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[albanach] Stirlingshire

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  • Diana Cosby
    I am researching Stirlingshire, the west-midland county of Scotland. The information I have so far is on: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/index.html The
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 17, 2000
      I am researching Stirlingshire, the west-midland county of Scotland.
      The information I have so far is on:
      http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/index.html
      The Parishes of Stirlingshire are listed on this site, but a map
      referencing each Parish isn't given.
      I'm researching this area for a novel set in 1296. Would these
      Parishes be applicable in 1296? Anyone have any idea how I would find
      out a further breakdown of Stirlingshire?

      On:
      http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
      it states: "Scotland is divided into three main regions; the Highlands,
      the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I noted in the write up
      of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland county of Scotland. Was
      there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?
      Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region? Thank you
      very much in advance.
      Diana Cosby
      cosby@...
    • EoganOg@aol.com
      In a message dated 3/17/00 5:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@erols.com ... I wouldn t go by this list at all. It is a list of modern parishes. While
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 17, 2000
        In a message dated 3/17/00 5:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
        writes:

        > The Parishes of Stirlingshire are listed on this site, but a map
        > referencing each Parish isn't given.
        > I'm researching this area for a novel set in 1296. Would these
        > Parishes be applicable in 1296? Anyone have any idea how I would find
        > out a further breakdown of Stirlingshire?

        I wouldn't go by this list at all. It is a list of modern parishes. While
        some of them could be quite old, it just wouldn't be reliable for 1296. Some
        parishes would have died out. Some would have been born. And some with the
        same name may now cover a different area. Plus you have that whole nasty
        Reformation thing that happened. I'll see what I can do about finding a more
        historical parish listing.

        > On:
        > http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
        > it states: "Scotland is divided into three main regions; the Highlands,
        > the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I noted in the write up
        > of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland county of Scotland. Was
        > there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?

        Very much so, perhaps more so than today. The Gaelic language was still
        strong and probably half of the population of Scotland was Highland, much
        more so than today. There was a drastic cultural difference, and a lot of
        predjudice.

        > Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region?

        Yes. I think they would have been more likely to call their language
        "Inglis" though. I don't have my books right in front of me, but although
        Scots was spoken (in an earlier form of course), I'm pretty sure it was
        referred to by native speakers as Inglis.
        Aye,
        Eogan

        Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
        Order of the Pearl * Order of the Phoenix Eye
        Militant Society of Bards
        ------------------------------------------------------------
        HTTP://ALBANACH.HOMEPAGE.COM
      • Sharon L. Krossa
        ... I have to disagree here. Highland as a cultural concept does not emerge until the later part of the 14th century. Michael Lynch, in ... Before the
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 17, 2000
          At 9:12 PM -0500 3/17/2000, EoganOg@... wrote:
          >In a message dated 3/17/00 5:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
          >writes:
          >
          >> On:
          >> http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
          >> it states: "Scotland is divided into three main regions; the Highlands,
          >> the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I noted in the write up
          >> of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland county of Scotland. Was
          >> there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?
          >
          >Very much so, perhaps more so than today. The Gaelic language was still
          >strong and probably half of the population of Scotland was Highland, much
          >more so than today. There was a drastic cultural difference, and a lot of
          >predjudice.

          I have to disagree here. "Highland" as a cultural concept does not
          emerge until the later part of the 14th century. Michael Lynch, in
          _Scotland: A New History_ writes:

