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Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"

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  • Bob Matter
    Well, I believe in both gods. Money AND gunpowder. -Bob M. Chicago
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Well, I believe in both gods.  Money AND gunpowder.

      -Bob M.
      Chicago
    • Dale A. Wood
      Have you ever read the non-canonical book in which the figure Daniel is a prominent character?  I have not, nor do I intend to. I just heard about it from a
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 1, 2011
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        Have you ever read the non-canonical book in which the figure Daniel is a prominent character? 
        I have not, nor do I intend to. I just heard about it from a TV program on either The History Channel or the Discovery Channel.
         
        In any case, Daniel seemed to be a cool dude (!) in this one.
         
        Also, I have read of a significant group of Catholics who want to make Mary a "co-redeemer", along with Jesus Christ.
        In a way, that would make Mary the "Wife of God" as well as the "Mother of God".   "Mother of God" never made much sense to me, probably because I usually think of God as "God the Father", but I am a Unitarian anyway.
         
        Unitarianism began a long time ago as a rebellion against the concept of the Trinity, though it has moved a long way from that and also merged with Universalism. Universalism began in the Colonies of New England as a rebellion against the Presbyterians and the Separatists.
         
        My only sister has converted to Presbyterianism. I say, "No wonder that we were always like oil and water." 
        Religiously, I am actually a Skeptic. 
        Look it up in www.Wikipedia.org and other Web sites if you want to know what that is. 
         
        Just before he was going to be shot in South Africa for alleged war crimes, the Australian soldier Breaker Morant was inquired as to his religion. He replied, "I am a pagan." Then, when his buddy who was going to be shot on the same day was asked the same question, he replied, "I'm a pagan, too."
         
        Breaker Morant got his nickname of "Breaker" because of his great ability at breaking horses to saddleback riding back in his home state in Australia. Morant was a one of a good deal of Aussie soldiers who got sent to South Africa to fight against the Boers there on behalf of the British Empire, which in the last years of Queen Victoria (like 1898 - 1901, or so). The Boers were setters whose ancestors has migrated from the area that we now call the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg.
         
        [This was during the same period of time when Dutchmen were settling in New Holland and New Amsterdam, which were later taken over by the British and made into New York and New York City. A Dutchman "bought" Manhattan Island from the Indians for an assorment of knick-knacks, including a clock -- but the Indians did not understand the concept of owning land, buying it, and selling it. That was simply not part of their culture. Dutch people in New York became the ancestors of Theodore Roosevelt, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Franklin D. Roosevelt. 
        Now, it has just occured to me that this was a reason why the Dutchmen in New York State fought so hard against the British during the Revolutionary War -- they hated being ruled by the British, and they were gung-ho in favor of Independence. Major victories over the British Army occurred at places in New York like Fort Ticonderoga, Saratoga, Oriskany, White Plains, and so forth -- though the British did occupy New York City for nearly the entire Revolutionary War.]
         
        Other Dutchmen settled in places like (the future) Indonesia (the Dutch East Indies), Surinam, and the Dutch West Indies.] 
         
        I don't know whether Breaker Morant lived to see the founding of the Dominion of Australia on January 1, 1901, or not. That was when six different self-governing British Dominions unified to form a new country (still a part of the British Empire). Clockwise from the northeast, these were Queensland, New South Wales, Tasmania, Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia.
         
        [The Australian Capital Territory was founded in southeastern New South Wales (at Canberra) in about 1912, but that place was not ready for the Australian Parliament to meet there until 1927. Neither Sydney nor Melbourne was willing to allow the other to become the permanent capital city, so a compromise was drawn, just as in the United States. An Australian Capital Territory (A.C.T.) was chosen in a good location, and the capital was built there. In this compromise, Melbourne was the temporary capital until the new one could be built, but the was selected from land in New South Wales with the provision that it be placed at least 120 miles from Sydney. Then, the Australian Parliament sent out surveyors to find a good place for a new capital city -- and they chose well, considering how nice the climate is there. Also, Canberra was built about halfway between Sydney and Melbourne. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra.   
         
