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Re: [alternate-history] Re: CRY HAVOC! The Crooked Road to Civil War, 1861

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  • Amina Arraf
    Why the Crackdown? No war has begun ... with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves peacefully in a velvet divorce ... and if that happens once, won t
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
      Why the Crackdown?
      No war has begun ...
      with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves
      peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
      and if that happens once, won't other states and
      groups of states begin to think of repeating it?
      The same with the lincoln assasination pre-inaugration
      ...
      War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at teh helm,
      will it?


      --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
      wrote:

      > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the original
      > 7 states leave
      > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump states
      > develop into a north
      > american version of south africa as the mini-CSA's
      > whites leave for
      > the north. No black migration north.
      >
      > For the second one we see a US giivng no quarter and
      > TOTALLY
      > restructuring dixie society with massive
      > reconstruction. A good chunk
      > of the white population of dixie leaves for Cuba,
      > South Africa,
      > Brazil, France and the UK. A black population which
      > isn't repressed or
      > discriminated against conspiciously is one that will
      > not do a great
      > migration north. Northern cities are more white,
      > more asian and more
      > latin than in the real world with over 90 of blacks
      > in the south.
      > south Carolina is still 70% black.
      >
      > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
      > Arraf
      > <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > No Fort Sumter confrontation ...
      > > or lincoln is assasinated in Baltimore en route to
      > his
      > > inaugaral ...
      > >
      > >
      > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > > Disagree. I see the only plausible breakaway
      > states
      > > > in 1861 being
      > > > Dixie as a unified nation and Utah. IT would be
      > > > interesting to see
      > > > such a scenario of the US imploding but I don't
      > see
      > > > it as being likely.
      > > >
      > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
      > > > Arraf
      > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I've always wondered what would have happened
      > in a
      > > > > multi-way split in 1861:
      > > > > if Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky,
      > > > Tennessee,
      > > > > North Carolina, Arkansas, and Missouri had
      > split
      > > > off
      > > > > and formed a second breakaway confederacy ...
      > > > > and with the loss of both upper and lower
      > souths
      > > > > whether more would have followed (a pacific
      > > > > confederacy of Californai and Oregon, new
      > > > republics in
      > > > > Utah and Oklahoma, Texas going its own way ...
      > New
      > > > > England splitting ...) so that 1861 looks more
      > > > like
      > > > > the Soviet Union in 1991 ...
      > > > >
      > > > > --- Jacques Presseault <jacquespresseault@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > Worth consideration:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > CRY HAVOC!
      > > > > > The Crooked Road to Civil War, 1861
      > > > > > By Nelson D. Lankford
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Illustrated. 308 pages. Viking. $27.95.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/books/31grim.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Mr. Lankford proposes a final what-if. What
      > if
      > > > the
      > > > > > eight states of the upper
      > > > > > South had all gone the same way? If they had
      > all
      > > > > > seceded, he argues, the
      > > > > > North would probably not have been able to
      > > > defeat
      > > > > > the Confederacy. If they
      > > > > > had all stayed, the war would have been over
      > > > very
      > > > > > quickly.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "The tragedy for the country was that the
      > upper
      > > > > > South split roughly down the
      > > > > > middle," he writes, the very outcome
      > guaranteed
      > > > to
      > > > > > prolong the conflict as
      > > > > > long as possible.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Of course, no one knew this, or anything
      > else,
      > > > for
      > > > > > that matter. As one
      > > > > > newspaper writer put it on April 19, 1861,
      > > > "Three
      > > > > > months ago a person would
      > > > > > have been regarded as a madman who had
      > predicted
      > > > the
      > > > > > present state of
      > > > > > affairs."
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      _________________________________________________________________
      > > > > > Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN
      > Music
      > > > Store
      > > > > > works seamlessly with
      > > > > > Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
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      > > >
      > >
      >
      http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >
      > > > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      mailto:alternate-history-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > > > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to
      > love
      > > > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty
      > Pleasures
      > > > list.
      > > > > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
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      >




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    • fleetlord_straha
      Public backlash in the north will generate anti-secession ferver even before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is dry. THey can ATTEMPT it probably not to
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
        Public backlash in the north will generate anti-secession ferver even
        before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is dry. THey can ATTEMPT
        it probably not to much success. Enough said.

