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Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been assassinated?

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  • Thomas P Roche
    Interesting. Say this decision never happens, or Congress quickly overrides it (it is one of the most obviously unconstitutional verdicts the Court ever
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 1, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Interesting. Say this decision never happens, or Congress quickly
      overrides it (it is one of the most obviously unconstitutional verdicts
      the Court ever made). Consequences since then?

      Dr Thomas P. Roche
      SUNY AT BUFFALO

      18 1/2 Main St.
      Cattaraugus, NY 14719
      716-257-3866
      troche@...

      On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:

      > Please add to what is below that Baker v Carr decision of USSC never happens
      > and the bulk of the nation's legislatures go on vastly over representing
      > unpopulated rural areas and under representing the fast growing burbs.
      >
      >
      > Scott
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Victorian Cow" <victoriancow2345@...>
      > To: <alternate-history@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:19 PM
      > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
      > assassinated?
      >
      >
      > > Key factors would be:
      > > 1. A permanent split between the Tory Dems / Dixiecrats and the National
      > > Democratic party such that the ruling coalition in Congress would be
      > > National Democrats, Popular Front (the 50's - 60's Reds under whatever
      > guise
      > > or guises)and the still extant Progressive wing of the GOP - Dixie
      > seniority
      > > enabled them to use every major Federal spending program as a form of
      > > regional aid.
      > > 2. JFK does not die in Dallas - Oswald kills Jackie, Connally and 2
      > secret
      > > service men instead. The voting rights bill was dead before the
      > > assassination. You want the death of Jim Crow to be much slower, more
      > > bitter, more violent. The legal death of Jim Crow 1964 - 1975 (approx)
      > was
      > > a necessary prerequisite to the South's socioeconomic integration in
      > > America. Absent even a surface paper solution to the Race problem
      > national
      > > and international capital will not be comfortable investing in Dixie.
      > > 3. The GOP takes a stand as the party of Lincoln - decides as a matter of
      > > principal not to chase the Southern white racist vote as a path to
      > national
      > > majority. Nixon almost sided with King against his oppressors. He
      > referred
      > > to Dixiecrat votes as 'fool's gold.' The middle and working class white
      > > suprecamists must be left marginalized with Wallace and Duke, not drawn
      > into
      > > the mainstream however slowly.
      > > 4. The Fundmentalist Prods must decide that politics is no path to
      > salvation
      > > and choose withdrawl from the hopeless secular humanist world.
      > > 5. Globalization must be slowed. The less international trade and the
      > more
      > > dependant Dixie is on cheap labor manufacturing.
      > > 6. Cocaine must not become hip in the 70's. Dixie must be denied the
      > > cocacowboy $ and broadening of horizons to the carib South.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
      > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
      > > >assassinated?
      > > >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:17:45 -0500 (EST)
      > > >
      > > >Excellent analysis. Design an ah scenario dating back to whenever
      > > >necessary to prevent this southernization from occurring to anything like
      > > >the level it has.
      > > >
      > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
      > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
      > > >
      > > >18 1/2 Main St.
      > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
      > > >716-257-3866
      > > >troche@...
      > > >
      > > >On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > 1. TV, radio made a national pop culture.
      > > > > 2. A/c, interstates, airports, fed ex, ups - linked the national
      > > >business
      > > > > culture in ways that were never true pre 70's
      > > > > 3. Atlanta, Del Ray, Orlando, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte became
      > national
      > > > > cities with major numbers of northern born working people - the first
      > > >major
      > > > > inmigration of nonretirees to Dixie since the old SW (Alabama,
      > > >Mississippi,
      > > > > central - west Tennessee, interior Georgia) opened up in Andy
      > Jackson's
      > > >time
      > > > > 4. up going Republican, which was the mainstream political party of
      > tyhe
      > > > > bulk of the nonurban north, large elements of Dixie culture -
      > > >fundementalist
      > > > > Protestantism, country music, the whole good old boy thing
      > > > > of guns and pickups -became mainstream values
      > > > >
      > > > > scott
      > > > >
      > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
      > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
      > > > > >assassinated?
      > > > > >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:03:04 -0500 (EST)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Good point. USA last generation has been southernizing apace. What
      > do
      > > > > >you think caused this, and what would be necessary, ah-wise, to have
      > > > > >prevented this, thus Bubba Clinton, etc...
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
      > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
      > > > > >
      > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
      > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
      > > > > >716-257-3866
      > > > > >troche@...
      > > > > >
      > > > > >On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Victorian Cow wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Long's twin handicaps were his Dixie accent - as late as 1976
      > > >Carter's
      > > > > >Dixie
      > > > > > > accent made Gerald the Jerk Ford a creditable and almost
      > victorious
      > > > > > > cantidate - and FDR's pre-emption of the moderate left.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Scott
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >From: "Trey " <trey_palmer@...>
      > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
      > > > > > > >Subject: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
      > > > > > > >assassinated?
      > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:23:46 -0000
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >Well, what would have happened? Would the Kingfish have made a
      > > > > > > >credible run for the presidency? Or would he have been done in by
      > > >his
      > > > > > > >own crooked dealings? Or would he have continued to be governor
      > of
      > > > > > > >Louisiana? Or something else entirely?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >Trey
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Victorian Cow
      You can date the final collapse of urban America to the implementation of this decision. It was supposed to free the states from excessive rural control and it
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 1, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        You can date the final collapse of urban America to the implementation of
        this decision.

