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Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Problems and benefits in Norway

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  • morten hansen
    Here are two links about Norway one outlining the benefits of the country s socialist, liberal policies  
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2010
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      Here are two links about Norway one outlining the benefits of the country's socialist, liberal policies
       
       
      And another stating some problems in the country which show that there are individuals with serious problems here as anywhere else
       
       
      I can agree with both these links, having worked for a while in a Street newspaper with drug addicts and criminals. Even though we are a largely secular country (thank god) we have a well respected state church which includes homosexual bishops and priests. We have have no silly debate about abstention because all sex is natural and healthy. Your main loyality should be to the person you sleep with, not to the church. You will find there is very little promiscuity in Norway of spite of this attitude. Norway considers sexuality to be a very private matter, so no newspaper will discuss the sexuality of celebrities or politicians, even if they are unfaithful. We have gay marriage too.  Nobody learns false creationism in school because it is not a science. We have a well liked christian party, but they are insignificant in terms of voters. They have liberal views on most issues also.
       
      Our most recent problems concern the Danish charicature drawings of the prophet Muhammed. While all newsapers in Denmark published them, only two did in Norway, sparking protest from our Islamic community. Then it emerged that members of that community supported the death penality for homosexuality by stoning. After that the security police labelled these Muslims a threat to national security and placed them under permament surveilance. There are now clear movements of anti-Islamic feeling in the country, as most people object to religious fundamentalism, whether American Republicanism or Islamic.

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    • morten hansen
      Well, now i have been very political for a while, and perhaps some disagree with me strongly. So I thought I might reccommend a very good Christian writer who
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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        Well, now i have been very political for a while, and perhaps some disagree with me strongly. So I thought I might reccommend a very good Christian writer who writes well about the problems of belief, and who is able to include some science in her books in a correct manner as well: Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek . That is the only religious book that I have ever enjoyed, and i think you will like it. She is a very good writer who won the Pulitzer Prize.
         
        Also, I am having some strange problems with some posts coming later than others. One of my post also came twice. I have made quite a few recently, so now i will not make any until you have responded to mine or changed the topic to something historical. Thanks for baring with me.

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      • Kim Noyes
        Morten, No active members of this group are on moderation. However, Yahell has had a wretched last 36 hours or so of very uneven and spotty posting. Der
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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          Morten,

          No active members of this group are on moderation.
          However, Yahell has had a wretched last 36 hours or so of very uneven and spotty posting.

          Der Kimster

          On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:13 AM, morten hansen <grusvei@...> wrote:
           

          Well, now i have been very political for a while, and perhaps some disagree with me strongly. So I thought I might reccommend a very good Christian writer who writes well about the problems of belief, and who is able to include some science in her books in a correct manner as well: Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek . That is the only religious book that I have ever enjoyed, and i think you will like it. She is a very good writer who won the Pulitzer Prize.
           
          Also, I am having some strange problems with some posts coming later than others. One of my post also came twice. I have made quite a few recently, so now i will not make any until you have responded to mine or changed the topic to something historical. Thanks for baring with me.

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        • Allison Loukanis
          lol... ok. Allison ... From: morten hansen Subject: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom To:
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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            lol... ok. Allison

            --- On Mon, 3/1/10, morten hansen <grusvei@...> wrote:

            From: morten hansen <grusvei@...>
            Subject: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
            To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 2:37 AM

             
            What Do You Mean? I Will Not Forget In The Future Unless My Keyboard Acts Up On Me:)

            --- Den man 2010-03-01 skrev Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@ att.net>:

            Fra: Allison Loukanis <allison.m.loukanis@ att.net>
            Emne: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
            Til: allthingshistory@ yahoogroups. com
            Dato: Mandag 1. mars 2010 02.37

             
            Have you forgotten how to capitalize? One tenet of English is that all proper names be capitalized. So Norwegians and Swedes, Angles and Saxons get the same treatment as Jews,Christians and Muslims...btw, good article. A lot of truth in it. Allison

            --- On Sun, 2/28/10, morten hansen <grusvei@yahoo. no> wrote:

            From: morten hansen <grusvei@yahoo. no>
            Subject: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
            To: allthingshistory@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 11:12 PM

             
            I think there is much truth in that article. When it comes to humanitarian aid, all good forces must pull together. But is important that christians, muslims and jews don't spread their prejudices or use them as a precondition for aid. Educational programs should not be religious, and religious observance should not be a precondition for getting aid. Religion should be a personal decision based on a free choice. If it is, i have nothing against it. This nonsense Bush-era about not handing out contraceptives and promoting abstinence in stead should just plain stop because that strategy doesn't suit the third world with aids, rape and violence towards women being common.

