Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love their children...

Expand Messages
  • HSIM
    Dear Satish, Sameer, and Clive, Thanks for your responses. Seems like this is turning to be a pretty thought-provoking debate. I do not advocate violence with
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 1, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Satish, Sameer, and Clive,
       
      Thanks for your responses.  Seems like this is turning to be a pretty thought-provoking debate.
       
      I do not advocate violence with no provocation.  This goes for individuals, communities, nations...
       
      What is more, even if someone has been mean or nasty to me, usually my first line of defence is to apply my personal belief in rebirth (which, I feel, is an important aspect in my practicing non-violence).  I do try and tell myself that if someone hurts me, then perhaps it is payback from my hurting him/ her in some past life (if not in this one).  And that I should try to tolerate it.  To a limited extent, this calms me down reasonably.
       
      While there are some situations where this approach prevents me from responding angrily to another's attack, there are others where it does not work for me practically.  Under certain circumstances, I do feel much more impelled to take action!!  That I have endured certain kinds of attack, I cannot deny.  So this is not a hypothetical situation.
       
      I feel like we have pretty much resolved this dilemna over 'violence'.  Hard to generalize or make absolute statements without knowing the intimate details of each situation.  My suggestion, if at all I were to give one, is for people to seek as much information as possible before making a final pronouncement.
       
      Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts!
       
      Cheers,
      - Neela.


      Satish Natarajan <satish_en@...> wrote:
      Hello Everyone,

      It is true we have to guard our children from any kind
      of isms, but that is not going to happen if we start
      giving them ideas or concepts which is not relevant to
      them at all at the time they receive it.  It is like
      trying to feed a child when he/she is not hungry.
      Initially there will be resistance but over a period
      of time they would start eating out of habit and not
      because they are hungry.  If we do not teach the
      children anything but just allow them to explore, they
      learn best and what is most relevant to them.  The
      memory of any idea that remains in the child, will
      only come out as a reaction to situations they face. 

      Now coming to the discussion of violence.  Take the
      case of violence that is being inflicted on us or
      someone we are with.  If we react to it with vengence
      violently, all it is going to do is create more chaos
      within us later.  At the same time not acting because
      of fear, but still harboring the violence within us is
      also going to create the same chaos within us.  This
      is going to remain like a volcano and can come out
      even more violently later.  This is the philosophy of
      Krishna.  He says violence or no violence  externally
      is not the right reflection of what is happening
      inside.  The centeredness that we have to have
      internally is more important.  The actions coming out
      of that centeredness is not violence but the right
      action. This will not leave any residue within us, at
      the same time in the external world it is a deterrent
      for others who act irresponsibly. 

      A walking fountain of love is what we require today
      and not a walking volcano.  Fearlessness is not a
      feeling of strength.  It should come out of the love
      for the entire creation.  A physically strong person
      will react even to the simple playfulness of a child,
      but a loving person will watch the childs play and
      participate in it.

      Regards
      Satish

      --- Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:

      > Hi Neela,
      >
      > Once again I say I am not in any way saying what
      > you, or anyone, should do, or should not do. Neither
      > am I advocating complacence - far from it!
      >
      > When  I say the question is a "wrong" question, that
      > means it can only produce wrong answers. Such
      > questions lead precisely to the situation we seem to
      > have arrived at, which is why I initially left it
      > alone. The "what should be" always divides. It
      > divides people and it divides our own minds.
      > Division means conflict. You asked me for an opinion
      > on an issue, and so the question is hypothetical to
      > me - because I am not actually facing the issue that
      > you describe. Of course it is not hypothetical to
      > someone actually facing the fact of violence. And of
      > course there is a great deal of violence in the
      > world, that is a fact. The issue that was being
      > discussed was really the right way to raise and
      > educate children to bring an end to violence, to
      > bring about a secure world.
      >
      > I never took a "moral" stand on the question of
      > killing. I never said one should not or should do
      > it. What I pointed out was the obvious fact that
      > killing others has been a part of human behaviour
      > for time immemorial, and it has cause enormous
      > suffering. And that much of killing, wars, is driven
      > by people identifying themselves with a nation, with
      > a religious belief, with an ideology.
      >
      > You are free to say what you want to Neela. And I am
      > likewise free to respond with what I see as the
      > truth. Except as it says on the website:
      >
      > "Please note that in so far as any organisation
      > exists, it is non-sectarian and non-hierarchical. 
      > The intention is that we learn together"
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Clive
      >
      >
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: HSIM
      >   To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
      >   Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:12 AM
      >   Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love their
      > children...
      >
      >
      >   Dear Clive,
      >
      >   Why is my question a wrong question?  Surely, I
      > hope it is not dubbed wrong simply because some of
      > us cannot come up with a cogent answer!  I maintain
      > that it is not such a hypothetical question after
      > all.  Women are assaulted by the day, and sometimes
      > bystanders watch like they have no chivalry in their
      > bones - just because they cannot stand the word
      > 'kill'.  Maybe I have not reached such a stage of
      > complacence, and I guess I should thank God for the
      > same!
      >
      >   Lord Krishna was one of the greatest figures of
      > all time, and He had nothing against taking
      > righteous action against people who have perpetrated
      > bad deeds.  As you probably know, the wife of the
      > Pandavas was publicly humiliated and her husbands
      > had every right to use justice against the
      > perpetrators.  Many women have been misused and
      > abused and justice to them has been prevented under
      > the name of peace and this and that nonsensical
      > advice.  I have met and spoken to such women so
      > these incidents are NOT hypothetical!
      >
      >   Of course, I totally agree that using any term -
      > whether nationalism or any other ism - just as a
      > reason to hurt others, with no provocation, is
      > wrong!  I am not at all the one to advocate such
      > inhumane behavior.  But responding with force to
      > those who hurt / threaten to hurt us / another we
      > are somehow connected with, is at times justifiable.
      >
      >   There is a time to 'kill', as the movie title
      > goes.  I rest my case, and don't think I can discuss
      > this particular topic with you further unless you
      > can see validity in my questions!  This situation is
      > like tying my hands to each other and asking me to
      > feed myself!!  This one feels less like a dialogue
      > and more like an elder is pushing food down my
      > throat about what kind of questions I should and
      > should not ask!
      >
      >   Have a great day!
      >
      >   Regards
      >   - Neela.
      >
      >
      >   Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:
      >     
      >
      >     
      >
      >      Dear Neela,
      >
      >     
      >
      >     You are right, I haven't answered some of your
      > questions specifically; questions that are based on
      > "what should I do if . . ". The reason for this is
      > that I feel they are wrong questions to put.
      >
      >     
      >
      >     It is not up to me to advise you what you should
      > do. It is not my responsibility to tell anyone what
      > they should do, in fact. It is my responsibility to
      > ACT, to meet directly the challenges that come my
      > way - actually come my way.
      >
      >     
      >
      >     I feel it is pointless, if not dangerous in
      > fact, to try to respond to hypothetical situations.
      > It is a useless waste of energy to have opinions on
      > matters, and in fact opinions divide people and
      > bring about conflict. One can observe that
      > happening.
      >
      >     
      >
      >     What does it mean if I make a pronouncement that
      > such and such action would be wrong or is right?
      > What difference does it actually make? Anything at
      > all?
      >
      >     
      >
      >     Society as it is, is utterly insecure.  There is
      > no safety for anyone. Why in the thousands of years
      > of human development have we not been able to
      > produce a society which is secure for everyone?
      > Society needs tremendous reform. At the moment
      > everyone has their own ideas on what should be done.
      > But ideas divide people, do they not? In fact is it
      > not ideas which have separated people into nations,
      > religious beliefs, ideologies, etc, and so brought
      > about an insecure world?
      >
      >     
      >
      >     To meet an emergency situation such as you
      > describe needs complete alertness, and a lack of
      > fear. Such a state is not bought about by
      > predetermining how one should act; deciding how one
      > should meet it beforehand. The past can never
      > adequately meet the challenges of the present (that
      > is not to dismiss the necessity for technical
      > information to solve technical problems). Have you
      > ever met a real, physical emergency? Is so you will
      > have noticed how instantly thought drops away,
      > leaving the body free to act, and so take the best
      > possible action to preserve itself. This is the
      > intelligence of the body.
      >
      >     
      >
      >     Ideas, thought, opinions, predetermined courses
      > of action, only hinder that intelligence.
      >
      >     
      >
      >     Regards
      >
      >     
      >
      >     Clive
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >   Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home
      > page
      >