        It was supposed to free the states from excessive rural control and it did.
        However, it delivered control to the suburbs, edge cities and exurbs, not to
        the center cities.

        Absent such a shift, the state and federal infrastructure investment for
        rapid suburbanizatiuon isn't made - the freeway exits, schools, county
        lockups, etc. It all must come out of the local property tax which drives
        up costs which recues the pace of suburbanization. The settlement of the
        suburban Sun Belt is set back at least a generation. Much of it never takes
        place. The Dixie legislatures spend 20 more years playing out the race war
        instead of focusing on economic developement.

        Scott
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas P Roche" <troche@...>
        To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
        assassinated?


        > Interesting. Say this decision never happens, or Congress quickly
        > overrides it (it is one of the most obviously unconstitutional verdicts
        > the Court ever made). Consequences since then?
        >
        > Dr Thomas P. Roche
        > SUNY AT BUFFALO
        >
        > 18 1/2 Main St.
        > Cattaraugus, NY 14719
        > 716-257-3866
        > troche@...
        >
        > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
        >
        > > Please add to what is below that Baker v Carr decision of USSC never
        happens
        > > and the bulk of the nation's legislatures go on vastly over representing
        > > unpopulated rural areas and under representing the fast growing burbs.
        > >
        > >
        > > Scott
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Victorian Cow" <victoriancow2345@...>
        > > To: <alternate-history@egroups.com>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:19 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
        > > assassinated?
        > >
        > >
        > > > Key factors would be:
        > > > 1. A permanent split between the Tory Dems / Dixiecrats and the
        National
        > > > Democratic party such that the ruling coalition in Congress would be
        > > > National Democrats, Popular Front (the 50's - 60's Reds under whatever
        > > guise
        > > > or guises)and the still extant Progressive wing of the GOP - Dixie
        > > seniority
        > > > enabled them to use every major Federal spending program as a form of
        > > > regional aid.
        > > > 2. JFK does not die in Dallas - Oswald kills Jackie, Connally and 2
        > > secret
        > > > service men instead. The voting rights bill was dead before the
        > > > assassination. You want the death of Jim Crow to be much slower, more
        > > > bitter, more violent. The legal death of Jim Crow 1964 - 1975
        (approx)
        > > was
        > > > a necessary prerequisite to the South's socioeconomic integration in
        > > > America. Absent even a surface paper solution to the Race problem
        > > national
        > > > and international capital will not be comfortable investing in Dixie.
        > > > 3. The GOP takes a stand as the party of Lincoln - decides as a matter
        of
        > > > principal not to chase the Southern white racist vote as a path to
        > > national
        > > > majority. Nixon almost sided with King against his oppressors. He
        > > referred
        > > > to Dixiecrat votes as 'fool's gold.' The middle and working class
        white
        > > > suprecamists must be left marginalized with Wallace and Duke, not
        drawn
        > > into
        > > > the mainstream however slowly.
        > > > 4. The Fundmentalist Prods must decide that politics is no path to
        > > salvation
        > > > and choose withdrawl from the hopeless secular humanist world.
        > > > 5. Globalization must be slowed. The less international trade and the
        > > more
        > > > dependant Dixie is on cheap labor manufacturing.
        > > > 6. Cocaine must not become hip in the 70's. Dixie must be denied the
        > > > cocacowboy $ and broadening of horizons to the carib South.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
        > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
        > > > >assassinated?
        > > > >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:17:45 -0500 (EST)
        > > > >
        > > > >Excellent analysis. Design an ah scenario dating back to whenever
        > > > >necessary to prevent this southernization from occurring to anything
        like
        > > > >the level it has.
        > > > >
        > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
        > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
        > > > >
        > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
        > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
        > > > >716-257-3866
        > > > >troche@...
        > > > >
        > > > >On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > 1. TV, radio made a national pop culture.
        > > > > > 2. A/c, interstates, airports, fed ex, ups - linked the national
        > > > >business
        > > > > > culture in ways that were never true pre 70's
        > > > > > 3. Atlanta, Del Ray, Orlando, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte became
        > > national
        > > > > > cities with major numbers of northern born working people - the
        first
        > > > >major
        > > > > > inmigration of nonretirees to Dixie since the old SW (Alabama,
        > > > >Mississippi,
        > > > > > central - west Tennessee, interior Georgia) opened up in Andy
        > > Jackson's
        > > > >time
        > > > > > 4. up going Republican, which was the mainstream political party
        of
        > > tyhe
        > > > > > bulk of the nonurban north, large elements of Dixie culture -
        > > > >fundementalist
        > > > > > Protestantism, country music, the whole good old boy thing
        > > > > > of guns and pickups -became mainstream values
        > > > > >
        > > > > > scott
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
        > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
        been
        > > > > > >assassinated?
        > > > > > >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:03:04 -0500 (EST)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >Good point. USA last generation has been southernizing apace.
        What
        > > do
        > > > > > >you think caused this, and what would be necessary, ah-wise, to
        have
        > > > > > >prevented this, thus Bubba Clinton, etc...
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
        > > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
        > > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
        > > > > > >716-257-3866
        > > > > > >troche@...
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Victorian Cow wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Long's twin handicaps were his Dixie accent - as late as 1976
        > > > >Carter's
        > > > > > >Dixie
        > > > > > > > accent made Gerald the Jerk Ford a creditable and almost
        > > victorious
        > > > > > > > cantidate - and FDR's pre-emption of the moderate left.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Scott
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >From: "Trey " <trey_palmer@...>
        > > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
        > > > > > > > >Subject: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
        been
        > > > > > > > >assassinated?
        > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:23:46 -0000
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >Well, what would have happened? Would the Kingfish have made
        a
        > > > > > > > >credible run for the presidency? Or would he have been done
        in by
        > > > >his
        > > > > > > > >own crooked dealings? Or would he have continued to be
        governor
        > > of
        > > > > > > > >Louisiana? Or something else entirely?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >Trey
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        _________________________________________________________________
        > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
        http://explorer.msn.com
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Thomas P Roche
        How does this effect things like presidential elections, party dispersions, etc.?
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 9, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          How does this effect things like presidential elections, party
          dispersions, etc.?

