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Re: Lobisome's Steampunk

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  • Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
    ... time as the ... Nope, that was the year of the Guerra dels Segadors (harversters war) when the catalans were quite pissed off from the overwhelming
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2005
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      --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "T J MacMaster"
      <macmaster@r...> wrote:
      > wasn't catalonia briefly independent around 1640 or so (at the same
      time as the
      > portuguese regaining of independence)?

      Nope, that was the year of the "Guerra dels Segadors" (harversters'
      war) when the catalans were quite pissed off from the overwhelming
      pressence of spanish (castilian) troops at Catalonia. The spanish king
      put all this bunch of soldiers to avoid a french invasion, or sort of.

      So I don't remember any independence gap...

      But after surfing the wikipedia I must say you are right:
      1640: Guerra dels Segadors
      1641: Pau Clarís claims the Catalonian Republic. Quite soon after Pau
      Clarís dies and french king Louis XIII is crowned as Count of
      Barcelona and sovereign of all Catalonia.
      1648: Westfalia's Peace. Catalonia "returns" to Spain.

      So, yes, here is the brief independence gap, but it is not the idea I
      had. I want to build a time-line where catalonia gets free once and
      for ever.

      But thanks :)
    • T J MacMaster
      not sure how much an effect a british-aliogned catalonia would have on british policy in the mediterranean: in OTL. britain ruled Minorca during most of the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 2, 2005
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        not sure how much an effect a british-aliogned catalonia would have on british policy
        in the mediterranean:
        in OTL. britain ruled Minorca during most of the 18th century so already had a strong
        presence in the region.

        also, wasn't catalonia a direct competitor of england (textiles, etc)?

        would removing them from the spanish empire just make british economic
        penetration of spanish empire faster and more complete?

        --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
        <lobisome@l...> wrote:
        > Hi.
        > I wanna build an ucrony based on the next issues:
        > - The independence of Catalonia from 1714
        > - Steampunk based on el Etheria from GURPS-Steampunk from William H.
        > Stoddard. I like it because is more Mediterranian Sea oriented thna
        > the other one.
        > - Steampunk from Space 1889, I love Mars' colonization.
        >
        > These are the para-historical facts I've got:
        > 1714: Catalonia's Victory at the "Guerra de Sucesión" when England
        > accomplishes "in extremis" their mutual pact. So, Catalonia becomes an
        > ally of England as like as Portugal.
        > 1808: Napoleon invades Spain. (or maybe not?)
        > 1824: Lord Byron survives and Greece get its independence from
        > Otoman's Empire. Lord Byron is crowned as Giorgios I, king of Greece.
        > 1834: Charles Babbage starts his works that will let him invent the
        > Differential Engine.
        > 1863-1865: Greeks and russians defeat definitively the Otoman's Empire.
        > 1866: Giorgios II, Lord Byron's son, is crowned in Constantinopla, new
        > Greek Empire's capitol city.
        > 1875: Nikola Tesla starts his works in electromagnetics and
        > luminiferous ether.
        > 1881: Tesla makes the first interplanetary trip to Venus.
        > 1884: British Empire starts to colonize the inner solar sistem (Venus,
        > Mars and Mercury) llosing its interest in Africa's colonization.
        >
        > That's all now. I assume that there is a BIG gap between "my" XVII and
        > XIX centuries. My first thought is that I wonder that Spain would be
        > much more interested in America's colonization and England would be a
        > bigger player in Mediterreanee's power game having such an ally into
        > this sea.
        >
        > Any more ideas?
        >
        > Thank you in advance.
      • scott palter
        If Catalonia is British protected and thus open to British capital it industrializes in step with Britain after 1815 and thus ahead of the rest of the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 2, 2005
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          If Catalonia is British protected and thus open to British capital it
          industrializes in step with Britain after 1815 and thus ahead of the rest of
          the continent.

          Didn't happen in Portugal becuase Portugal was too backward but Catalonia
          was not.