          -----begin quote-----p. 64 .... p. 67 ....
          Before the fourteenth century contemporaries did not think of a
          division between Highland and Lowland society. There was no 'Highland
          line' and the main physical divisions were still the Forth, the
          Mounth and <druim Alban> (the spine of Britain); these did not
          correspond to the Highland line when it emerged but cut across it,
          separating western from central and Grampain Highlands.
          ....
          How violent was Highland society? By the sixteenth century -- known
          in Gaelic poetry as the 'century of the forays' -- it was notorious
          for its feuds, endemic lawlessness and barbarism. Yet the 'Highland
          problem' was largely the view of central government which had
          alternately ignored and exacerbated tensions in the Highlands for
          much of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. Two Lowland
          perceptions of the Highlands emerged in the fourteenth century and
          began to merge: a new concern with a problem of lawlessness began to
          form in both parliament and king's council after 1369; and
          chroniclers, beginning with Fordun in the 1380s, began to distinguish
          between Highland and Lowland culture, dress, and customs, but
          focusing above all on language:
          ....
          By 1350 Gaelic was on the retreat, and between the Forth and the
          Moray Firth it was probably confined to upland parishes. Yet the
          occurrence of two sets of place-names, in Gaelic and Scots,in many
          parishes in the foothills of the Grampians indicates a bilingual
          population and a flexible linguistic frontier. The third language of
          medieval Scotland, Latin, which was still the main medium of the
          royal administration, continued to act as a bridge between the two
          cultures. It was the Lowland perception of Gaelic rather than the
          extent of its usage which was changing: by 1450 Lowlanders were
          calling it <Erse> rather than <Scotice>. They termed their own speech
          'Inglis'; by 1500 they called it 'Scottis'. The effect was to make
          synonymous in the Lowland mind the Highlands and the <Gaidhealtachd>.
          -----end quote-----

          [Lynch has a short but very useful discussion of the Highlands and
          the attitudes towards the Highlands pp. 65-70 -- though beware his
          still somewhat sloppy use of "Celtic" and "Highland", sins shared by
          large numbers of Scottish historians.]

          Note especially that Lynch says "Two Lowland perceptions of the
          Highlands *emerged* in the fourteenth century" [emphasis mine] They
          weren't around in 1300 (or 1296).

          So while I agree that probably half (or more) of Scotland spoke
          Gaelic circa 1300, this does *not* mean that Gaeldom corresponded to
          the Highlands or that the cultural divisions we're familiar with
          these days existed in 1300. Scottish Gaels and non-Gaels did speak
          different languages, and there were various cultural differences, but
          Scots around 1300 didn't see the chasm we're used to hearing about or
          that the Lowlanders (but not so much Highlanders) perceived in the
          15th & 16th centuries. From what I have seen, there were no "wild
          Scots" in 1300.

          I spend a lot of my time in the SCA trying to walk a tightrope
          between trying to make it clear that there were real differences
          between Scots-speaking Scots and Gaelic-speaking Scots and trying to
          make it clear that these differences were not seen as divisively as
          later centuries and modern myths make out. So, yes, there were
          cultural differences, but around 1300 there don't seem to have been
          cultural prejudices. (Yes, children, medieval Scotland was a
          multi-cultural society ;-)

          I have heard it argued that the late 13th century was actually a time
          when the two linguistic cultures were moving closer together rather
          than becoming more divided. Remember that Anglo-Normans and
          Anglo-Norman influence was not limited to the area that became the
          Highlands -- and many a Scottish noble family held lands in both
          mountainous and lowlying areas, and in both Gaelic and Scots speaking
          areas (even *after* the Lowlanders started seeing a negative cultural
          division). And the succession crisis and conflict with England were
          great unifying factors (though the amazing events from 1286 would not
          have been possible if the various types of Scots had not already
          unified as a kingdom to a great extent).

          Anyway, enough lecture ;-)

          >> Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region?
          >
          >Yes. I think they would have been more likely to call their language
          >"Inglis" though. I don't have my books right in front of me, but although
          >Scots was spoken (in an earlier form of course), I'm pretty sure it was
          >referred to by native speakers as Inglis.

          Yes, see above. (For a novel, though, you have to make choices about
          what terminology will work best in such a situation -- what will get
          the ideas you want across to your reader without making them work too
          hard ;-) -- and there isn't a clear answer whether using the
          contemporary term "Inglis" or the modern term "Scots" will do this
          best.)

          Sharon
          ska Africa
          Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
          Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
          http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
          The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
          The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
          Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
          Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... west-midland county ? What the heck does that mean? ;-) In my experience, in the UK normal folks don t use Midland except to refer to the English
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 17, 2000
            At 5:55 PM -0500 3/17/2000, Diana Cosby wrote:
            >I am researching Stirlingshire, the west-midland county of Scotland.
            >The information I have so far is on:
            >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/index.html
            > The Parishes of Stirlingshire are listed on this site, but a map
            >referencing each Parish isn't given.
            > I'm researching this area for a novel set in 1296. Would these
            >Parishes be applicable in 1296? Anyone have any idea how I would find
            >out a further breakdown of Stirlingshire?

