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RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

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  • Bhuvana Venkat
    I was thinking a lot about the topic. Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 2, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      I was thinking a lot about the topic.
      Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is himself transformed into the Godly nature.
      But at the same time, as is put very well in the end of the article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new. Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist, Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the zoo right?
      As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding, it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a point where things can break even?
      regards
      Bhuvana



      To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
      CC: bhuva78@...
      From: dheeraj.girdhar@...
      Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
      Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters



      > You think fear of God makes us responsible?

      In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may not be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids are mostly side -tracked.

      Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing our actions).






      alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:

      > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
      > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
      > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab as
      > in traditional text book learning.
      > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
      > opposite way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us independent
      > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of God
      > makes us responsible?
      > regards
      > bhuvana
      >
      >
      > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
      > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
      > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
      > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
      >

      >
      > Dear all,
      >
      > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to understand.
      >
      > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any sane
      > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
      > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
      > that someone might have designed it.
      >
      > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth and
      > other other planets) has no creator.
      >
      > Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to become
      > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no creator /
      > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
      > responsible to our actions.
      >
      > Hope this makes some sense.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Dheeraj Girdhar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      >
      > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
      > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

      > 23/01/09 15:51
      >
      > Please respond to
      > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

      >
      >

      >
      > To

      >
      > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>

      >
      > cc

      >
      > Subject

      >
      > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution seems
      > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
      > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to take
      > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
      > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case God.
      > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole truth
      > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
      > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
      > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the chance to
      > explore and debate possibilities which would make a class more
      > vibrant and thought provoking. After all, it is possible that none
      > of the known explanations are true.
      > regards
      > bhuvana
      >
      >
      >
      > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
      > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
      > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
      > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
      >
      >
      >
      > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama says "I
      > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
      > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
      > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
      > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of evolution
      > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the natural
      > created world around them, because now most kids assume that the
      > natural world and even their own marvelously designed bodies have
      > come into existence without a designer..
      > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
      > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of their
      > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue the species?
      > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise that
      > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help our
      > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully we
      > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
      >  
      > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
      >  
      > Is evolution ‘scientific’?
      >  
      > Enjoy the weekend,
      > S P Mathew
      >  
      > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
      > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
      > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
      > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
      >
      > 
      > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read this...
      >  
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
      > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi All,
      > Very forthright and touching
      > M.G.Mohan
      >

      >
      >
      >
      > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My Heart"
      > [image removed]
      > 'What I Want for You — and Every Child in America'
      > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th President.
      > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who is
      > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants
      > for his children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
      > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack Obama to
      > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
      > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
      > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get through it
      > without tearing up a little.
      > Letter goes like this,
      > [image removed]
      > Dear Malia and Sasha,
      > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on the
      > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs, eating
      > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have let
      > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for you
      > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new puppy,
      > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
      > much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell you
      > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this journey.
      > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about how
      > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things
      > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
      > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill my
      > heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for myself
      > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest joy
      > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my own
      > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you
      > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In the
      > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want
      > for you and for every child in this nation.
      > I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
      > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
      > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have the
      > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
      > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
      > benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with their
      > own kids and retire with dignity.

      > [image removed]
      > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
      > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll live to
      > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and make
      > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own human
      > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region, gender
      > and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.
      > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and other
      > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I want
      > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try our
      > best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that we
      > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe. And I
      > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
      > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege of
      > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
      > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I was
      > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
      > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched for
      > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
      > centuries ago should mean something.
      > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
      > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
      > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us. It's a
      > charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
      > generation to what we know America should be...

      > [image removed]
      > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of you
      > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and working
      > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have an
      > obligation to give something back to this country that has given our
      > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because you
      > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you hitch
      > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will realize
      > your true potential.
      > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with no
      > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to
      > grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that
      > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and
      > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken
      > our family on this great adventure.
      > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
      > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise, grace,
      > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the White House.

      > Love,
      > Dad
      >

      >
      >
      >  
      >  

      >
      >
      > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
      > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we bring
      > it to your fingertips. Check it out!

      >

      >
      > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch the
      > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!

      >


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    • S P Mathew
      Hi, There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God, starting from President Obama s letter to his kids. This shows us that we are created with a
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 2, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi,
        There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God, starting from President Obama's letter to his kids. This shows us that we are created with a desire to know our Creator.
        It is absurd to a logical person to think that 'something' could have been created out of nothing [eg: Big Bang] or that nothing could have created something [eg: atheists and evolutionists].  
        And it is not faith in 'god' that makes a person 'moral'. Even demons believe in God!
        We humans have been turning away from God and doing our own thing since Adam, and that shows a lack of faith in God [like does god really know what is best for me?]. It is only when we are born again in the spirit of God and become a new creation that we can be truly 'moral' from within, loving to obey the law and God from our own hearts. There are clear steps to that which anyone can search and find out for themselves.
        Let us not talk, but love as God loves. His love is beyond our wildest imagination.
        Cheers,
        Mathew

         


        From: Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@...>
        To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, 2 February, 2009 4:10:30 PM
        Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

        I was thinking a lot about the topic.
        Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is himself transformed into the Godly nature.
        But at the same time, as is put very well in the end of the article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new. Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist, Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the zoo right?
        As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding, it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a point where things can break even?
        regards
        Bhuvana



        To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
        CC: bhuva78@hotmail. com
        From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
        Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
        Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters



        > You think fear of God makes us responsible?

        In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may not be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids are mostly side -tracked.

        Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing our actions).






        alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:

        > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
        > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
        > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab as
        > in traditional text book learning.
        > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
        > opposite
        way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us independent
        > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of God
        > makes us responsible?
        > regards
        > bhuvana
        >
        >
        > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
        > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
        > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
        > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
        >

        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to understand.
        >
        > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any sane
        > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
        > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
        > that someone might have designed it.
        >
        > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth and
        > other other
        planets) has no creator.
        >
        > Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to become
        > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no creator /
        > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
        > responsible to our actions.
        >
        > Hope this makes some sense.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Dheeraj Girdhar
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        >
        > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
        > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

        > 23/01/09 15:51
        >
        > Please respond to
        > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

        >
        >

        >
        > To

        >
        > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>

        >
        > cc

        >
        > Subject

        >
        > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution seems
        > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
        > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to take
        > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
        > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case God.
        > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole truth
        > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
        > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
        > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the chance to
        > explore and debate possibilities which
        would make a class more
        > vibrant and thought provoking. After all, it is possible that none
        > of the known explanations are true.
        > regards
        > bhuvana
        >
        >
        >
        > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
        > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
        > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
        > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
        >
        >
        >
        > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama says "I
        > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
        > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
        > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
        > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of evolution
        > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the natural
        > created world around them, because now most kids assume that the
        > natural world
        and even their own marvelously designed bodies have
        > come into existence without a designer..
        > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
        > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of their
        > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue the species?
        > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise that
        > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help our
        > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully we
        > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
        >  
        > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
        >  
        > Is evolution ‘scientific’?
        >  
        > Enjoy the weekend,
        > S P Mathew
        >  
        > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
        > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@
        yahoogroups. com>
        > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
        > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
        >
        > 
        > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read this...
        >  
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
        > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi All,
        > Very forthright and touching
        > M.G.Mohan
        >

        >
        >
        >
        > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My Heart"
        > [image removed]
        > 'What I Want for You — and Every Child in America'
        > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th President.
        > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who is
        > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants
        > for his
        children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
        > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack Obama to
        > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
        > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
        > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get through it
        > without tearing up a little.
        > Letter goes like this,
        > [image removed]
        > Dear Malia and Sasha,
        > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on the
        > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs, eating
        > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have let
        > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for you
        > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new puppy,
        > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
        > much I've missed these past two
        years, and today I want to tell you
        > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this journey.
        > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about how
        > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things
        > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
        > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill my
        > heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for myself
        > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest joy
        > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my own
        > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you
        > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In the
        > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want
        > for you and for every child in this nation.
        > I want all our children to go to
        schools worthy of their potential-
        > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
        > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have the
        > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
        > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
        > benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with their
        > own kids and retire with dignity.

        > [image removed]
        > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
        > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll live to
        > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and make
        > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own human
        > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region, gender
        > and religion that keep
        us from seeing the best in each other.
        > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and other
        > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I want
        > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try our
        > best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that we
        > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe. And I
        > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
        > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege of
        > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
        > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I was
        > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
        > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched for
        > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
        > centuries ago should mean
        something.
        > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
        > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
        > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us. It's a
        > charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
        > generation to what we know America should be...

        > [image removed]
        > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of you
        > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and working
        > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have an
        > obligation to give something back to this country that has given our
        > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because you
        > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you hitch
        > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you
        will realize
        > your true potential.
        > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with no
        > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to
        > grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that
        > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and
        > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken
        > our family on this great adventure.
        > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
        > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise, grace,
        > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the White House.

        > Love,
        > Dad
        >

        >
        >
        >  
        >  

        >
        >
        > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them
        now.
        > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we bring
        > it to your fingertips. Check it out!

        >

        >
        > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch the
        > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!

        >


        Discover your phone style WIN a Windows Mobile phone. Your style! Try it now!


        Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here.
      • manju3261
        Hi, I agree with the opinion expressed by avygravy earlier in this thread. Also, I wonder if this forum is the right one for discusing Creationism vs.
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 2, 2009
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          Hi,

          I agree with the opinion expressed by avygravy earlier in this
          thread.

          Also, I wonder if this forum is the right one for discusing
          Creationism vs. Evolution? There are a lot of phrases I do not
          really grasp in the preceding message, like:

          "doing your own thing"
          "born again in the spirit of god"
          "loving to obey the law"

          Which law, for God's sake?

          Let us now go on to debate socialism vs capitalism, globalisation,
          abortion vs pro-life, deeper drilling vs renewable energy, Neo-
          conservatism vs everything else, and other more interesting topics,
          if we have really nothing to discuss about alternative education!

          Also let us not forget the Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrors of
          slavery, and the Holocaust which also invoked the name of the same
          loving Creator.

          I for one do not wish to discuss religious topics on this forum.
          Please start your own forum if you wish to preach.

          Wish the forum moderators would cull introduction of these topics.