        --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
        <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
        >
        > Why the Crackdown?
        > No war has begun ...
        > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves
        > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
        > and if that happens once, won't other states and
        > groups of states begin to think of repeating it?
        > The same with the lincoln assasination pre-inaugration
        > ...
        > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at teh helm,
        > will it?
        >
        >
        > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the original
        > > 7 states leave
        > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump states
        > > develop into a north
        > > american version of south africa as the mini-CSA's
        > > whites leave for
        > > the north. No black migration north.
        > >
        > > For the second one we see a US giivng no quarter and
        > > TOTALLY
        > > restructuring dixie society with massive
        > > reconstruction. A good chunk
        > > of the white population of dixie leaves for Cuba,
        > > South Africa,
        > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black population which
        > > isn't repressed or
        > > discriminated against conspiciously is one that will
        > > not do a great
        > > migration north. Northern cities are more white,
        > > more asian and more
        > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of blacks
        > > in the south.
        > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
        > >
        > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
        > > Arraf
        > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > No Fort Sumter confrontation ...
        > > > or lincoln is assasinated in Baltimore en route to
        > > his
        > > > inaugaral ...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Disagree. I see the only plausible breakaway
        > > states
        > > > > in 1861 being
        > > > > Dixie as a unified nation and Utah. IT would be
        > > > > interesting to see
        > > > > such a scenario of the US imploding but I don't
        > > see
        > > > > it as being likely.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
        > > > > Arraf
        > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I've always wondered what would have happened
        > > in a
        > > > > > multi-way split in 1861:
        > > > > > if Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky,
        > > > > Tennessee,
        > > > > > North Carolina, Arkansas, and Missouri had
        > > split
        > > > > off
        > > > > > and formed a second breakaway confederacy ...
        > > > > > and with the loss of both upper and lower
        > > souths
        > > > > > whether more would have followed (a pacific
        > > > > > confederacy of Californai and Oregon, new
        > > > > republics in
        > > > > > Utah and Oklahoma, Texas going its own way ...
        > > New
        > > > > > England splitting ...) so that 1861 looks more
        > > > > like
        > > > > > the Soviet Union in 1991 ...
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- Jacques Presseault <jacquespresseault@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Worth consideration:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > CRY HAVOC!
        > > > > > > The Crooked Road to Civil War, 1861
        > > > > > > By Nelson D. Lankford
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Illustrated. 308 pages. Viking. $27.95.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/books/31grim.html
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Mr. Lankford proposes a final what-if. What
        > > if
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > eight states of the upper
        > > > > > > South had all gone the same way? If they had
        > > all
        > > > > > > seceded, he argues, the
        > > > > > > North would probably not have been able to
        > > > > defeat
        > > > > > > the Confederacy. If they
        > > > > > > had all stayed, the war would have been over
        > > > > very
        > > > > > > quickly.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > "The tragedy for the country was that the
        > > upper
        > > > > > > South split roughly down the
        > > > > > > middle," he writes, the very outcome
        > > guaranteed
        > > > > to
        > > > > > > prolong the conflict as
        > > > > > > long as possible.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Of course, no one knew this, or anything
        > > else,
        > > > > for
        > > > > > > that matter. As one
        > > > > > > newspaper writer put it on April 19, 1861,
        > > > > "Three
        > > > > > > months ago a person would
        > > > > > > have been regarded as a madman who had
        > > predicted
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > present state of
        > > > > > > affairs."
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > > > > > > Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN
        > > Music
        > > > > Store
        > > > > > > works seamlessly with
        > > > > > > Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > mailto:alternate-history-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > > > > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to
        > > love
        > > > > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty
        > > Pleasures
        > > > > list.
        > > > > > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
        > > beta.
        > > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.
        Try it now.
        >
      • Amina Arraf
        I don t know; Lincoln wasn t all that popular and an assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a hotheaded Marylander, wouldn t likely lead to much ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
          I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular and an
          assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a
          hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to much ...
          beyond a major deepening of the constitutional crisis
          ...

