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Women giving Guerreros

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  • Luis Charyck Mascorro
    Bendiciones, I had a question I have been pondering, Can women give Guerreros? My padrino says no but my mother s madrina says yes Que una Santera Mayor los
    Message 1 of 33 , Dec 1, 2005
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      Bendiciones,

      I had a question I have been pondering, Can women give Guerreros? My
      padrino says no but my mother's madrina says yes "Que una Santera
      Mayor los puede dar" well I am a bit confused, I belive what my
      padrinos says because after all he is my padrino but I value my moms
      madrina's opinion as well, seeing that she has 30+ years in Santo,
      well I guess I am asksing for everyones opinion on this matter,Hope to
      hear from you all soon.
    • Oyawole
      Ase Jorge: I know someone whom has that same odu in Ifa -- she is an Iyanifa and a great one!!! Sanni ... concerns me, ... consecrated in ... de ... to ... and
      Message 33 of 33 , Dec 21, 2005
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        Ase Jorge:

        I know someone whom has that same odu in Ifa -- she is an Iyanifa
        and a great one!!!

        Sanni

        --- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Rivera <nkisi@m...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Ache.
        > This is a topic that will go on being debated for some time. I've
        > brought it up in other groups as well. It is something that
        concerns me,
        > as it affects my madrina/yaya. She is a brilliant woman
        consecrated in
        > the highest forms of Ocha and Palo. As it turns out, she has letra
        de
        > Ifa (Ejiogbe). But she cannot pass on to Ifa without crossing over
        to
        > the African Ifa, something she does not appear to want to do.
        > This pains me because I know it gnaws at her.
        > I wonder if this may be an issue of the differences between female
        and
        > male Ache.
        > The Orisha definitely have genders, so maybe there is an issue
        with what
        > the genders can do because of these differences in Ache.
        Differences
        > that manifest in normal reality and determine who can bring life
        into
        > the world and who cannot...
        > Bogbo to Ache
        >
        > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 1:32am, James Lopez wrote:
        > > Mazzi,
        > >
        > > with all due respect politics and spirituality aren't the same.
        let me
        > > tell a real life situation. I know a women who went to Argentina
        and
        > > received her warriors from a Santera, she didn't say anything to
        my
        > > Yubona and shortly after her life started to turn to crap, when
        she
        > > went to get a reading it came out that she had warriors that
        wasn't
        > > done correctly, which my Yubona couldn't figure out because as
        far as
        > > he knew she didn't have any, he asking her,she said no but
        Eleggua kept
        > > insisting she did, turns out she finally admitted what she did
        and what
        > > ended up happening is she ended up having to get the Santera's
        hand
        > > removed from the warriors, to the Santera's credit the Eleggua
        was the
        > > right path that walked with the lady and the ingredient's were
        all
        > > correct, including Oggun y ochosi and Osun but it had to be
        rewashed by
        > > a Santero and Feed by a Santero. So now what what do we do call
        Eleggua
        > > a sexist because he's not fitting in with the current beliefs
        system of
        > > western thought?? I don't know, Personally, I wouldn't. To top
        it off
        > > my Yubona was very kind to the women he didn't yell at her or
        even get
        > > cross with her. He said he already understood that these things
        are
        > > happening more and more will continue to happen but I guess some
        of us
        > > will have to learn the hard way but does that mean I am going to
        tell
        > > someone in Candomble , African Ifa or another system that what
        they are
        > > doing is wrong?? No because that's not my right but this is
        > > Santeria/Lukumi and in our tradition for one reason or another
        > > these Orisha's want to be given and prepared by men. Just my
        two.cents.
        > >
        > > P.S. Thanks Mazzi for sharing your thoughts and trying to
        understand.
        > >
        > > Mazzi <amaya_00_00@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >> WOW! i definatly made a mistake, it is Iyanifa, i got
        > >> the memo, now, my question is that women years ago
        > >> couldnt vote because people they loved and trusted
        > >> told them couldnt, but when someone got enough guts to
        > >> question why, with a lot of work things were changed,
        > >> so , should we not vote?
        > >
        > >> --- cholawengue <cholawengue@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>> Hmm...I had the same thought...never heard of
        > >>> iyalawo either, I will
        > >>> pose the question to an Iyanifa I know of though.
        > >>>
        > >>> This is why we hear alot...'Dont ask what u already
        > >>> know' ie:  If you
        > >>> know you are not supposed to do something, dont ask
        > >>> if you can'.  For
        > >>> example..I know that Ellegua doesnt eat pigeon..if I
        > >>> got to my
        > >>> Ellegua and ask him if he wants a pigeon and I get
        > >>> an affirmative
        > >>> answer, when the stuff hits the fan, do I get angry
        > >>> with Ellegua for
        > >>> asking him something I already knew I shouldnt do?
        > >>> Or, do I take the
        > >>> heat for my own stupidity?
        > >>>
        > >>> Asking questions as to why things are is great!  I
        > >>> enourage it all
        > >>> the time, but you will not always get the answers
        > >>> you are seeking as
        > >>> an unitiated person, or in an open forum.
        > >>>
        > >>> ~CholaWengue
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>> --- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, blakdaisy
        > >>> <blakdaisy@y...>
        > >>> wrote:
        > >>> >
