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Overseas exams

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  • Clive Elwell
    Hi Nalu, You wrote: The British Council here in the UAE, when I checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled in a school and a no objection
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 1, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Nalu,
       
      You wrote:
      " The British Council here in the UAE,
      when I checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled
      in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even tho' the
      certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isn't attested by
      the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study any
      further in the UAE....!!!"
       
      Are you talking here about studying A levels with the Cambridge University Board in the UK?
       
      Regards
       
      Clive
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Nalu" <nalu.arif@...>
      Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear

      >
      > Hello Clive,
      >
      > Yes, home educating my son is
      based on dissatisfaction with what i
      > observed in him. Thats not to say
      all schools are bad, there are
      > probably a small percentage which
      actually would be good for kids, but
      > those are few and far
      between.
      >
      > Please feel free to use the post as you see
      fit.
      >
      > The principal of my son's school wanted to meet with me to
      discuss my
      > decision. One of the reasons i mentioned was that he was
      developing a
      > strong dislike for anything remotely resembling school
      work, including
      > reading, for which till a year back I used to have to
      say "enough".
      > Her reply was "its a phase" and right after that "some
      kids have that
      > attitude right till they leave school". I guess she was
      implying its
      > normal, and that he will grow out of it, or he won't, but
      thats no
      > reason to take him out of school. I really didnt think I would
      be
      > heard and understood, so i didnt mention the bit about the no
      homework
      > because you were good bit. I did mention that to his teacher
      tho' and
      > she said she was glad i pointed that out, since she just didnt
      think
      > of it implying homework is punishment for being bad, only that she
      was
      > trying to encourage good behaviour. Point being, there maybe
      many
      > teachers genuinely interested in the well being of the kids in
      their
      > charge, just misguided or too close to the system to see it
      clearly??
      >
      > I am quite happy with the small changes I see in my
      son in just days.
      > He picks up books to read now, on his own initiative,
      without any
      > prompting. Tho' he still calls it work, he is happy to work
      with me. I
      > am still trying out new ways, to see what works best. I
      started right
      > away, tho in a different format from school, the former to
      not give
      > him the idea that home educating is a permanent holiday, the
      latter to
      > dim the effect of the attitude regarding learning.
      >
      > It feels right, but I am apprehensive about the future even as I
      do
      > enjoy the present. Clive, you mentioned there is no reason for him
      to
      > not get the qualifications in whatever he wants to do, but see
      thats
      > just it. There is. There are pretty strict entrance requirements,
      and
      > so many years of formal schooling, and this exam and that test,
      to
      > enroll into a serious program. The British Council here in the
      UAE,
      > when i checked with them, requires a private candidate to be
      enrolled
      > in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even
      tho' the
      > certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isnt
      attested by
      > the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study
      any
      > further in the UAE....!!! That makes no sense. Especially in light
      of
      > the fact that the pdf labelled "information for private
      candidates"
      > from the britishcouncil.org website defines one, among
      other
      > definitions, as privately or self tutored. I am in an
      email
      > correspondence with the concerned person, and i'm sure I will
      be
      > making a personal visit to clarify this soon. Will update as and
      when
      > i get to know more. (If anyone else knows the specifics for any
      other
      > country, esp India, I would really appreciate a note from them.)
      So,
      > apprehension (not so much fear) is that he does have to live, earn
      and
      > thrive in a world where all these things do matter. How do we
      get
      > around that? I am just hoping things change and home education
      becomes
      > as accepted as traditional schooling within the next 10
      years.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Nalini
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:49:02 +1300, Clive Elwell <
      href="mailto:cliveelwell@...">cliveelwell@...> wrote:
      > > Hello Nalini
      > >
      > >
      > >
      Wonderful letter. What  I especially appreciate is that your actions, your
      > > taking your son out of school, was based on observation of
      what was actually
      > > happening, rather than some conviction, some