          --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
          wrote:

          > Public backlash in the north will generate
          > anti-secession ferver even
          > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is dry.
          > THey can ATTEMPT
          > it probably not to much success. Enough said.
          >
          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
          > Arraf
          > <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Why the Crackdown?
          > > No war has begun ...
          > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves
          > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
          > > and if that happens once, won't other states and
          > > groups of states begin to think of repeating it?
          > > The same with the lincoln assasination
          > pre-inaugration
          > > ...
          > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at teh
          > helm,
          > > will it?
          > >
          > >
          > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the
          > original
          > > > 7 states leave
          > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump states
          > > > develop into a north
          > > > american version of south africa as the
          > mini-CSA's
          > > > whites leave for
          > > > the north. No black migration north.
          > > >
          > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no quarter
          > and
          > > > TOTALLY
          > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
          > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
          > > > of the white population of dixie leaves for
          > Cuba,
          > > > South Africa,
          > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black population
          > which
          > > > isn't repressed or
          > > > discriminated against conspiciously is one that
          > will
          > > > not do a great
          > > > migration north. Northern cities are more white,
          > > > more asian and more
          > > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of
          > blacks
          > > > in the south.
          > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
          > > >
          > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
          > > > Arraf
          > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > No Fort Sumter confrontation ...
          > > > > or lincoln is assasinated in Baltimore en
          > route to
          > > > his
          > > > > inaugaral ...
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > Disagree. I see the only plausible breakaway
          > > > states
          > > > > > in 1861 being
          > > > > > Dixie as a unified nation and Utah. IT would
          > be
          > > > > > interesting to see
          > > > > > such a scenario of the US imploding but I
          > don't
          > > > see
          > > > > > it as being likely.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
          > Amina
          > > > > > Arraf
          > > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I've always wondered what would have
          > happened
          > > > in a
          > > > > > > multi-way split in 1861:
          > > > > > > if Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky,
          > > > > > Tennessee,
          > > > > > > North Carolina, Arkansas, and Missouri had
          > > > split
          > > > > > off
          > > > > > > and formed a second breakaway confederacy
          > ...
          > > > > > > and with the loss of both upper and lower
          > > > souths
          > > > > > > whether more would have followed (a
          > pacific
          > > > > > > confederacy of Californai and Oregon, new
          > > > > > republics in
          > > > > > > Utah and Oklahoma, Texas going its own way
          > ...
          > > > New
          > > > > > > England splitting ...) so that 1861 looks
          > more
          > > > > > like
          > > > > > > the Soviet Union in 1991 ...
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- Jacques Presseault
          > <jacquespresseault@>
          > > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Worth consideration:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > CRY HAVOC!
          > > > > > > > The Crooked Road to Civil War, 1861
          > > > > > > > By Nelson D. Lankford
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Illustrated. 308 pages. Viking. $27.95.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > >
          > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/books/31grim.html
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Mr. Lankford proposes a final what-if.
          > What
          > > > if
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > eight states of the upper
          > > > > > > > South had all gone the same way? If they
          > had
          > > > all
          > > > > > > > seceded, he argues, the
          > > > > > > > North would probably not have been able
          > to
          > > > > > defeat
          > > > > > > > the Confederacy. If they
          > > > > > > > had all stayed, the war would have been
          > over
          > > > > > very
          > > > > > > > quickly.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > "The tragedy for the country was that
          > the
          > > > upper
          > > > > > > > South split roughly down the
          > > > > > > > middle," he writes, the very outcome
          > > > guaranteed
          > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > prolong the conflict as
          > > > > > > > long as possible.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Of course, no one knew this, or anything
          > > > else,
          > > > > > for
          > > > > > > > that matter. As one
          > > > > > > > newspaper writer put it on April 19,
          > 1861,
          > > > > > "Three
          > > > > > > > months ago a person would
          > > > > > > > have been regarded as a madman who had
          > > > predicted
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > present state of
          > > > > > > > affairs."
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > > > > > > > Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN
          > > > Music
          > > > > > Store
          > > > > > > > works seamlessly with
          > > > > > > > Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          >
          === message truncated ===




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        • fleetlord_straha
          That could be. It could go either way. I just see backlash as more likely IMO. ... http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2007
            That could be. It could go either way. I just see backlash as more
            likely IMO.