          Sorry to say, sick and fed up,
          manju

          --- In alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com, S P Mathew <ashokhosp@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          > There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God,
          starting from President Obama's letter to his kids. This shows us
          that we are created with a desire to know our Creator.
          > It is absurd to a logical person to think that 'something' could
          have been created out of nothing [eg: Big Bang] or that nothing
          could have created something [eg: atheists and evolutionists].  
          > And it is not faith in 'god' that makes a person 'moral'.. Even
          demons believe in God!
          > We humans have been turning away from God and doing our own thing
          since Adam, and that shows a lack of faith in God [like does god
          really know what is best for me?]. It is only when we are born again
          in the spirit of God and become a new creation that we can be
          truly 'moral' from within, loving to obey the law and God from our
          own hearts. There are clear steps to that which anyone can search
          and find out for themselves.
          > Let us not talk, but love as God loves. His love is beyond our
          wildest imagination.
          > Cheers,
          > Mathew
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@...>
          > To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, 2 February, 2009 4:10:30 PM
          > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          >
          >
          > I was thinking a lot about the topic.
          > Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the
          abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in
          our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and
          churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push
          and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or
          bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be
          quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the
          other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish
          inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and
          kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by
          Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the
          concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is
          himself transformed into the Godly nature.
          > But at the same time, as is put very well in the end of the
          article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should
          not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize
          political power and govern in the way that they find most
          advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy
          existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the
          ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the
          Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new.
          Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist,
          Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a
          baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being
          killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can
          bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone
          area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you
          choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people
          > die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper
          asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the
          zoo right?
          > As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is
          inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding,
          it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a
          point where things can break even?
          > regards
          > Bhuvana
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
          > CC: bhuva78@hotmail. com
          > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
          > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
          > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > You think fear of God makes us responsible?
          >
          > In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may not
          be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids
          are mostly side -tracked.
          >
          > Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller
          makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing
          our actions).
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:
          >
          > > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
          > > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
          > > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab
          as
          > > in traditional text book learning.
          > > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
          > > opposite way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us
          independent
          > > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of
          God
          > > makes us responsible?
          > > regards
          > > bhuvana
          > >
          > >
          > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
          > > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
          > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
          > > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > Dear all,
          > >
          > > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to
          understand.
          > >
          > > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any
          sane
          > > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
          > > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
          > > that someone might have designed it.
          > >
          > > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth
          and
          > > other other planets) has no creator.
          > >
          > > Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to
          become
          > > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no
          creator /
          > > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
          > > responsible to our actions.
          > >
          > > Hope this makes some sense.
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > > Dheeraj Girdhar
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
          > > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
          > > 23/01/09 15:51
          > >
          > > Please respond to
          > > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
          > >
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > To
          > >
          > > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
          > >
          > > cc
          > >
          > > Subject
          > >
          > > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution
          seems
          > > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
          > > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to
          take
          > > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
          > > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case
          God.
          > > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole
          truth
          > > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
          > > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
          > > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the
          chance to
          > > explore and debate possibilities which would make a class more
          > > vibrant and thought provoking. After all, it is possible that
          none
          > > of the known explanations are true.
          > > regards
          > > bhuvana
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
          > > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
          > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
          > > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama
          says "I
          > > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
          > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
          > > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
          > > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of
          evolution
          > > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the
          natural
          > > created world around them, because now most kids assume that the
          > > natural world and even their own marvelously designed bodies
          have
          > > come into existence without a designer..
          > > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
          > > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of
          their
          > > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue
          the species?
          > > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise
          that
          > > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help
          our
          > > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully
          we
          > > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
          > >  
          > > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
          > >  
          > > Is evolution ‘scientific’?
          > >  
          > > Enjoy the weekend,
          > > S P Mathew
          > >  
          > > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
          > > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
          > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
          > >
          > > 
          > > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read
          this...
          > >  
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
          > > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi All,
          > > Very forthright and touching
          > > M.G.Mohan
          > >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My Heart"
          > > [image removed]
          > > 'What I Want for You â€" and Every Child in America'
          > > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th
          President.
          > > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who
          is
          > > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he
          wants
          > > for his children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
          > > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack
          Obama to
          > > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
          > > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
          > > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get
          through it
          > > without tearing up a little..
          > > Letter goes like this,
          > > [image removed]
          > > Dear Malia and Sasha,
          > > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on
          the
          > > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs,
          eating
          > > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have
          let
          > > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for
          you
          > > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new
          puppy,
          > > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
          > > much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell
          you
          > > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this
          journey.
          > > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about
          how
          > > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the
          things
          > > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
          > > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill
          my
          > > heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for
          myself
          > > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest
          joy
          > > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my
          own
          > > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that
          you
          > > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In
          the
          > > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I
          want
          > > for you and for every child in this nation.
          > > I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their
          potential-
          > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
          > > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have
          the
          > > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
          > > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
          > > benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with
          their
          > > own kids and retire with dignity.
          > > [image removed]
          > > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
          > > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll
          live to
          > > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and
          make
          > > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own
          human
          > > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region,
          gender
          > > and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.
          > > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and
          other
          > > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I
          want
          > > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try
          our
          > > best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that
          we
          > > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe.
          And I
          > > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
          > > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege
          of
          > > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
          > > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I
          was
          > > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
          > > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched
          for
          > > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
          > > centuries ago should mean something.
          > > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
          > > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
          > > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us.
          It's a
          > > charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
          > > generation to what we know America should be...
          > > [image removed]
          > > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of
          you
          > > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and
          working
          > > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have
          an
          > > obligation to give something back to this country that has given
          our
          > > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because
          you
          > > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you
          hitch
          > > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will
          realize
          > > your true potential.
          > > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with
          no
          > > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and
          to
          > > grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build
          that
          > > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn
          and
          > > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've
          taken
          > > our family on this great adventure.
          > > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
          > > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise,
          grace,
          > > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the
          White House.
          > > Love,
          > > Dad
          > >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > >  
          > >
          > >
          > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
          > > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we
          bring
          > > it to your fingertips. Check it out!
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch
          the
          > > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!
          > >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Discover your phone style WIN a Windows Mobile phone. Your style!
          Try it now!
          >
          >
          > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to
          http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
          >
        • Bhuvana Venkat
          Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion, the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion, the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the universe since that instant.
            The Big Bang does not suggest that the universe was created from nothing, that is illogical.
            Check out the Timeline of the Big Bang
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

             
            The origin of life is a necessary precursor for biological evolution, but understanding that evolution occurred once organisms appeared and investigating how this happens does not depend on understanding exactly how life began. The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions, but it is unclear how this occurred. Not much is certain about the earliest developments in life, the structure of the first living things, or the identity and nature of any last universal common ancestor or ancestral gene pool. Consequently, there is no scientific consensus on how life began, but proposals include self-replicating molecules such as RNA, and the assembly of simple cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution
             
            Frankly, the idea of God creating and giving life ends thought and to me boring since there is nothing to find out. It is more interesting and thought provoking to me to follow the questioning path. The world as it exists is beautiful however it was created and I appreciate it.
             