      >
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      >   This mailing list is primarily for the use of
      > families who are home educating in India, and those
      > who are considering doing so. However, all those
      > with a deep interest in serious education are
      > welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to
      > facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
      > questions, to learn together, to share, and to
      > support those who are home educating.
      >
      >
      >   If you have a web-based subscription, you can
      > learn
      === message truncated ===> No virus found in this
      outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 -
      > Release Date: 30/08/2005
      >


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

    • HSIM
      Dear Satish, Sameer, and Clive, Thanks for your responses. Seems like this is turning to be a pretty thought-provoking debate. I do not advocate violence with
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Satish, Sameer, and Clive,
         
        Thanks for your responses.  Seems like this is turning to be a pretty thought-provoking debate.
         
        I do not advocate violence with no provocation.  This goes for individuals, communities, nations...
         
        What is more, even if someone has been mean or nasty to me, usually my first line of defence is to apply my personal belief in rebirth (which, I feel, is an important aspect in my practicing non-violence).  I do try and tell myself that if someone hurts me, then perhaps it is payback from my hurting him/ her in some past life (if not in this one).  And that I should try to tolerate it.  To a limited extent, this calms me down reasonably.
         
        While there are some situations where this approach prevents me from responding angrily to another's attack, there are others where it does not work for me practically.  Under certain circumstances, I do feel much more impelled to take action!!  That I have endured certain kinds of attack, I cannot deny.  So this is not a hypothetical situation.
         
        I feel like we have pretty much resolved this dilemna over 'violence'.  Hard to generalize or make absolute statements without knowing the intimate details of each situation.  My suggestion, if at all I were to give one, is for people to seek as much information as possible before making a final pronouncement.
         
        Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts!
         
        Cheers,
        - Neela.


        Satish Natarajan <satish_en@...> wrote:
        Hello Everyone,

        It is true we have to guard our children from any kind
        of isms, but that is not going to happen if we start
        giving them ideas or concepts which is not relevant to
        them at all at the time they receive it.  It is like
        trying to feed a child when he/she is not hungry.
        Initially there will be resistance but over a period
        of time they would start eating out of habit and not
        because they are hungry.  If we do not teach the
        children anything but just allow them to explore, they
        learn best and what is most relevant to them.  The
        memory of any idea that remains in the child, will
        only come out as a reaction to situations they face. 

        Now coming to the discussion of violence.  Take the
        case of violence that is being inflicted on us or
        someone we are with.  If we react to it with vengence
        violently, all it is going to do is create more chaos
        within us later.  At the same time not acting because
        of fear, but still harboring the violence within us is
        also going to create the same chaos within us.  This
        is going to remain like a volcano and can come out
        even more violently later.  This is the philosophy of
        Krishna.  He says violence or no violence  externally
        is not the right reflection of what is happening
        inside.  The centeredness that we have to have
        internally is more important.  The actions coming out
        of that centeredness is not violence but the right
        action. This will not leave any residue within us, at
        the same time in the external world it is a deterrent
        for others who act irresponsibly. 

        A walking fountain of love is what we require today
        and not a walking volcano.  Fearlessness is not a
        feeling of strength.  It should come out of the love
        for the entire creation.  A physically strong person
        will react even to the simple playfulness of a child,
        but a loving person will watch the childs play and
        participate in it.

        Regards
        Satish

        --- Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:

