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Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

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  • irisversicolor
    I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog. http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html Hope this
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 27, 2010
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      I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

      http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

      Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

      If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

      Paula
    • Chandrashekara K A
      Thank you Paula. I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 27, 2010
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        Thank you Paula.

        I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

        I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

        --chandra

        On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
         

        I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

        http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

        Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

        If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

        Paula


      • pushkarni panchamukhi
        Try narrating stories through Srimad Bhagvatam in English brought out by ISKCON. They help children understand all these terms through stories which have very
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 27, 2010
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          Try narrating stories through Srimad Bhagvatam in English brought out by ISKCON. They help children understand all these terms through stories which have very deep philosophical meaning. My son who is 5 yrs old understood what it is to be detached after reading the story of King Bharata and how he got the body of a deer after being extremely attached to one.
           
          Regards
          Pushkarni

          --- On Tue, 9/28/10, Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...> wrote:

          From: Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...>
          Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog
          To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: "irisversicolor" <laboroetoro@...>
          Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 7:26 AM

           
          Thank you Paula.

          I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

          I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

          --chandra

          On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
           
          I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

          http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

          Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

          If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

          Paula



        • irisversicolor
          Hi, Chandra, I think it is difficult and easy at the same time.(But please, I am a mum and learning on the job as well!) If it is too much theory, it probably
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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            Hi, Chandra,

            I think it is difficult and easy at the same time.(But please, I am a mum and learning on the job as well!)
            If it is too much theory, it probably is very difficult.
            However, if you start with stories that resonate with your son's life, it might be a lot easier.
            Would 'Buddha Boy' help? It is a story about two boys (teens).
            Or Wide Awake, Buddhism for Teens? (also on my blog).
            I saw a nice You-Tube movie of Thich Nhat Hanh (a Vietnamese Buddhist) answering questions of teens, would that be a good starting point?
            I mean: start from a point very close to your son's life (his questions or his fields of interests, his worries, his thoughts) and go from there.
            Religious education that isn't relevant to our questions, worries or problems might just float by like a cloud. We like religious education to help and bring insights, especially for kids, that have an immediate positive effect.
            I think you will do a very good job, since you are sensitive to actually see what works (and what doesn't work).

            Paula
            --
            http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/Menu.html





            --- In alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com, Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you Paula.
            >
            > I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts
            > of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a
            > very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha
            > to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt
            > inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is
            > 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out
            > to be) before they start understanding terms like that.
            >
            > I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.
            >
            > --chandra
            >
            > On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
            > >
            > > I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.
            > >
            > > http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html
            > >
            > > Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.
            > >
            > > If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a
            > > comment.
            > >
            > > Paula
            > >
            > >
            >
          • irisversicolor
            Hi, Chandra, I think it is difficult and easy at the same time.(But please, I am a mum and learning on the job as well!) If it is too much theory, it probably
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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              Hi, Chandra,

              I think it is difficult and easy at the same time.(But please, I am a mum and learning on the job as well!)
              If it is too much theory, it probably is very difficult.
              However, if you start with stories that resonate with your son's life, it might be a lot easier.
              Would 'Buddha Boy' help? It is a story about two boys (teens).
              Or Wide Awake, Buddhism for Teens? (also on my blog).
              I saw a nice You-Tube movie of Thich Nhat Hanh (a Vietnamese Buddhist) answering questions of teens, would that be a good starting point?
              I mean: start from a point very close to your son's life (his questions or his fields of interests, his worries, his thoughts) and go from there.
              Religious education that isn't relevant to our questions, worries or problems might just float by like a cloud. We like religious education to help and bring insights, especially for kids, that have an immediate positive effect.
              I think you will do a very good job, since you are sensitive to actually see what works (and what doesn't work).

              Paula
              --
              http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/Menu.html





              --- In alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com, Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Paula.
              >
              > I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts
              > of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a
              > very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha
              > to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt
              > inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is
              > 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out
              > to be) before they start understanding terms like that.
              >
              > I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.
              >
              > --chandra
              >
              > On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
              > >
              > > I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.
              > >
              > > http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html
              > >
              > > Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.
              > >
              > > If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a
              > > comment.
              > >
              > > Paula
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Hema
              Dear Chandra, I think if one makes these things too dry and intellectual, kids that young lose interest very quickly. Last year as a part of the third grade
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                Dear Chandra,
                I think if one makes these things too dry and intellectual, kids that young lose interest very quickly.
                Last year as a part of the third grade Waldorf Curriculum we studied the Old Testament, which can be heavy and ponderous. But because it was mostly taught through stories and paintings and songs and poems - all of which anyway encompass the underlying philosophy- my daughter loved it. In fact one day she and her friends were play acting Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, parting of the Red Sea and all. So worried as I was about the serious nature of the Old Testament, my DD has assimilated it on her level.
                Both Jainism and Buddhism also have plenty of stories which would appeal to children rather than cerebral ideas like Moksha and enlightenment etc.
                Regards,

                Hema
              • Sangeetha J.Krishnan
                Hello ChandraI am a homeschooling mom from Pune with daughters aged 4 & 2 yrs. I think every time we parents think of trying to teach religion we do get
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                  Hello Chandra
                  I am a homeschooling mom from Pune with daughters aged 4 & 2 yrs. I think every time we parents think of trying to teach religion we do get stumped..Especially if you go by what the current day textbooks say then it can get heavy for our own understanding forget for the children.. 