            --- Den søn 2010-02-28 skrev Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>:

            Fra: Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>
            Emne: [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
            Til: "AllThingsHistory" <allthingshistory@ yahoogroups. com>
            Dato: Søndag 28. februar 2010 21.37

             

            Learning From the Sin of Sodom

            By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
            Published: February 27, 2010
            For most of the last century, save-the-worlders were primarily Democrats and liberals. In contrast, many Republicans and religious conservatives denounced government aid programs, with Senator Jesse Helms calling them “money down a rat hole.”

            Over the last decade, however, that divide has dissolved, in ways that many Americans haven’t noticed or appreciated. Evangelicals have become the new internationalists, pushing successfully for new American programs against AIDS and malaria, and doing superb work on issues from human trafficking in India to mass rape in Congo.
            A pop quiz: What’s the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization?
            It’s not Save the Children, and it’s not CARE — both terrific secular organizations. Rather, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian organization (with strong evangelical roots) whose budget has roughly tripled over the last decade.
            World Vision now has 40,000 staff members in nearly 100 countries. That’s more staff members than CARE, Save the Children and the worldwide operations of the United States Agency for International Development — combined.
            A growing number of conservative Christians are explicitly and self-critically acknowledging that to be “pro-life” must mean more than opposing abortion. The head of World Vision in the United States, Richard Stearns, begins his fascinating book, “The Hole in Our Gospel,” with an account of a visit a decade ago to Uganda, where he met a 13-year-old AIDS orphan who was raising his younger brothers by himself.
            “What sickened me most was this question: where was the Church?” he writes. “Where were the followers of Jesus Christ in the midst of perhaps the greatest humanitarian crisis of our time? Surely the Church should have been caring for these ‘orphans and widows in their distress.’ (James 1:27). Shouldn’t the pulpits across America have flamed with exhortations to rush to the front lines of compassion?
            “How have we missed it so tragically, when even rock stars and Hollywood actors seem to understand?”
            Mr. Stearns argues that evangelicals were often so focused on sexual morality and a personal relationship with God that they ignored the needy. He writes laceratingly about “a Church that had the wealth to build great sanctuaries but lacked the will to build schools, hospitals, and clinics.”
            In one striking passage, Mr. Stearns quotes the prophet Ezekiel as saying that the great sin of the people of Sodom wasn’t so much that they were promiscuous or gay as that they were “arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” (Ezekiel 16:49.)
            Hmm. Imagine if sodomy laws could be used to punish the stingy, unconcerned rich!
            The American view of evangelicals is still shaped by preening television blowhards and hypocrites who seem obsessed with gays and fetuses. One study cited in the book found that even among churchgoers ages 16 to 29, the descriptions most associated with Christianity were “antihomosexual,” “judgmental,” “too involved in politics,” and “hypocritical.”
            Some conservative Christians reinforced the worst view of themselves by inspiring Ugandan homophobes who backed a bill that would punish gays with life imprisonment or execution. Ditto for the Vatican, whose hostility to condoms contributes to the AIDS epidemic. But there’s more to the picture: I’ve also seen many Catholic nuns and priests heroically caring for AIDS patients — even quietly handing out condoms.
            One of the most inspiring figures I’ve met while covering Congo’s brutal civil war is a determined Polish nun in the terrifying hinterland, feeding orphans, standing up to drunken soldiers and comforting survivors — all in a war zone. I came back and decided: I want to grow up and become a Polish nun.
            Some Americans assume that religious groups offer aid to entice converts. That’s incorrect. Today, groups like World Vision ban the use of aid to lure anyone into a religious conversation.
            Some liberals are pushing to end the longtime practice (it’s a myth that this started with President George W. Bush) of channeling American aid through faith-based organizations. That change would be a catastrophe. In Haiti, more than half of food distributions go through religious groups like World Vision that have indispensable networks on the ground. We mustn’t make Haitians the casualties in our cultural wars.
            A root problem is a liberal snobbishness toward faith-based organizations. Those doing the sneering typically give away far less money than evangelicals. They’re also less likely to spend vacations volunteering at, say, a school or a clinic in Rwanda.
            If secular liberals can give up some of their snootiness, and if evangelicals can retire some of their sanctimony, then we all might succeed together in making greater progress against common enemies of humanity, like illiteracy, human trafficking and maternal mortality.