          On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:

          > You can date the final collapse of urban America to the implementation of
          > this decision.
          >
          > It was supposed to free the states from excessive rural control and it did.
          > However, it delivered control to the suburbs, edge cities and exurbs, not to
          > the center cities.
          >
          > Absent such a shift, the state and federal infrastructure investment for
          > rapid suburbanizatiuon isn't made - the freeway exits, schools, county
          > lockups, etc. It all must come out of the local property tax which drives
          > up costs which recues the pace of suburbanization. The settlement of the
          > suburban Sun Belt is set back at least a generation. Much of it never takes
          > place. The Dixie legislatures spend 20 more years playing out the race war
          > instead of focusing on economic developement.
          >
          > Scott
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Thomas P Roche" <troche@...>
          > To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:07 AM
          > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
          > assassinated?
          >
          >
          > > Interesting. Say this decision never happens, or Congress quickly
          > > overrides it (it is one of the most obviously unconstitutional verdicts
          > > the Court ever made). Consequences since then?
          > >
          > > Dr Thomas P. Roche
          > > SUNY AT BUFFALO
          > >
          > > 18 1/2 Main St.
          > > Cattaraugus, NY 14719
          > > 716-257-3866
          > > troche@...
          > >
          > > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
          > >
          > > > Please add to what is below that Baker v Carr decision of USSC never
          > happens
          > > > and the bulk of the nation's legislatures go on vastly over representing
          > > > unpopulated rural areas and under representing the fast growing burbs.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Scott
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "Victorian Cow" <victoriancow2345@...>
          > > > To: <alternate-history@egroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:19 PM
          > > > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
          > > > assassinated?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > Key factors would be:
          > > > > 1. A permanent split between the Tory Dems / Dixiecrats and the
          > National
          > > > > Democratic party such that the ruling coalition in Congress would be
          > > > > National Democrats, Popular Front (the 50's - 60's Reds under whatever
          > > > guise
          > > > > or guises)and the still extant Progressive wing of the GOP - Dixie
          > > > seniority
          > > > > enabled them to use every major Federal spending program as a form of
          > > > > regional aid.
          > > > > 2. JFK does not die in Dallas - Oswald kills Jackie, Connally and 2
          > > > secret
          > > > > service men instead. The voting rights bill was dead before the
          > > > > assassination. You want the death of Jim Crow to be much slower, more
          > > > > bitter, more violent. The legal death of Jim Crow 1964 - 1975
          > (approx)
          > > > was
          > > > > a necessary prerequisite to the South's socioeconomic integration in
          > > > > America. Absent even a surface paper solution to the Race problem
          > > > national
          > > > > and international capital will not be comfortable investing in Dixie.
          > > > > 3. The GOP takes a stand as the party of Lincoln - decides as a matter
          > of
          > > > > principal not to chase the Southern white racist vote as a path to
          > > > national
          > > > > majority. Nixon almost sided with King against his oppressors. He
          > > > referred
          > > > > to Dixiecrat votes as 'fool's gold.' The middle and working class
          > white
          > > > > suprecamists must be left marginalized with Wallace and Duke, not
          > drawn
          > > > into
          > > > > the mainstream however slowly.
          > > > > 4. The Fundmentalist Prods must decide that politics is no path to
          > > > salvation
          > > > > and choose withdrawl from the hopeless secular humanist world.
          > > > > 5. Globalization must be slowed. The less international trade and the
          > > > more
          > > > > dependant Dixie is on cheap labor manufacturing.
          > > > > 6. Cocaine must not become hip in the 70's. Dixie must be denied the
          > > > > cocacowboy $ and broadening of horizons to the carib South.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
          > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
          > > > > >assassinated?
          > > > > >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:17:45 -0500 (EST)
          > > > > >
          > > > > >Excellent analysis. Design an ah scenario dating back to whenever
