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[albanach] Re: Stirlingshire

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  • EoganOg@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@erols.com ... No, we don t. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 18 9:11 AM
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      In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
      writes:

      > I'll see what I can do about finding a
      > more historical parish listing.
      > ~Thank you. Does the museum by chance carry, "Atlas of Scottish History to
      > 1707?"

      No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
      from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers, but I believe
      it was their only one and the proprieter picked it up from the U of E on a
      bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how much
      I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.

      In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
      diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
      Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
      need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
      Andrews.

      Aye,
      Eogan

      Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
      Order of the Pearl * Order of the Phoenix Eye
      Militant Society of Bards
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    • Diana Cosby
      EoganOg@aol.com wrote: No, we don t. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 18 9:16 AM
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        EoganOg@... wrote: No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of
        those photocopies from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers,
        but I believe it was their only one and the proprietor picked it up from the U of
        E on a bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how
        much I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.
        ~:) Thanks. I'll see what the University says.

        > In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
        > diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
        > Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
        > need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
        > Andrews.

        ~Please. Thank you very much.
        Diana
      • iain maciain
        i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 18 2:14 PM
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          i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural
          divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions
          of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
          was apparently rather free of such concepts. this is
          still largely so the more gaelic the region , or in
          the brithonic areas the more celtic. don't forget
          that the southern uplands of scotland were largely
          populated by brithonic people with an over lay of
          angle nobility and later norman nobility and that the
          further back you go the closer gaelic and brythonic
          were. william wallace was a tranliteration os william
          the welshman. the south scotts welsh were still
          speaking it (gaels called it gall gael) untill the
          middle of the last century according to onr source i
          know. they are likely the "cruinthe" i previously
          asked people about, and they had a long relationship
          with the gaels, including largely identical religion
          and poetry, and much music shareing. in fact they are
          the likely first harpers of the celtic world--more on
          that later if anyone is interested.


          --- Diana Cosby <cosby@...> wrote:
          > I am researching Stirlingshire, the west-midland
          > county of Scotland.
          > The information I have so far is on:
          > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/index.html
          > The Parishes of Stirlingshire are listed on this
          > site, but a map
          > referencing each Parish isn't given.
          > I'm researching this area for a novel set in
          > 1296. Would these
          > Parishes be applicable in 1296? Anyone have any
          > idea how I would find
          > out a further breakdown of Stirlingshire?
          >
          > On:
          > http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
          > it states: "Scotland is divided into three main
          > regions; the Highlands,
          > the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I
          > noted in the write up
          > of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland
          > county of Scotland. Was
          > there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?
          > Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley
          > region? Thank you
          > very much in advance.
          > Diana Cosby
          > cosby@...
          >
          >
          >
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        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... Which brings up that parishes were organized by diocese, not shires or counties (or sheriffdoms). Also, and this may seem a bit strange to those familiar
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 18 3:32 PM
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            At 12:11 PM -0500 3/18/2000, EoganOg@... wrote:
            >In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
            >writes:
            >
            >> I'll see what I can do about finding a
            >> more historical parish listing.
            >> ~Thank you. Does the museum by chance carry, "Atlas of Scottish History to
            >> 1707?"
            >
            >No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
            >from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers, but I believe
            >it was their only one and the proprieter picked it up from the U of E on a
            >bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how much
            >I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.
            >
            >In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
            >diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
            >Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
            >need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
            >Andrews.

            Which brings up that parishes were organized by diocese, not shires
            or counties (or sheriffdoms).

            Also, and this may seem a bit strange to those familiar with the
            history of the word "sheriff", as far as I can gather the Scots in
            period didn't talk in terms of "shires" very much at all. However,
            they did talk about "sheriffdoms" -- the area under the jurisdiction
            of a sheriff. The Atlas of Scottish History to 1707 also has a map of
            Sheriffdoms recorded by 1300, including the sheriffdom of Stirling.
            (So rather than "Stirlingshire" you have "the sheriffdom of Stirling".

            Another related thing is that Stirling itself was a royal burgh (one
            of the major ones), and there was a royal castle there.

            However! Modernly we tend to think of society in terms of towns and
            cities. Remember that this isn't so for the Middle Ages in Scotland
            -- relatively few people (or rather, few people at all) lived in
            burghs. The largest Scottish burgh in the 16th century (Edinburgh)
            had about 10,000 inhabitants, maybe as many as 15,000 by 1600. All
            the other burghs were much smaller. (Aberdeen, one of the four
            largest, had between 2,000 and 6,000 in the early 16th century). Town
            populations were even smaller circa 1300.

