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Re: [albanach] Proper Address

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  • Sharon L. Krossa
    ... While normally this is true of titles, in this case the elder Bruce passed the Earldom on to his son (the future king) *before* the elder Bruce died.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 28, 2000
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      At 5:55 PM -0700 6/28/2000, Jennifer Smith wrote:
      >One thing you will have to be careful of, is the dates. Robert the
      >Bruce (later Robert I) was actually the son of Robert the Bruce,
      >claimant to the throne, and I believe, Earl of Carrick. Robert the
      >Younger, I think, would have inherited the title, but not until his
      >father died(?).

      While normally this is true of titles, in this case the elder Bruce
      passed the Earldom on to his son (the future king) *before* the elder
      Bruce died. Details, including when exactly this was done, would be
      in Barrow's _Robert Bruce ..._

      > Or maybe he held it in his own right. I'm sorry I
      >can't answer the details for you, but I'm on a deadline with my book!
      >But you'll probably want to check out those dates. (Lord would still be
      >appropriate, however, even if he had not yet inherited the earldom.)
      >
      >I also think he was commonly known as "The Bruce" until taking up titles
      >as sovereign (or soon to be), which was common among leaders of the clan
      >and their eldest sons.

      Actually, in Barbour's Bruce, the "the X" usage appears to be common
      for heads and other prominent members of *non-Gaelic* families (such
      as Bruce, Balliol, etc.). Keep in mind that circa 1300 "clans" were a
      feature specifically of Gaelic culture and not all Scots were Gaels.
      (Another thing to keep in mind is that Barbour wrote his "Bruce" in
      1375 or so -- so it may be that the usage "the X" wasn't even in use
      during the lifetime of King Robert I but came in later. But we have
      no easy way to determine this either way. Barbour's Bruce is the
      closest we can get to Scots language practice and usage in earlier
      periods.)

      Sharon
      ska Eafric
      Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
      Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
      The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
      Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
    • Julie Stackable
      At least by the 15th century, the courtesy title for the heir of a Baron is Master . Master is a good all purpose courtesy title for just about anything
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 17, 2010
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        At least by the 15th century, the courtesy title for the heir of a Baron is 'Master'. Master is a good all purpose courtesy title for just about anything anyway. The general way it was used to indicate the heir is Master of [main lands to be inherited] which in the case of the Moray family was I think Petty, so Andrew de Moray might be known as the Master of Petty. You might check the Scots genealogies though to see if the younger Andrew was invested with any of the properties before his father's death, he might have been for such things as a wedding present, etc. The Morays had a lot of property and he might have been Lord of such and such in his own right because of property that had been given to him in his father's lifetime, therefore he would be more properly known as Lord Andrew of whatever.....
         
        N.B. Probably doesn't matter as regards your novel, but Moray is more generally pronounced more like 'Murray' is today...
         
        Hope that helps....
         
        Julie Stackable/Margaret Hepburn

        --- On Fri, 12/17/10, albanach@yahoogroups.com <albanach@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        From: albanach@yahoogroups.com <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [albanach] Digest Number 1203
        To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 3:19 AM








        Albanach

        Messages In This Digest (1 Message)


        1.
        Proper address? From: Diana Cosby
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        1.

        Proper address?
        Posted by: "Diana Cosby" diana@...   vkmyth
        Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:54 pm (PST)


        My setting of my current novel is Scotland, September 1297. My hero, a
        baron, is speaking with Andrew de Moray. Andrew had not acquired his
        father's title. How would my hero, a noble, address Andrew de Moray?
        Any insight is greatly appreciated.
        Sincerely,

        Diana Cosby, International Best-Selling Author
        www.dianacosby. com <http://www.dianacos by.com/>
        His Captive-Alexander MacGruder/ His Woman-Duncan MacGruder/ His
        Conquest-Seathan MacGruder
        His Destiny - Oct 2011

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      • Diana Cosby
        ... ~Thank you so much for explaining, Julie. I m siding with you that Lord Andrew is proper for my story. Thanks a ton. Hope your holidays are fabulous!
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 18, 2010
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          Julie Stackable wrote:

          >At least by the 15th century, the courtesy title for the heir of a Baron is 'Master'. Master is a good all purpose courtesy title for just about anything anyway. The general way it was used to indicate the heir is Master of [main lands to be inherited] which in the case of the Moray family was I think Petty, so Andrew de Moray might be known as the Master of Petty. You might check the Scots genealogies though to see if the younger Andrew was invested with any of the properties before his father's death, he might have been for such things as a wedding present, etc. The Morays had a lot of property and he might have been Lord of such and such in his own right because of property that had been given to him in his father's lifetime, therefore he would be more properly known as Lord Andrew of whatever.....
          >
          >
          ~Thank you so much for explaining, Julie. I'm siding with you that Lord
          Andrew is proper for my story. Thanks a ton. Hope your holidays are
          fabulous! :)

          Diana Cosby, International Best-Selling Author
          www.dianacosby.com <http://www.dianacosby.com/>
          His Captive-Alexander MacGruder/ His Woman-Duncan MacGruder/ His
          Conquest-Seathan MacGruder
          His Destiny - Oct 2011


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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