            I don't question your unconditional love but there seemed to be some misconception with respect to scientific understanding, hence the mail
            regards
            bhuvana




            To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
            From: ashokhosp@...
            Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:07:20 +0530
            Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters


            Hi,
            There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God, starting from President Obama's letter to his kids. This shows us that we are created with a desire to know our Creator.
            It is absurd to a logical person to think that 'something' could have been created out of nothing [eg: Big Bang] or that nothing could have created something [eg: atheists and evolutionists] .  
            And it is not faith in 'god' that makes a person 'moral'. Even demons believe in God!
            We humans have been turning away from God and doing our own thing since Adam, and that shows a lack of faith in God [like does god really know what is best for me?]. It is only when we are born again in the spirit of God and become a new creation that we can be truly 'moral' from within, loving to obey the law and God from our own hearts. There are clear steps to that which anyone can search and find out for themselves.
            Let us not talk, but love as God loves. His love is beyond our wildest imagination.
            Cheers,
            Mathew

             


            From: Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
            To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Monday, 2 February, 2009 4:10:30 PM
            Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

            I was thinking a lot about the topic.
            Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is himself transformed into the Godly nature.
            But at the same time, as is put very well in the end of the article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new. Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist, Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the zoo right?
            As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding, it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a point where things can break even?
            regards
            Bhuvana



            To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
            CC: bhuva78@hotmail. com
            From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
            Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
            Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters



            > You think fear of God makes us responsible?

            In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may not be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids are mostly side -tracked.

            Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing our actions).






            alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:

            > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
            > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
            > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab as
            > in traditional text book learning.
            > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
            > opposite way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us independent
            > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of God
            > makes us responsible?
            > regards
            > bhuvana
            >
            >
            > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
            > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
            > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
            > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
            >

            >
            > Dear all,
            >
            > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to understand.
            >
            > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any sane
            > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
            > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
            > that someone might have designed it.
            >
            > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth and
            > other other planets) has no creator.
            >
            > Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to become
            > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no creator /
            > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
            > responsible to our actions.
            >
            > Hope this makes some sense.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Dheeraj Girdhar
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            >
            > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
            > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

            > 23/01/09 15:51
            >
            > Please respond to
            > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com

            >
            >

            >
            > To

            >
            > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>

            >
            > cc

            >
            > Subject

            >
            > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters

            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution seems
            > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
            > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to take
            > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
            > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case God.
            > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole truth
            > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
            > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
            > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the chance to
            > explore and debate possibilities which would make a class more
            > vibrant and thought provoking. After all, it is possible that none
            > of the known explanations are true.
            > regards
            > bhuvana
            >
            >
            >
            > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
            > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
            > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
            > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
            >
            >
            >
            > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama says "I
            > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
            > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
            > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
            > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of evolution
            > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the natural
            > created world around them, because now most kids assume that the
            > natural world and even their own marvelously designed bodies have
            > come into existence without a designer..
            > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
            > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of their
            > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue the species?
            > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise that
            > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help our
            > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully we
            > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
            >  
            > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
            >  
            > Is evolution ‘scientific’?
            >  
            > Enjoy the weekend,
            > S P Mathew
            >  
            > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
            > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
            > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
            > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
            >
            > 
            > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read this...
            >  
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
            > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi All,
            > Very forthright and touching
            > M.G.Mohan
            >

            >
            >
            >
            > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My Heart"
            > [image removed]
            > 'What I Want for You — and Every Child in America'
            > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th President.
            > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who is
            > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants
            > for his children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
            > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack Obama to
            > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
            > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
            > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get through it
            > without tearing up a little.
            > Letter goes like this,
            > [image removed]
            > Dear Malia and Sasha,
            > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on the
            > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs, eating
            > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have let
            > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for you
            > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new puppy,
            > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
            > much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell you
            > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this journey.
            > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about how
            > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things
            > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
            > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill my
            > heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for myself
            > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest joy
            > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my own
            > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you
            > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In the
            > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want
            > for you and for every child in this nation.
            > I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
            > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
            > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have the
            > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
            > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
            > benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with their
            > own kids and retire with dignity.

            > [image removed]
            > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
            > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll live to
            > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and make
            > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own human
            > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region, gender
            > and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.
            > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and other
            > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I want
            > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try our
            > best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that we
            > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe. And I
            > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
            > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege of
            > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
            > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I was
            > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
            > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched for
            > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
            > centuries ago should mean something.
            > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
            > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
            > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us. It's a
            > charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
            > generation to what we know America should be...

            > [image removed]
            > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of you
            > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and working
            > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have an
            > obligation to give something back to this country that has given our
            > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because you
            > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you hitch
            > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will realize
            > your true potential.
            > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with no
            > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to
            > grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that
            > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and
            > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken
            > our family on this great adventure.
            > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
            > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise, grace,
            > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the White House.

            > Love,
            > Dad
            >

            >
            >
            >  
            >  

            >
            >
            > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
            > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we bring
            > it to your fingertips. Check it out!

            >

            >
            > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch the
            > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!

            >


            Discover your phone style WIN a Windows Mobile phone. Your style! Try it now!


            Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here.