        > Hi Neela,
        >
        > Once again I say I am not in any way saying what
        > you, or anyone, should do, or should not do. Neither
        > am I advocating complacence - far from it!
        >
        > When  I say the question is a "wrong" question, that
        > means it can only produce wrong answers. Such
        > questions lead precisely to the situation we seem to
        > have arrived at, which is why I initially left it
        > alone. The "what should be" always divides. It
        > divides people and it divides our own minds.
        > Division means conflict. You asked me for an opinion
        > on an issue, and so the question is hypothetical to
        > me - because I am not actually facing the issue that
        > you describe. Of course it is not hypothetical to
        > someone actually facing the fact of violence. And of
        > course there is a great deal of violence in the
        > world, that is a fact. The issue that was being
        > discussed was really the right way to raise and
        > educate children to bring an end to violence, to
        > bring about a secure world.
        >
        > I never took a "moral" stand on the question of
        > killing. I never said one should not or should do
        > it. What I pointed out was the obvious fact that
        > killing others has been a part of human behaviour
        > for time immemorial, and it has cause enormous
        > suffering. And that much of killing, wars, is driven
        > by people identifying themselves with a nation, with
        > a religious belief, with an ideology.
        >
        > You are free to say what you want to Neela. And I am
        > likewise free to respond with what I see as the
        > truth. Except as it says on the website:
        >
        > "Please note that in so far as any organisation
        > exists, it is non-sectarian and non-hierarchical. 
        > The intention is that we learn together"
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Clive
        >
        >
        >   ----- Original Message -----
        >   From: HSIM
        >   To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
        >   Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:12 AM
        >   Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love their
        > children...
        >
        >
        >   Dear Clive,
        >
        >   Why is my question a wrong question?  Surely, I
        > hope it is not dubbed wrong simply because some of
        > us cannot come up with a cogent answer!  I maintain
        > that it is not such a hypothetical question after
        > all.  Women are assaulted by the day, and sometimes
        > bystanders watch like they have no chivalry in their
        > bones - just because they cannot stand the word
        > 'kill'.  Maybe I have not reached such a stage of
        > complacence, and I guess I should thank God for the
        > same!
        >
        >   Lord Krishna was one of the greatest figures of
        > all time, and He had nothing against taking
        > righteous action against people who have perpetrated
        > bad deeds.  As you probably know, the wife of the
        > Pandavas was publicly humiliated and her husbands
        > had every right to use justice against the
        > perpetrators.  Many women have been misused and
        > abused and justice to them has been prevented under
        > the name of peace and this and that nonsensical
        > advice.  I have met and spoken to such women so
        > these incidents are NOT hypothetical!
        >
        >   Of course, I totally agree that using any term -
        > whether nationalism or any other ism - just as a
        > reason to hurt others, with no provocation, is
        > wrong!  I am not at all the one to advocate such
        > inhumane behavior.  But responding with force to
        > those who hurt / threaten to hurt us / another we
        > are somehow connected with, is at times justifiable.
        >
        >   There is a time to 'kill', as the movie title
        > goes.  I rest my case, and don't think I can discuss
        > this particular topic with you further unless you
        > can see validity in my questions!  This situation is
        > like tying my hands to each other and asking me to
        > feed myself!!  This one feels less like a dialogue
        > and more like an elder is pushing food down my
        > throat about what kind of questions I should and
        > should not ask!
        >
        >   Have a great day!
        >
        >   Regards
        >   - Neela.
        >
        >
        >   Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:
        >     
        >
        >     
        >
        >      Dear Neela,
        >
        >     
        >
        >     You are right, I haven't answered some of your
        > questions specifically; questions that are based on
        > "what should I do if . . ". The reason for this is
        > that I feel they are wrong questions to put.
        >
        >     
        >
        >     It is not up to me to advise you what you should
        > do. It is not my responsibility to tell anyone what
        > they should do, in fact. It is my responsibility to
        > ACT, to meet directly the challenges that come my
        > way - actually come my way.
        >
        >     
        >
        >     I feel it is pointless, if not dangerous in
        > fact, to try to respond to hypothetical situations.
        > It is a useless waste of energy to have opinions on
        > matters, and in fact opinions divide people and
        > bring about conflict. One can observe that
        > happening.
        >
        >     
        >
        >     What does it mean if I make a pronouncement that
        > such and such action would be wrong or is right?
        > What difference does it actually make? Anything at
        > all?
        >
        >     
        >
        >     Society as it is, is utterly insecure.  There is
        > no safety for anyone. Why in the thousands of years
        > of human development have we not been able to
        > produce a society which is secure for everyone?
        > Society needs tremendous reform. At the moment
        > everyone has their own ideas on what should be done.
        > But ideas divide people, do they not? In fact is it
        > not ideas which have separated people into nations,
        > religious beliefs, ideologies, etc, and so brought
        > about an insecure world?
        >
        >     
        >
        >     To meet an emergency situation such as you
        > describe needs complete alertness, and a lack of
        > fear. Such a state is not bought about by
        > predetermining how one should act; deciding how one
        > should meet it beforehand. The past can never
        > adequately meet the challenges of the present (that
        > is not to dismiss the necessity for technical
        > information to solve technical problems). Have you
        > ever met a real, physical emergency? Is so you will
        > have noticed how instantly thought drops away,
        > leaving the body free to act, and so take the best
        > possible action to preserve itself. This is the
        > intelligence of the body.
        >
        >     
        >
        >     Ideas, thought, opinions, predetermined courses
        > of action, only hinder that intelligence.
        >
        >     
        >
        >     Regards
        >
        >     
        >
        >     Clive
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >   Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home
        > page
        >

