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Gunpowder Polt

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  • Armdour
    Hullo Its that time of yr when us Brits celebrate th foiling of one the most dangerous polts in UK history..... the Gunpowder polt. Basically in 1605 a group
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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      Hullo

      Its that time of yr when us Brits celebrate th foiling of one the most
      dangerous polts in UK history..... the Gunpowder polt.

      Basically in 1605 a group of Catholic plotters tried to blow up King
      James and his Court which inculded most of the Nobels and beaucrats of
      the day. The polt invovled placing (far too much) gunpowder under the
      House of Lords and then lighting it during the meeting above it. Guy
      Fawkes was the man who would do the deed. Fawkes was caught after a
      leak from the plot altered the authorties and the polt unravled.

      Now the whole thing is ripe for What Ifs..... particually the date of
      Parlaiment being suspended from Oct to Nov which may of rendered the
      gunpowder inert and allow the leak to happen...

      So what could have happened if the polt had gone as planned? The BBC
      has a page on this here:
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/monarchs_leaders/gunpowder_hutton_01.shtml
      but I am interested in what you all think would have gone next:
      Protestant 'military rule'? Catholic take over? Civil War?

      BBC also has an interesting article on the effects of the expolsion:
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3240135.stm

      Stay well
      Ogrebear
    • mattias persson
      ... But this year i hear there isnt going to be any fireworks thanks to the events i London in july
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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        At 11:16 2005-11-04 -0000, you wrote:
        > Hullo
        >
        > Its that time of yr when us Brits celebrate th foiling of one the most
        > dangerous polts in UK history..... the Gunpowder polt.
        >
        But this year i hear there isnt going to be any fireworks thanks to the
        events i London in july
      • John Faerseth
        My main objection is the eventual conquest of Scotland. International law had already developed far enough to make full-scale conquest of a sovereign state
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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          My main objection is the eventual conquest of
          Scotland. International law had already developed far
          enough to make full-scale conquest of a sovereign
          state "against the rules". With the exeption of
          Poland, annexation of neighboring nations have not
          been the norm since the European state system came
          into place.

          --- mattias persson <mattep74@...> wrote:

          > At 11:16 2005-11-04 -0000, you wrote:
          > > Hullo
          > >
          > > Its that time of yr when us Brits celebrate th
          > foiling of one the most
          > > dangerous polts in UK history..... the Gunpowder
          > polt.
          > >
          > But this year i hear there isnt going to be any
          > fireworks thanks to the
          > events i London in july
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >




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        • macmaster@riseup.net
          What are you referring to here? Scotland wasn t conquered; the crowns were united in 1603 and parliements followed (voluntarily) in 1707 (in some aspects,
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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            What are you referring to here?
            Scotland wasn't conquered; the crowns were united in 1603 and parliements
            followed (voluntarily) in 1707 (in some aspects, Scotland still maintains
            a separate identity).

            Also, post-1605, there've been a few annexations of neighboring states --
            witness the expansions of France under Louis XIV and during the Revolution
            or the unifications of Germany and Italy. Other 'lost' states include
            Montenegro (annexed by Serbia), Ragusa, Venice and all the other smaller
            states swept away at the same time as Poland



            John Faerseth wrote:
            > My main objection is the eventual conquest of
            > Scotland. International law had already developed far
            > enough to make full-scale conquest of a sovereign
            > state "against the rules". With the exeption of
            > Poland, annexation of neighboring nations have not
            > been the norm since the European state system came
            > into place.
            >
            >
          • John Faerseth
            I was referring to the scenario from a former message, presuming that Scotland declared independence under a branch of the Stuart dynasty, became a refuge for
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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              I was referring to the scenario from a former message,
              presuming that Scotland declared independence under a
              branch of the Stuart dynasty, became a refuge for
              English protestants and at a later stage was
              conquered.

              Ragusa and Venice disappeared during the Napoleonic
              disruptions; the German princes choose to recognise
              William I as their emperor and kept their thrones.

              I am not aware of Louis conquering other, independent
              states, only parts of the Holy Roman Empire?