        After an international competition, two American architects & city planners, Mr. and Mrs. Walter Burleigh Griffin of Chicago, Illinois, were chosen to lay out the design of the new city. There is a large artificial lake in Canberra that was in the Griffin's plan, but the detailed designa wan not worked out and this lake completed until 1964. It is named Lake Burley Griffin. The full names of the two planners were Walter Burley Griffin (1876 - 1937), a graduate of the University of Illinois in Urbana-Chanpaign.
        Marion Mahony Griffin (1871 - 1961), a graduate of M.I.T.  
        These two architects both worked for the giant of American architecture, Frank Lloyd Wright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright
        in Oak Park, Illinois (in Chicagoland), and they decided to marry each other in 1911. They remained married to each other until Mr. Griffin's untimely death of an infection following gall-bladder surgery in India in 1937. 
        That was not a good time or place to have surgery done in 1937 -- especially elective abdominal surgery -- because there were not any antibiotics in 1937. In cases of emergency, abdominal surgery had been done successfully my earlier, such as back in the 1880s, when the Prince of Wales, the son of Queen Victoria, suffered from appendicitis. He recovered from his operation and he went on to become King Edward VII in 1901. He lived though 1910.     
         -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         
        For more on the whole story of Morant, see the film Breaker Morant, which starred an outstanding Aussie actor Bryan Brown (who is from Sydney, New South Wales). I just remember that he was the same actor who was in the award-winning film Gorillas in the Mist along with Sigourney Weaver (as Diane Fossey), as the boyfriend (Bill Campbell) who wanted her to move to Borneo with him while he photographed orangutans for National Geographic magazine. So, Mr. Brown had a period of time of making several films about Africa. 
         
        If you look at the history of films in the 1980s, you will see that Gorillas in the Mist came out within a few years of the film Out of Africa. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_in_film   
        Gorillas in the Mist made its premiere on September 23, 1988 (probably in Los Angeles), and in the following year, it received nominations for Academy Awards in these categories: 
        Best Actress in a Leading Role (Ms. Weaver) 
        Best Original Score (written by Maurice Jarre)
        Best Screenplay based on material from another medium 
        Best Film Editing 
        Best Sound
         
        I think that this one should have been nominated also for Best Picture and Best Cinematography (by John Seale)  -- the latter because I just adored the photography in this one from the first time that I saw it. I also think that Ms. Weaver should have won for Best Actress.
         
        In the Golden Globe Awards, Ms. Weaver won for  Best Performance by an Actress in a Motion Picture - Drama
        (in which she was tied with both Shirley MacLaine and Jodie Foster.) Mr. Jarre won the Golden Globe for Best Original Score - Motion Picture, and the film was nominated for Best Motion Picture - Drama. 
        Two writers for this film were also nominated by the Writers' Guild of America for Best Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium. 
         
        Out of Africa premiered on December 18, 1985 (probably in Los Angeles, also). This film is about the real life of the Danish writer Karen Blixen (played by Meryl Streep), mostly in Kenya during World War I and in the following decade, and it was much higher recognized by Hollywood and the critics. 

        Out of Africa won the Academy Awards for

        Best Picture
        Best Director (Sydney Pollack -- who passed away just recently)
        Best Adapted Screenplay
        Best Cinematography (David Watkin)
        Best Original Music Score (Sir John Barry -- who passed away just recently) 
        Best Art Direction
        Best Sound 
        I just adore the photography and the music for this film!
         
