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Re: British invasion of Gaul in 411

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  • Duncan Head
    ... That s certainly true, though not quite what I understood Josiah to be suggesting. ... I suspect it might already have been too late for that, even if the
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 1, 2003
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      Scott, "scott palter" <agingcow2345@h...> wrote:

      > Yes but the concept of a Gallic Empire was not. There had
      > been 'empires' of Britian, Gaul, Germany [Roman] and Iberia
      > several times.

      That's certainly true, though not quite what I understood Josiah to
      be suggesting.

      > Had Constantine been willing to settle for such a 'Gallic' empire
      > and had Stilichio not contested it, it was the last chance to
      > successfully evict the barbs who had breached the Rhine in 406.

      I suspect it might already have been too late for that, even if the
      Romans had been prepared to work together. But worth investigating.
      Possibly the key is the rebellion of Gerontius in Spain against
      Constantine - it's not so much Stilicho opposing Constantine, as he
      dies in 408, as Constantius; but if Constantine's forces had remained
      unified, Constantius might have contented himself with dealing with
      the Visigoths and Heraclius in Africa.

      cheers,
      Duncan
    • scott palter
      You also need Constantine accepting that Italy remains out of bounds for him and agreeing to be a Gallic Caesar to the Imperator in Byzantium to use Diocletian
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1, 2003
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        You also need Constantine accepting that Italy remains out of bounds for him and agreeing to be a Gallic Caesar to the Imperator in Byzantium to use Diocletian terminology. I am not guaranteeing it would work but rather that it still had a chance at that point.
         
        Scott
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:44 AM
        Subject: [alternate-history] Re: British invasion of Gaul in 411

        Scott, "scott palter" <agingcow2345@h...> wrote:

        > Yes but the concept of a Gallic Empire was not.  There had
        > been 'empires' of Britian, Gaul, Germany [Roman] and Iberia
        > several times.  

        That's certainly true, though not quite what I understood Josiah to
        be suggesting.

        > Had Constantine been willing to settle for such a 'Gallic' empire
        > and had Stilichio not contested it, it was the last chance to
        > successfully evict the barbs who had breached the Rhine in 406.

        I suspect it might already have been too late for that, even if the
        Romans had been prepared to work together. But worth investigating.
        Possibly the key is the rebellion of Gerontius in Spain against
        Constantine - it's not so much Stilicho opposing Constantine, as he
        dies in 408, as Constantius; but if Constantine's forces had remained
        unified, Constantius might have contented himself with dealing with
        the Visigoths and Heraclius in Africa.

        cheers,
        Duncan



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      • scott palter
        In 400 all regarded themselves as Romans - Britannia, Gaullia, Hispania and Lusitania felt they had special links from geography, prior history. Scott ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 1, 2003
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          In 400 all regarded themselves as Romans - Britannia, Gaullia, Hispania and Lusitania felt they had special links from geography, prior history.
           
          Scott
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [alternate-history] Re: British invasion of Gaul in 411

          At Friday 8/29/2003 03:24 AM, you wrote:
          >Josiah Armes <SoliDeoGloria87@e...> wrote:
          >
          > > >1. destruction of the main Western army by the East at Frigidus 394
          > > >2. death of Theodosious in 395
          > > >3. collapse of the Rhine and with it Roman Gaul and Germany 406
          > > >4. evacuation of Britain to support yet another civil war 407
          > > >5. murder of Stilichio 408
          > > >6. Alaric sacks Rome 410
          > > >7. Imperial forces defeat British pretender in Gaul 411
          > >
          > > I have never heard of #7 before.
          >
          >The usurpation of Constantine III. See
          >http://www.britannia.com/history/bb407.html for a brief summary.
          >
          > > That would make for an interesting ATL.  I do not recall what the
          > > state of affairs in Britain itself was, at this time, but would be
          > > the consequences of a Gallic chieftain with ties to Britain?
          >
          >The Gallic aristocracy is so Romanised that the concept of a "Gallic
          >chieftain" is completely anachronistic.