            --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
            <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular and an
            > assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a
            > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to much ...
            > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional crisis
            > ...
            >
            > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > Public backlash in the north will generate
            > > anti-secession ferver even
            > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is dry.
            > > THey can ATTEMPT
            > > it probably not to much success. Enough said.
            > >
            > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
            > > Arraf
            > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Why the Crackdown?
            > > > No war has begun ...
            > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves
            > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
            > > > and if that happens once, won't other states and
            > > > groups of states begin to think of repeating it?
            > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
            > > pre-inaugration
            > > > ...
            > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at teh
            > > helm,
            > > > will it?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the
            > > original
            > > > > 7 states leave
            > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump states
            > > > > develop into a north
            > > > > american version of south africa as the
            > > mini-CSA's
            > > > > whites leave for
            > > > > the north. No black migration north.
            > > > >
            > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no quarter
            > > and
            > > > > TOTALLY
            > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
            > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
            > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves for
            > > Cuba,
            > > > > South Africa,
            > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black population
            > > which
            > > > > isn't repressed or
            > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is one that
            > > will
            > > > > not do a great
            > > > > migration north. Northern cities are more white,
            > > > > more asian and more
            > > > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of
            > > blacks
            > > > > in the south.
            > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
            > > > > Arraf
            > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > No Fort Sumter confrontation ...
            > > > > > or lincoln is assasinated in Baltimore en
            > > route to
            > > > > his
            > > > > > inaugaral ...
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
            > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > > Disagree. I see the only plausible breakaway
            > > > > states
            > > > > > > in 1861 being
            > > > > > > Dixie as a unified nation and Utah. IT would
            > > be
            > > > > > > interesting to see
            > > > > > > such a scenario of the US imploding but I
            > > don't
            > > > > see
            > > > > > > it as being likely.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
            > > Amina
            > > > > > > Arraf
            > > > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I've always wondered what would have
            > > happened
            > > > > in a
            > > > > > > > multi-way split in 1861:
            > > > > > > > if Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky,
            > > > > > > Tennessee,
            > > > > > > > North Carolina, Arkansas, and Missouri had
            > > > > split
            > > > > > > off
            > > > > > > > and formed a second breakaway confederacy
            > > ...
            > > > > > > > and with the loss of both upper and lower
            > > > > souths
            > > > > > > > whether more would have followed (a
            > > pacific
            > > > > > > > confederacy of Californai and Oregon, new
            > > > > > > republics in
            > > > > > > > Utah and Oklahoma, Texas going its own way
            > > ...
            > > > > New
            > > > > > > > England splitting ...) so that 1861 looks
            > > more
            > > > > > > like
            > > > > > > > the Soviet Union in 1991 ...
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- Jacques Presseault
            > > <jacquespresseault@>
            > > > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Worth consideration:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > CRY HAVOC!
            > > > > > > > > The Crooked Road to Civil War, 1861
            > > > > > > > > By Nelson D. Lankford
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Illustrated. 308 pages. Viking. $27.95.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/books/31grim.html
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Mr. Lankford proposes a final what-if.
            > > What
            > > > > if
            > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > > > eight states of the upper
            > > > > > > > > South had all gone the same way? If they
            > > had
            > > > > all
            > > > > > > > > seceded, he argues, the
            > > > > > > > > North would probably not have been able
            > > to
            > > > > > > defeat
            > > > > > > > > the Confederacy. If they
            > > > > > > > > had all stayed, the war would have been
            > > over
            > > > > > > very
            > > > > > > > > quickly.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > "The tragedy for the country was that
            > > the
            > > > > upper
            > > > > > > > > South split roughly down the
            > > > > > > > > middle," he writes, the very outcome
            > > > > guaranteed
            > > > > > > to
            > > > > > > > > prolong the conflict as
            > > > > > > > > long as possible.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Of course, no one knew this, or anything
            > > > > else,
            > > > > > > for
            > > > > > > > > that matter. As one
            > > > > > > > > newspaper writer put it on April 19,
            > > 1861,
            > > > > > > "Three
            > > > > > > > > months ago a person would
            > > > > > > > > have been regarded as a madman who had
            > > > > predicted
            > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > > > present state of
            > > > > > > > > affairs."
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > > > > > > > > Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN
            > > > > Music
            > > > > > > Store
            > > > > > > > > works seamlessly with
            > > > > > > > > Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > >
            > === message truncated ===
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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          • H. Torrance Griffin
            Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a bunch of states dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the country over an election they did not like is
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
              Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a bunch of states
              dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the country over an
              election they did not like is not a very popular precident in the
              North and West. At the very least expect a Constitutional Amendment
              to make things explicit within a decade.