        > >>> > I heard of iyanifas...but not iyalawos.....
        > >>> >
        > >>> > Mazzi <amaya_00_00@y...> wrote:  Let me explain, i
        > >>> had asked an
        > >>> Iyalawo from Nigeria
        > >>> > this question and her response was that if
        > >>> Orunmilla
        > >>> > says to do it then you do it, she also said that
        > >>> there
        > >>> > are not a lot of Iyalawo's in Nigeria, that this
        > >>> is
        > >>> > not the norm, however there is always an
        > >>> exception.
        > >>> > Orunmilla never lies and would never tell anyone
        > >>> to do
        > >>> > the wrong thing, i personally just listen to
        > >>> Orunmilla
        > >>> > and dont get caught up in what we percieve is the
        > >>> > "right way". But this is my question to the group,
        > >>> > please dont take Offense, but i am just curious,
        > >>> why
        > >>> > is it that a male can be an Oshun, and work with
        > >>> > Oshun's infinate female energy, and a woman can be
        > >>> an
        > >>> > Ogun, so on and so forth..., and women cant do
        > >>> certian
        > >>> > things with male energies. THIS IS NOT TO
        > >>> CHALLANGE
        > >>> > ANYONES VIEWS OF THE WAY THE RELIGION SHOULD BE
        > >>> > PRACTICED, THESE ARE THINGS WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT
        > >>> TO
        > >>> > UNDERSTAND WHY. THERE IS NO REASON TO BE OFFENDED
        > >>> IF
        > >>> > SOMEONE ASKS A QUESTION. im just the type of
        > >>> person
        > >>> > that likes to know why. thank you.
        > >>> >
        > >>> > --- Lee Jonathan <earthwitch21@y...> wrote:
        > >>> >
        > >>> > > Ashe to that. I agree with you 100%!!!
        > >>> > >   
        > >>> > >   
        > >>> > >    Afimayi Galarraga <afima17@y...> wrote:
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > >   Greetings,
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > I find myself amaze as to how things continue to
        > >>> > > change over the years, and over the decades.
        > >>> > > Now-a-days, there are so many things that,
        > >>> > > supposedly,
        > >>> > > women can do; yet these things were unheard of
        > >>> years
        > >>> > > ago.
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > I have to agree with Italero, because this is
        > >>> what I
        > >>> > > know to be true. Women do not give guerreros,
        > >>> under
        > >>> > > any circumstance. I can deal with the
        > >>> everlasting
        > >>> > > debate, over whether it should be given by a
        > >>> Santero
        > >>> > > or a Babalawo, but I can not deal with having to
        > >>> > > accept people saying now-a-days that women can
        > >>> give
        > >>> > > warrirors.
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > Question. If all of a sudden women can give
        > >>> > > warriors/guerreros, then why didn't any of our
        > >>> well
        > >>> > > known ancestors did it? Good well known, and
        > >>> > > respected
        > >>> > > Santeras like: Susana Cantero, Munda Chango-bi,
        > >>> Ayai
        > >>> > > Latuan, Aurora Alamar Oba-Tola, Delia Omi-Toqui,
        > >>> > > Alejandrina Calderon, Fermina Gomez, Valeria Oba
        > >>> > > Dei,
        > >>> > > Rita Maria Valiente, Guillermina Aguirre,
        > >>> Asuncion
        > >>> > > Bruselo, Chnita Estevez, Margo SanLazaro, Concha
        > >>> > > Mokuo-Ollu, Caridad Vive lejos, Carmen Peñalver,
        > >>> and
        > >>> > > many others!
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > I had the opportunity to personally know a few
        > >>> of
        > >>> > > these great ladies, and presently know
        > >>> godchildren
        > >>> > > to
        > >>> > > these wonderful Olorisas, and they all can
        > >>> affirm
        > >>> > > that
        > >>> > > their Madrinas never gave guerreros/warriors nor
        > >>> > > would
        > >>> > > have supported such activity.
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > But now all of a sudden, women can give
        > >>> warriors.
        > >>> > > With
        > >>> > > no offense to anyone here in this forum, this is
        > >>> why
        > >>> > > I
        > >>> > > say our religion keeps on fading away. We
        > >>> > > continously
        > >>> > > twist things around over the years, to make it
        > >>> fit
        > >>> > > our
        > >>> > > beliefs and satisfy what we desire, without
        > >>> taking
        > >>> > > into account we are modifying what was left for
        > >>> us
        > >>> > > to
        > >>> > > practice in the same manner in which it was
        > >>> passed
        > >>> > > down. Where did it all change and who created
        > >>> all
        > >>> > > these complexities, is far beyond my knowledge;
        > >>> but
        > >>> > > please, lets get a grip of ourselves here.
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > Respectfully,
        > >>> > > Afimaye Galarraga
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > --- Silvy <s_frak@y...> wrote:
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > > This is actually the first time that I've
        > >>> heard of
        > >>> > > > women being able to
        > >>> > > > give the warriors.  I've heard of women
        > >>> reading
        > >>> > > the
        > >>> > > > shells after they
        > >>> > > > go through menopause and some houses allow the
        > >>> > > > shells to women even
        > >>> > > > before but the warriors this is a new one to
        > >>> me. 
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > > Silvy
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > > --- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com,
        > >>> > > > yemayasito@a... wrote:
        > >>> > > > >
        > >>> > > > > Women cant give guerreros period.....isn't
        > >>> > > > shouldn't be a question
        > >>> > > > at 
        > >>> > > > > all....Let the male santeros deal with that
        > >>> > > > energy...
        > >>> > > > > 
        > >>> > > > > Italero
        > >>> > > > >
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > > >
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > >                  
        > >>> > > ---------------------------------
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