        >
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >   This mailing list is primarily for the use of
        > families who are home educating in India, and those
        > who are considering doing so. However, all those
        > with a deep interest in serious education are
        > welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to
        > facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
        > questions, to learn together, to share, and to
        > support those who are home educating.
        >
        >
        >   If you have a web-based subscription, you can
        > learn
        === message truncated ===> No virus found in this
        outgoing message.
        > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
        > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 -
        > Release Date: 30/08/2005
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com


        Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
      • Clive Elwell
        Hi Satish, If you don t mind me saying so, a marvellous post. Beautiful in the simplicity of its truth. Still absorbing the implications. Regards Clive ...
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Satish,

          If you don't mind me saying so, a marvellous post. Beautiful in the
          simplicity of its truth.

          Still absorbing the implications.

          Regards

          Clive



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Satish Natarajan" <satish_en@...>
          To: <alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:46 PM
          Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love their children...


          > Hello Everyone,
          >
          > It is true we have to guard our children from any kind
          > of isms, but that is not going to happen if we start
          > giving them ideas or concepts which is not relevant to
          > them at all at the time they receive it. It is like
          > trying to feed a child when he/she is not hungry.
          > Initially there will be resistance but over a period
          > of time they would start eating out of habit and not
          > because they are hungry. If we do not teach the
          > children anything but just allow them to explore, they
          > learn best and what is most relevant to them. The
          > memory of any idea that remains in the child, will
          > only come out as a reaction to situations they face.
          >
          > Now coming to the discussion of violence. Take the
          > case of violence that is being inflicted on us or
          > someone we are with. If we react to it with vengence
          > violently, all it is going to do is create more chaos
          > within us later. At the same time not acting because
          > of fear, but still harboring the violence within us is
          > also going to create the same chaos within us. This
          > is going to remain like a volcano and can come out
          > even more violently later. This is the philosophy of
          > Krishna. He says violence or no violence externally
          > is not the right reflection of what is happening
          > inside. The centeredness that we have to have
          > internally is more important. The actions coming out
          > of that centeredness is not violence but the right
          > action. This will not leave any residue within us, at
          > the same time in the external world it is a deterrent
          > for others who act irresponsibly.
          >
          > A walking fountain of love is what we require today
          > and not a walking volcano. Fearlessness is not a
          > feeling of strength. It should come out of the love
          > for the entire creation. A physically strong person
          > will react even to the simple playfulness of a child,
          > but a loving person will watch the childs play and
          > participate in it.
          >
          > Regards
          > Satish
          >
          > --- Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Hi Neela,
          >>
          >> Once again I say I am not in any way saying what
          >> you, or anyone, should do, or should not do. Neither
          >> am I advocating complacence - far from it!
          >>
          >> When I say the question is a "wrong" question, that
          >> means it can only produce wrong answers. Such
          >> questions lead precisely to the situation we seem to
          >> have arrived at, which is why I initially left it
          >> alone. The "what should be" always divides. It
          >> divides people and it divides our own minds.
          >> Division means conflict. You asked me for an opinion
          >> on an issue, and so the question is hypothetical to
          >> me - because I am not actually facing the issue that
          >> you describe. Of course it is not hypothetical to
          >> someone actually facing the fact of violence. And of
          >> course there is a great deal of violence in the
          >> world, that is a fact. The issue that was being
          >> discussed was really the right way to raise and
          >> educate children to bring an end to violence, to
          >> bring about a secure world.
          >>
          >> I never took a "moral" stand on the question of
          >> killing. I never said one should not or should do
          >> it. What I pointed out was the obvious fact that
          >> killing others has been a part of human behaviour
          >> for time immemorial, and it has cause enormous
          >> suffering. And that much of killing, wars, is driven
          >> by people identifying themselves with a nation, with
          >> a religious belief, with an ideology.
          >>
          >> You are free to say what you want to Neela. And I am
          >> likewise free to respond with what I see as the
          >> truth. Except as it says on the website:
          >>
          >> "Please note that in so far as any organisation
          >> exists, it is non-sectarian and non-hierarchical.
          >> The intention is that we learn together"
          >>
          >> Regards
          >>
          >> Clive
          >>
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: HSIM
          >> To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:12 AM
          >> Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love their
          >> children...
          >>
          >>
          >> Dear Clive,
          >>
          >> Why is my question a wrong question? Surely, I
          >> hope it is not dubbed wrong simply because some of
          >> us cannot come up with a cogent answer! I maintain
          >> that it is not such a hypothetical question after
          >> all. Women are assaulted by the day, and sometimes
          >> bystanders watch like they have no chivalry in their
          >> bones - just because they cannot stand the word
          >> 'kill'. Maybe I have not reached such a stage of
          >> complacence, and I guess I should thank God for the
          >> same!
          >>
          >> Lord Krishna was one of the greatest figures of
          >> all time, and He had nothing against taking
          >> righteous action against people who have perpetrated