      ideal. Would you allow me to
      > > place your letter on the
      alternativeeducationindia.net website?
      > > (
      href="http://www.alternativeeducationindia.net/articles.htm">http://www.alternativeeducationindia.net/articles.htm)
      > >
      > > You are quite right to question
      me about my previous comment, Nalini. I was
      > > not suggesting we
      should pay no heed to the future of our children, rather
      > > that we
      should not sacrifice their immediate needs (as revealed by
      > >
      observation of them) to our images and fears of what might happen in the
      > > future. As a matter of fact I would say we do not give enough heed to
      the
      > > future. But that future means the total future of mankind, not
      merely the
      > > academic qualifications of our own children. Are we
      educating for a good
      > > human being; are we bringing about a quality
      of intelligence (not mere IQ)
      > > so that the child will be able to
      meet all the challenges of life when he is
      > > grown up?
      > >
      > > Yes, I have often thought how  odd it is that schools give
      out the work they
      > > have created for the learning of the students as
      a punishment as well!
      > > ("stay after school and so these exercises").
      Does this reflect the system's
      > > real attitude to what they are
      doing?
      > >
      > > This business of being qualified to do what
      one loves to do, when one has
      > > discovered what it is. Is it really a
      problem? What is to stop a young
      > > person taking those
      qualifications, when the need is there? He/she will be
      > > truly
      motivated to do that; they will give their heart to their studies.
      > >
      > > ~ Clive
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "devilnthedeepsea" <
      nalu.arif@...>
      > > To: <
      alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:03 AM
      > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello Clive,
      > > >
      > > > Glad to be on this list. Its so active!!!
      > > >
      > > > My son turned 7 last month. We relocated to the UAE four tears ago,
      > > > and initially took a while to settle down. He has spent a total of 2
      > > > complete years in school so far, and i find that he has learnt
      > > > nothing new those two years. Most of what he knows/knew came from our
      > > > sessions together which were, for him, the greatest fun, reading &
      > > > doing stuff with mom. The two years he did spent in school werent
      > > > consecutive, and what he was learning in school was a rehash of stuff
      > > > he'd already mastered with me. Bored i guess, he started with "bad"
      > > > behaviour in school.
      > > >
      > > > Another very disturbing thing i noticed is that now satisfying his
      > > > curiosity was no longer was an end in itself. he picked up this
      > > > attitude of learning being "work", to be avoided, and gotten over
      > > > with as soon as possible. Eg. his teacher writes in his diary one
      > > > day "no homework because you have been good and well behaved today".
      > > > i was upset with that!!! this insidious message that studying is
      > > > something you can avoid by exhibiting the required behaviours,
      > > > because it is something to be avoided. Not to mention the message for
      > > > their self image - getting homework daily means that they are ill
      > > > mannered and bad most of the time?? Kids become what they are told
      > > > they are - self fulfilling prophecy. I know that its one day, one
      > > > incident, but it kind of highlights all thats wrong with the
      > > > schooling philosphy (speaking for msyelf of course)and he was
      > > > starting to buy into this philosphy a bit too much for my liking.
      > > >
      > > > SO feeling the time he spent in school is
      > > > 1. a waste of years that so much can be dont with
      > > > 2. teaching him an attitude i just dont agree with
      > > > 3. spent getting into mischief out of boredom (i presume)
      > > >
      > > > reached the conclusion that home educating is the right way to go for
      > > > us.
      > > >
      > > > Personally i have always thought schools were there to turn out
      > > > obedient little workers, who know how to please authority and do as
      > > > they are told. I may be exaggerating the effect to make a point, but
      > > > its a sutble version on this attitude. yes the knowledge they impart
      > > > is highly desired, but the style they do it in, is self defeating.
      > > > They churn out literates, not educated thinking people by and large.
      > > > Yes, some manage to escape that inspite of being in school,but i dont
      > > > want to to play russian roulette with my son on that issue!!!
      > > >
      > > > Am i concerned that I might not have the skills to adequate to the
      > > > job? No, not at all. If there one thing about home educating (love
      > > > that!! so apt!!) i have absolute confidence in is my ability to open
      > > > his eyes to the joy of learning as a way of life.
      > > >
      > > > That he might fall behind others academically? I dont think so.
      > > > Anyways, academic standards in terms of marks dont really mean much.
      > > > I would look more at how able he is to satify his own curiosity,
      > > > answer his questions, once i have shown him how and where. (he asks a