          Yes.  I was unclear.  What I should have said was a "British chieftain,
          with holdings in Gaul and ties to Britain".

          SDG,
          Josiah

          Josiah Armes
          Music Major
          Stetson University
          DeLand, FL



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        • Josiah Armes
          ... Yes. I was unclear. What I should have said was a British chieftain, with holdings in Gaul and ties to Britain . SDG, Josiah Josiah Armes Music Major
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 1, 2003
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            At Friday 8/29/2003 03:24 AM, you wrote:
            >Josiah Armes <SoliDeoGloria87@e...> wrote:
            >
            > > >1. destruction of the main Western army by the East at Frigidus 394
            > > >2. death of Theodosious in 395
            > > >3. collapse of the Rhine and with it Roman Gaul and Germany 406
            > > >4. evacuation of Britain to support yet another civil war 407
            > > >5. murder of Stilichio 408
            > > >6. Alaric sacks Rome 410
            > > >7. Imperial forces defeat British pretender in Gaul 411
            > >
            > > I have never heard of #7 before.
            >
            >The usurpation of Constantine III. See
            >http://www.britannia.com/history/bb407.html for a brief summary.
            >
            > > That would make for an interesting ATL. I do not recall what the
            > > state of affairs in Britain itself was, at this time, but would be
            > > the consequences of a Gallic chieftain with ties to Britain?
            >
            >The Gallic aristocracy is so Romanised that the concept of a "Gallic
            >chieftain" is completely anachronistic.

            Yes. I was unclear. What I should have said was a "British chieftain,
            with holdings in Gaul and ties to Britain".

            SDG,
            Josiah

            Josiah Armes
            Music Major
            Stetson University
            DeLand, FL
          • Michael E. McNeil
            I d like to recommend Poul and Karen Anderson s King of Ys four novel, historical-fantasy series as an excellent perspective on the events in Gaul (and Britain
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 1, 2003
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              I'd like to recommend Poul and Karen Anderson's King of Ys four novel, historical-fantasy series as an excellent perspective on the events in Gaul (and Britain and Ireland) during the late 300's (from about 383 on) into the early 400's, including the great barbarian invasion of 406 and Constantine's rebellion, final withdrawal of troops from Britain, and departure for the continent in 407.

              While it's also a superb rip-roaring fantasy, relating the Breton legend of the destroyed city of Ys as well as many another Armorican myth and tale, where Roman history (and events and cultures beyond Ys, in Gaul, Britain, and Ireland) are concerned, Poul and Karen are right on.  Extensive -- and very interesting -- historical notes are included at the end of each volume.  Very highly recommended.

              The four books:  Roma Mater, Gallicenae, Dahut, The Dog and the Wolf.  It's also been published in one volume under the name The King of Ys.

              Michael
               
               

              scott palter wrote:

              You also need Constantine accepting that Italy remains out of bounds for him and agreeing to be a Gallic Caesar to the Imperator in Byzantium to use Diocletian terminology. I am not guaranteeing it would work but rather that it still had a chance at that point. Scott
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:44 AM
              Subject: [alternate-history] Re: British invasion of Gaul in 411
               Scott, "scott palter" <agingcow2345@h...> wrote:

              > Yes but the concept of a Gallic Empire was not.  There had
              > been 'empires' of Britian, Gaul, Germany [Roman] and Iberia
              > several times.

              That's certainly true, though not quite what I understood Josiah to
              be suggesting.

              > Had Constantine been willing to settle for such a 'Gallic' empire
              > and had Stilichio not contested it, it was the last chance to
              > successfully evict the barbs who had breached the Rhine in 406.

              I suspect it might already have been too late for that, even if the
              Romans had been prepared to work together. But worth investigating.
              Possibly the key is the rebellion of Gerontius in Spain against
              Constantine - it's not so much Stilicho opposing Constantine, as he
              dies in 408, as Constantius; but if Constantine's forces had remained
              unified, Constantius might have contented himself with dealing with
              the Visigoths and Heraclius in Africa.

              cheers,
              Duncan
               
               

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