          >> bad deeds. As you probably know, the wife of the
          >> Pandavas was publicly humiliated and her husbands
          >> had every right to use justice against the
          >> perpetrators. Many women have been misused and
          >> abused and justice to them has been prevented under
          >> the name of peace and this and that nonsensical
          >> advice. I have met and spoken to such women so
          >> these incidents are NOT hypothetical!
          >>
          >> Of course, I totally agree that using any term -
          >> whether nationalism or any other ism - just as a
          >> reason to hurt others, with no provocation, is
          >> wrong! I am not at all the one to advocate such
          >> inhumane behavior. But responding with force to
          >> those who hurt / threaten to hurt us / another we
          >> are somehow connected with, is at times justifiable.
          >>
          >> There is a time to 'kill', as the movie title
          >> goes. I rest my case, and don't think I can discuss
          >> this particular topic with you further unless you
          >> can see validity in my questions! This situation is
          >> like tying my hands to each other and asking me to
          >> feed myself!! This one feels less like a dialogue
          >> and more like an elder is pushing food down my
          >> throat about what kind of questions I should and
          >> should not ask!
          >>
          >> Have a great day!
          >>
          >> Regards
          >> - Neela.
          >>
          >>
          >> Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Dear Neela,
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> You are right, I haven't answered some of your
          >> questions specifically; questions that are based on
          >> "what should I do if . . ". The reason for this is
          >> that I feel they are wrong questions to put.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> It is not up to me to advise you what you should
          >> do. It is not my responsibility to tell anyone what
          >> they should do, in fact. It is my responsibility to
          >> ACT, to meet directly the challenges that come my
          >> way - actually come my way.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> I feel it is pointless, if not dangerous in
          >> fact, to try to respond to hypothetical situations.
          >> It is a useless waste of energy to have opinions on
          >> matters, and in fact opinions divide people and
          >> bring about conflict. One can observe that
          >> happening.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> What does it mean if I make a pronouncement that
          >> such and such action would be wrong or is right?
          >> What difference does it actually make? Anything at
          >> all?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Society as it is, is utterly insecure. There is
          >> no safety for anyone. Why in the thousands of years
          >> of human development have we not been able to
          >> produce a society which is secure for everyone?
          >> Society needs tremendous reform. At the moment
          >> everyone has their own ideas on what should be done.
          >> But ideas divide people, do they not? In fact is it
          >> not ideas which have separated people into nations,
          >> religious beliefs, ideologies, etc, and so brought
          >> about an insecure world?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> To meet an emergency situation such as you
          >> describe needs complete alertness, and a lack of
          >> fear. Such a state is not bought about by
          >> predetermining how one should act; deciding how one
          >> should meet it beforehand. The past can never
          >> adequately meet the challenges of the present (that
          >> is not to dismiss the necessity for technical
          >> information to solve technical problems). Have you
          >> ever met a real, physical emergency? Is so you will
          >> have noticed how instantly thought drops away,
          >> leaving the body free to act, and so take the best
          >> possible action to preserve itself. This is the
          >> intelligence of the body.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Ideas, thought, opinions, predetermined courses
          >> of action, only hinder that intelligence.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Regards
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Clive
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home
          >> page
          >>
          >>
          >>
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> This mailing list is primarily for the use of
          >> families who are home educating in India, and those
          >> who are considering doing so. However, all those
          >> with a deep interest in serious education are
          >> welcome to participate. The list's intentions are to
          >> facilitate enquiry into fundamental educational
          >> questions, to learn together, to share, and to
          >> support those who are home educating.
          >>
          >>
          >> If you have a web-based subscription, you can
          >> learn
          > === message truncated ===> No virus found in this
          > outgoing message.
          >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          >> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 -
          >> Release Date: 30/08/2005
          >>
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > This mailing list is primarily for the use of families who are home
          > educating in India, and those who are considering doing so. However, all
          > those with a deep interest in serious education are welcome to
          > participate. The list's intentions are to facilitate enquiry into
          > fundamental educational questions, to learn together, to share, and to
          > support those who are home educating.
          >
          >
          > If you have a web-based subscription, you can learn more about the
          > Alternative Education in India group, and view the archives, by visiting:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-ed-india
          >
          > To start sending messages to members of the group, simply send emails to:
          > alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > If you do not wish to belong to home_educating_india, you may unsubscribe
          > by sending an email to:
          > alt-ed-india-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > There are associated web pages at:
          > www.alternativeeducationindia.net
          >
          > Here you can if you wish add yourself to the local contact groups data
          > base, which is to enable members of the group to make personal contact
          > with others who live nearby.
          >
          > list owner: alt-ed-india-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > **********************************************************************
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 30/08/2005
          >
          >



