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Re: [alternate-history] Re: Rex Hibernie et Scotie

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  • Amina Arraf
    wouldn t it be Regis Hiberniae Scotiaeque or (to go by Scots coins) Regnum Hibernorum Scotorumque ? Ami ...
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 1, 2006
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      wouldn't it be "Regis Hiberniae Scotiaeque" or (to go
      by Scots coins) "Regnum Hibernorum Scotorumque" ?

      Ami

      --- jacklifton@... wrote:

      > Shouldn't this be:
      >
      > Rex Hiberniae et Scotiae, King of Ireland and of
      > Scotland?
      >
      > or are you saying
      >
      > Regnum Hiberinarum et Scotiarum, Kingdom of Ireland
      > and of Scotland?
      >
      > Jack Lifton
      >


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    • Amina Arraf
      A stronger Scotland would probably end up holding onto more of Northumberland and the border between the two kingdoms might end up at the Wall or even further
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 1, 2006
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        A stronger Scotland would probably end up holding onto
        more of Northumberland and the border between the two
        kingdoms might end up at the Wall or even further
        south ... which would make the northern kingdom even
        more "english" (well, really Scots) in language and
        increase the lowlands as % of the kingdom ...

        Ami

        --- Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:

        > ---
        >
        >
        > Thought about this again.
        >
        > OTOH, the Borderers hail from the shadow of
        > Roxbrugh, Jedbrugh. The
        > great border abbeys. The Irish church is very
        > monastic.
        >
        > Something there I think
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "Ruairi"
        > <rurr2@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
        > Arraf
        > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > So possibly two kingdoms in the British Isles?
        > > > One, in the north, in scotland plus Ulster and
        > the
        > > > Other, England, Wales and Leinster ...
        > > > The Scotch settlement in Down and Antrim started
        > > > before 1600 so something analagous might happen.
        > > > Northern ireland speaks a lallans form like
        > Ullans and
        > > > is more Presbyterian already when the Crowns
        > unite.
        > > >
        > > > Ami
        > > >
        > >
        > > Possibly.
        > >
        > > However.
        > > This is an extra drain on the Scottish crown. It
        > might also
        > distract
        > > the English from France, and have them sweep
        > North.
        > > Peversely it strengthens the Pale, as it means
        > that their less of
        > a
        > > frontier zone. Yet also means the face Scottish
        > raids. A major,
        > > source of income for Edinbrugh
        > > Not all Scots became Preysbertarian.
        > Episcopalianism, held on
        > > arround Aberdeen. Hence Kings College-
        > >
        > > Pre 1600 Scotch Settlement were Gaelic speaking
        > Highlanders- The
        > Red
        > > shanks and Galloglasses. The people who speak
        > Irish with a slight
        > > Scotch accent.
        > >
        > > In fact this could come back to haunt the Stuarts.
        > Imagine an O
        > > Neill, who is an over mighty subject in the North
        > Channel, Now
        > with
        > > a Blood line to the Bruces. Leading An Irish and
        > Highlander force,
        > > with the Aberdeen lords turning out for him,
        > supported by the
        > > French. In the name of the Old religion
        > >
        > > It makes a broader Scotland.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Amina Arraf
        The settelements in Down, I think, were largely lallans and go back before the Union of Crowns ... I think a separate Scottish province in Ulster might lead to
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 1, 2006
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          The settelements in Down, I think, were largely
          lallans and go back before the Union of Crowns ...
          I think a separate Scottish province in Ulster might
          lead to most people seeing Hibernia as encompassing at
          least two 'kingdoms'; Ulster and Ireland, from an
          early time ... Carrickfergus might become a major city
          in time as capital of Ulster.
          Presumably, the King of Scotland & Ulster would find
          himself fighting wars against the western earls (in
          Tyrone and Donegal).
          The south would be more rapidly Anglicized too ... the
          Pale extended westward faster and more 'civilzed'
          Irish, anglo-Irish in the South. Presumably, both
          Scots and english kings would use 'their' wild Irish
          against each other.
          The Reformation may be more successful in Ireland in
          this world with a more pacified Ireland earlier, N &
          S.
          The Highland Scots (who are the main Anglicans and
          Catholics) may be more isolated with Ulster cut off
          ...