            The places most people were from weren't towns -- depending on class,
            they were from the land their family held (which may be small or
            large), they were from a farm, etc. On a slightly larger scale (and
            in ecclesiastical contexts) they were from a parish.

            Another consequence of this is that one of the common things most
            people know about the middle ages -- all those craftsmen organized
            into guilds, etc. -- well, it didn't apply to the vast majority of
            medieval Scottish society. (Mind you, Scottish burghs didn't use the
            term "guild" for their craft organizations, either, or even organize
            their crafts until the 15th & 16th centuries, but that's a different
            issue ;-)

            So Diana's earl protagonist shouldn't be described as coming from
            Stirling (unless his family happens to keep Stirling Castle for the
            king -- and I honestly don't know whether that is something an earl
            would do or not -- in which case he still doesn't come from the burgh
            of Stirling, but from Stirling Castle).

            While I'm on a roll ;-) When it comes to names, Diana's earl would
            most probably have a name in the style "X de Y", (When spoken in
            English/Scots, that probably became X of Y) where X would be an
            Anglo-Norman origin name (like William, John, etc.) and Y would be a
            place -- the lands his family hold "now" or the lands his family used
            to hold (whether in Scotland, in England, or in France). Since he is
            a high nobleman, this byname may already be a fixed, inherited
            surname, but then it could also be still truly descriptive (if the Y
            is the land he holds). The Y could be the same as his earldom, or it
            could be different.

            Sharon
            ska Effric
            Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
            Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
            Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
            Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
          • Sharon L. Krossa
            ... When asked about Highland/Lowland these days, if it is in reference to any period before the late 14th century, I tend to explain that those terms simply
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 18 3:33 PM
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              At 11:56 AM -0500 3/18/2000, EoganOg@... wrote:
              >Generally when people ask about cultural Highland/Lowland differences, I tend
              >to answer more in terms of Gaelic/Scots linguistic differences, so in this
              >case the Highland line was a shifting one.

              When asked about Highland/Lowland these days, if it is in reference
              to any period before the late 14th century, I tend to explain that
              those terms simply don't apply -- that the very concept doesn't arise
              until the late 14th century. (And for the 15th & 16th centuries, I
              tend to point out that the line, though shifting, had a lot more to
              do with altitude than north/south or east/west -- there are parts of
              the Lowlands were further north than most of the Highlands, and parts
              of the Highlands that were further east than much of the Lowlands...)
              Anyway, I find that using Highland and Lowland when discussing
              earlier periods obscures far more than it illuminates -- the terms
              just get in the way of understanding the culture, people, or politics.

              In reference to Gaels, though, there is a more helpful term that can
              be applied across all time periods -- Gaidhealtachd, the Gaelic
              speaking area. Since the size and location of the Gaidhealtachd
              changed so much over time, using this term allows you to talk about
              it without misleadingly tying it to geography. So I try to talk of
              Gaels and the Gaidhealtachd rather than Highlanders, the Highlands,
              and the Highland Line, regardless of period.

              This shift in terminology can also help the shift in thinking needed
              to deal with the other parts of Scotland in different periods -- a
              situation that cannot be accurately summed up as being just about
              English/Scots speakers. The smallest number of languages spoken in
              the area that is now Scotland in period (not counting Latin) is
              three. In some periods the number was closer to half a dozen. All
              told, over the 1000 years of the Middle Ages, the area of modern
              Scotland saw at least seven, maybe more, languages spoken my
              significant numbers of people (Pictish, Gaelic, a Brythonic language,
              Old English/English/Scots, Norse, Anglo-Norman French, Latin) as well
              as a bunch more spoken by smaller numbers of imports. Thinking in
              terms of Highland/Lowland for earlier periods obscures this
              complexity.

              >But from what you said there
              >seems to have been a great deal of bilingual mixing along the border areas.
              >This is what to expect, of course--just something we don't normally consider.
              > If this is the case, I wonder why we don't see more of a Gaelic influence on
              >Scots? Very few Scots words have Gaelic roots. "Craig" is the only one that
              >readily pops to my mind. Very interesting....

              To quote from the intro to the CSD:

              "Other borrowings originally special to Scots include many from
              Gaelic, beginning at least as early as the 12th century, such as
              cairn, cranreuch, glen, loch, strath and capercail3ie, ingle, messan,
              oe, quaich, sonse, tocher, car (left(-hand)) and crine (shrink),
              along with more recent borrowings such as claymore, gillie, pibroch,
              speulchan, sporran, whisky, and still more recently, ceilidh."