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          • Allison Loukanis
            Oh and unplanned pregnancies don t happen in Norway? You will not not not gang up on a teen age unwed mom in order to further your attacks on whatever it is
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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              Oh and unplanned pregnancies don't happen in Norway? You will not not not gang up on a teen age unwed mom in order to further your attacks on whatever it is you don't like about US policies in Africa, or elswhere. Shit happens and it is not ok to make snide remarks about any young unwed mom. Not while I am on this list. Is that clear?  I don't get mad that often but that just pisses me off. Allison

              --- On Mon, 3/1/10, morten hansen <grusvei@...> wrote:

              From: morten hansen <grusvei@...>
              Subject: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
              To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 4:22 AM

               
              You talk as if the United states was the biuggest donor in the world. In fact Norway gives much more per capita than you do. In fact so does all of europe. You only give money to Israel so they can buy arms http://www.cgdev. org/section/ initiatives/ _active/cdi/ 
              The bush policies of promoting abstinence at teh expense of contraceptives is positively harmful in all countries where it takes place, especially in the US where the Palins get pregnant.


              --- Den man 2010-03-01 skrev Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>:

              Fra: Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>
              Emne: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
              Til: allthingshistory@ yahoogroups. com
              Dato: Mandag 1. mars 2010 04.40

               
              Morten,

              You wear your biases on your sleeve and you oft allow them to make you say things that hurt your credibility.

              The article pointed out the non-evangelizing that comes with the good deeds done.

              You also make a typical European Liberal error in having an anti-intellectual and factually-challenge d hang-up about Dubya.

              Regarding abstinence and no contraceptives. ...the Catholic Church is already generations into promoting those things in the Third World.

              America has the right to promote a particular family planning policy if we are spending our own money.

              If you Northern Europeans don't like it then quit yer bitchin' and start spending as money helping in the Third World as we do.

              Der Kimster


              On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 3:12 PM, morten hansen <grusvei@yahoo. no> wrote:
               
              I think there is much truth in that article. When it comes to humanitarian aid, all good forces must pull together. But is important that christians, muslims and jews don't spread their prejudices or use them as a precondition for aid. Educational programs should not be religious, and religious observance should not be a precondition for getting aid. Religion should be a personal decision based on a free choice. If it is, i have nothing against it. This nonsense Bush-era about not handing out contraceptives and promoting abstinence in stead should just plain stop because that strategy doesn't suit the third world with aids, rape and violence towards women being common.

              --- Den søn 2010-02-28 skrev Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>:

              Fra: Kim Noyes <kimnoyes@gmail. com>
              Emne: [allthingshistory] Learning From the Sin of Sodom
              Til: "AllThingsHistory" <allthingshistory@ yahoogroups. com>
              Dato: Søndag 28. februar 2010 21.37

               

              Learning From the Sin of Sodom

              By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
              Published: February 27, 2010
              For most of the last century, save-the-worlders were primarily Democrats and liberals. In contrast, many Republicans and religious conservatives denounced government aid programs, with Senator Jesse Helms calling them “money down a rat hole.”