          > > > > >necessary to prevent this southernization from occurring to anything
          > like
          > > > > >the level it has.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
          > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
          > > > > >
          > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
          > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
          > > > > >716-257-3866
          > > > > >troche@...
          > > > > >
          > > > > >On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > 1. TV, radio made a national pop culture.
          > > > > > > 2. A/c, interstates, airports, fed ex, ups - linked the national
          > > > > >business
          > > > > > > culture in ways that were never true pre 70's
          > > > > > > 3. Atlanta, Del Ray, Orlando, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte became
          > > > national
          > > > > > > cities with major numbers of northern born working people - the
          > first
          > > > > >major
          > > > > > > inmigration of nonretirees to Dixie since the old SW (Alabama,
          > > > > >Mississippi,
          > > > > > > central - west Tennessee, interior Georgia) opened up in Andy
          > > > Jackson's
          > > > > >time
          > > > > > > 4. up going Republican, which was the mainstream political party
          > of
          > > > tyhe
          > > > > > > bulk of the nonurban north, large elements of Dixie culture -
          > > > > >fundementalist
          > > > > > > Protestantism, country music, the whole good old boy thing
          > > > > > > of guns and pickups -became mainstream values
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > scott
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
          > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
          > been
          > > > > > > >assassinated?
          > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:03:04 -0500 (EST)
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >Good point. USA last generation has been southernizing apace.
          > What
          > > > do
          > > > > > > >you think caused this, and what would be necessary, ah-wise, to
          > have
          > > > > > > >prevented this, thus Bubba Clinton, etc...
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
          > > > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
          > > > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
          > > > > > > >716-257-3866
          > > > > > > >troche@...
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Victorian Cow wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Long's twin handicaps were his Dixie accent - as late as 1976
          > > > > >Carter's
          > > > > > > >Dixie
          > > > > > > > > accent made Gerald the Jerk Ford a creditable and almost
          > > > victorious
          > > > > > > > > cantidate - and FDR's pre-emption of the moderate left.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Scott
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >From: "Trey " <trey_palmer@...>
          > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
          > > > > > > > > >Subject: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
          > been
          > > > > > > > > >assassinated?
          > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:23:46 -0000
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >Well, what would have happened? Would the Kingfish have made
          > a
          > > > > > > > > >credible run for the presidency? Or would he have been done
          > in by
          > > > > >his
          > > > > > > > > >own crooked dealings? Or would he have continued to be
          > governor
          > > > of
          > > > > > > > > >Louisiana? Or something else entirely?
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >Trey
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > _________________________________________________________________
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          > http://explorer.msn.com
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          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
          > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > _________________________________________________________________
          > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          > > > >
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        • Victorian Cow
          ... perpetuates the increasing split between the President and Senate who are directly elected and the House and legislature who are representing increasingly
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 11, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
            >Reply-To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
            >To: alternate-history@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
            >assassinated?
            >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:02:54 -0500 (EST)
            >
            >How does this effect things like presidential elections