                  The main thing that one should  ponder about when talking about religion is not about explaining the actual facts or events but what is the hidden meaning behind it. Because a lot of things that we know as facts are/might be stories or mythology made for easier understanding for children in the first place..If you look at many things in Hinduism they do sound really really funny/stupid but the question is did it really happen that way and if it did not how come we are talking about it? You might have heard about this game where people sit in a circle , one comes up with a story/sentence and starts to whisper it in the ears of the person sitting next to him...the game goes on & on and finally by the time it comes back to the person who started the story its a completely different version or a version with many changes in it. The same holds for religion too..when we are talking about characters who lived 1000s of years ago we need to keep in mind that some kind of distortion whether done with a good or bad intention has certainly taken place. So the question that needs to be first pondered about with the child is whether what we read really could have happened and if not what did happen/ what could have happened? 
                  That takes away the gods did " super magic" kind of stuff and makes the child connect with characters like Buddha or Avatars like Ram & Krishna in a human way, which is the very purpose behind why one needs to know about religion..This also requires that we try to find the true/hidden meaning behind everything that's been told to us . For eg: When you look at Krishna's life there are so many supposedly " magical things" He did. As a small child He had fought with Kaalika snake...I mean could it be really true that such a small child could fight a huge snake? The actual fact is that Kaalika were a tribe who were residing on the banks of the river Yamuna and were creating a lot of trouble for those using the river/ were using it as a source of holding power . Krishna was the only child who mustered up courage to talk to the elders and kind of motivate them to fight against such a tribe ....The hidden meaning behind this that even if one is a small child one can take up activities much much beyond their own capabilities if they have the courage too..They too can make a change! This way the " magical " aspect of our Gods can be done away & their human qualities can be understood which in turn can be applied in our own lives.. Another example is of Krishna stealing butter? What was the need for him to do that? He was raised in a rich family which had plenty of butter. He stole it primarily to distribute it to other children whose families were selling off all their butter for commercial purposes to Mathura..So what we can learn from this that if we have surplus of something we can share it with those that don't..The hidden meaning is also sharing of good thoughts..


                  The second thing is to wonder how the teaching or the character's life can be applied to child at his/her specific age? For example : Enlightenment- to become enlightened, to become bright- through learnings: just like how one learns from books, others etc.. the Qs that can be posed to the child are "So what does real learning mean? what happened to Buddha when He became enlightened? How did start to treat others/nature/himself? You can ask the child" Has there been a situation where you read / saw something that made you behave differently with others/your siblings?"  When something you learned changed your attitude towards nature? your ownself? then the child becomes " enlightened" in that specific area/situation.. For eg: When my 4 yr old was read a story about how an elephant learned to be a good leader, she was trying to be a " good leader" with her sister the entire day- she would share beautifully, help/assist her sister etc..So in a way she got " enlightened/ saw the light" for a day. The difference is that it happened to her for a very short period of time but for the Buddha it happened for the rest of his life. So this way we can make a connection with our children for anything in religion and isn't that the original idea behind religion culture at all? That we understand what is it that we can apply in our lives?


                  As a family we try to incorporate all festivals in our Hsing routine..So if its Janmaashtami we enact out various things from Krishna's life while talking about the actual meaning / hidden meaning in a manner that even my 4 yr old can understand. So when I gave her butter and asked her to share it with her siblings who were not given butter she immediately got the idea. Same thing with the Kaalika snake episode..After enacting it out where the kids had an amazing time beating up the snake ( which was me!) they were asked to do a huge A to Z puzzle which was in a sense way beyond my 4 yr old's capability since she had just started to learn to recognize the alphabets.......When celebrating Ganpati we talked about the idea of having a guest at home- how did she feel about it? did she like it? etc..

                  Hope this helps..
                  Thanks
                  Sangeetha.




                  To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                  From: hgopinathan@...
                  Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:35:17 +0000
                  Subject: [alt-ed-india] Re: Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

                   
                  Dear Chandra,
                  I think if one makes these things too dry and intellectual, kids that young lose interest very quickly.
                  Last year as a part of the third grade Waldorf Curriculum we studied the Old Testament, which can be heavy and ponderous. But because it was mostly taught through stories and paintings and songs and poems - all of which anyway encompass the underlying philosophy- my daughter loved it. In fact one day she and her friends were play acting Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, parting of the Red Sea and all. So worried as I was about the serious nature of the Old Testament, my DD has assimilated it on her level.
                  Both Jainism and Buddhism also have plenty of stories which would appeal to children rather than cerebral ideas like Moksha and enlightenment etc.
                  Regards,

                  Hema


                • Chandrashekara K A
                  Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail. BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed. I think you are conflating
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                    Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.

                    BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.

                    I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions under curricular headings like "Jainism".

                    Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.

                    I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?

                    This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were) and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.

                    I continue to think religions are for elders.

                    --chandra

                    On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:
                    Thank you Paula.

                    I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

                    I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

                    --chandra

                    On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
                     

                    I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

                    http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

                    Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

                    If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

                    Paula



                  • Yugandhar S
                    “The actual fact is that Kaalika were a tribe who were residing on the banks of the river Yamuna and were creating a lot of trouble…” Dear Sangeetha, I
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                      “The actual fact is that Kaalika were a tribe who were residing on the banks of the river Yamuna and were creating a lot of trouble…”

                       

                      Dear Sangeetha,

                        I understand and agree on many things put forward by you. But I am really at loss about the statement you made about Kaalika. I would like to know from where you got this piece of info, and I am asking this in true ignorance. I never heard or read this version anywhere until now. On a lighter note, you are also playing the 'whisper' game. Your kids will register your version of the story and pass it on. One more deviation from the original!!