          --
          No virus found in this outgoing message.
          Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 30/08/2005
        • PRASANT JOHNSON
          Satish, Neela and all else, Namaskaram! And this is onam season - greetings to you all on ONAM, from the state of Keralam! I was following the discussion on
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 14, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Satish, Neela and all else,
            Namaskaram! And this is onam season - greetings to you
            all on ONAM, from the state of Keralam!
            I was following the discussion on NON-VIOLENCE with
            great interest, and am grateful for the inspirations
            from both Satish (it appeals to me sound, and sort of
            articulates what I would like to do!) and Neela
            (opening up another facet of responding to violence!).
            ONAM legend is IN A SENSE, the story of a response to
            violence. Perhaps it was Bali's centredness (which
            might include the faith in rebirth) that helped him to
            stay calm and subject himself to a self-effacing
            practice of hospitality!
            Wish you all well!
            prasant

            --- HSIM <hsim95@...> wrote:

            > Dear Satish, Sameer, and Clive,
            >
            > Thanks for your responses. Seems like this is
            > turning to be a pretty thought-provoking debate.
            >
            > I do not advocate violence with no provocation.
            > This goes for individuals, communities, nations...
            >
            > What is more, even if someone has been mean or nasty
            > to me, usually my first line of defence is to apply
            > my personal belief in rebirth (which, I feel, is an
            > important aspect in my practicing non-violence). I
            > do try and tell myself that if someone hurts me,
            > then perhaps it is payback from my hurting him/ her
            > in some past life (if not in this one). And that I
            > should try to tolerate it. To a limited extent,
            > this calms me down reasonably.
            >
            > While there are some situations where this approach
            > prevents me from responding angrily to another's
            > attack, there are others where it does not work for
            > me practically. Under certain circumstances, I do
            > feel much more impelled to take action!! That I
            > have endured certain kinds of attack, I cannot deny.
            > So this is not a hypothetical situation.
            >
            > I feel like we have pretty much resolved this
            > dilemna over 'violence'. Hard to generalize or make
            > absolute statements without knowing the intimate
            > details of each situation. My suggestion, if at all
            > I were to give one, is for people to seek as much
            > information as possible before making a final
            > pronouncement.
            >
            > Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts!
            >
            > Cheers,
            > - Neela.
            >
            >
            > Satish Natarajan <satish_en@...> wrote:
            > Hello Everyone,
            >
            > It is true we have to guard our children from any
            > kind
            > of isms, but that is not going to happen if we start
            > giving them ideas or concepts which is not relevant
            > to
            > them at all at the time they receive it. It is like
            > trying to feed a child when he/she is not hungry.
            > Initially there will be resistance but over a period
            > of time they would start eating out of habit and not
            > because they are hungry. If we do not teach the
            > children anything but just allow them to explore,
            > they
            > learn best and what is most relevant to them. The
            > memory of any idea that remains in the child, will
            > only come out as a reaction to situations they face.
            >
            >
            > Now coming to the discussion of violence. Take the
            > case of violence that is being inflicted on us or
            > someone we are with. If we react to it with
            > vengence
            > violently, all it is going to do is create more
            > chaos
            > within us later. At the same time not acting
            > because
            > of fear, but still harboring the violence within us
            > is
            > also going to create the same chaos within us. This
            > is going to remain like a volcano and can come out
            > even more violently later. This is the philosophy
            > of
            > Krishna. He says violence or no violence
            > externally
            > is not the right reflection of what is happening
            > inside. The centeredness that we have to have
            > internally is more important. The actions coming
            > out
            > of that centeredness is not violence but the right
            > action. This will not leave any residue within us,
            > at
            > the same time in the external world it is a
            > deterrent