            perpetuates the increasing split between the President and Senate who are
            directly elected and the House and legislature who are representing
            increasingly rotten boroughs.

            on a party side, it keeps a progressive gop and tory dem alive far longer
            than OTL

            Scott
            , party
            >dispersions, etc.?
            >
            >On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
            >
            > > You can date the final collapse of urban America to the implementation
            >of
            > > this decision.
            > >
            > > It was supposed to free the states from excessive rural control and it
            >did.
            > > However, it delivered control to the suburbs, edge cities and exurbs,
            >not to
            > > the center cities.
            > >
            > > Absent such a shift, the state and federal infrastructure investment for
            > > rapid suburbanizatiuon isn't made - the freeway exits, schools, county
            > > lockups, etc. It all must come out of the local property tax which
            >drives
            > > up costs which recues the pace of suburbanization. The settlement of
            >the
            > > suburban Sun Belt is set back at least a generation. Much of it never
            >takes
            > > place. The Dixie legislatures spend 20 more years playing out the race
            >war
            > > instead of focusing on economic developement.
            > >
            > > Scott
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Thomas P Roche" <troche@...>
            > > To: <alternate-history@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:07 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
            > > assassinated?
            > >
            > >
            > > > Interesting. Say this decision never happens, or Congress quickly
            > > > overrides it (it is one of the most obviously unconstitutional
            >verdicts
            > > > the Court ever made). Consequences since then?
            > > >
            > > > Dr Thomas P. Roche
            > > > SUNY AT BUFFALO
            > > >
            > > > 18 1/2 Main St.
            > > > Cattaraugus, NY 14719
            > > > 716-257-3866
            > > > troche@...
            > > >
            > > > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Please add to what is below that Baker v Carr decision of USSC never
            > > happens
            > > > > and the bulk of the nation's legislatures go on vastly over
            >representing
            > > > > unpopulated rural areas and under representing the fast growing
            >burbs.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Scott
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: "Victorian Cow" <victoriancow2345@...>
            > > > > To: <alternate-history@egroups.com>
            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:19 PM
            > > > > Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not been
            > > > > assassinated?
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > Key factors would be:
            > > > > > 1. A permanent split between the Tory Dems / Dixiecrats and the
            > > National
            > > > > > Democratic party such that the ruling coalition in Congress would
            >be
            > > > > > National Democrats, Popular Front (the 50's - 60's Reds under
            >whatever
            > > > > guise
            > > > > > or guises)and the still extant Progressive wing of the GOP - Dixie
            > > > > seniority
            > > > > > enabled them to use every major Federal spending program as a form
            >of
            > > > > > regional aid.
            > > > > > 2. JFK does not die in Dallas - Oswald kills Jackie, Connally and
            >2
            > > > > secret
            > > > > > service men instead. The voting rights bill was dead before the
            > > > > > assassination. You want the death of Jim Crow to be much slower,
            >more
            > > > > > bitter, more violent. The legal death of Jim Crow 1964 - 1975
            > > (approx)
            > > > > was
            > > > > > a necessary prerequisite to the South's socioeconomic integration
            >in
            > > > > > America. Absent even a surface paper solution to the Race problem
            > > > > national
            > > > > > and international capital will not be comfortable investing in
            >Dixie.
            > > > > > 3. The GOP takes a stand as the party of Lincoln - decides as a
            >matter
            > > of
            > > > > > principal not to chase the Southern white racist vote as a path to
            > > > > national
            > > > > > majority. Nixon almost sided with King against his oppressors.
            >He
            > > > > referred
            > > > > > to Dixiecrat votes as 'fool's gold.' The middle and working class
            > > white
            > > > > > suprecamists must be left marginalized with Wallace and Duke, not
            > > drawn
            > > > > into
            > > > > > the mainstream however slowly.
            > > > > > 4. The Fundmentalist Prods must decide that politics is no path to
            > > > > salvation
            > > > > > and choose withdrawl from the hopeless secular humanist world.
            > > > > > 5. Globalization must be slowed. The less international trade and
            >the
            > > > > more
            > > > > > dependant Dixie is on cheap labor manufacturing.
            > > > > > 6. Cocaine must not become hip in the 70's. Dixie must be denied
            >the
            > > > > > cocacowboy $ and broadening of horizons to the carib South.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
            > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
            >been
            > > > > > >assassinated?
            > > > > > >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:17:45 -0500 (EST)