      > > > lot of qs!!!! has since he learnt to talk. and even if i didnt know
      > > > the answers, we found them together) I'd look at how intelligently he
      > > > can speak to people about their interests and his own, and not just
      > > > own peers, but all ages. i definitely dont measure success in
      > > > learning by marks.
      > > >
      > > > If i do have a fear, its that one day he will grow up and say "ma, i
      > > > want to be a XYZ, and i cant get the training/knowledge/qualification
      > > > i need coz you never sent me to school."
      > > >
      > > > I have no doubt that this is absolutely the right thing to do, home
      > > > educating. But I'm also concerned it doesnt close doors for him. If
      > > > he wants to start his own enterprise, great, there's no stopping him.
      > > > But what if he wants to build buildings and bridges? what if he wants
      > > > to be a doctor? what if he wants to study the brain? all of these
      > > > cannot be done at home in a small setup. you do need the
      > > > qualifications or no one is going to let you near a
      > > > patient/bridge/neurosurgery without the requisite credentials, and i
      > > > agree completely with that!!! You have to be given the chance to
      > > > prove you know about something, or to learn something, before you can
      > > > expect to make contributions, in quite a few fields.
      > > >
      > > > It not that i dont appreciate what you are saying Clive, but perhaps
      > > > i'm not gettig across my reasons for keeping an eye on the future.
      > > >
      > > > Yes, things could change 10 years from now, when it actually comes to
      > > > his wanting to go to college, and im really hoping it does in favour
      > > > of moving away from the old school system, but i'd like to do as much
      > > > as i can in the here and now.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
      > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
      > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
      > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
      > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
      > > educating.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
      > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
      > >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
      > > >
      > > > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
      > >
      alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe
      > > by sending an email to:
      > > >
      alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > There are associated web pages at:
      > > >
      www.alternativeeducationindia.net
      > > >
      > > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data
      > > base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with
      > > others who live nearby.
      > > >
      > > > list owner:
      alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > **********************************************************************
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
      > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
      > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
      > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
      > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
      > > educating.
      > >
      > >
      > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
      > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
      > >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
      > >
      > > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
      > >
      alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by
      > > sending an email to:
      > >
      alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > There are associated web pages at:
      > >
      www.alternativeeducationindia.net
      > >
      > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base,
      > > which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others
      > > who live nearby.
      > >
      > > list owner:
      alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > **********************************************************************
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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      > >  
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      >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home educating.
      >
      >
      > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
      >
      > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to: 
      alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to:
      >
      alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > There are associated web pages at:
      >
      www.alternativeeducationindia.net
      >
      > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others who live nearby.
      >
      > list owner:
      alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > **********************************************************************
      >  
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      >
      > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >    
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      >
    • Nalu & Arif
      Hi Clive, I was talking about the O levels here, not A. I guess it would be the same as Cambridge University Board. (www.cie.org.uk) Why? Regards Nalini ...
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Clive,
         