                      Even though it is true that we have to explain the true meaning of the actions or episodes from mythology/religion/spirituality, I do not think it is apt to take away the magic from them. It is the same magic that kept all of us interested and engaged as kids. Now, since we are grown up we may feel that all that is foolish or stupid, because we have acquired lot of useless knowledge, especially ‘scientific facts’. Remember that even today we can find many instances where science has no explanation at all. If we have to collect or give examples like the one about ‘Kaalika’ that it was a tribe etc., we would have to do it may be for 99% of our religious and mythological texts, a gargantuan task. All our religious texts describe Krishna as an extraordinary child only. There is no ordinary thing about him. That is what makes him special. To explain about sharing (the butter example) or resolving disputes(the Kaalika/Kaaliya example), we could just pick up any contemporary story from our society to illustrate. There is no need to remove the magic from our ancient stories to make a point. If we ponder a little, we understand that the too much of facts (backed by science) and too less of magic is really killing today’s child. Moreover there are these 'reality' shows on TV 

                       

                      And we have to make a clear distinction between religion and spirituality first. Spiritual things are very easy and very tough at the same time for us adults, and there is no hurry to teach these things to very young children. Instead, I think preparing them with a gateway to spirituality by ways of religion, culture, traditions, music etc will be more beneficial.


                      Finally to quote you again:
                      "Because a lot of things that we know as facts are/might be stories or mythology made for easier understanding for children in the first place.."
                      When they are made for easier understanding, why to skew then again?

                      Best Regards
                      Yugandhar

                      On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Sangeetha J.Krishnan <s_j_krish@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hello Chandra

                      I am a homeschooling mom from Pune with daughters aged 4 & 2 yrs. I think every time we parents think of trying to teach religion we do get stumped..Especially if you go by what the current day textbooks say then it can get heavy for our own understanding forget for the children.. 

                      The main thing that one should  ponder about when talking about religion is not about explaining the actual facts or events but what is the hidden meaning behind it. Because a lot of things that we know as facts are/might be stories or mythology made for easier understanding for children in the first place..If you look at many things in Hinduism they do sound really really funny/stupid but the question is did it really happen that way and if it did not how come we are talking about it? You might have heard about this game where people sit in a circle , one comes up with a story/sentence and starts to whisper it in the ears of the person sitting next to him...the game goes on & on and finally by the time it comes back to the person who started the story its a completely different version or a version with many changes in it. The same holds for religion too..when we are talking about characters who lived 1000s of years ago we need to keep in mind that some kind of distortion whether done with a good or bad intention has certainly taken place. So the question that needs to be first pondered about with the child is whether what we read really could have happened and if not what did happen/ what could have happened? 
                      That takes away the gods did " super magic" kind of stuff and makes the child connect with characters like Buddha or Avatars like Ram & Krishna in a human way, which is the very purpose behind why one needs to know about religion..This also requires that we try to find the true/hidden meaning behind everything that's been told to us . For eg: When you look at Krishna's life there are so many supposedly " magical things" He did. As a small child He had fought with Kaalika snake...I mean could it be really true that such a small child could fight a huge snake? The actual fact is that Kaalika were a tribe who were residing on the banks of the river Yamuna and were creating a lot of trouble for those using the river/ were using it as a source of holding power . Krishna was the only child who mustered up courage to talk to the elders and kind of motivate them to fight against such a tribe ....The hidden meaning behind this that even if one is a small child one can take up activities much much beyond their own capabilities if they have the courage too..They too can make a change! This way the " magical " aspect of our Gods can be done away & their human qualities can be understood which in turn can be applied in our own lives.. Another example is of Krishna stealing butter? What was the need for him to do that? He was raised in a rich family which had plenty of butter. He stole it primarily to distribute it to other children whose families were selling off all their butter for commercial purposes to Mathura..So what we can learn from this that if we have surplus of something we can share it with those that don't..The hidden meaning is also sharing of good thoughts..


                      The second thing is to wonder how the teaching or the character's life can be applied to child at his/her specific age? For example : Enlightenment- to become enlightened, to become bright- through learnings: just like how one learns from books, others etc.. the Qs that can be posed to the child are "So what does real learning mean? what happened to Buddha when He became enlightened? How did start to treat others/nature/himself? You can ask the child" Has there been a situation where you read / saw something that made you behave differently with others/your siblings?"  When something you learned changed your attitude towards nature? your ownself? then the child becomes " enlightened" in that specific area/situation.. For eg: When my 4 yr old was read a story about how an elephant learned to be a good leader, she was trying to be a " good leader" with her sister the entire day- she would share beautifully, help/assist her sister etc..So in a way she got " enlightened/ saw the light" for a day. The difference is that it happened to her for a very short period of time but for the Buddha it happened for the rest of his life. So this way we can make a connection with our children for anything in religion and isn't that the original idea behind religion culture at all? That we understand what is it that we can apply in our lives?


                      As a family we try to incorporate all festivals in our Hsing routine..So if its Janmaashtami we enact out various things from Krishna's life while talking about the actual meaning / hidden meaning in a manner that even my 4 yr old can understand. So when I gave her butter and asked her to share it with her siblings who were not given butter she immediately got the idea. Same thing with the Kaalika snake episode..After enacting it out where the kids had an amazing time beating up the snake ( which was me!) they were asked to do a huge A to Z puzzle which was in a sense way beyond my 4 yr old's capability since she had just started to learn to recognize the alphabets.......When celebrating Ganpati we talked about the idea of having a guest at home- how did she feel about it? did she like it? etc..

                      Hope this helps..
                      Thanks
                      Sangeetha.