              Many of English words that originally came from Gaelic came via
              Scots. In fact, checking the OED, from what I can gather "Gael" and
              "Gaelic" themselves came into English via Scots. And then there are
              many more that are found only in Scots (not having been passed on to
              English).

              I frequently hear that Scots and/or English doesn't have very many
              words from Gaelic, but I don't think its really so, given the number
              I can come up with off the top of my heard. For example, in addition
              to those listed above, there is bog, slogan, brogue, crag, etc. (Some
              may have come into English directly from Irish Gaelic, others via
              Scots.) Gaelic may not be one of the major sources of vocabulary, but
              it did contribute a fair amount.

              Sharon
              ska Euphrick
              Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
              Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
              http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
              The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
              The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
              Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
              Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
            • Muirghein
              ... OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born in the Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one pronounce
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 18 7:15 PM
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                At 03:33 PM 3/18/00, Euphrick wrote:
                >In reference to Gaels, though, there is a more helpful term that can be
                >applied across all time periods -- Gaidhealtachd, the Gaelic speaking
                >area. Since the size and location of the Gaidhealtachd changed so much
                >over time, using this term allows you to talk about it without
                >misleadingly tying it to geography. So I try to talk of Gaels and the
                >Gaidhealtachd rather than Highlanders, the Highlands, and the Highland
                >Line, regardless of period.

                OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born in the
                Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one pronounce
                "Gaidhealtachd"?

                I'm going to take a stab at it and venture something like GAH-eel-tak.

                YiS,
                (and remembering how hard it was for Efrick and Tangwystyl to explain the
                correct pronunciation of "Muirghein" in e-mail :-),
                Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
                Blue Mountain Cornet and Dreiburgen Web Minister
                http://thunder.prohosting.com/~3burgen/ (ICQ 12594533)
                (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official opinions
                unless specifically stated otherwise)
              • Sharon L. Krossa
                ... Ooops! Forgot something here, didn t I? ;-) ... Good guess, but not quite. I can t figure out just now how to describe the Gaelic pronunciation (partly
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 18 8:25 PM
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                  At 7:15 PM -0800 3/18/2000, Muirghein wrote:
                  >OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born
                  >in the Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one
                  >pronounce "Gaidhealtachd"?

                  Ooops! Forgot something here, didn't I? ;-)


                  >I'm going to take a stab at it and venture something like GAH-eel-tak.

                  Good guess, but not quite. I can't figure out just now how to
                  describe the Gaelic pronunciation (partly because I'm suddenly rather
                  confused about the finer details ;-) but the English pronunciation is
                  \GAEL-tahkhk\ with \kh\ being the hard, rasping sound of the "ch" in
                  German "ach" and "Bach" and Scottish "loch". (So that's that rasping
                  sound \kh\ followed by a \k\ sound.) I have seen it written in
                  English as "Gaeltachd" (and I find it in the OED in reference to
                  Ireland as the Gaeltacht).

                  Sharon
                  ska Africk

                  Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                  Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                  http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                  The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                  The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                  Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                  Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                • Ronda Del Boccio
                  snip in fact they are the likely first harpers of the celtic world--more on that later if anyone is interested. ? I m interested. Serian
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 19 4:12 PM
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                    snip>> in fact they are
                    the likely first harpers of the
                    celtic world--more on
                    that later if anyone is interested.

                    ?
                    I'm interested.
                    Serian
                  • iain maciain
                    allison kinaird and others have noted that the first carvings or pictures of harps of any kind in the celtic world were done on pillars in the south east and
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 19 4:38 PM
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                      allison kinaird and others have noted that the first
                      carvings or pictures of harps of any kind in the
                      celtic world were done on pillars in the south east
                      and middle east(sic)of scotland and that these
                      carvings were attributed to picts , having been done
                      about 600 for the ealiest. there are also a few
                      literary records of these people playing harps strung
                      with waxxed horse hair--an odd material but used in a
                      few other countries too. i'm getting this from
                      kinaird's history of the harp but i've read a few
                      other fleeting references too.

                      these areas also gave us the poet goddodin and a few
                      others who are among the pillars of weslh ancient
                      poetry.it's a little too heroic for me but very
                      adaptable to sca battles and great fighters. i did one
                      addaption but the king it was for died and i was
                      afraid of upsetting anyone by producing it.