          Ami

          --- Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:

          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
          > Arraf
          > <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > So possibly two kingdoms in the British Isles?
          > > One, in the north, in scotland plus Ulster and the
          > > Other, England, Wales and Leinster ...
          > > The Scotch settlement in Down and Antrim started
          > > before 1600 so something analagous might happen.
          > > Northern ireland speaks a lallans form like Ullans
          > and
          > > is more Presbyterian already when the Crowns
          > unite.
          > >
          > > Ami
          > >
          >
          > Possibly.
          >
          > However.
          > This is an extra drain on the Scottish crown. It
          > might also distract
          > the English from France, and have them sweep North.
          > Peversely it strengthens the Pale, as it means that
          > their less of a
          > frontier zone. Yet also means the face Scottish
          > raids. A major,
          > source of income for Edinbrugh
          > Not all Scots became Preysbertarian.
          > Episcopalianism, held on
          > arround Aberdeen. Hence Kings College-
          >
          > Pre 1600 Scotch Settlement were Gaelic speaking
          > Highlanders- The Red
          > shanks and Galloglasses. The people who speak Irish
          > with a slight
          > Scotch accent.
          >
          > In fact this could come back to haunt the Stuarts.
          > Imagine an O
          > Neill, who is an over mighty subject in the North
          > Channel, Now with
          > a Blood line to the Bruces. Leading An Irish and
          > Highlander force,
          > with the Aberdeen lords turning out for him,
          > supported by the
          > French. In the name of the Old religion
          >
          > It makes a broader Scotland.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Ruairi
          Down, was colonised arround 1600. It was the stronghold of the de Courceys.Norman, Old English, Sean Gall. Hence the surnames Savage Russell come from there.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 1, 2006
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            Down, was colonised arround 1600.
            It was the stronghold of the de Courceys.Norman, Old English, Sean
            Gall. Hence the surnames Savage Russell come from there. Bruces
            father in law is a Decourcy. Hamilton, and the sale of Conn
            O'Neills lands. Conn, had supported the English crown during the 9
            years war, and lost everything. Hence O'Neills of Shane Castle. O
            Neill the Northern Irish PM IIRC hails from there. Elizabeth kept, a
            few ships to keep the Scots out.

            BTW Bulk of scotch settlement were as servitors not undertakers.
            They had to swear an oath of supremacy to the English crown. First
            Preysbertary in Uldah. Was founded by Chaplains from the Scottish
            army which Eoin Ruadh destroyed.

            It is likely Carrickfergus is at least a town. (Irish did not see
            the point) Also it was attacked by James V fleet.

            Core of this Kingdom, is Gaelic-Norman-Scots. O'Neill, O Donnell
            feud, will be ended quickly. OTOH, the Lowlanders were popular for
            use in Ireland. They were considerered unreliable elsewhere. A
            notable contrast with the Gaelic levies the English used in Scotland
            and France. MacMorris in shakespeare. Not Armstrong. So the Scotch
            Irish settle in East Donegal earlier. However they are also settled
            with Gallowglasses, and probably a few Continetal Jeunes.


            The Norman element may be important. The Kildares were constantly
            meddling in English politics. They never forgot that link, yet they
            were prepared, to have Gaelic bards on their payroll. In a way
            Scottish kings did not. The Lowlanders did not trust James V for
            speaking Gaelic. Similarly the English Northern Earls remembered
            their Norman roots, when they rose against Eliazbeth
            The Pale, is strong enough to wipe out the Scots Kingdom. They did
            beat Bruce. Plus a Scottish kingdom, means occasion respite. Better
            to deal with one big thug, then 100 small thugs. It also means you
            have a return address. Plus their ally over the sea, is bigger and
            richer.

            Note the Palesmen remained Catholic in Ireland. Drogeheda, was not
            Gaelic speaking

            So with a de Courcy and O Neill Bloodline, you have someone who can
            appeal to the Highlanders. In a way that Douglas cannot. The Gaelic-
            Norman part of Edinbrughs domains is being strengthened.