        Out of Africa was also nominated for Oscars for  
        Best Actress -- Meryl Streep -- who should have won it
        Best Supporting Actor -- Klaus Maria Brandauer
        Costume Design
        Film Editing
         
        Out of Africa also won Golden Globe Awards for
        Best Motion Picture - Drama
        Best Original Score - Sir John Barry
        Best Supporting Actor in a Motion Picture -- Klaus Maria Brandauer
        Also, it was nominated for Golden Globes for
        Best Director in a Motion Picture -- Sidney Pollack
        Best Actress in a Motion Picture -- Meryl Streep
        Best Screenplay for a Motion Picture -- Kurt Luedtke
         
        By the Los Angeles Film Critics Association:
        Best Actress -- won by Meryl Streep, so someone adored her performance in this film besides me
        Best Cinematography -- won by David Watkin
         
        By the Writers' Guild of America:
        Nominated: Best Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium -- Kurt Luedtke
         
        I did not like Klaus Maria Brandauer very much, but he played a very greasy character, and the authorities recognize how difficult this is to do well.
        Sorry, I am prejudiced, so I think that a Best Actor is someone
        like George C. Scott as Patton, and in Dr. Strangelove
        Clark Gable in It Happened One Night, Mutiny on the Bounty, and Gone with the Wind
        Spencer Tracy in Boy's Town, The Old Man and the Sea, and Inherit the Wind,
        Gary Cooper in Sergeant York and Pride of the Yankees
        Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca, The African Queen, and The Caine Mutiny,
        Henry Fonda in The Grapes of Wrath
        Gregory Peck 12 O'Clock High and MacArthur
        Walter Pidgeon in Forbidden Planet and Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
        Charlton Heston in Ben-Hur and The Planet of the Apes
        Burt Lancaster in From Here to Eternity and The Birdman of Alcatraz,
        Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady
        Sir Alec Guinness in The Bridge on the River Kwai, Star Wars, and The Empire Strikes Back
        Kirk Douglas in Spartacus
        Peter Sellers in Dr. Strangelove
        Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke
        William Holden in Stalag 17 and The Bridge on the River Kwai
        Robert Redford in The Sting and Out of Africa
        Peter Finch in Network ("I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"). Sadly, Mr. Finch died before receiving his Oscar.
        Dustin Hoffman in Kramer vs. Kramer, Tootsie, and Rain Man
        Robert Duvall in Tender Mercies
        F. Murray Abraham in Amadeus (in a sinister role as Saliari, but what the heck!) and in Gandhi
        Michael Douglas in Wall Street -- even though he played the ultimate in greasy characters, Gordon Gekko -- and in Fatal Attraction
        Tom Cruise in Born on the Fourth of July and Top Gun
        (Mr. Cruise was nominated for others, but I have never seen them.) 
        Liam Neeson in Schindler's List
        Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump, Saving Private Ryan, and Apollo 13
        Russell Crowe in A Beautiful Mind
        Joaquin Phoenix in Walk the Line
        Harrison Ford in American Graffiti, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, The Return of the Jedi, Working Girl, Witness, The Fugitive, Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, Presumed Innocent, and Air Force One,
        Mr. Ford has only ever been nominated for one Academy Award for a film: Witness -- but what the heck? I love him, anyway.
         
        Cheers, DAW     

        From: Lin Kerns <linkerns@...>
        Subject: Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"
        To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 7:26 AM

        The concept doesn't offend me, but the pairing of a pagan god with Yahweh is like mixing oil with water. If we think that the current display of religious manifestations are abundant in number, remember that at that point in time, there were even more wild sects practicing their own theologies. I'm sure that one of those sects "married" Ishtar to Yahweh in an attempt to keep one's goddess in the face of the growing number of the Israelite faithful, but having read most of the books considered for inclusion in the Bible, but rejected for one reason or another, I've yet to see anything that stated that within the roots of Christianity, God had a wife.

        The most absurd thing I've read is in the Book of Thomas wherein Jesus tells Mary that in order to gain heaven, she must become a man. lol Thank goodness the wisdom of the early church fathers prevailed.