                      anywho--the first irish or scottish gaels carvings or
                      pictures of harps are two or more centuries later and
                      show square harps--not much more than lyres, whilest
                      the pictish carvings show in one case a 19 string
                      triangular harp--very close to a full blown celtic
                      folk harp. the theaory is that the old bards used
                      lyres--eithr bowed(the cruit)or plucked(often
                      mistakenly called a harp) and that the picts got the
                      simple early version of a true harp from europe and
                      addapted it to the bardic music by 600. then the
                      gael--newly arrived on the west coast of scotland
                      added the idea of metal strings, which give the
                      limited early harp a volume and resonance unknown in
                      the early medieval world. (Psst--don't tell the irish
                      this)

                      there may be a very good reason the early harping
                      school was centerd in iona, the clairsach may well
                      have been invented nearby, and then spread to ireland.

                      these arguments are all based on very little
                      evidence--mostly carvings a few literary references
                      that are full of words in english and gaelic that are
                      not fully understood today. as i say if you are
                      interested allison kinaird has a whole book on this
                      and it is full of references to other authors.

                      what i'm curious about is why did the technology to
                      make wire strings--and any other wire--survive in a
                      rural agricultural society like the gaeltacht and
                      apparently not in brittain or much of north europe?
                      the romans had the technology and most of europe was
                      closer to roman civilization than the gaels.

                      you can probably tell i spend a lot of time readimg on
                      and pondering obscure topics of celtic lore, recently
                      i've been reading the old welsh and gaelic poetry--an
                      odd bit of literature to say the least. the later
                      irish poems are the closest to what i'd call poetry
                      but i'm new to this and i'm trying to do my own
                      stumbling translations of a few to thry to get the
                      feel.

                      --- Ronda Del Boccio <serian@...> wrote:
                      > snip>> in fact they are
                      > the likely first harpers of the
                      > celtic world--more on
                      > that later if anyone is interested.
                      >
                      > ?
                      > I'm interested.
                      > Serian
                      >
                      >
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                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      ... However, even at the time the Gaels first arrived in Scotland (from Ireland) before the 5th century, the Goidelic (Gaelic) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 25 12:03 AM
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                        At 2:14 PM -0800 3/18/2000, iain maciain wrote:
                        >i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural
                        >divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions
                        >of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
                        >was apparently rather free of such concepts. this is
                        >still largely so the more gaelic the region , or in
                        >the brithonic areas the more celtic. don't forget
                        >that the southern uplands of scotland were largely
                        >populated by brithonic people with an over lay of
                        >angle nobility and later norman nobility and that the
                        >further back you go the closer gaelic and brythonic
                        >were.

                        However, even at the time the Gaels first arrived in Scotland (from
                        Ireland) before the 5th century, the Goidelic (Gaelic) and Brythonic
                        (Welsh, Cornish, Breton, etc.) branches of the Celtic language family
                        were already quite distinct. I don't think in the Middle Ages there
                        was any sense of pan-Celtic unity among Gaels and speakers of
                        Brythonic languages. (The closest you might get is a
                        pan-anti-English sentiment at various times -- but this wasn't based
                        on a shared language family ;-)

                        >william wallace was a tranliteration os william
                        >the welshman. the south scotts welsh were still
                        >speaking it (gaels called it gall gael) untill the
                        >middle of the last century according to onr source i
                        >know.

                        Gaelic was spoken in the southwest of Scotland until about the 17th
                        century. The Brythonic language spoken there died out many centuries
                        earlier. (I can't recall exactly when -- this may not even be known
                        very precisely -- but I believe its somewhere around the 10th -12th
                        century, give or take.) But I'd be very interested if there is some
                        evidence of a Brythonic language survival in Scotland into later
                        periods -- what source said a Brythonic language was spoken in
                        southern Scotland in the 19th century?

                        Sharon
                        ska Affrick
                        Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                        Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                        http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                        The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                        The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                        Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                        Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                      • iain maciain
                        what source said a Brythonic language was ... i was afraid you d ask that as i read it twenty years ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some lovely
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 25 2:23 PM
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                          what source said a Brythonic language was
                          > spoken in
                          > southern Scotland in the 19th century?
                          >
                          i was afraid you'd ask that as i read it twenty years
                          ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some
                          lovely scots singing ladies from the old strathclyde
                          area. they said they were from a formerly northern
                          welsh spealing area and even sang a local welsh song.
                          finding this again will take some time i
                          expect--except the scot's folk scene is tight i might
                          find a reference on the net.

                          anyway they said the language was spoken untill about
                          1850 by a handfull of people and that there is still
                          some written material around--mostly poetry. i'll try
                          to find this--actually i was hoping someone out there
                          on the list would have this more up to date than me.

