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Re: [albanach] Picts, Britons, and Basques (was: the Dean of Lismore)

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  • iain maciain
    ... i ve read about these oghams in secondary sources--but in a number of them, including j.p. mallory s the indoeuropeans a survey of indoeuropean culture,
    Message 1 of 2 , Apr 3, 2000
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      --- "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
      wrote:
      > At 2:23 PM -0800 3/19/2000, iain maciain wrote:
      > >it's only partially identified and the opinion is
      > that
      > >it is not indoeuropean because it shows no features
      > of
      > >an indoeuropean language, and shows some features
      > of a
      > >basque language, or a language related to basque.
      > >there are several iberian languages that were not
      > >indoeuropean and i've never seen a comparison
      > between
      > >them to determine if they are all basque related.
      >
      > What particular ogam inscriptions are we talking
      > about here?
      i've read about these oghams in secondary
      sources--but in a number of them, including j.p.
      mallory's "the indoeuropeans" a survey of indoeuropean
      culture, and majia gimbutus(sp?) before the
      indoeuropeans tome, and in several others i would have
      to go to the library stacks to look up. i fact i've
      read some reference to this in every pre history of
      the celtic regions that i've read , if it has been
      publisheed recently.
      > >i had a gealic teacher who said there were some non
      > >indoeuropean words in a couple of scotts gaelic
      > >dialects as well. again the guess was a basque
      > related
      > >language, but i didn't read that.
      >
      > Well, we need to be careful about making too much of
      > this. For
      > example, modern English has many, many
      > non-Indo-European vocabulary
      > words. If there were indeed a Basque fishing
      > settlement in medieval
      > Ireland, I would look no further for the source of
      > Basque loan words
      > into Gaelic.
      yeah but the ogham inscriptions are much older and
      appear related to basque.

      > >and too sharon: you mentioned several
      > >languages--pictish and a brythonic language. i
      > thought
      > >border picts were brythonic with the northerners
      > being
      > >of undetermined language group.
      >
      > Who the Picts are is a very complex question on
      > which I generally
      > remain neutral (not having kept up with the latest
      > scholarly debates
      > and since not all scholars agree). They may or may
      > not have spoken a
      > Celtic language. They may or may not have
      > specifically spoken a
      > P-Celtic language (i.e., from the Brythonic branch)
      > or from some
      > other, perhaps their very own, branch of Celtic.
      > Last I heard, the
      > lean these days is towards thinking that whatever
      > the Picts
      > originally spoke, by a certain point they were
      > speaking some kind of
      > Celtic, probably P-Celtic, language. But not all
      > scholars are
      > convinced of this.
      >
      > But the question of the Picts is quite different
      > than the people in
      > the southwest who spoke a Brythonic language --
      > these are known to be
      > Britons, the same people who used to be found over
      > much or all of
      > England and Wales, and later came to be more or less
      > limited to Wales
      > and Cornwall. (Or, at least, are known to be
      > linguistically Britons,
      > etc. -- language really tells you little about
      > genetic background ;-)
      > The Brythonic language of early medieval Scotland
      > (south ;-) is often
      > called "Cumbric".
      >
      > >perhaps there were no non indeuropeans survuving in
      > >the celtic isles long enough to leave any
      > linguistic
      > >evedence, and the basque remnants were part of the
      > >medieval basque fishing ports, but i am curious as
      > the
      > >early gaels show cultural signs that are un known
      > >among other indeuropeans. druidry and matrelineal
      > >culture beig large among them.
      >
      > Except that druidry is not unique to Insular celts
      > -- it was found
      > among continental celts.

      all references i've read say that non insular celts
      who practiced druidry looked to the isles for their
      education and leadership--including the early roman
      references.
      As for "matrilineal
      > culture" -- I'm not sure
      > what you mean by that. If inheritance by matrilineal
      > descent, there
      > are two points. One, did it exist at all in the
      > British Isles and
      > two, if so, was it unique to the British Isles? For
      > the first, there
      > is some evidence but it is not as clear or extensive
      > as some like to
      > make it out to be, and for the second, I don't know
      > that there is not
      > any similar evidence anywhere else among
      > Indo-European peoples.
      >
      > Also, keep in mind that various Indo-European
      > cultures have aspects
      > of their culture that are unique to them -- if they
      > didn't then
      > rather than the hundreds of cultures we have now,
      > we'd still all be
      > one boring monolithic culture from Ireland to India.

      well actually there is one monolithic culture from
      india to ireland, based on most pre historians ideas.

      > This isn't
      > always evidence of non-Indo-European contact or
      > culture survival.
      > Sometimes cultures just develop their own things.
      > Also, even if two
      > cultures share a common feature, sometimes this is
      > just coincidence
      > and not evidence of contact, etc. (By the same
      > token, of course,
      > sometimes it *is* evidence of contact. I'm just
      > pointing out that
      > caution is warranted when examining these various
      > theories.)
      >
      > Sharon
      > ska Eafric
      > Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
      > Medieval Scotland (including resources for names,
      > clothing & history):
      >
      > http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
      > The most complete index of reliable web articles
      > about pre-1600 names:
      > The Medieval Names Archive -
      > http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
      > Consultations about re-creating historically
      > accurate pre-1600 names:
      > Academy of Saint Gabriel -
      > http://www.s-gabriel.org/
      >
      >
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    • Sharon L. Krossa
      ... There *is*? You may want to take a trip to a couple different European countries -- you ll find they aren t all the same ;-). And even a couple thousand
      Message 2 of 2 , Apr 6, 2000
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        At 1:16 PM -0700 4/3/2000, iain maciain wrote:
        >> Also, keep in mind that various Indo-European
        >> cultures have aspects
        >> of their culture that are unique to them -- if they
        >> didn't then
        >> rather than the hundreds of cultures we have now,
        >> we'd still all be
        >> one boring monolithic culture from Ireland to India.
        >
        >well actually there is one monolithic culture from
        >india to ireland, based on most pre historians ideas.

        There *is*? You may want to take a trip to a couple different
        European countries -- you'll find they aren't all the same ;-). And
        even a couple thousand years ago I believe Caesar would have rejected
        the idea that he and the Celtae shared a common culture...

        Sharon
        ska Ewphrick
        Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
        Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
        http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
        The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
        The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
        Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
        Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
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