                      To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                      From: hgopinathan@...
                      Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:35:17 +0000
                      Subject: [alt-ed-india] Re: Buddhism-educational resources on my blog


                       
                      Dear Chandra,
                      I think if one makes these things too dry and intellectual, kids that young lose interest very quickly.
                      Last year as a part of the third grade Waldorf Curriculum we studied the Old Testament, which can be heavy and ponderous. But because it was mostly taught through stories and paintings and songs and poems - all of which anyway encompass the underlying philosophy- my daughter loved it. In fact one day she and her friends were play acting Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, parting of the Red Sea and all. So worried as I was about the serious nature of the Old Testament, my DD has assimilated it on her level.
                      Both Jainism and Buddhism also have plenty of stories which would appeal to children rather than cerebral ideas like Moksha and enlightenment etc.
                      Regards,

                      Hema



                    • dheeraj.girdhar@Linde-LE.com
                      ... When ur hairs fell down, teeth fell down,no energy to do anything, then think of religion........just like reading manual after like of car is gone. ...
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                        > I continue to think religions are for elders.

                        When ur hairs fell down, teeth fell down,no energy to do anything, then think of religion........just like reading manual after like of car is gone.

                        alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com wrote on 28/09/2010 17:38:59:

                        >  

                        > Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.
                        >
                        > BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.
                        >
                        > I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching
                        religions
                        > under curricular headings like "Jainism".
                        >
                        > Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral
                        > education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the
                        > story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and
                        > leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont
                        be able
                        > to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.
                        >
                        > I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from,
                        > say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year
                        > old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our
                        > own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and
                        > how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not
                        > Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?
                        >
                        > This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were)
                        > and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a
                        > comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the
                        > neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year
                        old.
                        >
                        > I continue to think religions are for elders.
                        >
                        > --chandra
                        >
                        > On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:

                        > Thank you Paula.
                        >
                        > I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism
                        > parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like
                        > it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity,
                        > detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations
                        > worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much
                        > for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the
                        > number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms
                        like that.
                        >
                        > I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.
                        >
                        > --chandra
                        >
                        > On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:

                        >  
                        > I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.
                        >
                        > http://web.mac.
                        > com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html
                        >
                        > Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.
                        >
                        > If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a
                        comment.
                        >
                        > Paula

                        >
                        >
                      • Chandrashekara K A
                        ... HaHa. Nice try. While you are making attempts, do try to read the complete thread. Elders don t mean elderly. --chandra
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 28, 2010
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                          On 09/28/2010 06:26 PM, dheeraj.girdhar@... wrote:
                          > I continue to think religions are for elders.

                          When ur hairs fell down, teeth fell down,no energy to do anything, then think of religion........just like reading manual after like of car is gone.

                          HaHa. Nice try. While you are making attempts, do try to read the complete thread. Elders don't mean elderly.

                          --chandra
                        • Bhuvana Venkat
                          Organised religion has always been political and will continue to be. It tries to rule by fear/love of the laws of God rather than that of man, an attempt of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                            Organised religion has always been political and will continue to be. It tries to rule by fear/love of the laws of God rather than that of man, an attempt of people living in progressively larger and larger groups to find order. The innocence of childhood does not understand it and hope we as adults can understand all the ills of organised religion. I beleive in God, I don't beleive in religion, any religion. Guns, germs and steel explains how religion has been adopted in every community and how it has been used for political advancement.
                            regards
                            bhuvana

                            To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                            From: chandra.ka@...
                            Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:38:59 +0530
                            Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

                             
                            Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.

                            BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.

                            I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions under curricular headings like "Jainism".

                            Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.

                            I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?

                            This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were) and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.

                            I continue to think religions are for elders.

                            --chandra

                            On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:
                            Thank you Paula.

                            I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

                            I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

                            --chandra

                            On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
                             

                            I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

                            http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

                            Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

                            If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

                            Paula





                          • dheeraj.girdhar@Linde-LE.com
                            or can not we say that political people take benefit of religion and make it like that. I think, you do not beleive in any sect ( Hindu / buddhism / muslim all
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                              or can not we say that political people take benefit of religion and make it like that.

                              I think, you do not beleive in any sect ( Hindu / buddhism / muslim all can be better termed as sect).

                              Religion of everyone is service of God.







                              alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com wrote on 29/09/2010 17:20:59:

                              >  

                              >
                              > Organised religion has always been political and will continue to
                              > be. It tries to rule by fear/love of the laws of God rather than
                              > that of man, an attempt of people living in progressively larger and
                              > larger groups to find order. The innocence of childhood does not
                              > understand it and hope we as adults can understand all the ills of
                              > organised religion. I beleive in God, I don't beleive in religion,
                              > any religion. Guns, germs and steel explains how religion has been
                              > adopted in every community and how it has been used for political
                              advancement.
                              > regards
                              > bhuvana
                              > To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: chandra.ka@...
                              > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:38:59 +0530
                              > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog
                              >
                              >  

                              > Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.
                              >
                              > BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.
                              >
                              > I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching
                              religions
                              > under curricular headings like "Jainism".
                              >
                              > Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral
                              > education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the
                              > story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and
                              > leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont
                              be able
                              > to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.
                              >
                              > I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from,
                              > say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year
                              > old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our
                              > own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and
                              > how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not
                              > Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?
                              >
                              > This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were)
                              > and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a
                              > comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the
                              > neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year
                              old.
                              >
                              > I continue to think religions are for elders.
                              >
                              > --chandra
                              >
                              > On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:

                              > Thank you Paula.
                              >
                              > I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism
                              > parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like
                              > it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity,
                              > detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations
                              > worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much
                              > for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the
                              > number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms
                              like that.
                              >
                              > I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.
                              >
                              > --chandra
                              >
                              > On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:

                              >  
                              > I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.
                              >
                              > http://web.mac.
                              > com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html
                              >
                              > Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.
                              >
                              > If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a
                              comment.
                              >
                              > Paula
                              >

                              >
                              >

                              >
                            • dheeraj.girdhar@Linde-LE.com
                              ... Still, the basic terms can (or should) be explained.You may not go in details, otherwise how they will put these in practise
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                > I continue to think religions are for elders.