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          • S P Mathew
            A very sad and mis informed response to serious discussion here. All education starts with basic assumptions. Thats what we are debating here. If you don t
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 3, 2009
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              A very sad and mis informed response to serious discussion here. All education starts with basic assumptions. Thats what we are debating here. If you don't understand any terms, dear Manju, use Google or any search tool. I am ofcourse assuming you know how to.
               
              And for your info, the holocaust was the result of Darwinian thinking and "survival of the fittest".  Slavery too partly because whites thought they are superior to the so called 'ape like' and 'primitive' blacks, whereas God created al humans equal irrespective of colour or race.
              Still if you think this debate is not abt education and your kids future behaviour, thats fine.
              Have a great day,
              Mathew

               


              From: manju3261 <manju3261@yahoo..com>
              To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, 3 February, 2009 10:11:03 AM
              Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's message

              Hi,

              I agree with the opinion expressed by avygravy earlier in this
              thread.

              Also, I wonder if this forum is the right one for discusing
              Creationism vs. Evolution? There are a lot of phrases I do not
              really grasp in the preceding message, like:

              "doing your own thing"
              "born again in the spirit of god"
              "loving to obey the law"

              Which law, for God's sake?

              Let us now go on to debate socialism vs capitalism, globalisation,
              abortion vs pro-life, deeper drilling vs renewable energy, Neo-
              conservatism vs everything else, and other more interesting topics,
              if we have really nothing to discuss about alternative education!

              Also let us not forget the Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrors of
              slavery, and the Holocaust which also invoked the name of the same
              loving Creator.

              I for one do not wish to discuss religious topics on this forum.
              Please start your own forum if you wish to preach.

              Wish the forum moderators would cull introduction of these topics.

              Sorry to say, sick and fed up,
              manju

              --- In alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com, S P Mathew <ashokhosp@. ..>
              wrote:

              >
              > Hi,
              > There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God,
              starting from President Obama's letter to his kids. This shows us
              that we are created with a desire to know our Creator.
              > It is absurd to a logical person to think that 'something' could
              have been created out of nothing [eg: Big Bang] or that nothing
              could have created something [eg: atheists and evolutionists] .  
              > And it is not faith in 'god' that makes a person 'moral'.. Even
              demons believe in God!
              > We humans have been turning away from God and doing our own
              thing
              since Adam, and that shows a lack of faith in God [like does god
              really know what is best for me?]. It is only when we are born again
              in the spirit of God and become a new creation that we can be
              truly 'moral' from within, loving to obey the law and God from our
              own hearts.. There are clear steps to that which anyone can search
              and find out for themselves.
              > Let us not talk, but love as God loves. His love is beyond our
              wildest imagination.
              > Cheers,
              > Mathew
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@... >
              > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Monday, 2 February, 2009 4:10:30 PM
              > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              >
              >
              > I was thinking a lot about the topic.
              > Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the
              abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in
              our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and
              churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push
              and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or
              bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be
              quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the
              other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish
              inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and
              kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by
              Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the
              concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is
              himself transformed into the Godly nature.
              > But at the
              same time, as is put very well in the end of the
              article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should
              not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize
              political power and govern in the way that they find most
              advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy
              existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the
              ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the
              Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new.
              Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist,
              Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a
              baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being
              killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can
              bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone
              area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you
              choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people
              > die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper
              asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the
              zoo right?
              > As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is
              inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding,
              it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a
              point where things can break even?
              > regards
              > Bhuvana
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              >
              > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > CC: bhuva78@hotmail. com
              > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
              > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
              > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > You think fear of God makes us responsible?
              >
              > In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may
              not
              be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids
              are mostly side -tracked.
              >
              > Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller
              makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing
              our actions).
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:
              >
              > > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
              > > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
              > > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab
              as
              > > in traditional text book learning.
              > > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
              > > opposite way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us
              independent
              > > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of
              God
              > >
              makes us responsible?
              > > regards
              > > bhuvana
              > >
              > >
              > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
              > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
              > > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Dear all,
              > >
              > > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to
              understand.
              > >
              > > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any
              sane
              > > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
              > > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
              > > that someone might have designed it.
              > >
              > > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth
              and
              > > other other planets) has no creator.
              > >
              > >
              Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to
              become
              > > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no
              creator /
              > > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
              > > responsible to our actions.
              > >
              > > Hope this makes some sense.
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > > Dheeraj Girdhar
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
              > > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > > 23/01/09 15:51
              > >
              > > Please respond to
              > > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > To
              > >
              > > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
              > >
              > > cc
              > >
              > > Subject
              > >
              > > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution
              seems
              > > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
              > > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to
              take
              > > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
              > > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case
              God.
              > > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole
              truth
              > > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
              > > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
              > > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the
              chance to
              > > explore and debate possibilities which would make a class more
              > > vibrant and thought
              provoking. After all, it is possible that
              none
              > > of the known explanations are true.
              > > regards
              > > bhuvana
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
              > > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
              > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
              > > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama
              says "I
              > > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
              > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
              > > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
              > > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of
              evolution
              > > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the
              natural
              > > created world around
              them, because now most kids assume that the
              > > natural world and even their own marvelously designed bodies
              have
              > > come into existence without a designer..
              > > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
              > > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of
              their
              > > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue
              the species?
              > > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise
              that
              > > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help
              our
              > > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully
              we
              > > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
              > >  
              > > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
              > >  
              > > Is
              evolution ‘scientific’?
              > >  
              > > Enjoy the weekend,
              > > S P Mathew
              > >  
              > > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
              > > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
              > > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
              > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
              > >
              > > 
              > > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read
              this...
              > >  
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
              > > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi All,
              > > Very forthright and touching
              > > M.G.Mohan
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My
              Heart"
              > > [image removed]
              > > 'What I Want for You â€" and Every Child in America'
              > > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th
              President.
              > > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who
              is
              > > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he
              wants
              > > for his children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
              > > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack
              Obama to
              > > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
              > > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
              > > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get
              through it
              > > without tearing up a little..
              > > Letter goes like this,
              > > [image removed]
              > > Dear Malia and Sasha,
              > > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last
              two years on
              the
              > > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs,
              eating
              > > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have
              let
              > > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for
              you
              > > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new
              puppy,
              > > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
              > > much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell
              you
              > > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this
              journey.
              > > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about
              how
              > > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the
              things
              > > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
              > > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill
              my
              > > heart
              and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for
              myself
              > > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest
              joy
              > > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my
              own
              > > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that
              you
              > > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In
              the
              > > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I
              want
              > > for you and for every child in this nation.
              > > I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their
              potential-
              > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
              > > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have
              the
              > > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
              > > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
              > >
              benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with
              their
              > > own kids and retire with dignity.
              > > [image removed]
              > > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
              > > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll
              live to
              > > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and
              make
              > > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own
              human
              > > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region,
              gender
              > > and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.
              > > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and
              other
              > > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I
              want
              > > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try
              our
              > > best to settle our differences with others peacefully,
              and that
              we
              > > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe.
              And I
              > > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
              > > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege
              of
              > > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
              > > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I
              was
              > > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
              > > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched
              for
              > > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
              > > centuries ago should mean something.
              > > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
              > > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
              > > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us.
              It's a
              > > charge we
              pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
              > > generation to what we know America should be...
              > > [image removed]
              > > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of
              you
              > > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and
              working
              > > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have
              an
              > > obligation to give something back to this country that has given
              our
              > > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because
              you
              > > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you
              hitch
              > > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will
              realize
              > > your true potential.
              > > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with
              no
              > > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and
              to
              > > grow
              into compassionate, committed women who will help build
              that
              > > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn
              and
              > > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've
              taken
              > > our family on this great adventure.
              > > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
              > > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise,
              grace,
              > > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the
              White House.
              > > Love,
              > > Dad
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
              > > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we
              bring
              > > it to your fingertips. Check it out!
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch
              the
              > > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!
              > >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > Discover your phone style WIN a Windows Mobile phone. Your style!
              Try it now!
              >
              >
              > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to
              http://messenger. yahoo.com/ invite/
              >



              Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
            • Bhuvana Venkat
              ok keeping the topic more relevant to alternate education... What must be the fundamental basis for moral education? As Dheeraj Giridhar pointed out, science
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 3, 2009
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                ok keeping the topic more relevant to alternate education...
                 
                What must be the fundamental basis for moral education?
                 
                As Dheeraj Giridhar pointed out, science does not seem to give the answer. Neither does faith in God. The idea that someone must watch over our actions for us to act morally, has only trained us to beat the system which we do very efficiently be it by any law. I think morality must come from within.
                 
                Then there is the suggestion of universal love by Mathew and as J Krishnamurthy puts it, where there is comparison, there is no love. But what do you do in a situation where you need to choose between a whole species of gorilla and a human being? To wash your hands off saying you love both equally is only escapism.
                 
                Realities are harsh and I beleive the earlier children come to terms with it the better. That is the reson I like some of the traditional english rhymes and stories. They teach children that life is not a bed of roses but with hard work, planning and diligence, difficulties can be overcome. It starts with problems, offers solution and has a happy ending... for ex: Consider London bridge is falling down.
                 
                I once heard a story. There is a competition for the best sunflower farm in which one farm is selected to represent each village. For many years in succession, it is found that the same farm from the same village wins. Finally, they ask the farmer how he acheived it. The farmer answered that the sunflowers are cross polinated by the bees, so it was important that all farms around his own were also of good variety, so he distributed his prize winning seeds to all farmers in the village. While the other farmers were probably only concerned with their own farms.
                 
                This works in most situations, we can all learn more when we share knowledge with each other; to be free of disease, it is insufficient if you just keep your home clean and neglect surroundings. Would such common sense then be a fool-proof fundamental basis for moral education? Where the child understands that cut throat competition can only take you so far but cooperative excellence has much more far reaching effects. There is also the brilliant idea of Benjamin Franklin called - Pay it forward. There is a movie also by that title, interesting to watch.
                 
                It is in this spirit of competition that I actually support it.
                Competitions have some advantages
                 
                1. Since everybody puts their best foot forward, we know exactly where we stand.
                This is essential to know how much more effort we need to put in the chosen field, if we are to get anywhere with it.
                When people know their place it can build humility and appreciation for the fact that different people are good at different things.
                 
                2. Exposure
                It helps learn from others interested in the same. Be it music or art or most others, you learn what was better about some others' performances, learning through observation and example how you can improve your own is important. In tennis or any game you need people better than you to play with to be able to improve your game.
                 
                3. It helps make things more interesting when it is not otherwise so but important.
                 
                4. Talent recognition
                Many people of recent times from Sa Re Ga Ma and other competitions have been recognised early and have been able to get support to continue it as a career.
                 
                In a good life, the grandfather remarks... A man learns nothing from winning. The act of losing however, can elicit great wisdom. It is inevitable to lose once in a while, the trick is not to make a habit of it.
                I think building the right attitude to competitions is by far superior to removing competitions altogether.
                 
                This is a longer mail than I intended, I thank those who took the time to read it
                regards
                Bhuvana


                 


                To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
                From: manju3261@...
                Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:41:03 +0000
                Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's message


                Hi,

                I agree with the opinion expressed by avygravy earlier in this
                thread.

                Also, I wonder if this forum is the right one for discusing
                Creationism vs. Evolution? There are a lot of phrases I do not
                really grasp in the preceding message, like:

                "doing your own thing"
                "born again in the spirit of god"
                "loving to obey the law"

                Which law, for God's sake?