          Scott
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "T J MacMaster" <macmaster@...>
          To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:05 PM
          Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk


          not sure how much an effect a british-aliogned catalonia would have on
          british policy
          in the mediterranean:
          in OTL. britain ruled Minorca during most of the 18th century so already had
          a strong
          presence in the region.

          also, wasn't catalonia a direct competitor of england (textiles, etc)?

          would removing them from the spanish empire just make british economic
          penetration of spanish empire faster and more complete?

          --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
          <lobisome@l...> wrote:
          > Hi.
          > I wanna build an ucrony based on the next issues:
          > - The independence of Catalonia from 1714
          > - Steampunk based on el Etheria from GURPS-Steampunk from William H.
          > Stoddard. I like it because is more Mediterranian Sea oriented thna
          > the other one.
          > - Steampunk from Space 1889, I love Mars' colonization.
          >
          > These are the para-historical facts I've got:
          > 1714: Catalonia's Victory at the "Guerra de Sucesión" when England
          > accomplishes "in extremis" their mutual pact. So, Catalonia becomes an
          > ally of England as like as Portugal.
          > 1808: Napoleon invades Spain. (or maybe not?)
          > 1824: Lord Byron survives and Greece get its independence from
          > Otoman's Empire. Lord Byron is crowned as Giorgios I, king of Greece.
          > 1834: Charles Babbage starts his works that will let him invent the
          > Differential Engine.
          > 1863-1865: Greeks and russians defeat definitively the Otoman's Empire.
          > 1866: Giorgios II, Lord Byron's son, is crowned in Constantinopla, new
          > Greek Empire's capitol city.
          > 1875: Nikola Tesla starts his works in electromagnetics and
          > luminiferous ether.
          > 1881: Tesla makes the first interplanetary trip to Venus.
          > 1884: British Empire starts to colonize the inner solar sistem (Venus,
          > Mars and Mercury) llosing its interest in Africa's colonization.
          >
          > That's all now. I assume that there is a BIG gap between "my" XVII and
          > XIX centuries. My first thought is that I wonder that Spain would be
          > much more interested in America's colonization and England would be a
          > bigger player in Mediterreanee's power game having such an ally into
          > this sea.
          >
          > Any more ideas?
          >
          > Thank you in advance.





          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • T J MacMaster
          right re portugal but remember british economic policies were never friendly in those years to any rival exporter: britain worked to de-industrialize india,
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2005
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            right re portugal but remember british economic policies were never friendly in those
            years to any rival exporter: britain worked to de-industrialize india, egypt, latin
            america ... so why would british textile manufacturers wish to see catalan textile
            industry anything but ruined?



            --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter" <tulsayankee4@h...>
            wrote:
            > If Catalonia is British protected and thus open to British capital it
            > industrializes in step with Britain after 1815 and thus ahead of the rest of
            > the continent.
            >
            > Didn't happen in Portugal becuase Portugal was too backward but Catalonia
            > was not.
            >
            > Scott
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "T J MacMaster" <macmaster@r...>
            > To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:05 PM
            > Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk
            >
            >
            > not sure how much an effect a british-aliogned catalonia would have on
            > british policy
            > in the mediterranean:
            > in OTL. britain ruled Minorca during most of the 18th century so already had
            > a strong
            > presence in the region.
            >
            > also, wasn't catalonia a direct competitor of england (textiles, etc)?
            >
            > would removing them from the spanish empire just make british economic
            > penetration of spanish empire faster and more complete?
            >
            > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
            > <lobisome@l...> wrote:
            > > Hi.
            > > I wanna build an ucrony based on the next issues:
            > > - The independence of Catalonia from 1714
            > > - Steampunk based on el Etheria from GURPS-Steampunk from William H.
            > > Stoddard. I like it because is more Mediterranian Sea oriented thna
            > > the other one.
            > > - Steampunk from Space 1889, I love Mars' colonization.
            > >
            > > These are the para-historical facts I've got:
            > > 1714: Catalonia's Victory at the "Guerra de Sucesión" when England
            > > accomplishes "in extremis" their mutual pact. So, Catalonia becomes an
            > > ally of England as like as Portugal.
            > > 1808: Napoleon invades Spain. (or maybe not?)
            > > 1824: Lord Byron survives and Greece get its independence from
            > > Otoman's Empire. Lord Byron is crowned as Giorgios I, king of Greece.
            > > 1834: Charles Babbage starts his works that will let him invent the
            > > Differential Engine.
            > > 1863-1865: Greeks and russians defeat definitively the Otoman's Empire.
            > > 1866: Giorgios II, Lord Byron's son, is crowned in Constantinopla, new
            > > Greek Empire's capitol city.
            > > 1875: Nikola Tesla starts his works in electromagnetics and
            > > luminiferous ether.
            > > 1881: Tesla makes the first interplanetary trip to Venus.
            > > 1884: British Empire starts to colonize the inner solar sistem (Venus,
            > > Mars and Mercury) llosing its interest in Africa's colonization.
            > >
            > > That's all now. I assume that there is a BIG gap between "my" XVII and
            > > XIX centuries. My first thought is that I wonder that Spain would be
            > > much more interested in America's colonization and England would be a
            > > bigger player in Mediterreanee's power game having such an ally into
            > > this sea.
            > >
            > > Any more ideas?
            > >
            > > Thank you in advance.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
          • scott palter
            If they own a piece of it and if Catalonia is a necessary ally against the real enemy in Paris? The others could not provide a useful addition to the RN in
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2005
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              If they own a piece of it and if Catalonia is a necessary ally against the
              real enemy in Paris? The others could not provide a useful addition to the
              RN in the Med.