                                Still, the basic terms can (or should) be explained.You may not go in details, otherwise how they will put these in practise







                                alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com wrote on 28/09/2010 20:00:02:

                                >  

                                > On 09/28/2010 06:26 PM, dheeraj.girdhar@... wrote:
                                >
                                > > I continue to think religions are for elders.
                                >
                                > When ur hairs fell down, teeth fell down,no energy to do anything,
                                > then think of religion........just like reading manual after like
                                of
                                > car is gone.

                                >
                                > HaHa. Nice try. While you are making attempts, do try to read the
                                > complete thread. Elders don't mean elderly.
                                >
                                > --chandra

                                >
                              • Chandrashekara K A
                                You intrigue me. I think you continue to speak of moral education. I was talking about curricula requiring children to know about major religions at a rather
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                  You intrigue me. I think you continue to speak of moral education.

                                  I was talking about curricula requiring children to know about major religions at a rather young age.

                                  I don't think curricula expects children to follow all religions - it just wants the students to "know" them. And I don't think any parent wants their children to practice multiple religions and further, I suspect that many parents want their children to practice their(the parents') religion.

                                  So where does the issue of putting into practice arise?

                                  --chandra

                                  On 09/29/2010 05:36 PM, dheeraj.girdhar@... wrote:
                                  > I continue to think religions are for elders.

                                  Still, the basic terms can (or should) be explained.You may not go in details, otherwise how they will put these in practise







                                  alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com wrote on 28/09/2010 20:00:02:

                                  >  

                                  > On 09/28/2010 06:26 PM, dheeraj.girdhar@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I continue to think religions are for elders.
                                  >
                                  > When ur hairs fell down, teeth fell down,no energy to do anything,
                                  > then think of religion........just like reading manual after like of
                                  > car is gone.

                                  >
                                  > HaHa. Nice try. While you are making attempts, do try to read the
                                  > complete thread. Elders don't mean elderly.
                                  >
                                  > --chandra

                                  >

                                • Chandrashekara K A
                                  I agree with you. (Only, I believe very few things - God is NOT one of them). And I don t think curricula should involve such random references. Have you read
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                    I agree with you. (Only, I believe very few things - God is NOT one of them).

                                    And I don't think curricula should involve such random references.

                                    Have you read Daniel Dennet?(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett). His "Breaking the spell" is a very interesting book on the virulent nature of organized religions.

                                    --chandra

                                    On 09/29/2010 05:20 PM, Bhuvana Venkat wrote:
                                     


                                    Organised religion has always been political and will continue to be. It tries to rule by fear/love of the laws of God rather than that of man, an attempt of people living in progressively larger and larger groups to find order. The innocence of childhood does not understand it and hope we as adults can understand all the ills of organised religion. I beleive in God, I don't beleive in religion, any religion. Guns, germs and steel explains how religion has been adopted in every community and how it has been used for political advancement.
                                    regards
                                    bhuvana


                                    To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: chandra.ka@...
                                    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:38:59 +0530
                                    Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

                                     
                                    Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.

                                    BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.

                                    I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions under curricular headings like "Jainism".

                                    Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.

                                    I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?

                                    This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were) and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.

                                    I continue to think religions are for elders.

                                    --chandra

                                    On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:
                                    Thank you Paula.

                                    I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

                                    I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

                                    --chandra

                                    On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
                                     

                                    I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

                                    http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

                                    Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

                                    If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

                                    Paula






                                  • Bhuvana Venkat
                                    religion is personal. Organised religion on the other hand has rules, has places of worship, has everything that is no different from rules of the law and
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                      religion is personal. Organised religion on the other hand has rules, has places of worship, has everything that is no different from rules of the law and government.
                                      regards
                                      bhuvana
                                       

                                      To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: dheeraj.girdhar@...
                                      Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:35:35 +0530
                                      Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

                                       

                                      or can not we say that political people take benefit of religion and make it like that.

                                      I think, you do not beleive in any sect ( Hindu / buddhism / muslim all can be better termed as sect).

                                      Religion of everyone is service of God.







                                      alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com wrote on 29/09/2010 17:20:59:

                                      >  

                                      >
                                      > Organised religion has always been political and will continue to
                                      > be. It tries to rule by fear/love of the laws of God rather than
                                      > that of man, an attempt of people living in progressively larger and
                                      > larger groups to find order. The innocence of childhood does not
                                      > understand it and hope we as adults can understand all the ills of
                                      > organised religion. I beleive in God, I don't beleive in religion,
                                      > any religion. Guns, germs and steel explains how religion has been
                                      > adopted in every community and how it has been used for political advancement.
                                      > regards
                                      > bhuvana
                                      > To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: chandra.ka@...
                                      > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:38:59 +0530
                                      > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog
                                      >
                                      >  

                                      > Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.
                                      >
                                      > BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.
                                      >
                                      > I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions
                                      > under curricular headings like "Jainism".
                                      >
                                      > Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral
                                      > education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the
                                      > story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and
                                      > leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able
                                      > to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.
                                      >
                                      > I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from,
                                      > say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year
                                      > old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our
                                      > own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and
                                      > how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not
                                      > Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a large extent?
                                      >
                                      > This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were)
                                      > and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a
                                      > comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the
                                      > neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.
                                      >
                                      > I continue to think religions are for elders.
                                      >
                                      > --chandra
                                      >
                                      > On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:

                                      > Thank you Paula.
                                      >
                                      > I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism
                                      > parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like
                                      > it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity,
                                      > detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations
                                      > worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much
                                      > for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the
                                      > number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.
                                      >
                                      > I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.
                                      >
                                      > --chandra
                                      >
                                      > On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:

                                      >  
                                      > I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.
                                      >
                                      > http://web.mac.
                                      > com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html
                                      >
                                      > Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.
                                      >
                                      > If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.
                                      >
                                      > Paula
                                      >

                                      >
                                      >

                                      >
                                    • pushkarni panchamukhi
                                      Dear Mr. Chandra,   Most of us failed to get your point probably because the terms moral education and religions under curricular heads such as Jainism are
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                        Dear Mr. Chandra,
                                         
                                        Most of us failed to get your point probably because the terms moral education and religions under curricular heads such as Jainism are conflated. Is'nt moral education also a part of Jainism or any other religion? Of course you are perfectly right when you say moral education is best taught by leading a moral life. But the so called jargons used in or under the subject of religion such as detachment, austerity, humility are all parts of moral education as well.
                                         
                                        "I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own)"
                                         
                                        Religion is a dsicpline of worship where one entity is the worshiper and another the worshipable. Religion then becomes that system which aims to please the object of worship; a discipline which, at a minimum, defines the relationship between the worshiper and the worshiped. Based on this definition, we see that religion is something that can certainly vary, for the object of worship can differ from person to person. Since everyone has different entities they deem as worshipable, they will have different conclusions as to what the aim of life is and how one should go about attaining it.
                                        When the objects of worship switch from matter to spirit, the discipline can be classified as a religion in the common sense of the word. Even in the arena of spirituality, there are varying recommendations, processes, sins, and ultimate conclusions. The Vedas tell us that these religious systems can be thought of as different grades in an educational establishment. The teachers of these systems claim to have received their knowledge from Divine authority. Taking their claims at face value, we see that the teachers, who manifest as different prophets, are deemed to have a first class understanding of the principles of spirituality. Yet there are still differences in the teachings, and the Vedas tell us that these differences are due to the time and circumstance. Depending on the specific time period, people at large may not be ready for the highest truths of spirituality. Therefore the chosen one, or representative of God at the time, decides to focus on
                                        a specific issue. Some choose to focus on the eradication of animal violence, while others persuade society to look to God as the ultimate order supplier instead of a government entity. The point to all of this is that even though one teacher may be teaching a second grade class, while another teaches twelfth grade, the ultimate object of knowledge is still the same. The twelfth graders have no reason to look down upon the second graders, because the younger students are simply working their way up towards the higher platform.
                                         
                                        Thus there are different religions with different practices. There is'nt much sense in plucking out the eye along with the cataract. So religion in itself is not the villain but the people who misuse it are. Can all this not be explained to children? Because people lose their moral values they in turn misuse religion as well. Children can be taught at their level to view various religions in proper perspective. ANd then of course the child as he/she grows up can introspect/choose/decide/. In order to sound convincing of course we should be convinced!

                                        The deciding point could come later (that age will surely vary)but information can be given earlier.

                                        Regards
                                        Pushkarni

                                        --- On Tue, 9/28/10, Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...> wrote:


                                        From: Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog
                                        To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 5:38 PM


                                         



                                        Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.

                                        BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.

                                        I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions under curricular headings like "Jainism".

                                        Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.

                                        I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a
                                        large extent?

                                        This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were) and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.

                                        I continue to think religions are for elders.

                                        --chandra

                                        On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:
                                        Thank you Paula.

                                        I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

                                        I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

                                        --chandra

                                        On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
                                         

                                        I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

                                        http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

                                        Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

                                        If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

                                        Paula
                                      • Shilpa Shet
                                        I agree with what Yugandhar says. I think our children need to understand the magic in life. I remember reading these stories in awe as a kid. Even today I
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                          I agree with what Yugandhar says. I think our children need to understand the "magic" in life. I remember reading these stories in awe as a kid. Even today I believe in miracles.
                                           
                                          As a child, I was never taught religion, morals yes. We followed all religious ceremonies and rituals. However, we all had the freedom to not do something we did not believe or agree to.
                                           
                                          We learned about faith though. We saw it in our parents and we developed our own faith system.
                                           
                                          So, yes, I do not teach my son religion, but yes I do talk to him about Ganpati, Rama, these are more immediate to him and also about Moses, Jesus whenever there is something that he sees or watches...
                                           
                                          My two bits :)
                                           
                                          Regards,
                                          Shilpa

                                        • Chandrashekara K A
                                          I believe Moral Education to be Its best to do X . Scholastic Study of a Religion is Religion Y says its best to do X . There is a very clear distinction
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                            I believe Moral Education to be "Its best to do X". Scholastic Study of a Religion is "Religion Y says its best to do X". There is a very clear distinction between the two.  (Or course in many contexts there is an implicit "we say" prefixed to all moral education, but that's a separate topic altogether).

                                            Textbooks describing Jainism (please note that I repeatedly refer to this one religion and not to others only to work with a stable set of examples and not to pick against any particular religion) mainly work with the latter model of description.

                                            Your definitions of religion are all fine - I have no problems with them (at least, not while within *this* debate). You have your definitions and I have mine.

                                            But that is neither here nor there. My problem is with curricula including "Religion Y says its best to do X" kind of stuff to relatively young children who may not have the wherewithal to work with abstract notions such as axioms(tenets) and jargon (good example would be some simple everyday term like Karma which has very different meanings depending on the school of philosophical thought (Jaina/Bauddha/Mimamsa/etc-etc) and its a disservice to learning to think of one meaning when working with a philosophical system which gives a different meaning to it).

