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                              • otto_von_suds
                                Only because they had the precedent of losing America to rebels to show them not to be excessively interventionistic. ... Yahoo! FareChase.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 2 5:49 AM
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                                  Only because they had the precedent of losing America to rebels to
                                  show them not to be excessively interventionistic.

                                  --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                                  <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > But Britain never had much of that desire; that was
                                  > always ore the French "Mission Civiliatrice" --
                                  > the French had 'their' Africans and Arabs made to
                                  > learn French and study about "notre ancetres les
                                  > Gausloises' in school while the English pretty much
                                  > everywhere prefered to intervene as little as
                                  > possible.
                                  > Note that, to present, large numbers of Lebanese.
                                  > Maghrebis, etc speak French as their primary language
                                  > while English is largely a secondary language in ost
                                  > ex-British colonies
                                  >
                                  > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > British utopianism/desire to make everyone into
                                  > > brown englishmen could
                                  > > very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful
                                  > > to showcase
                                  > > democracy forget about PArliement being as strong as
                                  > > it is now or
                                  > > Britain being a democracy.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R"
                                  > > <rurr2@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > > "otto_von_suds"
                                  > > > <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a
                                  > > global british empire as
                                  > > > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal
                                  > > state complete with
                                  > > > > militant imagery.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Militant against whom?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why
                                  > > bother making
                                  > > > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course
                                  > > there is NO where to
                                  > > > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point.
                                  > > Inertia. Laziness,
                                  > > > kick in too
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                  > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                                  Yahoo! FareChase.
                                  > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                                  >
                                • Ruairi James Heekin
                                  Why was Scotland left Preybertarian Why was Scottish law left aloneThen why was Ireland left Catholic Why was Quebec left Catholic To:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 2 8:33 AM
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                                    Why was Scotland left Preybertarian
                                    Why was Scottish law left alone
                                    Then why was Ireland left Catholic
                                    Why was Quebec left Catholic


                                     

                                    To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: creativezenstraha@...
                                    Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:49:46 +0000
                                    Subject: [alternate-history] Re: British North America fights in WW1

                                    Only because they had the precedent of losing America to rebels to
                                    show them not to be excessively interventionistic.

                                    --- In alternate-history@ yahoogroups. com, Amina Arraf
                                    <threefoldamina@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > But Britain never had much of that desire; that was
                                    > always ore the French "Mission Civiliatrice" --
                                    > the French had 'their' Africans and Arabs made to
                                    > learn French and study about "notre ancetres les
                                    > Gausloises' in school while the English pretty much
                                    > everywhere prefered to intervene as little as
                                    > possible.
                                    > Note that, to present, large numbers of Lebanese.
                                    > Maghrebis, etc speak French as their primary language
                                    > while English is largely a secondary language in ost
                                    > ex-British colonies
                                    >
                                    > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > British utopianism/desire to make everyone into
                                    > > brown englishmen could
                                    > > very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful
                                    > > to showcase
                                    > > democracy forget about PArliement being as strong as
                                    > > it is now or
                                    > > Britain being a democracy.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In alternate-history@ yahoogroups. com, "R"
                                    > > <rurr2@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In alternate-history@ yahoogroups. com,
                                    > > "otto_von_suds"
                                    > > > <creativezenstraha@ > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a
                                    > > global british empire as
                                    > > > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal
                                    > > state complete with
                                    > > > > militant imagery.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Militant against whom?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why
                                    > > bother making
                                    > > > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course
                                    > > there is NO where to
                                    > > > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point.
                                    > > Inertia. Laziness,
                                    > > > kick in too
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                                  • R
                                    Why was Wales left Welsh speaking?
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 2 8:35 AM
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                                      Why was Wales left Welsh speaking?
                                    • mark taylor
                                      Remember Turtledove s The Two Georges,Stirling s The Charge of Lee s Brigade-Britain and America together equals Utopia in many ways. ... Park yourself in
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 2 8:43 AM
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                                        Remember Turtledove's The Two Georges,Stirling's The Charge of Lee's Brigade-Britain and America together equals Utopia in many ways. 


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                                      • Josh
                                        One thing people don t realize about the american revolution is that it was not nessarily an inevitablity. People think the taxes were oppressively high,
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 2 9:16 AM
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                                          One thing people don't realize about the american revolution is that
                                          it was not nessarily an inevitablity.

                                          People think the taxes were oppressively high, actualy even with the
                                          taxes they could still buy their tea from england cheaper then they
                                          could grow it themselves. The trouble was not in the taxes themselves
                                          but rather in the simple fact that they had no say in how much they
                                          paid or where the money was spent.

                                          Had that one issue been addressed then i think it might never have
                                          happened in the first place.

                                          Also during the war there were englishmen defending the rebels
                                          actions in parliment.

                                          One, scottish born i think, was quoted as saying "There has not been
                                          a man born on our fair isle that would accept what we have imposed on
                                          our colonies!"