              HTG

              --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
              <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular and an
              > assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a
              > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to much ...
              > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional crisis
              > ...
              >
              > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Public backlash in the north will generate
              > > anti-secession ferver even
              > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is dry.
              > > THey can ATTEMPT
              > > it probably not to much success. Enough said.
              > >
              > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
              > > Arraf
              > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Why the Crackdown?
              > > > No war has begun ...
              > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states leaves
              > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
              > > > and if that happens once, won't other states and
              > > > groups of states begin to think of repeating it?
              > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
              > > pre-inaugration
              > > > ...
              > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at teh
              > > helm,
              > > > will it?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the
              > > original
              > > > > 7 states leave
              > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump states
              > > > > develop into a north
              > > > > american version of south africa as the
              > > mini-CSA's
              > > > > whites leave for
              > > > > the north. No black migration north.
              > > > >
              > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no quarter
              > > and
              > > > > TOTALLY
              > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
              > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
              > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves for
              > > Cuba,
              > > > > South Africa,
              > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black population
              > > which
              > > > > isn't repressed or
              > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is one that
              > > will
              > > > > not do a great
              > > > > migration north. Northern cities are more white,
              > > > > more asian and more
              > > > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of
              > > blacks
              > > > > in the south.
              > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
              > > > >
            • Amina Arraf
              I don t know; I suspect that once one peaceful secession happens, others will follow (especially as, with the lower Mississippi in another country, trade
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
                I don't know; I suspect that once one peaceful
                secession happens, others will follow (especially as,
                with the lower Mississippi in another country, trade
                routes will have become internationalized). The Far
                West, etc will have their own reasons to go

                also as, once the lower south leaves, the power of the
                northeast becomes greater (the senate alone decreases
                by 14 mainly dems), so other regions (like the upper
                south, the west) will find it even harder to press
                their interests.

                I suspect that within a decade of teh first peaceful
                secession, everyone is gone (look at the USSR, once
                the baltics left, or Yugoslavia once Slovenia was
                gone)
                --- "H. Torrance Griffin" <htgriffin@...> wrote:

                > Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a bunch
                > of states
                > dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the
                > country over an
                > election they did not like is not a very popular
                > precident in the
                > North and West. At the very least expect a
                > Constitutional Amendment
                > to make things explicit within a decade.
                >
                > HTG
                >
                > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                > Arraf
                > <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular and
                > an
                > > assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a
                > > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to much
                > ...
                > > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional
                > crisis
                > > ...
                > >
                > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > > > Public backlash in the north will generate
                > > > anti-secession ferver even
                > > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is
                > dry.
                > > > THey can ATTEMPT
                > > > it probably not to much success. Enough said.
                > > >
                > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                > > > Arraf
                > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Why the Crackdown?
                > > > > No war has begun ...
                > > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states
                > leaves
                > > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
                > > > > and if that happens once, won't other states
                > and
                > > > > groups of states begin to think of repeating
                > it?
                > > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
                > > > pre-inaugration
                > > > > ...
                > > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at
                > teh
                > > > helm,
                > > > > will it?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the
                > > > original
                > > > > > 7 states leave
                > > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump
                > states
                > > > > > develop into a north
                > > > > > american version of south africa as the
                > > > mini-CSA's
                > > > > > whites leave for
                > > > > > the north. No black migration north.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no
                > quarter
                > > > and
                > > > > > TOTALLY
                > > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
                > > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
                > > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves for
                > > > Cuba,
                > > > > > South Africa,
                > > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black
                > population
                > > > which
                > > > > > isn't repressed or
                > > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is one
                > that
                > > > will
                > > > > > not do a great
                > > > > > migration north. Northern cities are more
                > white,
                > > > > > more asian and more
                > > > > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of
                > > > blacks
                > > > > > in the south.
                > > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
                > > > > >
                >
                >




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • fleetlord_straha
                The US back then was not the 1997 SSSR. Dixie was the only region with the cultural/political spectrum differences to want to leave. Even then much of the
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
                  The US back then was not the 1997 SSSR. Dixie was the only region with
                  the cultural/political spectrum differences to want to leave. Even
                  then much of the upper south almost didn't leave.