              Scott
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "T J MacMaster" <macmaster@...>
              To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:46 PM
              Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk


              right re portugal but remember british economic policies were never friendly
              in those
              years to any rival exporter: britain worked to de-industrialize india,
              egypt, latin
              america ... so why would british textile manufacturers wish to see catalan
              textile
              industry anything but ruined?



              --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter" <tulsayankee4@h...>
              wrote:
              > If Catalonia is British protected and thus open to British capital it
              > industrializes in step with Britain after 1815 and thus ahead of the rest
              > of
              > the continent.
              >
              > Didn't happen in Portugal becuase Portugal was too backward but Catalonia
              > was not.
              >
              > Scott
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "T J MacMaster" <macmaster@r...>
              > To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:05 PM
              > Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk
              >
              >
              > not sure how much an effect a british-aliogned catalonia would have on
              > british policy
              > in the mediterranean:
              > in OTL. britain ruled Minorca during most of the 18th century so already
              > had
              > a strong
              > presence in the region.
              >
              > also, wasn't catalonia a direct competitor of england (textiles, etc)?
              >
              > would removing them from the spanish empire just make british economic
              > penetration of spanish empire faster and more complete?
              >
              > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
              > <lobisome@l...> wrote:
              > > Hi.
              > > I wanna build an ucrony based on the next issues:
              > > - The independence of Catalonia from 1714
              > > - Steampunk based on el Etheria from GURPS-Steampunk from William H.
              > > Stoddard. I like it because is more Mediterranian Sea oriented thna
              > > the other one.
              > > - Steampunk from Space 1889, I love Mars' colonization.
              > >
              > > These are the para-historical facts I've got:
              > > 1714: Catalonia's Victory at the "Guerra de Sucesión" when England
              > > accomplishes "in extremis" their mutual pact. So, Catalonia becomes an
              > > ally of England as like as Portugal.
              > > 1808: Napoleon invades Spain. (or maybe not?)
              > > 1824: Lord Byron survives and Greece get its independence from
              > > Otoman's Empire. Lord Byron is crowned as Giorgios I, king of Greece.
              > > 1834: Charles Babbage starts his works that will let him invent the
              > > Differential Engine.
              > > 1863-1865: Greeks and russians defeat definitively the Otoman's Empire.
              > > 1866: Giorgios II, Lord Byron's son, is crowned in Constantinopla, new
              > > Greek Empire's capitol city.
              > > 1875: Nikola Tesla starts his works in electromagnetics and
              > > luminiferous ether.
              > > 1881: Tesla makes the first interplanetary trip to Venus.
              > > 1884: British Empire starts to colonize the inner solar sistem (Venus,
              > > Mars and Mercury) llosing its interest in Africa's colonization.
              > >
              > > That's all now. I assume that there is a BIG gap between "my" XVII and
              > > XIX centuries. My first thought is that I wonder that Spain would be
              > > much more interested in America's colonization and England would be a
              > > bigger player in Mediterreanee's power game having such an ally into
              > > this sea.
              > >
              > > Any more ideas?
              > >
              > > Thank you in advance.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links