                                            After all, there is a good reason children are not taught algebra/anything else based on abstractions at a young age - mainly they don't really understand it. They may understand the "manipulations" but not the "intent"  (though many systems keep attempting it and its interesting to note accomplished mathematicians and physicists always rant and rave about such attempts (For instance, you can read Feynman's thoughts on the topic in "Surely you are joking Mr Feynman")).

                                            --chandra

                                            On 09/30/2010 09:59 AM, pushkarni panchamukhi wrote:
                                             

                                            Dear Mr. Chandra,
                                             
                                            Most of us failed to get your point probably because the terms moral education and religions under curricular heads such as Jainism are conflated. Is'nt moral education also a part of Jainism or any other religion? Of course you are perfectly right when you say moral education is best taught by leading a moral life. But the so called jargons used in or under the subject of religion such as detachment, austerity, humility are all parts of moral education as well.
                                             
                                            "I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own)"
                                             
                                            Religion is a dsicpline of worship where one entity is the worshiper and another the worshipable. Religion then becomes that system which aims to please the object of worship; a discipline which, at a minimum, defines the relationship between the worshiper and the worshiped. Based on this definition, we see that religion is something that can certainly vary, for the object of worship can differ from person to person. Since everyone has different entities they deem as worshipable, they will have different conclusions as to what the aim of life is and how one should go about attaining it.
                                            When the objects of worship switch from matter to spirit, the discipline can be classified as a religion in the common sense of the word. Even in the arena of spirituality, there are varying recommendations, processes, sins, and ultimate conclusions. The Vedas tell us that these religious systems can be thought of as different grades in an educational establishment. The teachers of these systems claim to have received their knowledge from Divine authority. Taking their claims at face value, we see that the teachers, who manifest as different prophets, are deemed to have a first class understanding of the principles of spirituality. Yet there are still differences in the teachings, and the Vedas tell us that these differences are due to the time and circumstance. Depending on the specific time period, people at large may not be ready for the highest truths of spirituality. Therefore the chosen one, or representative of God at the time, decides to focus on
                                            a specific issue. Some choose to focus on the eradication of animal violence, while others persuade society to look to God as the ultimate order supplier instead of a government entity. The point to all of this is that even though one teacher may be teaching a second grade class, while another teaches twelfth grade, the ultimate object of knowledge is still the same. The twelfth graders have no reason to look down upon the second graders, because the younger students are simply working their way up towards the higher platform.
                                             
                                            Thus there are different religions with different practices. There is'nt much sense in plucking out the eye along with the cataract. So religion in itself is not the villain but the people who misuse it are. Can all this not be explained to children? Because people lose their moral values they in turn misuse religion as well. Children can be taught at their level to view various religions in proper perspective. ANd then of course the child as he/she grows up can introspect/choose/decide/. In order to sound convincing of course we should be convinced!

                                            The deciding point could come later (that age will surely vary)but information can be given earlier.

                                            Regards
                                            Pushkarni

                                            --- On Tue, 9/28/10, Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...> wrote:

                                            From: Chandrashekara K A <chandra.ka@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog
                                            To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 5:38 PM

                                             

                                            Thanks all for time spent on composing replies to my Mail.

                                            BUT I am afraid my basic point went un-understood and hence, unaddressed.

                                            I think you are conflating "moral education" and teaching religions under curricular headings like "Jainism".

                                            Moral education is fine - taught through stories etc. Moral education is better taught by just living a moral life. When the story approach is taken the traits of religions become blurred and leans towards "good, bad and ugly". And soon the child wont be able to say why we are not Jains are Buddhists despite being good.

                                            I found it difficult to address Jainism and how it differs from, say, what we might practice at home (we are not Jains) to a 10 year old. (Same applies to any other mainstream religion, including our own). Continuing with Jainism: how would I explain Ahimsa etc and how it differs from Ahimsa we practice at home and how we are not Jains despite practicing Ahimsa to a
                                            large extent?

                                            This cannot be addressed unless the tenets (the axioms, as it were) and jargon of the religion under study are explained and a comparative study of other major contemporary religions of the neighborhood are attempted. This is all rather too much for a 10 year old.

                                            I continue to think religions are for elders.

                                            --chandra

                                            On 09/28/2010 07:26 AM, Chandrashekara K A wrote:
                                            Thank you Paula.

                                            I was recently helping my son (10.5) through Jainism and Buddhism parts of his curriculum (Karnataka State board) : and it seemed like it was a very difficult thing to explain terms like austerity, detachment, moksha to him and frankly, I don't think my explanations worked. I felt inclined to think that religions are a bit too much for someone who is 10 and that they need to be 12+ (or whatever the number would turn out to be) before they start understanding terms like that.

                                            I wonder how you are tackling those kinds of terms.

                                            --chandra

                                            On 09/27/2010 10:44 PM, irisversicolor wrote:
                                             

                                            I collected Buddhist educational resources Grade 1-4 on my blog.

                                            http://web.mac.com/kuitenbrouwer/Paula_Kuitenbrouwer/On_Buddhism/On_Buddhism.html

                                            Hope this helps students with their study of this world religion.

                                            If you have additional information, please add it to my blog via a comment.