                Let us now go on to debate socialism vs capitalism, globalisation,
                abortion vs pro-life, deeper drilling vs renewable energy, Neo-
                conservatism vs everything else, and other more interesting topics,
                if we have really nothing to discuss about alternative education!

                Also let us not forget the Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrors of
                slavery, and the Holocaust which also invoked the name of the same
                loving Creator.

                I for one do not wish to discuss religious topics on this forum.
                Please start your own forum if you wish to preach.

                Wish the forum moderators would cull introduction of these topics.

                Sorry to say, sick and fed up,
                manju

                --- In alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com, S P Mathew <ashokhosp@. ..>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > There seems to have been a lot of thought and talk on God,
                starting from President Obama's letter to his kids. This shows us
                that we are created with a desire to know our Creator.
                > It is absurd to a logical person to think that 'something' could
                have been created out of nothing [eg: Big Bang] or that nothing
                could have created something [eg: atheists and evolutionists] .  
                > And it is not faith in 'god' that makes a person 'moral'.. Even
                demons believe in God!
                > We humans have been turning away from God and doing our own thing
                since Adam, and that shows a lack of faith in God [like does god
                really know what is best for me?]. It is only when we are born again
                in the spirit of God and become a new creation that we can be
                truly 'moral' from within, loving to obey the law and God from our
                own hearts. There are clear steps to that which anyone can search
                and find out for themselves.
                > Let us not talk, but love as God loves. His love is beyond our
                wildest imagination.
                > Cheers,
                > Mathew
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@... >
                > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Monday, 2 February, 2009 4:10:30 PM
                > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                >
                >
                > I was thinking a lot about the topic.
                > Faith in God does not seem to make a person moral. Ravana, the
                abductor of Seetha was an ardent devotee of Shiva. Most people in
                our world are beleivers, they throng our temples, mosques and
                churches but that does not make them moral. Every temple people push
                and pull in their eagerness to see the lord as long as possible or
                bribe the priest rather than stand in queue, for darshan to be
                quicker in crowded ones. Every religion preaches love but on the
                other hand, there is jihad in the name of allah, the spanish
                inquisition in the name of the church, the war between pandavas and
                kauravas supported by the Bhagavad Gita. The movie Anbe Shivam by
                Kamal(supporting communism and seemingly aetheistic) puts forth the
                concept that whenever a person shows love and sympathy, he is
                himself transformed into the Godly nature.
                > But at the same time, as is put very well in the end of the
                article sent by Mathew, " no valid reason why he personally should
                not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize
                political power and govern in the way that they find most
                advantageous to themselves". For a harmonious, peaceful, happy
                existence acting in co-opearation seems necessary as opposed to the
                ultra competitive survival of the fittest scheme proposed by the
                Darwin's theory. On the other hand, old must make way for the new.
                Classical example.. I was watching the movie Gorillas in the Mist,
                Dian Fossey an active conservationalist argues against selling a
                baby gorilla to the zoo which results in 8 adult gorillas being
                killed for protecting the baby gorilla. However, since the sale can
                bring money, it was important in the undernourished civil war prone
                area. If the sale could bring life to 8 dying people would you
                choose to sell the baby gorilla or choose to let the 8 people
                > die for the gorillas that were going extinct? The zoo keeper
                asks, the first time you learnt to appreciate the animal was at the
                zoo right?
                > As life expectancy and our numbers keep increasing, it is
                inevitable that some will die, if we are careful and understanding,
                it may not be as accelerated as it is today that's all. Is there a
                point where things can break even?
                > regards
                > Bhuvana
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                >
                > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > CC: bhuva78@hotmail. com
                > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
                > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:50:02 +0530
                > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > You think fear of God makes us responsible?
                >
                > In a family, where father is there, kids are controlled (may not
                be by fear, but by love) and a family where father is missing, kids
                are mostly side -tracked.
                >
                > Similarly Darwin theory , which denies the existence of controller
                makes us independant of our action ( bcas we think, no one is seeing
                our actions).
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com wrote on 23/01/2009 16:23:23:
                >
                > > interesting, I never thought of it that way! That is what I was
                > > talking about, a vibrant discussion where no one can ever prove
                > > their stand, still keeps a topic alive rather than dull and drab
                as
                > > in traditional text book learning.
                > > would you please shed more light on the part... rather it is the
                > > opposite way? I didn't get how Darwin's theory makes us
                independent
                > > of our actions as opposed to the other one. You think fear of
                God
                > > makes us responsible?
                > > regards
                > > bhuvana
                > >
                > >
                > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > > From: dheeraj.girdhar@ Linde-LE. com
                > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:02:59 +0530
                > > Subject: RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                > >
                >
                > >
                > > Dear all,
                > >
                > > How is idea of creator is bizzare and unrealistic, I fail to
                understand.
                > >
                > > Simple logic is that whenever you see a wonderful thing, any
                sane
                > > person will understand that someone might have made this.A small
                > > watch moves in a particular way, any intelligent will understand
                > > that someone might have designed it.
                > >
                > > Then how can, nature, which is moving so wonderfully (sun, earth
                and
                > > other other planets) has no creator.
                > >
                > > Rather it is the opposite way, Darwin's theory teaches us to
                become
                > > independant of our actions ( by declaring that there is no
                creator /
                > > no maintaner, do whatever you like) and the idea of God makes us
                > > responsible to our actions.
                > >
                > > Hope this makes some sense.
                > >
                > > Thanks
                > >
                > > Dheeraj Girdhar
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > >
                > > Bhuvana Venkat <bhuva78@hotmail. com>
                > > Sent by: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > > 23/01/09 15:51
                > >
                > > Please respond to
                > > alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > >
                > >
                >
                > >
                > > To
                > >
                > > <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
                > >
                > > cc
                > >
                > > Subject
                > >
                > > RE: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Sorry, no offense but though the idea of Darwin on evolution
                seems
                > > unbeleivable & awesome, the idea of the creator is still more
                > > bizzare and unrealistic. Darwin's theory, also teaches us to
                take
                > > responsibility for our actions rather than throwing our trash
                > > everywhere and depending on someone else to fix it, in this case
                God.
                > > However, I agree that science must be taught not as the sole
                truth
                > > but a possible explanation for what is seen, with different
                > > viewpoints, debates, afterall scientific explanations have been
                > > proven wrong time and again. Our textbooks barely give the
                chance to
                > > explore and debate possibilities which would make a class more
                > > vibrant and thought provoking. After all, it is possible that
                none
                > > of the known explanations are true.
                > > regards
                > > bhuvana
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To: alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com
                > > From: ashokhosp@yahoo. com
                > > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:10:01 +0530
                > > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > It is a very moving letter, especially when President Obama
                says "I
                > > want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-
                > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
                > > sense of wonder about the world around them." What we may not
                > > realise is that most schools by teaching the "theory" of
                evolution
                > > make children to totally lose that sense of wonder of the
                natural
                > > created world around them, because now most kids assume that the
                > > natural world and even their own marvelously designed bodies
                have
                > > come into existence without a designer..
                > > Children are not taught to ask difficult questions and they feel
                > > that is there is no Creator, then what can be the purpose of
                their
                > > lives anyway other that recreation and procreation to continue
                the species?
                > > Think again. Ask yourselves how and why. Then you will realise
                that
                > > the 'theory of evolution' is just that, a failed theory. Help
                our
                > > Children recover the sense of awe and wonder at how beautifully
                we
                > > and they are created by a Living Creator who cares for them.
                > >  
                > > http://creationonth eweb.com/ content/view/ 6155/
                > >  
                > > Is evolution ‘scientific’?
                > >  
                > > Enjoy the weekend,
                > > S P Mathew
                > >  
                > > From: Ramjee Gmail <ramjee.n@gmail. com>
                > > To: Alternate Education India <alt-ed-india@ yahoogroups. com>
                > > Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2009 2:34:51 PM
                > > Subject: [alt-ed-india] Obama's letter to his daughters
                > >
                > > 
                > > Thought some of the members in the group may want to read
                this...
                > >  
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:12 PM
                > > Subject: Obama's letter to his daughters
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi All,
                > > Very forthright and touching
                > > M.G.Mohan
                > >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Obama's Letter To His Daughters: Your Smiles "Fill My Heart"
                > > [image removed]
                > > 'What I Want for You â€" and Every Child in America'
                > > Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th
                President.
                > > On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who
                is
                > > also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he
                wants
                > > for his children.. Here, he shares his letter to them.
                > > Parade Magazine has posted an open letter written by Barack
                Obama to
                > > his daughters Sasha and Malia. Here are a few excerpts; the full
                > > letter is available at Parade.com, and the print version is
                > > available from the January 18th issue. See if you can get
                through it
                > > without tearing up a little..
                > > Letter goes like this,
                > > [image removed]
                > > Dear Malia and Sasha,
                > > I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on
                the
                > > campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs,
                eating
                > > all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have
                let
                > > you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for
                you
                > > and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new
                puppy,
                > > it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how
                > > much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell
                you
                > > a little more about why I decided to take our family on this
                journey.
                > > When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about
                how
                > > I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the
                things
                > > I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your
                > > curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill
                my
                > > heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for
                myself
                > > didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest
                joy
                > > in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my
                own
                > > life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that
                you
                > > had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In
                the
                > > end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I
                want
                > > for you and for every child in this nation.
                > > I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their
                potential-
                > > schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a
                > > sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have
                the
                > > chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I
                > > want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them
                > > benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with
                their
                > > own kids and retire with dignity.
                > > [image removed]
                > > Sasha (l) and Malia Obama at play in New Hampshire in 2007.
                > > I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll
                live to
                > > see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and
                make
                > > our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own
                human
                > > boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region,
                gender
                > > and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.
                > > Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and
                other
                > > dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I
                want
                > > to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try
                our
                > > best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that
                we
                > > do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe.
                And I
                > > want every child to understand that the blessings these brave
                > > Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege
                of
                > > being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.
                > > That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I
                was
                > > your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of
                > > Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched
                for
                > > equality because they believed those words put to paper two
                > > centuries ago should mean something.
                > > She helped me understand that America is great not because it is
                > > perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the
                > > unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us.
                It's a
                > > charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new
                > > generation to what we know America should be...
                > > [image removed]
                > > Bumper cars at the Iowa State Fair in August 2007.I hope both of
                you
                > > will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and
                working
                > > to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have
                an
                > > obligation to give something back to this country that has given
                our
                > > family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because
                you
                > > have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you
                hitch
                > > your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will
                realize
                > > your true potential.
                > > These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with
                no
                > > limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and
                to
                > > grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build
                that
                > > world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn
                and
                > > dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've
                taken
                > > our family on this great adventure.
                > > I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever
                > > know.. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise,
                grace,
                > > and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the
                White House.
                > > Love,
                > > Dad
                > >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > >  
                > >
                > >
                > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
                > > News, views and chilling images. If it matters for India, we
                bring
                > > it to your fingertips. Check it out!
                > >
                >
                > >
                > > Akshay Kumar takes on the two reigning Bollywood Khans. Catch
                the
                > > action on MSN Entertainment! Check it out!
                > >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
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                >
                > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to
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