        Lin

        On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:07 AM, Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@...> wrote:

        Oh I don't think it is all that stupid. Certainly it  offends current day practitioners of the faith. Allison

        From: Lin Kerns <linkerns@...>
        To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 10:45:15 PM

        Subject: Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"

        I have to agree with Kim. Ishtar was one of the high goddesses of Egypt and she was worshiped as far back as the Sumerians. Astarte is still worshiped in some witches' covens, and her name stretches even farther back in time. But the claim that she was the Israelite God's wife is so absurd.

        The reason that both statues shared the Temple is that this was a time before the Temple was *cleansed," and the pagans wanted a deity of theirs to be represented. Simple.

        Imagine two strangers sitting beside each other in church; association does not imply marriage. Also, what if their names appeared together in conversation or the Book of the Elect. Still sounds silly to imply something more than what's in your face.

        Stupid. Stupid. stupidstupidstupid.

        Lin

        On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@...> wrote:

        This is beyond stupid...... this was a heathen pagan god introduced into the temple as oft happened during the history of the First Temple.... no news bulletin here other than the vapid and vacuous assertions of this pseudo-intellectual trying desperately to come up with an angle in order to garner attention.... and succeeding!

        Kimmer

        On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:42 PM, <robert-blau@...> wrote:
        Make the story and its significance fairly clear . . .

        God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible -- Almost
        Discovery News [USA], Mar 18, 2011

        God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshiped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. In 1967, Raphael Patai was the first historian to mention that the ancient Israelites worshiped both Yahweh and Asherah. The theory has gained new prominence due to the research of Francesca Stavrakopoulou, who began her work at Oxford and [who] is now a senior lecturer in the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter. "After
        years of research specializing in the history and religion of Israel,
        however, I have come to a colorful and what could seem, to some, uncomfortable conclusion that God had a wife," she added. J. Edward Wright, president of both The Arizona Center for Judaic Studies and The Albright Institute for Archaeological Research, told Discovery News that he agrees several Hebrew inscriptions mention "Yahweh and his Asherah."
        "Asherah was not entirely edited out of the Bible by its male editors," he added.

        http://news.discovery.com/history/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.html 
      • Elena Vaccaro
        Allison, you have set off one of my pet peeves. The implication that humans (or hominins) of earlier times were much less sophisticated than we are today.
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 1, 2011
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          Allison, you have set off one of my pet peeves.

          The implication that humans (or hominins) of earlier times were much less sophisticated than we are today.

          Those individuals had the same size brains that we do now. Granted they did not have the technology we do today (there are pros and cons with this in my opinion), but that does not mean they did not have the same capacity to think and reason.

          Maintaining and fostering a culture as complex as the ancient Israelites had took considerable brain power considering the Torah was transmitted orally for generations before it was written down, like many other cultures (like the Celts, and other pre-writing civilizations).

          Even before these cultures existed, the hunter-gatherers that preceded them had to maintain not only their day to day existence, they conceived ways of worship that we do/have not discovered today.

          The hunting practices and weapons were very sophisticated in construction and innovations that matured over thousands of years from crude spears with the tips hardened in fire to elegant bows and arrows with beautiful flint and stone tips. And this is just the Paleolithic (Stone Age). Have you ever attempted to get close to a deer without spooking it? And not in an animal park either.

          Throw in the processing of the hides from those animals, gathering and processing of the other food items, not to mention remembering where they were in a very large area, without the luxury of writing down where they were and when they would be available for harvest is something that I respect. But these people had to do it if they wanted to survive.

          I for one would not want to attempt to live that type of life. 

          On the subject of 'God's Wife', while I believe in God, and think ALL sacred texts are inspired, I also think they came through a living breathing person. Those living, breathing people are subject to making errors in the reception. Then subsequent generations believe they have to edit those inspirations to fit the sacred text to reflect the way they believe.

          One of the books I have read on the subject is "The Sacred Executioner" by Hyam Maccoby.

          It is also possible there were hold overs from when Abram left Sumer and went into the desert.