                  --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                  <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't know; I suspect that once one peaceful
                  > secession happens, others will follow (especially as,
                  > with the lower Mississippi in another country, trade
                  > routes will have become internationalized). The Far
                  > West, etc will have their own reasons to go
                  >
                  > also as, once the lower south leaves, the power of the
                  > northeast becomes greater (the senate alone decreases
                  > by 14 mainly dems), so other regions (like the upper
                  > south, the west) will find it even harder to press
                  > their interests.
                  >
                  > I suspect that within a decade of teh first peaceful
                  > secession, everyone is gone (look at the USSR, once
                  > the baltics left, or Yugoslavia once Slovenia was
                  > gone)
                  > --- "H. Torrance Griffin" <htgriffin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a bunch
                  > > of states
                  > > dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the
                  > > country over an
                  > > election they did not like is not a very popular
                  > > precident in the
                  > > North and West. At the very least expect a
                  > > Constitutional Amendment
                  > > to make things explicit within a decade.
                  > >
                  > > HTG
                  > >
                  > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                  > > Arraf
                  > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular and
                  > > an
                  > > > assasin not linked to anyone in particular, just a
                  > > > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to much
                  > > ...
                  > > > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional
                  > > crisis
                  > > > ...
                  > > >
                  > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Public backlash in the north will generate
                  > > > > anti-secession ferver even
                  > > > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty is
                  > > dry.
                  > > > > THey can ATTEMPT
                  > > > > it probably not to much success. Enough said.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                  > > > > Arraf
                  > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Why the Crackdown?
                  > > > > > No war has begun ...
                  > > > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states
                  > > leaves
                  > > > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
                  > > > > > and if that happens once, won't other states
                  > > and
                  > > > > > groups of states begin to think of repeating
                  > > it?
                  > > > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
                  > > > > pre-inaugration
                  > > > > > ...
                  > > > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln at
                  > > teh
                  > > > > helm,
                  > > > > > will it?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                  > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets the
                  > > > > original
                  > > > > > > 7 states leave
                  > > > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump
                  > > states
                  > > > > > > develop into a north
                  > > > > > > american version of south africa as the
                  > > > > mini-CSA's
                  > > > > > > whites leave for
                  > > > > > > the north. No black migration north.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no
                  > > quarter
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > > TOTALLY
                  > > > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
                  > > > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
                  > > > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves for
                  > > > > Cuba,
                  > > > > > > South Africa,
                  > > > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black
                  > > population
                  > > > > which
                  > > > > > > isn't repressed or
                  > > > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is one
                  > > that
                  > > > > will
                  > > > > > > not do a great
                  > > > > > > migration north. Northern cities are more
                  > > white,
                  > > > > > > more asian and more
                  > > > > > > latin than in the real world with over 90 of
                  > > > > blacks
                  > > > > > > in the south.
                  > > > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
                  > > > > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > The fish are biting.
                  > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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                • Amina Arraf
                  But, in 1990, neither did quite a number of SSR s (Belarus, Kazakhstan especially but also several others). Once the central gov t starts collapsing, though,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
                    But, in 1990, neither did quite a number of SSR's
                    (Belarus, Kazakhstan especially but also several
                    others).
                    Once the central gov't starts collapsing, though,
                    events take on their own inertia.
                    If, in 1860, one section unhappy with a preseidential
                    election leaves peacably, every four years will see
                    the possibility of the losers taking off on their own
                    (imagine how many states would have considered
                    secession in 2004, 2000, 1996, 1964, 1960, etc, if it
                    had been considered a reasonable option ...
                    once it's happened over slavery, expect any
                    controversial issue to spark a new wave (taxes too
                    high? Time to leave ...)