              --- macmaster@... wrote:

              > What are you referring to here?
              > Scotland wasn't conquered; the crowns were united in
              > 1603 and parliements
              > followed (voluntarily) in 1707 (in some aspects,
              > Scotland still maintains
              > a separate identity).
              >
              > Also, post-1605, there've been a few annexations of
              > neighboring states --
              > witness the expansions of France under Louis XIV and
              > during the Revolution
              > or the unifications of Germany and Italy. Other
              > 'lost' states include
              > Montenegro (annexed by Serbia), Ragusa, Venice and
              > all the other smaller
              > states swept away at the same time as Poland
              >
              >
              >
              > John Faerseth wrote:
              > > My main objection is the eventual conquest of
              > > Scotland. International law had already developed
              > far
              > > enough to make full-scale conquest of a sovereign
              > > state "against the rules". With the
              > exeption of
              > > Poland, annexation of neighboring nations have
              > not
              > > been the norm since the European state system
              > came
              > > into place.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >




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            • macmaster@riseup.net
              OK, that makes more sense; I agree that a separate Stewart and Calvonist Scotland would be unlikely to be overrun (besides being a political disaster, a
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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                OK, that makes more sense; I agree that a separate Stewart and Calvonist
                Scotland would be unlikely to be overrun (besides being a political
                disaster, a Catholic English conquest of a Puritan Scotland would be the
                start of an endless bloody war; Scotland is well suited to a war of
                resistance geographically)

                As to the German states, many of them were conquered by Prussia (Hannover,
                forex) and their dynasties and independence extinguished -- the same for
                Italy in the same years.

                Yes, Ragusa and Venice were 'disappeared' in the napoleonic era -- but so
                too was Poland ...





                John Faerseth wrote:
                > I was referring to the scenario from a former message,
                > presuming that Scotland declared independence under a
                > branch of the Stuart dynasty, became a refuge for
                > English protestants and at a later stage was
                > conquered.
                >
                > Ragusa and Venice disappeared during the Napoleonic
                > disruptions; the German princes choose to recognise
                > William I as their emperor and kept their thrones.
                >
                > I am not aware of Louis conquering other, independent
                > states, only parts of the Holy Roman Empire?
                >
                >
              • Ruairi
                Lady Antonia Fraser, talks about this in what might have been. Okay so lets say the Plotters Blow James sky high. They kill, a good number of the British
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 5, 2005
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                  Lady Antonia Fraser, talks about this in what might have been.


                  Okay so lets say the Plotters Blow James sky high.
                  They kill, a good number of the British ruling class.

                  Charles 1st was not, in London. The plotters had no plan for him. he
                  was 5 years old, and a late developer.

                  Small Catholic rising, Unless they are very lucky, and the French or
                  Spanish Jump, and Jump quickly.


                  It still leaves Scotland intact. Sottish Parliment is still there.

                  My view, is a different Britan. A weaker, England. Loss of its
                  ruling class. Loss of the Bishops. Much more Anti Catholic. Younger,
                  people becoming more prominent. This will affect the colonisation of
                  the US etc.

                  Some kind of council of regency, while Charles grows of age.

                  Charles is much more dependent on Parliment.
                  England is more Protestant. No Anglo Scottish wars?
                • Ruairi
                  There is another theory that James was seeking a test case to allow Catholics to prove their loyalty. An earlier, plot had been exposed by English Catholics.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 6, 2005
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                    There is another theory that James was seeking a test case to allow
                    Catholics to prove their loyalty. An earlier, plot had been exposed by
                    English Catholics.

                    Okay suppose Monteagle, discovers the plot earlier, and with a few good
                    men, takes the plotters in chains to the king. As a display of his
                    loyalty.

                    James allows toleration. Catholics cannot be king, Lord lieutenant,
                    etc. The odd jesuit hangs. (Ireland is another matter)


                    Ruairi
                  • macmaster@riseup.net
                    wouldn t that give a history very much like our own?
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 6, 2005
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                      wouldn't that give a history very much like our own?



                      Ruairi wrote:
                      >
                      > There is another theory that James was seeking a test case to allow
                      > Catholics to prove their loyalty. An earlier, plot had been exposed by
                      > English Catholics.
                      >
                      > Okay suppose Monteagle, discovers the plot earlier, and with a few good
                      > men, takes the plotters in chains to the king. As a display of his
                      > loyalty.
                      >
                      > James allows toleration. Catholics cannot be king, Lord lieutenant,
                      > etc. The odd jesuit hangs. (Ireland is another matter)
                      >
                      >
                      > Ruairi
                      >
                      >
                    • Ruairi James Heekin
                      Similar, yes but it makes things easier for english catholics. James 2nd? ... _________________________________________________________________ Easily locate
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 6, 2005
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                        Similar, yes but

                        it makes things easier for english catholics. James 2nd?