                          i have also found old poerty from the region in
                          welsh--or a welsh related language but this is from
                          the 8th to 10th centuries at the latest. goddodin et
                          al.

                          johnprebble's lion in the north also talks of the gall
                          gaels--and the scot's normans by the way, but i forget
                          what he says about their survival. that was my source
                          for the meaning of william wallace's name .
                          > Sharon
                          > ska Affrick
                          > Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                          > Medieval Scotland (including resources for names,
                          > clothing & history):
                          >
                          > http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                          > The most complete index of reliable web articles
                          > about pre-1600 names:
                          > The Medieval Names Archive -
                          > http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
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                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                          ... I wouldn t be surprised to find that the singing ladies had got things a little garbled. (Folk singers aren t always good historians, though I know of some
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 7, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            At 2:23 PM -0800 3/25/2000, iain maciain wrote:
                            > what source said a Brythonic language was
                            >> spoken in
                            >> southern Scotland in the 19th century?
                            >>
                            >i was afraid you'd ask that as i read it twenty years
                            >ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some
                            >lovely scots singing ladies from the old strathclyde
                            >area. they said they were from a formerly northern
                            >welsh spealing area and even sang a local welsh song.
                            >finding this again will take some time i
                            >expect--except the scot's folk scene is tight i might
                            >find a reference on the net.
                            >
                            >anyway they said the language was spoken untill about
                            >1850 by a handfull of people and that there is still
                            >some written material around--mostly poetry. i'll try
                            >to find this--actually i was hoping someone out there
                            >on the list would have this more up to date than me.

                            I wouldn't be surprised to find that the singing ladies had got
                            things a little garbled. (Folk singers aren't always good historians,
                            though I know of some exceptions. ;-)

                            They either had got something twisted regarding Cumbric, the
                            Welsh-related (and so Brythonic) language that was spoken in the
                            Strathclyde area many hundreds of years earlier (see below) or else
                            the Welsh speakers were the result of modern migration from Wales.
                            (Not impossible -- the Strathclyde area saw a large immigration from
                            Ireland in the 19th century, it's not impossible that people came
                            from other places as well.)

                            >i have also found old poerty from the region in
                            >welsh--or a welsh related language but this is from
                            >the 8th to 10th centuries at the latest. goddodin et
                            >al.

                            Yes, this is often called Cumbric -- it's not really Welsh, but is
                            descended from the same linguistic ancestor that Welsh is descended
                            from (and Cornish and Breton) and was closely related to contemporary
                            Welsh. In contrast to the Gaelics, which remained a single common
                            language until after the medieval period, the various Brythonic
                            languages are considered to have differentiated by the beginning of
                            the Middle Ages. This is the language that I wrote elsewhere died
                            out in Scotland somewhere in the 10th - 12th century. (I still can't
                            find any of my references which tell me more particulars, and my
                            local Welsh expert is too busy to bother just now, but I'll keep
                            looking.)

                            This southwest area had Gaelic speakers until the 17th or maybe (in
                            remote areas) 18th century. The area saw various languages pushed out
                            by others. Cumbric lost out to Gaelic, then Gaelic to Scots/English.

                            >johnprebble's lion in the north also talks of the gall
                            >gaels--and the scot's normans by the way, but i forget
                            >what he says about their survival. that was my source
                            >for the meaning of william wallace's name .

                            Prebble isn't exactly the best source for Scottish history. The
                            review of it by Rosalind Mitchison in the _Scottish Historical
                            Review_ (Vol. 51, 2: No. 152: October 1972) says, in part, "There is
                            a gracious acknowledgement in the bibliography of the achievement of
                            modern scholars, but precious little sign in the text that any of it
                            has been absorbed. This means the renewed expression of errors that
                            most of us had hoped had been got out of the body of accepted
                            knowledge by now, particularly in economic and social matters." In
                            other words, not only is the book out of date because it's almost
                            thirty years old, it was out of date at the time it was first
                            published.

                            For a single volume history, I recommend Michael Lynch _Scotland: A
                            New History_.

                            That being said, the original source of Wallace's surname is
                            generally accepted, though it there is some question as to whether
                            this surname came into use in his family due to an immigrant from
                            Wales or from an ancestor who as a native Cumbrian isn't certain. By
                            the time of William Wallace, it appears to be essentially a fixed,
                            inherited surname in his family rather than a true descriptive.

                            Anyway, I had better send this message before it dies of old age ;-)

                            Sharon
                            ska Affrick
                            Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                            Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                            Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                            Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
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