              Over the last decade, however, that divide has dissolved, in ways that many Americans haven’t noticed or appreciated. Evangelicals have become the new internationalists, pushing successfully for new American programs against AIDS and malaria, and doing superb work on issues from human trafficking in India to mass rape in Congo.
              A pop quiz: What’s the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization?
              It’s not Save the Children, and it’s not CARE — both terrific secular organizations. Rather, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian organization (with strong evangelical roots) whose budget has roughly tripled over the last decade.
              World Vision now has 40,000 staff members in nearly 100 countries. That’s more staff members than CARE, Save the Children and the worldwide operations of the United States Agency for International Development — combined.
              A growing number of conservative Christians are explicitly and self-critically acknowledging that to be “pro-life” must mean more than opposing abortion. The head of World Vision in the United States, Richard Stearns, begins his fascinating book, “The Hole in Our Gospel,” with an account of a visit a decade ago to Uganda, where he met a 13-year-old AIDS orphan who was raising his younger brothers by himself.
              “What sickened me most was this question: where was the Church?” he writes. “Where were the followers of Jesus Christ in the midst of perhaps the greatest humanitarian crisis of our time? Surely the Church should have been caring for these ‘orphans and widows in their distress.’ (James 1:27). Shouldn’t the pulpits across America have flamed with exhortations to rush to the front lines of compassion?
              “How have we missed it so tragically, when even rock stars and Hollywood actors seem to understand?”
              Mr. Stearns argues that evangelicals were often so focused on sexual morality and a personal relationship with God that they ignored the needy. He writes laceratingly about “a Church that had the wealth to build great sanctuaries but lacked the will to build schools, hospitals, and clinics.”
              In one striking passage, Mr. Stearns quotes the prophet Ezekiel as saying that the great sin of the people of Sodom wasn’t so much that they were promiscuous or gay as that they were “arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” (Ezekiel 16:49.)
              Hmm. Imagine if sodomy laws could be used to punish the stingy, unconcerned rich!
              The American view of evangelicals is still shaped by preening television blowhards and hypocrites who seem obsessed with gays and fetuses. One study cited in the book found that even among churchgoers ages 16 to 29, the descriptions most associated with Christianity were “antihomosexual,” “judgmental,” “too involved in politics,” and “hypocritical.”
              Some conservative Christians reinforced the worst view of themselves by inspiring Ugandan homophobes who backed a bill that would punish gays with life imprisonment or execution. Ditto for the Vatican, whose hostility to condoms contributes to the AIDS epidemic. But there’s more to the picture: I’ve also seen many Catholic nuns and priests heroically caring for AIDS patients — even quietly handing out condoms.
              One of the most inspiring figures I’ve met while covering Congo’s brutal civil war is a determined Polish nun in the terrifying hinterland, feeding orphans, standing up to drunken soldiers and comforting survivors — all in a war zone. I came back and decided: I want to grow up and become a Polish nun.
              Some Americans assume that religious groups offer aid to entice converts. That’s incorrect. Today, groups like World Vision ban the use of aid to lure anyone into a religious conversation.
              Some liberals are pushing to end the longtime practice (it’s a myth that this started with President George W. Bush) of channeling American aid through faith-based organizations. That change would be a catastrophe. In Haiti, more than half of food distributions go through religious groups like World Vision that have indispensable networks on the ground. We mustn’t make Haitians the casualties in our cultural wars.
              A root problem is a liberal snobbishness toward faith-based organizations. Those doing the sneering typically give away far less money than evangelicals. They’re also less likely to spend vacations volunteering at, say, a school or a clinic in Rwanda.
              If secular liberals can give up some of their snootiness, and if evangelicals can retire some of their sanctimony, then we all might succeed together in making greater progress against common enemies of humanity, like illiteracy, human trafficking and maternal mortality.

              --
              Read our blog at http://eclecticarca nia.blogspot. com/

              Visit me on Facebook at http://www.facebook .com/derkimster


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            • Allison Loukanis
              It sounds  like Norway has made some good decisions and most every one is doing well. Even Mr. Heroin has no need of robbing someone to pay for his habit.
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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                It sounds  like Norway has made some good decisions and most every one is doing well. Even Mr. Heroin has no need of robbing someone to pay for his habit. good for you. Of course, your country only has what... 4.5 million people and it is pretty homogenous. No difficult multi racial historical agendas to recover from, and very few minorities to cause trouble or cost your country money while being there illegally and the ones that are there are under police surveillance. Fundamentalism is not an easy thing to deal with I agree. All in all though I would have to say you are lucky. Allison

                --- On Mon, 3/1/10, morten hansen <grusvei@...> wrote:

                From: morten hansen <grusvei@...>
                Subject: Re: Vedr. [allthingshistory] Problems and benefits in Norway
                To: allthingshistory@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 6:35 AM

                 
                Here are two links about Norway one outlining the benefits of the country's socialist, liberal policies
                 
                 
                And another stating some problems in the country which show that there are individuals with serious problems here as anywhere else
                 
                 
                I can agree with both these links, having worked for a while in a Street newspaper with drug addicts and criminals. Even though we are a largely secular country (thank god) we have a well respected state church which includes homosexual bishops and priests. We have have no silly debate about abstention because all sex is natural and healthy. Your main loyality should be to the person you sleep with, not to the church. You will find there is very little promiscuity in Norway of spite of this attitude. Norway considers sexuality to be a very private matter, so no newspaper will discuss the sexuality of celebrities or politicians, even if they are unfaithful. We have gay marriage too.  Nobody learns false creationism in school because it is not a science. We have a well liked christian party, but they are insignificant in terms of voters. They have liberal views on most issues also.
                 
                Our most recent problems concern the Danish charicature drawings of the prophet Muhammed. While all newsapers in Denmark published them, only two did in Norway, sparking protest from our Islamic community. Then it emerged that members of that community supported the death penality for homosexuality by stoning. After that the security police labelled these Muslims a threat to national security and placed them under permament surveilance. There are now clear movements of anti-Islamic feeling in the country, as most people object to religious fundamentalism, whether American Republicanism or Islamic.

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              • Lin Kerns
                A state church? What religion is it? Obviously not Catholic... so what would I do in your country if I wanted to go to my Church? And on a more personal note,
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
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                  A state church? What religion is it? Obviously not Catholic... so what would I do in your country if I wanted to go to my Church? And on a more personal note, my own Church teaches that the relationship between our mates and ourselves is a triangle, with God at one of those points. It's not an either or situation. I apologize for getting metaphysical here, but I had to throw this in the mix. And btw, I'm also an advocate for married priests, so don't go getting your dander up about that. :) 

                  And speaking of state schools in the US, creationism is not taught--only evolution. It is within the private sector, the fundamentalist church schools, where creationism is taught. When I was a practicing English prof. I would have some students who where adamant about their position on creationism, BUT it was not my place to change them. My responsibility to them was to open their minds and present alternative views so that they would be more tolerant of others... see things from a different perspective... not pass judgment on others for their belief system or their lifestyle or their color of skin. Without an alternative, how can you make a real choice for yourself? And my friend, there doesn't seem to be much of a choice for your preference in religion or education.

                  Thanks, but I'll take the US any day, warts and all. 4.5 million people constitutes a mob--not a melting pot of different cultures and attitudes and beliefs. Actually, despite our faults, that diversity is quite beautiful and inspiring.


                  Lin


                  On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:35 AM, morten hansen <grusvei@...> wrote:
                   

                  Here are two links about Norway one outlining the benefits of the country's socialist, liberal policies
                   
                   
                  And another stating some problems in the country which show that there are individuals with serious problems here as anywhere else
                   
                   
                  I can agree with both these links, having worked for a while in a Street newspaper with drug addicts and criminals. Even though we are a largely secular country (thank god) we have a well respected state church which includes homosexual bishops and priests. We have have no silly debate about abstention because all sex is natural and healthy. Your main loyality should be to the person you sleep with, not to the church. You will find there is very little promiscuity in Norway of spite of this attitude. Norway considers sexuality to be a very private matter, so no newspaper will discuss the sexuality of celebrities or politicians, even if they are unfaithful. We have gay marriage too.  Nobody learns false creationism in school because it is not a science. We have a well liked christian party, but they are insignificant in terms of voters. They have liberal views on most issues also.
                   
                  Our most recent problems concern the Danish charicature drawings of the prophet Muhammed. While all newsapers in Denmark published them, only two did in Norway, sparking protest from our Islamic community. Then it emerged that members of that community supported the death penality for homosexuality by stoning. After that the security police labelled these Muslims a threat to national security and placed them under permament surveilance. There are now clear movements of anti-Islamic feeling in the country, as most people object to religious fundamentalism, whether American Republicanism or Islamic.

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