        I was talking about the O levels here, not A. I guess it would be the same as Cambridge University Board. (www.cie.org.uk)
         
        Why?
         
        Regards
        Nalini 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:05 AM
        Subject: [alt-ed-india] Overseas exams

        Hi Nalu,
         
        You wrote:
        " The British Council here in the UAE,
        when I checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled
        in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even tho' the
        certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isn't attested by
        the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study any
        further in the UAE....!!!"
         
        Are you talking here about studying A levels with the Cambridge University Board in the UK?
         
        Regards
         
        Clive
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Nalu" <nalu.arif@...>
        Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:00 AM
        Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear

        >
        > Hello Clive,
        >
        > Yes, home educating my son is based on dissatisfaction with what i
        > observed in him. Thats not to say all schools are bad, there are
        > probably a small percentage which actually would be good for kids, but
        > those are few and far between.
        >
        > Please feel free to use the post as you see fit.
        >
        > The principal of my son's school wanted to meet with me to discuss my
        > decision. One of the reasons i mentioned was that he was developing a
        > strong dislike for anything remotely resembling school work, including
        > reading, for which till a year back I used to have to say "enough".
        > Her reply was "its a phase" and right after that "some kids have that
        > attitude right till they leave school". I guess she was implying its
        > normal, and that he will grow out of it, or he won't, but thats no
        > reason to take him out of school. I really didnt think I would be
        > heard and understood, so i didnt mention the bit about the no homework
        > because you were good bit. I did mention that to his teacher tho' and
        > she said she was glad i pointed that out, since she just didnt think
        > of it implying homework is punishment for being bad, only that she was
        > trying to encourage good behaviour. Point being, there maybe many
        > teachers genuinely interested in the well being of the kids in their
        > charge, just misguided or too close to the system to see it clearly??
        >
        > I am quite happy with the small changes I see in my son in just days.
        > He picks up books to read now, on his own initiative, without any
        > prompting. Tho' he still calls it work, he is happy to work with me. I
        > am still trying out new ways, to see what works best. I started right
        > away, tho in a different format from school, the former to not give
        > him the idea that home educating is a permanent holiday, the latter to
        > dim the effect of the attitude regarding learning.
        >
        > It feels right, but I am apprehensive about the future even as I do
        > enjoy the present. Clive, you mentioned there is no reason for him to
        > not get the qualifications in whatever he wants to do, but see thats
        > just it. There is. There are pretty strict entrance requirements, and
        > so many years of formal schooling, and this exam and that test, to
        > enroll into a serious program. The British Council here in the UAE,
        > when i checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled
        > in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even tho' the
        > certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isnt attested by
        > the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study any
        > further in the UAE....!!! That makes no sense. Especially in light of
        > the fact that the pdf labelled "information for private candidates"
        > from the britishcouncil.org website defines one, among other
        > definitions, as privately or self tutored. I am in an email
        > correspondence with the concerned person, and i'm sure I will be
        > making a personal visit to clarify this soon. Will update as and when
        > i get to know more. (If anyone else knows the specifics for any other
        > country, esp India, I would really appreciate a note from them.) So,
        > apprehension (not so much fear) is that he does have to live, earn and
        > thrive in a world where all these things do matter. How do we get
        > around that? I am just hoping things change and home education becomes
        > as accepted as traditional schooling within the next 10 years.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Nalini
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:49:02 +1300, Clive Elwell <
        cliveelwell@...> wrote:
        > > Hello Nalini
        > >
        > >
        > > Wonderful letter. What  I especially appreciate is that your actions, your
        > > taking your son out of school, was based on observation of what was actually
        > > happening, rather than some conviction, some ideal. Would you allow me to
        > > place your letter on the alternativeeducationindia.net website?
        > > (
        http://www.alternativeeducationindia.net/articles.htm)
        > >
        > > You are quite right to question me about my previous comment, Nalini. I was
        > > not suggesting we should pay no heed to the future of our children, rather
        > > that we should not sacrifice their immediate needs (as revealed by
        > > observation of them) to our images and fears of what might happen in the
        > > future. As a matter of fact I would say we do not give enough heed to the
        > > future. But that future means the total future of mankind, not merely the
        > > academic qualifications of our own children. Are we educating for a good
        > > human being; are we bringing about a quality of intelligence (not mere IQ)
        > > so that the child will be able to meet all the challenges of life when he is
        > > grown up?
        > >
        > > Yes, I have often thought how  odd it is that schools give out the work they
        > > have created for the learning of the students as a punishment as well!
        > > ("stay after school and so these exercises"). Does this reflect the system's
        > > real attitude to what they are doing?
        > >
        > > This business of being qualified to do what one loves to do, when one has
        > > discovered what it is. Is it really a problem? What is to stop a young
        > > person taking those qualifications, when the need is there? He/she will be
        > > truly motivated to do that; they will give their heart to their studies.
        > >
        > > ~ Clive
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "devilnthedeepsea" <
        nalu.arif@...>
        > > To: <
        alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:03 AM
        > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hello Clive,
        > > >
        > > > Glad to be on this list. Its so active!!!
        > > >
        > > > My son turned 7 last month. We relocated to the UAE four tears ago,
        > > > and initially took a while to settle down. He has spent a total of 2