                                          --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "otto_von_suds"
                                          <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Only because they had the precedent of losing America to rebels to
                                          > show them not to be excessively interventionistic.
                                          >
                                          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                                          > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > But Britain never had much of that desire; that was
                                          > > always ore the French "Mission Civiliatrice" --
                                          > > the French had 'their' Africans and Arabs made to
                                          > > learn French and study about "notre ancetres les
                                          > > Gausloises' in school while the English pretty much
                                          > > everywhere prefered to intervene as little as
                                          > > possible.
                                          > > Note that, to present, large numbers of Lebanese.
                                          > > Maghrebis, etc speak French as their primary language
                                          > > while English is largely a secondary language in ost
                                          > > ex-British colonies
                                          > >
                                          > > --- otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > British utopianism/desire to make everyone into
                                          > > > brown englishmen could
                                          > > > very easily get ugly. Remember without a successful
                                          > > > to showcase
                                          > > > democracy forget about PArliement being as strong as
                                          > > > it is now or
                                          > > > Britain being a democracy.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R"
                                          > > > <rurr2@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                                          > > > "otto_von_suds"
                                          > > > > <creativezenstraha@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see a
                                          > > > global british empire as
                                          > > > > > possibly ending up a totalitarian universal
                                          > > > state complete with
                                          > > > > > militant imagery.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Militant against whom?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > If the sun never sets. Who is there to fight? Why
                                          > > > bother making
                                          > > > > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Now I can see an expanding beauracy. Or course
                                          > > > there is NO where to
                                          > > > > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after a point.
                                          > > > Inertia. Laziness,
                                          > > > > kick in too
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          ______________________________________________________________________
                                          ______________
                                          > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
                                          > Yahoo! FareChase.
                                          > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Mike French
                                          I suspect for this sort of thing to happen you will need an earlier PoD than the War of Independence, and a different World War One. How about this? African
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 4 9:24 AM
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                                            I suspect for this sort of thing to happen you will need an earlier PoD than
                                            the War of Independence, and a different World War One.

                                            How about this? African kingdoms of the West stay strong, Christian and
                                            violently opposed to slavery and slave trading. Any European attempts to
                                            wrest slaves from Africa are vigorously and successfully opposed by the
                                            indigenes and because they present as Christian and statesmanlike there is
                                            no real way of forcing the slave based cotton / tobacco / sugar plantations
                                            which made the Americas so very profitable. America can be cultivated by
                                            freeholders and by indentured convict labour, but basically there has to be
                                            a slower expansion of the European settlements than in OTL. (Note to self;
                                            slave trade enormous and vile, must therefore have had big implications for
                                            economic development in the Americas and that from mid 17th century at
                                            earliest?)

                                            So there is less pressure to go there. Perhaps we can have a few bad seasons
                                            in the Atlantic making travel there more hazardous; the indigenes there pick
                                            up on Western warfare more effectively and on Western diseases less harshly.
                                            That gives you less pressure on the land though there will be expansion from
                                            Central America into the South by Spain using the indigenous population as
                                            labour and religion fodder, expansion into the hinterlands by French traders
                                            and along the Eastern seaboard by the Anglo-Dutch combine. That will be more
                                            controlled than in OTL and run more risks; the numbers involved and the
                                            distances to cover are likely to mean the European powers are not going to
                                            spend so much time and trouble in developing their trade as in OTL. So there
                                            won't be a Revolution in the 18th Century, and since the wars in Europe will
                                            really only convert to skirmishes in America there is unlikely to be a
                                            Quebec look-alike. None of the European powers gets kicked off the North
                                            American continent; there will be enclaves of French, Spaniards, Anglo-Dutch
                                            (who will probably have quarrelled and split their territory), even
                                            Russians. By the time the New World has to be called in to redress the
                                            balance of the Old it is likely to be about time for the Crimean War, which
                                            means a Franco-Anglo-Dutch alliance might well force Russia out of Alaska
                                            and Vancouver. That would then be possible; the Allies had the supremacy at
                                            sea to let it happen, and a sweeping advance into the Northwest and Pacific
                                            coasts would look a lot better than the rather sad sideshows in the Baltic
                                            and make more commercial sense (Californian and Yukon gold, anyone?)

                                            Remember that Africa has stayed strong? Maybe the African kingdoms will have
                                            supported their own Darien project in Central America and made a better job
                                            of it than the poor Scots; who knows but that they have also made a grab at
                                            the Caribbean and are profiting from the sugar that the Europeans cannot
                                            grow, with much the same economic background of free labour and indentured
                                            convicts.