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >Excellent analysis. Design an ah scenario dating back to
            >whenever
            > > > > > >necessary to prevent this southernization from occurring to
            >anything
            > > like
            > > > > > >the level it has.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
            > > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
            > > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
            > > > > > >716-257-3866
            > > > > > >troche@...
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Victorian Cow wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > 1. TV, radio made a national pop culture.
            > > > > > > > 2. A/c, interstates, airports, fed ex, ups - linked the
            >national
            > > > > > >business
            > > > > > > > culture in ways that were never true pre 70's
            > > > > > > > 3. Atlanta, Del Ray, Orlando, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte
            >became
            > > > > national
            > > > > > > > cities with major numbers of northern born working people -
            >the
            > > first
            > > > > > >major
            > > > > > > > inmigration of nonretirees to Dixie since the old SW (Alabama,
            > > > > > >Mississippi,
            > > > > > > > central - west Tennessee, interior Georgia) opened up in Andy
            > > > > Jackson's
            > > > > > >time
            > > > > > > > 4. up going Republican, which was the mainstream political
            >party
            > > of
            > > > > tyhe
            > > > > > > > bulk of the nonurban north, large elements of Dixie culture -
            > > > > > >fundementalist
            > > > > > > > Protestantism, country music, the whole good old boy thing
            > > > > > > > of guns and pickups -became mainstream values
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > scott
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >From: Thomas P Roche <troche@...>
            > > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
            > > been
            > > > > > > > >assassinated?
            > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:03:04 -0500 (EST)
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >Good point. USA last generation has been southernizing
            >apace.
            > > What
            > > > > do
            > > > > > > > >you think caused this, and what would be necessary, ah-wise,
            >to
            > > have
            > > > > > > > >prevented this, thus Bubba Clinton, etc...
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >Dr Thomas P. Roche
            > > > > > > > >SUNY AT BUFFALO
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >18 1/2 Main St.
            > > > > > > > >Cattaraugus, NY 14719
            > > > > > > > >716-257-3866
            > > > > > > > >troche@...
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Victorian Cow wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Long's twin handicaps were his Dixie accent - as late as
            >1976
            > > > > > >Carter's
            > > > > > > > >Dixie
            > > > > > > > > > accent made Gerald the Jerk Ford a creditable and almost
            > > > > victorious
            > > > > > > > > > cantidate - and FDR's pre-emption of the moderate left.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Scott
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >From: "Trey " <trey_palmer@...>
            > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > > > > > >To: alternate-history@egroups.com
            > > > > > > > > > >Subject: [alternate-history] What if Huey P. Long had not
            > > been
            > > > > > > > > > >assassinated?
            > > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:23:46 -0000
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >Well, what would have happened? Would the Kingfish have
            >made
            > > a
            > > > > > > > > > >credible run for the presidency? Or would he have been
            >done
            > > in by
            > > > > > >his
            > > > > > > > > > >own crooked dealings? Or would he have continued to be
            > > governor
            > > > > of
            > > > > > > > > > >Louisiana? Or something else entirely?
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >Trey
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > > http://explorer.msn.com
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
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            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            >_________________________________________________________________
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            >http://explorer.msn.com
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            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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          • Bucky Rea
            I disagree that Baker v Carr was obviously unconstitutional, given that the principle of one man-one vote comes directly from the constitution s requirement
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 13, 2001
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              I disagree that Baker v Carr was "obviously unconstitutional," given that
              the principle of one man-one vote comes directly from the constitution's
              requirement that the federal government ensure a republican form of
              government to all the states and that the very same principle was at work in
              the apportionment of the House at the very least since the 13th Amendment
              negated the 3/5ths clause. (To be squirmy, you can certainly argue it's
              unconstitutional; my problem is with the adverb "obviously" since obviously
              a majority of the court didn't agree with you.) But this is neither hither
              nor thither, given that this history discussion is creeping toward the
              political.

