Re: [albanach] Picts, Britons, and Basques (was: the Dean of Lismore)
- --- "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
> At 2:23 PM -0800 3/19/2000, iain maciain wrote:i've read about these oghams in secondary
> >it's only partially identified and the opinion is
> >it is not indoeuropean because it shows no features
> >an indoeuropean language, and shows some features
> of a
> >basque language, or a language related to basque.
> >there are several iberian languages that were not
> >indoeuropean and i've never seen a comparison
> >them to determine if they are all basque related.
> What particular ogam inscriptions are we talking
> about here?
sources--but in a number of them, including j.p.
mallory's "the indoeuropeans" a survey of indoeuropean
culture, and majia gimbutus(sp?) before the
indoeuropeans tome, and in several others i would have
to go to the library stacks to look up. i fact i've
read some reference to this in every pre history of
the celtic regions that i've read , if it has been
> >i had a gealic teacher who said there were some nonyeah but the ogham inscriptions are much older and
> >indoeuropean words in a couple of scotts gaelic
> >dialects as well. again the guess was a basque
> >language, but i didn't read that.
> Well, we need to be careful about making too much of
> this. For
> example, modern English has many, many
> non-Indo-European vocabulary
> words. If there were indeed a Basque fishing
> settlement in medieval
> Ireland, I would look no further for the source of
> Basque loan words
> into Gaelic.
appear related to basque.
> >and too sharon: you mentioned severalall references i've read say that non insular celts
> >languages--pictish and a brythonic language. i
> >border picts were brythonic with the northerners
> >of undetermined language group.
> Who the Picts are is a very complex question on
> which I generally
> remain neutral (not having kept up with the latest
> scholarly debates
> and since not all scholars agree). They may or may
> not have spoken a
> Celtic language. They may or may not have
> specifically spoken a
> P-Celtic language (i.e., from the Brythonic branch)
> or from some
> other, perhaps their very own, branch of Celtic.
> Last I heard, the
> lean these days is towards thinking that whatever
> the Picts
> originally spoke, by a certain point they were
> speaking some kind of
> Celtic, probably P-Celtic, language. But not all
> scholars are
> convinced of this.
> But the question of the Picts is quite different
> than the people in
> the southwest who spoke a Brythonic language --
> these are known to be
> Britons, the same people who used to be found over
> much or all of
> England and Wales, and later came to be more or less
> limited to Wales
> and Cornwall. (Or, at least, are known to be
> linguistically Britons,
> etc. -- language really tells you little about
> genetic background ;-)
> The Brythonic language of early medieval Scotland
> (south ;-) is often
> called "Cumbric".
> >perhaps there were no non indeuropeans survuving in
> >the celtic isles long enough to leave any
> >evedence, and the basque remnants were part of the
> >medieval basque fishing ports, but i am curious as
> >early gaels show cultural signs that are un known
> >among other indeuropeans. druidry and matrelineal
> >culture beig large among them.
> Except that druidry is not unique to Insular celts
> -- it was found
> among continental celts.
who practiced druidry looked to the isles for their
education and leadership--including the early roman
As for "matrilineal
> culture" -- I'm not surewell actually there is one monolithic culture from
> what you mean by that. If inheritance by matrilineal
> descent, there
> are two points. One, did it exist at all in the
> British Isles and
> two, if so, was it unique to the British Isles? For
> the first, there
> is some evidence but it is not as clear or extensive
> as some like to
> make it out to be, and for the second, I don't know
> that there is not
> any similar evidence anywhere else among
> Indo-European peoples.
> Also, keep in mind that various Indo-European
> cultures have aspects
> of their culture that are unique to them -- if they
> didn't then
> rather than the hundreds of cultures we have now,
> we'd still all be
> one boring monolithic culture from Ireland to India.
india to ireland, based on most pre historians ideas.
> This isn't------------------------------------------------------------------------
> always evidence of non-Indo-European contact or
> culture survival.
> Sometimes cultures just develop their own things.
> Also, even if two
> cultures share a common feature, sometimes this is
> just coincidence
> and not evidence of contact, etc. (By the same
> token, of course,
> sometimes it *is* evidence of contact. I'm just
> pointing out that
> caution is warranted when examining these various
> ska Eafric
> Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
> Medieval Scotland (including resources for names,
> clothing & history):
> The most complete index of reliable web articles
> about pre-1600 names:
> The Medieval Names Archive -
> Consultations about re-creating historically
> accurate pre-1600 names:
> Academy of Saint Gabriel -
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- At 1:16 PM -0700 4/3/2000, iain maciain wrote:
>> Also, keep in mind that various Indo-EuropeanThere *is*? You may want to take a trip to a couple different
>> cultures have aspects
>> of their culture that are unique to them -- if they
>> didn't then
>> rather than the hundreds of cultures we have now,
>> we'd still all be
>> one boring monolithic culture from Ireland to India.
>well actually there is one monolithic culture from
>india to ireland, based on most pre historians ideas.
European countries -- you'll find they aren't all the same ;-). And
even a couple thousand years ago I believe Caesar would have rejected
the idea that he and the Celtae shared a common culture...
Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/