                                            So there is quite a stew of interests in North America as the century comes
                                            to a close; a wary alliance in the North with the Eastern seaboard dominated
                                            by the Anglo-Dutch and Eastern Canada by the French; they either border on
                                            each other or have indigenous buffer states. I don't know how far into the
                                            plains the Anglo-Dutch have reached, so there may still be surviving
                                            indigenous nations there, but the Spanish are still in Texas and Florida and
                                            are looking greedily at the African Caribbean states. The lashed together
                                            Anglo-Dutch-French protectorate round Vancouver has not really held together
                                            with the gold rush, and the British will no doubt be trying to assert more
                                            direct sovereignty over the Californian coast through pressure from their
                                            Australian and South Seas possessions. Russia may well want to get back in
                                            to the mainland, so their quarrel with the Japanese will have to be resolved
                                            more forcefully than in OTL. The only guys I cannot get into North America
                                            by this are the Central Powers. Germany and Austro-Hungary have no interest
                                            in America. In fact, with this departure it is difficult to get Germany at
                                            all because the Revolutionary wars happen - if they happen at all - on a
                                            quite different basis and the rise of Nationalism in general and German
                                            nationalism in particular is going to be set back by a long way. I
                                            anticipate we would have to go with the Anglo-Dutch being generally
                                            favourable to the Caribbean nations, and one of those serving the cause of
                                            Belgium (of course, it could go the other way; some Anglo-Dutch concern
                                            makes a grab at a decaying Caribbean despotism and the French and Spanish
                                            have to beat them up to make them let go, with the Russians joining in
                                            whichever side looks the better bet).

                                            How's that?

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com [mailto:alternate-
                                            > history@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martian1912
                                            > Sent: 01 August 2007 00:17
                                            > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [alternate-history] British North America fights in WW1
                                            >
                                            > Hi some of you may be fans of Harry Turtledove's timeline 191 series,
                                            > well I would like to create a North America that's still in the British
                                            > Empire and fights in WW1 and like that series WW1 is fought in North
                                            > America as well,
                                            >
                                            > I need serious help?,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > LW
                                            >
                                          • Amina Arraf
                                            Exactly: say what you want abt the perfidies of Albion, but they tended to be least interested in what the ruled believed or spoke of the European empires ---
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 4 2:22 PM
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                                              Exactly:
                                              say what you want abt the perfidies of Albion, but
                                              they tended to be least interested in what the ruled
                                              believed or spoke of the European empires --- to your
                                              lists could be added all the places that they were for
                                              centuries but, in terms of faith and language,
                                              preferred to leave the locals their own tongue
                                              (India was administered in Persian well into the 19th
                                              century, with Englishmen learning Persian rather tha
                                              the other way around ...)


                                              --- Ruairi James Heekin <rurr2@...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Why was Scotland left Preybertarian
                                              > Why was Scottish law left aloneThen why was Ireland
                                              > left Catholic
                                              > Why was Quebec left Catholic
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.comFrom:
                                              > creativezenstraha@...: Thu, 2 Aug 2007
                                              > 12:49:46 +0000Subject: [alternate-history] Re:
                                              > British North America fights in WW1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Only because they had the precedent of losing
                                              > America to rebels toshow them not to be excessively
                                              > interventionistic.--- In
                                              > alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                                              > Arraf<threefoldamina@...> wrote:>> But Britain never
                                              > had much of that desire; that was> always ore the
                                              > French "Mission Civiliatrice" --> the French had
                                              > 'their' Africans and Arabs made to> learn French and
                                              > study about "notre ancetres les> Gausloises' in
                                              > school while the English pretty much> everywhere
                                              > prefered to intervene as little as> possible.> Note
                                              > that, to present, large numbers of Lebanese.>
                                              > Maghrebis, etc speak French as their primary
                                              > language> while English is largely a secondary
                                              > language in ost> ex-British colonies > > ---
                                              > otto_von_suds <creativezenstraha@...> wrote:> > >
                                              > British utopianism/desire to make everyone into> >
                                              > brown englishmen could> > very easily get ugly.
                                              > Remember without a successful> > to showcase> >
                                              > democracy forget about PArliement being as strong
                                              > as> > it is now or> > Britain being a democracy.> >
                                              > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "R"> >
                                              > <rurr2@> wrote:> > >> > > --- In
                                              > alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,> >
                                              > "otto_von_suds" > > > <creativezenstraha@> wrote:> >
                                              > > >> > > > Not inqusition. Think third reich. I see
                                              > a> > global british empire as> > > > possibly ending
                                              > up a totalitarian universal> > state complete with>
                                              > > > > militant imagery.> > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                              > Militant against whom? > > > > > > If the sun never
                                              > sets. Who is there to fight? Why> > bother making >
                                              > > > Eskimos and Pygmies kneel. > > > > > > Now I can
                                              > see an expanding beauracy. Or course> > there is NO
                                              > where to > > > run. Not to ignore Racisim. But after
                                              > a point.> > Inertia. Laziness, > > > kick in too> >
                                              > >> > > > > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              >__________________________________________________________>
                                              > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and
                                              > hotels withYahoo! FareChase.>
                                              > http://farechase.yahoo.com/>
                                              >
                                              >




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