                        >From: macmaster@...
                        >Reply-To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Re: Gunpowder Plot
                        >Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:47:41 -0500 (EST)
                        >
                        >wouldn't that give a history very much like our own?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Ruairi wrote:
                        > >
                        > > There is another theory that James was seeking a test case to allow
                        > > Catholics to prove their loyalty. An earlier, plot had been exposed by
                        > > English Catholics.
                        > >
                        > > Okay suppose Monteagle, discovers the plot earlier, and with a few good
                        > > men, takes the plotters in chains to the king. As a display of his
                        > > loyalty.
                        > >
                        > > James allows toleration. Catholics cannot be king, Lord lieutenant,
                        > > etc. The odd jesuit hangs. (Ireland is another matter)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Ruairi
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

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                      • John Faerseth
                        Didn t Charles have an older brother? Why should he not survive in this otl, leaving Charles a forgotten bishop as he was first intended to become? ...
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 7, 2005
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                          Didn't Charles have an older brother? Why should he
                          not survive in this otl, leaving Charles a forgotten
                          bishop as he was first intended to become?


                          --- Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > Lady Antonia Fraser, talks about this in what might
                          > have been.
                          >
                          >
                          > Okay so lets say the Plotters Blow James sky high.
                          > They kill, a good number of the British ruling
                          > class.
                          >
                          > Charles 1st was not, in London. The plotters had no
                          > plan for him. he
                          > was 5 years old, and a late developer.
                          >
                          > Small Catholic rising, Unless they are very lucky,
                          > and the French or
                          > Spanish Jump, and Jump quickly.
                          >
                          >
                          > It still leaves Scotland intact. Sottish Parliment
                          > is still there.
                          >
                          > My view, is a different Britan. A weaker, England.
                          > Loss of its
                          > ruling class. Loss of the Bishops. Much more Anti
                          > Catholic. Younger,
                          > people becoming more prominent. This will affect the
                          > colonisation of
                          > the US etc.
                          >
                          > Some kind of council of regency, while Charles grows
                          > of age.
                          >
                          > Charles is much more dependent on Parliment.
                          > England is more Protestant. No Anglo Scottish wars?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                          Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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                        • Mark Barltrop
                          On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:22:36 +0100, mattias persson ... dunno where you heard that - I ve been able to hear fireworks pretty much every night for the last 10
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 7, 2005
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                            On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:22:36 +0100, mattias persson
                            <mattep74@...> wrote:

                            >At 11:16 2005-11-04 -0000, you wrote:
                            >> Hullo
                            >>
                            >> Its that time of yr when us Brits celebrate th foiling of one the most
                            >> dangerous polts in UK history..... the Gunpowder polt.
                            >>
                            >But this year i hear there isnt going to be any fireworks thanks to the
                            >events i London in july
                            >
                            >
                            dunno where you heard that - I've been able to hear fireworks pretty
                            much every night for the last 10 days- mind you I am in Sussex & we
                            are somewhat more enthusiastic about celebrating it than the rest of
                            the country - due to the Lewis Martyrs
                            --

                            Mark Barltrop (usenet@...)
                          • CIsoard
                            How would the colonisation of the US be affected? CIsoard
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 7, 2005
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                              How would the colonisation of the US be affected?

                              CIsoard

                              On 11/5/05, Ruairi <rurr2@...> wrote:

                              Lady Antonia Fraser, talks about this in what might have been.


                              Okay so lets say the Plotters Blow James sky high.
                              They kill, a good number of the British ruling class.

                              Charles 1st was not, in London. The plotters had no plan for him. he
                              was 5 years old, and a late developer.

                              Small Catholic rising, Unless they are very lucky, and the French or
                              Spanish Jump, and Jump quickly.


                              It still leaves Scotland intact. Sottish Parliment is still there.

                              My view, is a different Britan. A weaker, England. Loss of its
                              ruling class. Loss of the Bishops. Much more Anti Catholic. Younger,
                              people becoming more prominent. This will affect the colonisation of
                              the US etc.

                              Some kind of council of regency, while Charles grows of age.

                              Charles is much more dependent on Parliment.
                              England is more Protestant. No Anglo Scottish wars?













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                            • Ruairi
                              ... Difficult to say. Jamestown, rather then Plymouth?
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 12, 2005
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                                --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, CIsoard <cisoard@g...> wrote:
                                >
                                > How would the colonisation of the US be affected?
                                >

                                Difficult to say. Jamestown, rather then Plymouth?
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