                    --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
                    wrote:

                    > The US back then was not the 1997 SSSR. Dixie was
                    > the only region with
                    > the cultural/political spectrum differences to want
                    > to leave. Even
                    > then much of the upper south almost didn't leave.
                    >
                    > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                    > Arraf
                    > <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I don't know; I suspect that once one peaceful
                    > > secession happens, others will follow (especially
                    > as,
                    > > with the lower Mississippi in another country,
                    > trade
                    > > routes will have become internationalized). The
                    > Far
                    > > West, etc will have their own reasons to go
                    > >
                    > > also as, once the lower south leaves, the power of
                    > the
                    > > northeast becomes greater (the senate alone
                    > decreases
                    > > by 14 mainly dems), so other regions (like the
                    > upper
                    > > south, the west) will find it even harder to press
                    > > their interests.
                    > >
                    > > I suspect that within a decade of teh first
                    > peaceful
                    > > secession, everyone is gone (look at the USSR,
                    > once
                    > > the baltics left, or Yugoslavia once Slovenia was
                    > > gone)
                    > > --- "H. Torrance Griffin" <htgriffin@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a
                    > bunch
                    > > > of states
                    > > > dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the
                    > > > country over an
                    > > > election they did not like is not a very popular
                    > > > precident in the
                    > > > North and West. At the very least expect a
                    > > > Constitutional Amendment
                    > > > to make things explicit within a decade.
                    > > >
                    > > > HTG
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                    > > > Arraf
                    > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular
                    > and
                    > > > an
                    > > > > assasin not linked to anyone in particular,
                    > just a
                    > > > > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to
                    > much
                    > > > ...
                    > > > > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional
                    > > > crisis
                    > > > > ...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Public backlash in the north will generate
                    > > > > > anti-secession ferver even
                    > > > > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty
                    > is
                    > > > dry.
                    > > > > > THey can ATTEMPT
                    > > > > > it probably not to much success. Enough
                    > said.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                    > Amina
                    > > > > > Arraf
                    > > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Why the Crackdown?
                    > > > > > > No war has begun ...
                    > > > > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states
                    > > > leaves
                    > > > > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
                    > > > > > > and if that happens once, won't other
                    > states
                    > > > and
                    > > > > > > groups of states begin to think of
                    > repeating
                    > > > it?
                    > > > > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
                    > > > > > pre-inaugration
                    > > > > > > ...
                    > > > > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln
                    > at
                    > > > teh
                    > > > > > helm,
                    > > > > > > will it?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets
                    > the
                    > > > > > original
                    > > > > > > > 7 states leave
                    > > > > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump
                    > > > states
                    > > > > > > > develop into a north
                    > > > > > > > american version of south africa as the
                    > > > > > mini-CSA's
                    > > > > > > > whites leave for
                    > > > > > > > the north. No black migration north.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no
                    > > > quarter
                    > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > TOTALLY
                    > > > > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
                    > > > > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
                    > > > > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves
                    > for
                    > > > > > Cuba,
                    > > > > > > > South Africa,
                    > > > > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black
                    > > > population
                    > > > > > which
                    > > > > > > > isn't repressed or
                    > > > > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is
                    > one
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > will
                    > > > > > > > not do a great
                    > > > > > > > migration north. Northern cities are
                    > more
                    > > > white,
                    > > > > > > > more asian and more
                    > > > > > > > latin than in the real world with over
                    > 90 of
                    > > > > > blacks
                    > > > > > > > in the south.
                    > > > > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > > The fish are biting.
                    > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search
                    > Marketing.
                    > >
                    >
                    http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                  • fleetlord_straha
                    Its not collapsing if a region which had long since threatened to leave does so. I see a US psot velvet divorce secession of the south as quickly
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 2, 2007
                      Its not collapsing if a region which had long since threatened to
                      leave does so. I see a US psot "velvet divorce" secession of the south
                      as quickly centralizing faster than in OTL.