              I'd also dispute the analysis that the Baker decision is the benchmark for
              waning urban influence in politics. The reason why the suburbs trumped the
              urban communities is two-fold. First off the suburbs started growing in the
              50s & 60s. What the interstate highway did to the cities it also did to poor
              rural states like West Virginia & North Dakota.

              That is, increased mobility creates an inherent population drain on poor
              communities. Highway funds (along with steadily improving automobile quality
              & dependability for the middle class) are what turbo-boosted midcentury
              urban decay in America (altho decay is built in to most cities once they
              start getting big). Ironically it's the big city bosses and the rural bosses
              that teamed up to build the highway system, thinking that better roads
              coming into their districts would improve their economies rather than
              accellerate their declines.

              Suburbs getting bigger and getting more votes means, in a democracy, that a
              Baker decision or Baker-like Congressional deal is pretty much inevitable.
              Power will follow the votes as sure as flowers follow rain.

              I don't think I see the growth of the Sun Belt as so easily derailed. Once
              air conditioning, lower labor costs, and the oil crunch worked their magic
              on the federal economic balance, folks were going to seek opportunities down
              here regardless of a bit of race baiting by the few remaining demagogues who
              didn't know what TV was doing to their politics. Frankly I think race
              baiting played itself out about as far as it could in our history (a
              testament to the potential for ugliness in all of us), and makes for an
              excellent case study in the economics of political posturing in a democracy.
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