                                            Paula


                                          • Ravi Ahuja
                                            Hi, I write this respond to Bhuvana.   You probably are referring to your own beliefs about religion, which further becomes a context for your spirituality  
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 29, 2010
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                                              Hi,
                                              I write this respond to Bhuvana.
                                               
                                              You probably are referring to your own beliefs about religion, which further becomes a context for your spirituality
                                               
                                              I am a Hindu, yet I do not believe in the rituals pertaining to the pooja, fasting, going to temples, adopting certain dietary habits etc (this is my own independent and yet personal belief about my religion) and it is this belief that forms the base for my spirituality.
                                               
                                              Other Hindus may not do so. This is relative in context of personal ideologies.
                                               
                                              Unfortunately this is where people in individual capacities make most of the fuss
                                               

                                              Religion can be spoken of at 2 levels

                                              Religion at the academic level pertains to accepting certain doctrines, ideologies,

                                               

                                              Religion at the administrative level pertains to using it as a tool, to bring about social movements - one of the methodology of using religion as a administrative tool is to bring about strict influence on ideologies by creating fear in the minds of those who follow it

                                               
                                              Politicians use it, primarily for ulterior motives, Spreading Violence takes away the attention from basic issues,  Gives enormous significance, that gives acknowledgement to being a political heavyweight, thus becoming capable of influencing the 3 nodal power centres of any nation - The Executive, The Legislative and The Judiciary. One would never find a politician or his son or daughter dying in religious violence
                                               
                                              A child, is not equipped to understand the distinctions between Religion, Morality and Spirituality

                                               

                                              It is only when he is told that he belongs to Religion ABC, which has a God / Gods / Leader referred to as XYZ, does he see himself in the context of that religion

                                               

                                              Having accepted his roots to be in Religion ABC, he sees and evaluates every other religion with his religion ABC and thereon starts his own journey to know, validate and accept his spirituality

                                               

                                              All values of life being same - The thin line of difference between Morality and Spirituality is that Morality does not necessarily encompass the element of acknowledging a Creator . God or even a  Religion for that matter.

                                               

                                              We do not have to belong to a particular religion to practise honesty, sincerity and live in line with our integrity 

                                               

                                              Ahimsa (Non Violence) in its true sense is a moral value;  but if someones says, that because he is a Jain, he must reflect the value of Ahimsa in his life, then he is creating a condition of Jainism to practise Ahimsa... Which then becomes a practise of Jainism

                                               

                                              What we teach our children, stems more from what we believe is true about Religion, Spirituality and Morality

                                               

                                              Best Regards,

                                              Ravi

                                               


                                            • Bhuvana Venkat
                                              I agree. I don t think of Hinduism as a religion as that of confucianism but a cumulation of thoughts by so many philosophers spanning so many different
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 30, 2010
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                                                I agree.
                                                I don't think of Hinduism as a religion as that of confucianism but a cumulation of thoughts by so many philosophers spanning so many different philosophies at so many different times and so many different beliefs assimilated unto itself with almost no clear rules. You have pure vegetarians to cannibals all who beleive they are Hindus by some classification! Until recently, I have never heard of the concept of conversion or re-conversion to Hinduism. But yes there are Gods, rites and rituals. 
                                                And in general, it did help in governance, it has the clergy who are beleived to be the authority and the middlemen between man and God. This is quite common in all religions whose nature has been governance. In all organised systems there are the kings and priests who are highest in the social ladder. Sometimes they are the same as in the case of Incas or the Pharoahs but the idea behind organisation of religion has always been political. This is even more obvious now as in the case of the crusades or Jihadis.
                                                Guns, germs and steel by Jared Diamond was the book I was referring to.. It is really worth reading - a scientific analysis of human history.
                                                 regards
                                                bhuvana

                                                To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: rgahujamp@...
                                                Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:45:09 +0530
                                                Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Buddhism-educational resources on my blog

                                                 
                                                Hi,
                                                I write this respond to Bhuvana.
                                                 
                                                You probably are referring to your own beliefs about religion, which further becomes a context for your spirituality
                                                 
                                                I am a Hindu, yet I do not believe in the rituals pertaining to the pooja, fasting, going to temples, adopting certain dietary habits etc (this is my own independent and yet personal belief about my religion) and it is this belief that forms the base for my spirituality.
                                                 
                                                Other Hindus may not do so. This is relative in context of personal ideologies.
                                                 
                                                Unfortunately this is where people in individual capacities make most of the fuss
                                                 

                                                Religion can be spoken of at 2 levels

                                                Religion at the academic level pertains to accepting certain doctrines, ideologies,

                                                 

                                                Religion at the administrative level pertains to using it as a tool, to bring about social movements - one of the methodology of using religion as a administrative tool is to bring about strict influence on ideologies by creating fear in the minds of those who follow it

                                                 
                                                Politicians use it, primarily for ulterior motives, Spreading Violence takes away the attention from basic issues,  Gives enormous significance, that gives acknowledgement to being a political heavyweight, thus becoming capable of influencing the 3 nodal power centres of any nation - The Executive, The Legislative and The Judiciary. One would never find a politician or his son or daughter dying in religious violence
                                                 
                                                A child, is not equipped to understand the distinctions between Religion, Morality and Spirituality

                                                 

                                                It is only when he is told that he belongs to Religion ABC, which has a God / Gods / Leader referred to as XYZ, does he see himself in the context of that religion

                                                 

                                                Having accepted his roots to be in Religion ABC, he sees and evaluates every other religion with his religion ABC and thereon starts his own journey to know, validate and accept his spirituality

                                                 

                                                All values of life being same - The thin line of difference between Morality and Spirituality is that Morality does not necessarily encompass the element of acknowledging a Creator . God or even a  Religion for that matter.

                                                 

                                                We do not have to belong to a particular religion to practise honesty, sincerity and live in line with our integrity 

                                                 

                                                Ahimsa (Non Violence) in its true sense is a moral value;  but if someones says, that because he is a Jain, he must reflect the value of Ahimsa in his life, then he is creating a condition of Jainism to practise Ahimsa... Which then becomes a practise of Jainism

                                                 

                                                What we teach our children, stems more from what we believe is true about Religion, Spirituality and Morality

                                                 

                                                Best Regards,

                                                Ravi

                                                 



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