              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
              ... against the ... to the ... I m sorry but... What s RN in the Med ? And thanks for your help :)
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 4, 2005
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                --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter"
                <tulsayankee4@h...> wrote:
                > If they own a piece of it and if Catalonia is a necessary ally
                against the
                > real enemy in Paris? The others could not provide a useful addition
                to the
                > RN in the Med.

                I'm sorry but... What's "RN in the Med"?

                And thanks for your help :)
              • Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
                Hi, let me add some details from the place where I got the idea. This is a ressumé from an article at the Història Ficció section from Sàpiens magazine
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 4, 2005
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                  Hi, let me add some details from the place where I got the idea. This
                  is a ressumé from an article at the "Història Ficció"
                  section from
                  Sàpiens magazine #25. The author is Agustí Alcoberro, Modern
                  History
                  professor at the Universitat de Barcelona:

                  The project of a republic that included the territories and Catalonia,
                  Majorca and Ibiza was agreed to by count Felip Ferran i Sacirera and
                  king George I the 18 of September of 1714.

                  The hypothesis consists of that the Castilian-French final offensive
                  against Barcelona was delayed a couple of weeks, thus giving time at
                  that the English fleet arrived from Menorca to break the borbon's
                  siege. Later the "Catalan case" of Utrecht and Rastatt's treaties
                  would be revised. Catalonia would receive the British, Dutch and
                  Germany (the former archduke Charles wuolde be king Carlos VI of
                  Germany then).

                  The consequences would be the following ones:
                  - the Catalan economic expansion would have begun long before. For
                  example, the contact with Portugal, England and Holland would have
                  impelled the export of wines and brandies. Also the market with Naples
                  and Sicily would have recovered. - Also it would have entered long
                  before the American colonial market of the hand of England.
                  - the Catalan would have recovered prestige like literary language and
                  of culture. The English would have been replacing the Spanish like
                  second language of the elites gradually.
                  - On the other hand, Felipe V could not have recovered the old
                  Hispanic dominions in Italy.
                • scott palter
                  RN=Royal Navy Med is Mediteranean my appologies for using shorthand Scott ... From: Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad To:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 4, 2005
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                    RN=Royal Navy

                    Med is Mediteranean

                    my appologies for using shorthand

                    Scott
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad" <lobisome@...>
                    To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:46 AM
                    Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk


                    > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter"
                    > <tulsayankee4@h...> wrote:
                    >> If they own a piece of it and if Catalonia is a necessary ally
                    > against the
                    >> real enemy in Paris? The others could not provide a useful addition
                    > to the
                    >> RN in the Med.
                    >
                    > I'm sorry but... What's "RN in the Med"?
                    >
                    > And thanks for your help :)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
                    Ok, no need to appologize. I d must me clever enough to get Med = Mediteranean myself O:) Thanks a lot :)
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 4, 2005
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                      Ok, no need to appologize.

                      I'd must me clever enough to get "Med = Mediteranean" myself O:)

                      Thanks a lot :)

                      --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter"
                      <tulsayankee4@h...> wrote:
                      > RN=Royal Navy
                      >
                      > Med is Mediteranean
                      >
                      > my appologies for using shorthand
                      >
                      > Scott
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad" <lobisome@l...>
                      > To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:46 AM
                      > Subject: [alternate-history] Re: Lobisome's Steampunk
                      >
                      >
                      > > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "scott palter"
                      > > <tulsayankee4@h...> wrote:
                      > >> If they own a piece of it and if Catalonia is a necessary ally
                      > > against the
                      > >> real enemy in Paris? The others could not provide a useful addition
                      > > to the
                      > >> RN in the Med.
                      > >
                      > > I'm sorry but... What's "RN in the Med"?
                      > >
                      > > And thanks for your help :)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • T J MacMaster
                      is the proposal for a republic of catalonia a fact of our history? tm
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 4, 2005
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                        is the proposal for a republic of catalonia a fact of our history?