            Highlanders became Preysbertarian Most are in fact, Wee Frees.
            Later, arround 1820. SPCK et passim. I think South Uist is the only
            Catholic centre left in the highlands. So there is no a reason why
            Gaelic speaking types cannot be converted.
          • H. Torrance Griffin
            *shrug* My Latin is nonexistant and I cribbed it from worldstatesmen.com. HTG
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 2, 2006
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              *shrug* My Latin is nonexistant and I cribbed it from
              worldstatesmen.com.

              HTG

              --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, jacklifton@... wrote:
              >
              > Shouldn't this be:
              >
              > Rex Hiberniae et Scotiae, King of Ireland and of Scotland?
              >
              > or are you saying
              >
              > Regnum Hiberinarum et Scotiarum, Kingdom of Ireland and of Scotland?
              >
              > Jack Lifton
              >
            • John Faerseth
              Not English , as you yourself stated. Scots was a separarte language until the reformation and would no doubt have developed even more differently with no
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 2, 2006
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                Not "English", as you yourself stated. Scots was a
                separarte language until the reformation and would no
                doubt have developed even more differently with no
                union. As I postulated on an earlier thread I can see
                Gaelic coming back with a vengeance in the 19th
                century, helped by population growth, no clearances,
                romanticism and the age of nationalism.

                --- Amina Arraf <threefoldamina@...> wrote:

                > A stronger Scotland would probably end up holding
                > onto
                > more of Northumberland and the border between the
                > two
                > kingdoms might end up at the Wall or even further
                > south ... which would make the northern kingdom even
                > more "english" (well, really Scots) in language and
                > increase the lowlands as % of the kingdom ...
                >
                > Ami
                >
                > --- Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:
                >
                > > ---
                > >
                > >
                > > Thought about this again.
                > >
                > > OTOH, the Borderers hail from the shadow of
                > > Roxbrugh, Jedbrugh. The
                > > great border abbeys. The Irish church is very
                > > monastic.
                > >
                > > Something there I think
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "Ruairi"
                > > <rurr2@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina
                > > Arraf
                > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > So possibly two kingdoms in the British Isles?
                > > > > One, in the north, in scotland plus Ulster and
                > > the
                > > > > Other, England, Wales and Leinster ...
                > > > > The Scotch settlement in Down and Antrim
                > started
                > > > > before 1600 so something analagous might
                > happen.
                > > > > Northern ireland speaks a lallans form like
                > > Ullans and
                > > > > is more Presbyterian already when the Crowns
                > > unite.
                > > > >
                > > > > Ami
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Possibly.
                > > >
                > > > However.
                > > > This is an extra drain on the Scottish crown. It
                > > might also
                > > distract
                > > > the English from France, and have them sweep
                > > North.
                > > > Peversely it strengthens the Pale, as it means
                > > that their less of
                > > a
                > > > frontier zone. Yet also means the face Scottish
                > > raids. A major,
                > > > source of income for Edinbrugh
                > > > Not all Scots became Preysbertarian.
                > > Episcopalianism, held on
                > > > arround Aberdeen. Hence Kings College-
                > > >
                > > > Pre 1600 Scotch Settlement were Gaelic speaking
                > > Highlanders- The
                > > Red
                > > > shanks and Galloglasses. The people who speak
                > > Irish with a slight
                > > > Scotch accent.
                > > >
                > > > In fact this could come back to haunt the
                > Stuarts.
                > > Imagine an O
                > > > Neill, who is an over mighty subject in the
                > North
                > > Channel, Now
                > > with
                > > > a Blood line to the Bruces. Leading An Irish and
                > > Highlander force,
                > > > with the Aberdeen lords turning out for him,
                > > supported by the
                > > > French. In the name of the Old religion
                > > >
                > > > It makes a broader Scotland.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                > protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >


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              • Amina Arraf
                Or with lowlanders not able to expand beyond the Scottish realm(s), they might move into the highlands faster ... so Scots might faster spread (actually Gaelic
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 2, 2006
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                  Or with lowlanders not able to expand beyond the
                  Scottish realm(s), they might move into the highlands
                  faster ... so Scots might faster spread (actually
                  Gaelic is no older in Scotland than Scots ... only
                  introduced to Pictland at about the same time)

                  Ami

                  --- John Faerseth <edelgris@...> wrote:

                  > Not "English", as you yourself stated. Scots was a
                  > separarte language until the reformation and would
                  > no
                  > doubt have developed even more differently with no
                  > union. As I postulated on an earlier thread I can
                  > see
                  > Gaelic coming back with a vengeance in the 19th
                  > century, helped by population growth, no clearances,
                  > romanticism and the age of nationalism.
                  >
                  > --- Amina Arraf <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > A stronger Scotland would probably end up holding
                  > > onto
                  > > more of Northumberland and the border between the
                  > > two
                  > > kingdoms might end up at the Wall or even further
                  > > south ... which would make the northern kingdom
                  > even
                  > > more "english" (well, really Scots) in language
                  > and
                  > > increase the lowlands as % of the kingdom ...
                  > >
                  > > Ami
                  > >
                  > > --- Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > ---
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thought about this again.
                  > > >
                  > > > OTOH, the Borderers hail from the shadow of
                  > > > Roxbrugh, Jedbrugh. The
                  > > > great border abbeys. The Irish church is very
                  > > > monastic.
                  > > >
                  > > > Something there I think
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "Ruairi"
                  > > > <rurr2@...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com,
                  > Amina
                  > > > Arraf
                  > > > > <threefoldamina@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > So possibly two kingdoms in the British
                  > Isles?
                  > > > > > One, in the north, in scotland plus Ulster
                  > and
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > Other, England, Wales and Leinster ...
                  > > > > > The Scotch settlement in Down and Antrim
                  > > started
                  > > > > > before 1600 so something analagous might
                  > > happen.
                  > > > > > Northern ireland speaks a lallans form like
                  > > > Ullans and
                  > > > > > is more Presbyterian already when the Crowns
                  > > > unite.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Ami
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Possibly.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > However.
                  > > > > This is an extra drain on the Scottish crown.
                  > It
                  > > > might also
                  > > > distract
                  > > > > the English from France, and have them sweep
                  > > > North.
                  > > > > Peversely it strengthens the Pale, as it means
                  > > > that their less of
                  > > > a
                  > > > > frontier zone. Yet also means the face
                  > Scottish
                  > > > raids. A major,
                  > > > > source of income for Edinbrugh
                  > > > > Not all Scots became Preysbertarian.
                  > > > Episcopalianism, held on
                  > > > > arround Aberdeen. Hence Kings College-
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Pre 1600 Scotch Settlement were Gaelic
                  > speaking
                  > > > Highlanders- The
                  > > > Red
                  > > > > shanks and Galloglasses. The people who speak
                  > > > Irish with a slight
                  > > > > Scotch accent.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In fact this could come back to haunt the
                  > > Stuarts.
                  > > > Imagine an O
                  > > > > Neill, who is an over mighty subject in the
                  > > North
                  > > > Channel, Now
                  > > > with
                  > > > > a Blood line to the Bruces. Leading An Irish
                  > and
                  > > > Highlander force,
                  > > > > with the Aberdeen lords turning out for him,
                  > > > supported by the
                  > > > > French. In the name of the Old religion
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It makes a broader Scotland.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                  > > protection around
                  > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
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                  > protection around
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                  >


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                • Ruairi
                  ... . Highlands are going to be a tough nut without gunpowder. That said, I think Scots would win out
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 3, 2006
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                    --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Amina Arraf
                    <threefoldamina@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Or with lowlanders not able to expand beyond the
                    > Scottish realm(s), they might move into the highlands
                    > faster ... so Scots might faster spread (actually
                    > Gaelic is no older in Scotland than Scots ... only
                    > introduced to Pictland at about the same time)
                    >
                    > Ami
                    >
                    .
                    Highlands are going to be a tough nut without gunpowder.
                    That said, I think Scots would win out
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