        > > > complete years in school so far, and i find that he has learnt
        > > > nothing new those two years. Most of what he knows/knew came from our
        > > > sessions together which were, for him, the greatest fun, reading &
        > > > doing stuff with mom. The two years he did spent in school werent
        > > > consecutive, and what he was learning in school was a rehash of stuff
        > > > he'd already mastered with me. Bored i guess, he started with "bad"
        > > > behaviour in school.
        > > >
        > > > Another very disturbing thing i noticed is that now satisfying his
        > > > curiosity was no longer was an end in itself. he picked up this
        > > > attitude of learning being "work", to be avoided, and gotten over
        > > > with as soon as possible. Eg. his teacher writes in his diary one
        > > > day "no homework because you have been good and well behaved today".
        > > > i was upset with that!!! this insidious message that studying is
        > > > something you can avoid by exhibiting the required behaviours,
        > > > because it is something to be avoided. Not to mention the message for
        > > > their self image - getting homework daily means that they are ill
        > > > mannered and bad most of the time?? Kids become what they are told
        > > > they are - self fulfilling prophecy. I know that its one day, one
        > > > incident, but it kind of highlights all thats wrong with the
        > > > schooling philosphy (speaking for msyelf of course)and he was
        > > > starting to buy into this philosphy a bit too much for my liking.
        > > >
        > > > SO feeling the time he spent in school is
        > > > 1. a waste of years that so much can be dont with
        > > > 2. teaching him an attitude i just dont agree with
        > > > 3. spent getting into mischief out of boredom (i presume)
        > > >
        > > > reached the conclusion that home educating is the right way to go for
        > > > us.
        > > >
        > > > Personally i have always thought schools were there to turn out
        > > > obedient little workers, who know how to please authority and do as
        > > > they are told. I may be exaggerating the effect to make a point, but
        > > > its a sutble version on this attitude. yes the knowledge they impart
        > > > is highly desired, but the style they do it in, is self defeating.
        > > > They churn out literates, not educated thinking people by and large.
        > > > Yes, some manage to escape that inspite of being in school,but i dont
        > > > want to to play russian roulette with my son on that issue!!!
        > > >
        > > > Am i concerned that I might not have the skills to adequate to the
        > > > job? No, not at all. If there one thing about home educating (love
        > > > that!! so apt!!) i have absolute confidence in is my ability to open
        > > > his eyes to the joy of learning as a way of life.
        > > >
        > > > That he might fall behind others academically? I dont think so.
        > > > Anyways, academic standards in terms of marks dont really mean much.
        > > > I would look more at how able he is to satify his own curiosity,
        > > > answer his questions, once i have shown him how and where. (he asks a
        > > > lot of qs!!!! has since he learnt to talk. and even if i didnt know
        > > > the answers, we found them together) I'd look at how intelligently he
        > > > can speak to people about their interests and his own, and not just
        > > > own peers, but all ages. i definitely dont measure success in
        > > > learning by marks.
        > > >
        > > > If i do have a fear, its that one day he will grow up and say "ma, i
        > > > want to be a XYZ, and i cant get the training/knowledge/qualification
        > > > i need coz you never sent me to school."
        > > >
        > > > I have no doubt that this is absolutely the right thing to do, home
        > > > educating. But I'm also concerned it doesnt close doors for him. If
        > > > he wants to start his own enterprise, great, there's no stopping him.
        > > > But what if he wants to build buildings and bridges? what if he wants
        > > > to be a doctor? what if he wants to study the brain? all of these
        > > > cannot be done at home in a small setup. you do need the
        > > > qualifications or no one is going to let you near a
        > > > patient/bridge/neurosurgery without the requisite credentials, and i
        > > > agree completely with that!!! You have to be given the chance to
        > > > prove you know about something, or to learn something, before you can
        > > > expect to make contributions, in quite a few fields.
        > > >
        > > > It not that i dont appreciate what you are saying Clive, but perhaps
        > > > i'm not gettig across my reasons for keeping an eye on the future.
        > > >
        > > > Yes, things could change 10 years from now, when it actually comes to
        > > > his wanting to go to college, and im really hoping it does in favour
        > > > of moving away from the old school system, but i'd like to do as much
        > > > as i can in the here and now.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
        > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
        > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
        > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
        > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
        > > educating.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
        > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
        > >
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
        > > >
        > > > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
        > >
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        > > by sending an email to:
        > > >
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        > > >
        > > > There are associated web pages at:
        > > >
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        > > >
        > > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data
        > > base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with
        > > others who live nearby.
        > > >
        > > > list owner:
        alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > **********************************************************************
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
        > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
        > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
        > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
        > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
        > > educating.
        > >
        > >
        > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
        > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
        > >
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        > >
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        > >
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        > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base,
        > > which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others
        > > who live nearby.
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        > >
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        >
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        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home educating.