            > for others who act irresponsibly.
            >
            > A walking fountain of love is what we require today
            > and not a walking volcano. Fearlessness is not a
            > feeling of strength. It should come out of the love
            > for the entire creation. A physically strong person
            > will react even to the simple playfulness of a
            > child,
            > but a loving person will watch the childs play and
            > participate in it.
            >
            > Regards
            > Satish
            >
            > --- Clive Elwell <cliveelwell@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Hi Neela,
            > >
            > > Once again I say I am not in any way saying what
            > > you, or anyone, should do, or should not do.
            > Neither
            > > am I advocating complacence - far from it!
            > >
            > > When I say the question is a "wrong" question,
            > that
            > > means it can only produce wrong answers. Such
            > > questions lead precisely to the situation we seem
            > to
            > > have arrived at, which is why I initially left it
            > > alone. The "what should be" always divides. It
            > > divides people and it divides our own minds.
            > > Division means conflict. You asked me for an
            > opinion
            > > on an issue, and so the question is hypothetical
            > to
            > > me - because I am not actually facing the issue
            > that
            > > you describe. Of course it is not hypothetical to
            > > someone actually facing the fact of violence. And
            > of
            > > course there is a great deal of violence in the
            > > world, that is a fact. The issue that was being
            > > discussed was really the right way to raise and
            > > educate children to bring an end to violence, to
            > > bring about a secure world.
            > >
            > > I never took a "moral" stand on the question of
            > > killing. I never said one should not or should do
            > > it. What I pointed out was the obvious fact that
            > > killing others has been a part of human behaviour
            > > for time immemorial, and it has cause enormous
            > > suffering. And that much of killing, wars, is
            > driven
            > > by people identifying themselves with a nation,
            > with
            > > a religious belief, with an ideology.
            > >
            > > You are free to say what you want to Neela. And I
            > am
            > > likewise free to respond with what I see as the
            > > truth. Except as it says on the website:
            > >
            > > "Please note that in so far as any organisation
            > > exists, it is non-sectarian and non-hierarchical.
            >
            > > The intention is that we learn together"
            > >
            > > Regards
            > >
            > > Clive
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: HSIM
            > > To: alt-ed-india@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:12 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [alt-ed-india] If parents love
            > their
            > > children...
            > >
            > >
            > > Dear Clive,
            > >
            > > Why is my question a wrong question? Surely, I
            > > hope it is not dubbed wrong simply because some of
            > > us cannot come up with a cogent answer! I
            > maintain
            > > that it is not such a hypothetical question after
            > > all. Women are assaulted by the day, and
            > sometimes
            > > bystanders watch like they have no chivalry in
            > their
            > > bones - just because they cannot stand the word
            > > 'kill'. Maybe I have not reached such a stage of
            > > complacence, and I guess I should thank God for
            > the
            > > same!
            > >
            > > Lord Krishna was one of the greatest figures of
            > > all time, and He had nothing against taking
            > > righteous action against people who have
            > perpetrated
            > > bad deeds. As you probably know, the wife of the
            > > Pandavas was publicly humiliated and her husbands
            > > had every right to use justice against the
            > > perpetrators. Many women have been misused and
            > > abused and justice to them has been prevented
            > under
            > > the name of peace and this and that nonsensical
            > > advice. I have met and spoken to such women so
            > > these incidents are NOT hypothetical!
            > >
            > > Of course, I totally agree that using any term -
            > > whether nationalism or any other ism - just as a
            > > reason to hurt others, with no provocation, is
            > > wrong! I am not at all the one to advocate such
            >
            === message truncated ===




            ___________________________________________________________
            How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
            snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.