                      --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                      <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > But, in 1990, neither did quite a number of SSR's
                      > (Belarus, Kazakhstan especially but also several
                      > others).
                      > Once the central gov't starts collapsing, though,
                      > events take on their own inertia.
                      > If, in 1860, one section unhappy with a preseidential
                      > election leaves peacably, every four years will see
                      > the possibility of the losers taking off on their own
                      > (imagine how many states would have considered
                      > secession in 2004, 2000, 1996, 1964, 1960, etc, if it
                      > had been considered a reasonable option ...
                      > once it's happened over slavery, expect any
                      > controversial issue to spark a new wave (taxes too
                      > high? Time to leave ...)
                      >
                      > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > The US back then was not the 1997 SSSR. Dixie was
                      > > the only region with
                      > > the cultural/political spectrum differences to want
                      > > to leave. Even
                      > > then much of the upper south almost didn't leave.
                      > >
                      > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                      > > Arraf
                      > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I don't know; I suspect that once one peaceful
                      > > > secession happens, others will follow (especially
                      > > as,
                      > > > with the lower Mississippi in another country,
                      > > trade
                      > > > routes will have become internationalized). The
                      > > Far
                      > > > West, etc will have their own reasons to go
                      > > >
                      > > > also as, once the lower south leaves, the power of
                      > > the
                      > > > northeast becomes greater (the senate alone
                      > > decreases
                      > > > by 14 mainly dems), so other regions (like the
                      > > upper
                      > > > south, the west) will find it even harder to press
                      > > > their interests.
                      > > >
                      > > > I suspect that within a decade of teh first
                      > > peaceful
                      > > > secession, everyone is gone (look at the USSR,
                      > > once
                      > > > the baltics left, or Yugoslavia once Slovenia was
                      > > > gone)
                      > > > --- "H. Torrance Griffin" <htgriffin@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Even in a Best Case Scenario, the specter of a
                      > > bunch
                      > > > > of states
                      > > > > dominated by wannabe Gentry storming out of the
                      > > > > country over an
                      > > > > election they did not like is not a very popular
                      > > > > precident in the
                      > > > > North and West. At the very least expect a
                      > > > > Constitutional Amendment
                      > > > > to make things explicit within a decade.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > HTG
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                      > > > > Arraf
                      > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I don't know; Lincoln wasn't all that popular
                      > > and
                      > > > > an
                      > > > > > assasin not linked to anyone in particular,
                      > > just a
                      > > > > > hotheaded Marylander, wouldn't likely lead to
                      > > much
                      > > > > ...
                      > > > > > beyond a major deepening of the constitutional
                      > > > > crisis
                      > > > > > ...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Public backlash in the north will generate
                      > > > > > > anti-secession ferver even
                      > > > > > > before the pink on the US-rump dixie treaty
                      > > is
                      > > > > dry.
                      > > > > > > THey can ATTEMPT
                      > > > > > > it probably not to much success. Enough
                      > > said.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > Amina
                      > > > > > > Arraf
                      > > > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Why the Crackdown?
                      > > > > > > > No war has begun ...
                      > > > > > > > with no Fort Sumter, the CSA of 7 states
                      > > > > leaves
                      > > > > > > > peacefully in a 'velvet divorce' ...
                      > > > > > > > and if that happens once, won't other
                      > > states
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > groups of states begin to think of
                      > > repeating
                      > > > > it?
                      > > > > > > > The same with the lincoln assasination
                      > > > > > > pre-inaugration
                      > > > > > > > ...
                      > > > > > > > War hasn't begun and ... with no lincoln
                      > > at
                      > > > > teh
                      > > > > > > helm,
                      > > > > > > > will it?
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- fleetlord_straha <creativezenstraha@>
                      > > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > For the first one no ACW as the US lets
                      > > the
                      > > > > > > original
                      > > > > > > > > 7 states leave
                      > > > > > > > > and cracks down on the rest. The 7 rump
                      > > > > states
                      > > > > > > > > develop into a north
                      > > > > > > > > american version of south africa as the
                      > > > > > > mini-CSA's
                      > > > > > > > > whites leave for
                      > > > > > > > > the north. No black migration north.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > For the second one we see a US giivng no
                      > > > > quarter
                      > > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > TOTALLY
                      > > > > > > > > restructuring dixie society with massive
                      > > > > > > > > reconstruction. A good chunk
                      > > > > > > > > of the white population of dixie leaves
                      > > for
                      > > > > > > Cuba,
                      > > > > > > > > South Africa,
                      > > > > > > > > Brazil, France and the UK. A black
                      > > > > population
                      > > > > > > which
                      > > > > > > > > isn't repressed or
                      > > > > > > > > discriminated against conspiciously is
                      > > one
                      > > > > that
                      > > > > > > will
                      > > > > > > > > not do a great
                      > > > > > > > > migration north. Northern cities are
                      > > more
                      > > > > white,
                      > > > > > > > > more asian and more
                      > > > > > > > > latin than in the real world with over
                      > > 90 of
                      > > > > > > blacks
                      > > > > > > > > in the south.
                      > > > > > > > > south Carolina is still 70% black.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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