                        tm

                        --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
                        <lobisome@l...> wrote:
                        > Hi, let me add some details from the place where I got the idea. This
                        > is a ressumé from an article at the "Història Ficció"
                        > section from
                        > Sàpiens magazine #25. The author is Agustí Alcoberro, Modern
                        > History
                        > professor at the Universitat de Barcelona:
                        >
                        > The project of a republic that included the territories and Catalonia,
                        > Majorca and Ibiza was agreed to by count Felip Ferran i Sacirera and
                        > king George I the 18 of September of 1714.
                        >
                        > The hypothesis consists of that the Castilian-French final offensive
                        > against Barcelona was delayed a couple of weeks, thus giving time at
                        > that the English fleet arrived from Menorca to break the borbon's
                        > siege. Later the "Catalan case" of Utrecht and Rastatt's treaties
                        > would be revised. Catalonia would receive the British, Dutch and
                        > Germany (the former archduke Charles wuolde be king Carlos VI of
                        > Germany then).
                        >
                        > The consequences would be the following ones:
                        > - the Catalan economic expansion would have begun long before. For
                        > example, the contact with Portugal, England and Holland would have
                        > impelled the export of wines and brandies. Also the market with Naples
                        > and Sicily would have recovered. - Also it would have entered long
                        > before the American colonial market of the hand of England.
                        > - the Catalan would have recovered prestige like literary language and
                        > of culture. The English would have been replacing the Spanish like
                        > second language of the elites gradually.
                        > - On the other hand, Felipe V could not have recovered the old
                        > Hispanic dominions in Italy.
                      • Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
                        ... Yes, the author of this article says it so (or this is what I understand from reading it) but this is not THE point for me. It d just add more strength to
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 5, 2005
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                          --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, "T J MacMaster"
                          <macmaster@r...> wrote:
                          > is the proposal for a republic of catalonia a fact of our history?
                          >
                          > tm

                          Yes, the author of this article says it so (or this is what I
                          understand from reading it) but this is not THE point for me. It'd
                          just add more strength to my fiction, that's all.

                          Thanks :)

                          > --- In alternate-history@yahoogroups.com, Juan Vicente Mañanas Abad
                          > <lobisome@l...> wrote:
                          > > Hi, let me add some details from the place where I got the idea. This
                          > > is a ressumé from an article at the "Història Ficció"
                          > > section from
                          > > Sàpiens magazine #25. The author is Agustí Alcoberro, Modern
                          > > History
                          > > professor at the Universitat de Barcelona:
                          > >
                          > > The project of a republic that included the territories and Catalonia,
                          > > Majorca and Ibiza was agreed to by count Felip Ferran i Sacirera and
                          > > king George I the 18 of September of 1714.
                          > >
                          > > The hypothesis consists of that the Castilian-French final offensive
                          > > against Barcelona was delayed a couple of weeks, thus giving time at
                          > > that the English fleet arrived from Menorca to break the borbon's
                          > > siege. Later the "Catalan case" of Utrecht and Rastatt's treaties
                          > > would be revised. Catalonia would receive the British, Dutch and
                          > > Germany (the former archduke Charles wuolde be king Carlos VI of
                          > > Germany then).
                          > >
                          > > The consequences would be the following ones:
                          > > - the Catalan economic expansion would have begun long before. For
                          > > example, the contact with Portugal, England and Holland would have
                          > > impelled the export of wines and brandies. Also the market with Naples
                          > > and Sicily would have recovered. - Also it would have entered long
                          > > before the American colonial market of the hand of England.
                          > > - the Catalan would have recovered prestige like literary language and
                          > > of culture. The English would have been replacing the Spanish like
                          > > second language of the elites gradually.
                          > > - On the other hand, Felipe V could not have recovered the old
                          > > Hispanic dominions in Italy.
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