        If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india

        To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:  alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com

        If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to:
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        There are associated web pages at:
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        Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others who live nearby.

        list owner: alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com

        **********************************************************************


      • Rajesh Lele
        Dear All, I refer to a previous point made by Nalu re her son s reading habits. My point and suggestion would be to not get too carried away by the enthusiasm
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear All,

          I refer to a previous point made by Nalu re her son's reading habits.

          My point and suggestion would be to not get too carried away by the
          enthusiasm or lack of it for reading, as a sign of willingness to
          learn.

          Each child (an adult) have a certain natural likeness for certain
          methods of receiving inputs. Reading is just one of them. Other
          children may be more oriented towards listening, reflecting and
          understanding, while others may want to 'do' or practice or physically
          experience what they are are being taught.

          These are called learning styles. Each child (and adult) has a
          dominant learning style. However, be mindful, that different types of
          topics may be better served by using different educational approaches.
          e.g. understanding leaves, could be better taught by asking the child
          to go in the nearby park, collect a few and study them. - An
          experiential approach, rather than an oral one.

          So, don't worry if a child cannot or does not read. Find out what he
          likes to do and see if the topic can be better taught through a verbal
          discussion, outdoor activity or pictures from a book.

          Re the British Council norms, will find out from the Mumbai library
          sometime this month and keep you all posted.

          Hope this helps.

          --
          Warm Regards

          Rajesh Lele

          >
          >
        • Clive Elwell
          Just for clarification ~ Clive ... From: Nalu & Arif To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india]
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 3, 2005
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            Just for clarification
            ~ Clive
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Overseas exams

            Hi Clive,
             
            I was talking about the O levels here, not A. I guess it would be the same as Cambridge University Board. (www.cie.org.uk)
             
            Why?
             
            Regards
            Nalini 
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:05 AM
            Subject: [alt-ed-india] Overseas exams

            Hi Nalu,
             
            You wrote:
            " The British Council here in the UAE,
            when I checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled
            in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even tho' the
            certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isn't attested by
            the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study any
            further in the UAE....!!!"
             
            Are you talking here about studying A levels with the Cambridge University Board in the UK?
             
            Regards
             
            Clive
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Nalu" <nalu.arif@...>
            Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:00 AM
            Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear

            >
            > Hello Clive,
            >
            > Yes, home educating my son is based on dissatisfaction with what i
            > observed in him. Thats not to say all schools are bad, there are
            > probably a small percentage which actually would be good for kids, but
            > those are few and far between.
            >
            > Please feel free to use the post as you see fit.
            >
            > The principal of my son's school wanted to meet with me to discuss my
            > decision. One of the reasons i mentioned was that he was developing a
            > strong dislike for anything remotely resembling school work, including
            > reading, for which till a year back I used to have to say "enough".
            > Her reply was "its a phase" and right after that "some kids have that
            > attitude right till they leave school". I guess she was implying its
            > normal, and that he will grow out of it, or he won't, but thats no
            > reason to take him out of school. I really didnt think I would be
            > heard and understood, so i didnt mention the bit about the no homework
            > because you were good bit. I did mention that to his teacher tho' and
            > she said she was glad i pointed that out, since she just didnt think
            > of it implying homework is punishment for being bad, only that she was
            > trying to encourage good behaviour. Point being, there maybe many
            > teachers genuinely interested in the well being of the kids in their
            > charge, just misguided or too close to the system to see it clearly??
            >
            > I am quite happy with the small changes I see in my son in just days.
            > He picks up books to read now, on his own initiative, without any
            > prompting. Tho' he still calls it work, he is happy to work with me. I
            > am still trying out new ways, to see what works best. I started right
            > away, tho in a different format from school, the former to not give
            > him the idea that home educating is a permanent holiday, the latter to
            > dim the effect of the attitude regarding learning.
            >
            > It feels right, but I am apprehensive about the future even as I do
            > enjoy the present. Clive, you mentioned there is no reason for him to
            > not get the qualifications in whatever he wants to do, but see thats
            > just it. There is. There are pretty strict entrance requirements, and
            > so many years of formal schooling, and this exam and that test, to
            > enroll into a serious program. The British Council here in the UAE,
            > when i checked with them, requires a private candidate to be enrolled
            > in a school and a no objection letter from the school, even tho' the
            > certificate gained thru a private taking of the exams isnt attested by
            > the UAE ministry of education and so the person cannot study any
            > further in the UAE....!!! That makes no sense. Especially in light of
            > the fact that the pdf labelled "information for private candidates"
            > from the britishcouncil.org website defines one, among other
            > definitions, as privately or self tutored. I am in an email
            > correspondence with the concerned person, and i'm sure I will be
            > making a personal visit to clarify this soon. Will update as and when
            > i get to know more. (If anyone else knows the specifics for any other
            > country, esp India, I would really appreciate a note from them.) So,
            > apprehension (not so much fear) is that he does have to live, earn and
            > thrive in a world where all these things do matter. How do we get
            > around that? I am just hoping things change and home education becomes
            > as accepted as traditional schooling within the next 10 years.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Nalini
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:49:02 +1300, Clive Elwell <
            cliveelwell@...> wrote:
            > > Hello Nalini
            > >
            > >
            > > Wonderful letter. What  I especially appreciate is that your actions, your
            > > taking your son out of school, was based on observation of what was actually
            > > happening, rather than some conviction, some ideal. Would you allow me to
            > > place your letter on the alternativeeducationindia.net website?
            > > (
            http://www.alternativeeducationindia.net/articles.htm)
            > >
            > > You are quite right to question me about my previous comment, Nalini. I was
            > > not suggesting we should pay no heed to the future of our children, rather
            > > that we should not sacrifice their immediate needs (as revealed by
            > > observation of them) to our images and fears of what might happen in the
            > > future. As a matter of fact I would say we do not give enough heed to the
            > > future. But that future means the total future of mankind, not merely the
            > > academic qualifications of our own children. Are we educating for a good
            > > human being; are we bringing about a quality of intelligence (not mere IQ)
            > > so that the child will be able to meet all the challenges of life when he is
            > > grown up?
            > >
            > > Yes, I have often thought how  odd it is that schools give out the work they
            > > have created for the learning of the students as a punishment as well!
            > > ("stay after school and so these exercises"). Does this reflect the system's
            > > real attitude to what they are doing?
            > >
            > > This business of being qualified to do what one loves to do, when one has
            > > discovered what it is. Is it really a problem? What is to stop a young
            > > person taking those qualifications, when the need is there? He/she will be
            > > truly motivated to do that; they will give their heart to their studies.
            > >
            > > ~ Clive
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "devilnthedeepsea" <
            nalu.arif@...>
            > > To: <
            alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:03 AM
            > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Re: the basic problem is fear
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello Clive,
            > > >
            > > > Glad to be on this list. Its so active!!!
            > > >
            > > > My son turned 7 last month. We relocated to the UAE four tears ago,
            > > > and initially took a while to settle down. He has spent a total of 2
            > > > complete years in school so far, and i find that he has learnt
            > > > nothing new those two years. Most of what he knows/knew came from our
            > > > sessions together which were, for him, the greatest fun, reading &
            > > > doing stuff with mom. The two years he did spent in school werent
            > > > consecutive, and what he was learning in school was a rehash of stuff
            > > > he'd already mastered with me. Bored i guess, he started with "bad"
            > > > behaviour in school.
            > > >
            > > > Another very disturbing thing i noticed is that now satisfying his
            > > > curiosity was no longer was an end in itself. he picked up this
            > > > attitude of learning being "work", to be avoided, and gotten over
            > > > with as soon as possible. Eg. his teacher writes in his diary one
            > > > day "no homework because you have been good and well behaved today".
            > > > i was upset with that!!! this insidious message that studying is
            > > > something you can avoid by exhibiting the required behaviours,
            > > > because it is something to be avoided. Not to mention the message for
            > > > their self image - getting homework daily means that they are ill
            > > > mannered and bad most of the time?? Kids become what they are told
            > > > they are - self fulfilling prophecy. I know that its one day, one
            > > > incident, but it kind of highlights all thats wrong with the
            > > > schooling philosphy (speaking for msyelf of course)and he was
            > > > starting to buy into this philosphy a bit too much for my liking.
            > > >
            > > > SO feeling the time he spent in school is
            > > > 1. a waste of years that so much can be dont with
            > > > 2. teaching him an attitude i just dont agree with
            > > > 3. spent getting into mischief out of boredom (i presume)
            > > >