          LIFE IS NOT MEASURED BY THE BREATH WE TAKE
          BUT BY THE MOMENTS THAT TAKE OUR BREATH AWAY

          >^,,^<

          Elena

          --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@...> wrote:

          From: Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@...>
          Subject: Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"
          To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 12:05 PM



          Nope don't agree with you there either. Really no one can prove anything here... not that God had a wife, not that there is even a god.. rather I just said that it  looks like there is evidence for the fact that a lot of people believed that God did have a wife once up on a time. And I  produced some articles that said the same thing. You are looking too much at theology...not enough at the actual facts. This is a group about history, right? not theology. It makes for a nice debate. Of course there is no mention of God's wife obviously in the Bible although some of the articles I sent refer to some oblique references. Also today in accepted Christian theology there is no place for God to have a wife. But  a longtime ago in a less sophisticated culture, it looks like God might have had a wife. And likely someone like Jeremiah reacted just like you did... possibly he was a relative? Geez. Quit confusing the theology of  today with the  simple ways of yesterday. Allison



        • Allison Loukanis
          Everyone is upset today. Ok , Elena. Allison ________________________________ From: Elena Vaccaro To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 1, 2011
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            Everyone is upset today. Ok , Elena. Allison


            From: Elena Vaccaro <earthandice@...>
            To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 12:36:48 PM
            Subject: Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"

             

            Allison, you have set off one of my pet peeves.

            The implication that humans (or hominins) of earlier times were much less sophisticated than we are today.

            Those individuals had the same size brains that we do now. Granted they did not have the technology we do today (there are pros and cons with this in my opinion), but that does not mean they did not have the same capacity to think and reason.

            Maintaining and fostering a culture as complex as the ancient Israelites had took considerable brain power considering the Torah was transmitted orally for generations before it was written down, like many other cultures (like the Celts, and other pre-writing civilizations).

            Even before these cultures existed, the hunter-gatherers that preceded them had to maintain not only their day to day existence, they conceived ways of worship that we do/have not discovered today.

            The hunting practices and weapons were very sophisticated in construction and innovations that matured over thousands of years from crude spears with the tips hardened in fire to elegant bows and arrows with beautiful flint and stone tips. And this is just the Paleolithic (Stone Age). Have you ever attempted to get close to a deer without spooking it? And not in an animal park either.

            Throw in the processing of the hides from those animals, gathering and processing of the other food items, not to mention remembering where they were in a very large area, without the luxury of writing down where they were and when they would be available for harvest is something that I respect. But these people had to do it if they wanted to survive.

            I for one would not want to attempt to live that type of life. 

            On the subject of 'God's Wife', while I believe in God, and think ALL sacred texts are inspired, I also think they came through a living breathing person. Those living, breathing people are subject to making errors in the reception. Then subsequent generations believe they have to edit those inspirations to fit the sacred text to reflect the way they believe.

            One of the books I have read on the subject is "The Sacred Executioner" by Hyam Maccoby.

            It is also possible there were hold overs from when Abram left Sumer and went into the desert.

            LIFE IS NOT MEASURED BY THE BREATH WE TAKE
            BUT BY THE MOMENTS THAT TAKE OUR BREATH AWAY

            >^,,^<

            Elena

            --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@...> wrote:

            From: Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@...>
            Subject: Re: [allthingshistory] More on "God's Wife"
            To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 12:05 PM



            Nope don't agree with you there either. Really no one can prove anything here... not that God had a wife, not that there is even a god.. rather I just said that it  looks like there is evidence for the fact that a lot of people believed that God did have a wife once up on a time. And I  produced some articles that said the same thing. You are looking too much at theology...not enough at the actual facts. This is a group about history, right? not theology. It makes for a nice debate. Of course there is no mention of God's wife obviously in the Bible although some of the articles I sent refer to some oblique references. Also today in accepted Christian theology there is no place for God to have a wife. But  a longtime ago in a less sophisticated culture, it looks like God might have had a wife. And likely someone like Jeremiah reacted just like you did... possibly he was a relative? Geez. Quit confusing the theology of  today with the  simple ways of yesterday. Allison



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