            > > > reached the conclusion that home educating is the right way to go for
            > > > us.
            > > >
            > > > Personally i have always thought schools were there to turn out
            > > > obedient little workers, who know how to please authority and do as
            > > > they are told. I may be exaggerating the effect to make a point, but
            > > > its a sutble version on this attitude. yes the knowledge they impart
            > > > is highly desired, but the style they do it in, is self defeating.
            > > > They churn out literates, not educated thinking people by and large.
            > > > Yes, some manage to escape that inspite of being in school,but i dont
            > > > want to to play russian roulette with my son on that issue!!!
            > > >
            > > > Am i concerned that I might not have the skills to adequate to the
            > > > job? No, not at all. If there one thing about home educating (love
            > > > that!! so apt!!) i have absolute confidence in is my ability to open
            > > > his eyes to the joy of learning as a way of life.
            > > >
            > > > That he might fall behind others academically? I dont think so.
            > > > Anyways, academic standards in terms of marks dont really mean much.
            > > > I would look more at how able he is to satify his own curiosity,
            > > > answer his questions, once i have shown him how and where. (he asks a
            > > > lot of qs!!!! has since he learnt to talk. and even if i didnt know
            > > > the answers, we found them together) I'd look at how intelligently he
            > > > can speak to people about their interests and his own, and not just
            > > > own peers, but all ages. i definitely dont measure success in
            > > > learning by marks.
            > > >
            > > > If i do have a fear, its that one day he will grow up and say "ma, i
            > > > want to be a XYZ, and i cant get the training/knowledge/qualification
            > > > i need coz you never sent me to school."
            > > >
            > > > I have no doubt that this is absolutely the right thing to do, home
            > > > educating. But I'm also concerned it doesnt close doors for him. If
            > > > he wants to start his own enterprise, great, there's no stopping him.
            > > > But what if he wants to build buildings and bridges? what if he wants
            > > > to be a doctor? what if he wants to study the brain? all of these
            > > > cannot be done at home in a small setup. you do need the
            > > > qualifications or no one is going to let you near a
            > > > patient/bridge/neurosurgery without the requisite credentials, and i
            > > > agree completely with that!!! You have to be given the chance to
            > > > prove you know about something, or to learn something, before you can
            > > > expect to make contributions, in quite a few fields.
            > > >
            > > > It not that i dont appreciate what you are saying Clive, but perhaps
            > > > i'm not gettig across my reasons for keeping an eye on the future.
            > > >
            > > > Yes, things could change 10 years from now, when it actually comes to
            > > > his wanting to go to college, and im really hoping it does in favour
            > > > of moving away from the old school system, but i'd like to do as much
            > > > as i can in the here and now.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
            > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
            > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
            > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
            > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
            > > educating.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
            > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
            > >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
            > > >
            > > > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
            > >
            alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe
            > > by sending an email to:
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            alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            > > > There are associated web pages at:
            > > >
            www.alternativeeducationindia.net
            > > >
            > > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data
            > > base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with
            > > others who live nearby.
            > > >
            > > > list owner:
            alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > **********************************************************************
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            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            > > >
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            > > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
            > > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
            > > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate.
            > > The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
            > > questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home
            > > educating.
            > >
            > >
            > > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
            > > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
            > >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
            > >
            > > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
            > >
            alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
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            > > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by
            > > sending an email to:
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            > > There are associated web pages at:
            > >
            www.alternativeeducationindia.net
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            > > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base,
            > > which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others
            > > who live nearby.
            > >
            > > list owner:
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            > >
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            > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home educating.
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            > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
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            alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
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            > There are associated web pages at:
            >
            www.alternativeeducationindia.net
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            > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others who live nearby.
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            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home educating.


            If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india

            To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:  alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com

            If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to:
            alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            There are associated web pages at:
            www.alternativeeducationindia.net

            Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others who live nearby.

            list owner: alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com

            **********************************************************************




            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to  support those who are home educating.


            If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india

            To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:  alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com

            If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to:
            alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            There are associated web pages at:
            www.alternativeeducationindia.net

            Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact with others who live nearby.

            list owner: alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com

            **********************************************************************


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