            "west-midland county"? What the heck does that mean? ;-) In my
            experience, in the UK normal folks don't use "Midland" except to
            refer to the English Midlands.

            As to the parishes -- since the above listing is aimed at those doing
            genealogical research, I wouldn't count on the parishes being the
            same as in pre-Reformation Scotland. You need to find the Scottish
            medieval history references that deal with such things. I think there
            is one source that will answer a lot of your questions -- get a copy
            of:

            McNeill, Peter & Hectory MacQueen, eds., _Atlas of Scottish History
            to 1707_ (Edinburgh: The Scottish Medievalists and Department of
            Geography, University of Edinburgh, 1996)

            The ISBN is 0 9503904 1 0

            You should be able to order it through a good bookstore, but if not,
            contact the Department of Geography, University of Edinburgh,
            Drummond Street, Edinburgh EH8 9XP, Scotland, UK. (They may be on the
            web -- search around www.ed.ac.uk)

            This is a really excellent source for a lot of these practical
            questions. (Though to get the most out of it, you need to be familiar
            with Scottish medieval history -- some good general histories are
            listed in the bibliography section of my web pages,
            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/)

            The Atlas does have a listing of parishes circa 1300 (with maps).

            > On:
            >http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
            >it states: "Scotland is divided into three main regions; the Highlands,
            >the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I noted in the write up
            >of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland county of Scotland. Was
            >there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?

            No. The cultural concept of Highlands and Lowlands dates from the
            late 14th century. 1296 is actually a difficult time to explain
            culturally. In many ways the country was more diverse than in later
            centuries, in many ways the various cultures were coming together
            (the later Highland/Lowland divide probably would not be predicted
            from the the late 13th century situation).

            Also, the "Midland Valley" and other such divisions are modern (and
            perhaps heard more among geographers than regular folk). The site is
            great but talking about modern Scotland -- the medieval outlook isn't
            going to be the same. (One thing you need to be wary of is that much
            modern terminology for regions, etc., in Scotland are heavily
            influenced by English usage and don't reflect medieval terminology or
            organization. For example, I'm not even sure that "X-shire" was a
            period Scottish usage. Oh, and you may be interested to know that the
            medieval name of Stirling was Striviling [and variant spellings])

            > Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region? Thank you
            >very much in advance.

            What you want is what language(s) would be spoken in Stirling area
            (we'll just ignore this Midland Valley business ;-). The answer is
            complex. The Atlas of Scottish History has a map with speculative
            language boundaries, but I don't trust it entirely as the
            accompanying text and map are saying somewhat different things.

            Anyway, with regard to the area around Stirling, I fear the answer is
            probably it depends a great deal on who in the area and precisely
            where. In Stirling itself I would expect Scots (closely related to
            English). In the countryside, I would expect Scots some places and
            Gaelic others, and in some areas perhaps a mix and/or bilingualism.
            (In general, closer to the firth I would expect Scots more, and
            closer to the mountains in the north I would expect Gaelic more.
            Class would also play a part. In this region the noble families may
            have been more likely to speak primarily Scots.)

            I should emphasize that this is not a topic where we can have precise
            answers -- we don't have good enough information to say _exactly_
            where the language boundaries were, etc.

            Sharon
            ska Eafric
            Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
            Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
            Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
            Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
          • Diana Cosby
            Sharon L. Krossa wrote: west-midland county ? What the heck does that mean? ;-) In my experience, in the UK normal folks don t use Midland except to refer
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
              "Sharon L. Krossa" wrote: "west-midland county"? What the heck does that
              mean? ;-) In my experience, in the UK normal folks don't use "Midland" except
              to refer to the English Midlands.
              ~I suspected this was a modern term.

              > As to the parishes -- since the above listing is aimed at those doing
              > genealogical research, I wouldn't count on the parishes being the same as
              > in pre-Reformation Scotland. You need to find the Scottish medieval history
              > references that deal with such things. I think there is one source that
              > will answer a lot of your questions -- get a copy of: McNeill, Peter &
              > Hectory MacQueen, eds., _Atlas of Scottish History to 1707_ (Edinburgh: The
              > Scottish Medievalists and Department of Geography, University of Edinburgh,
              > 1996) The ISBN is 0 9503904 1 0

              ~Thanks. I checked all of my on-line book finding sources and came up empty
              handed. I did follow the url and find the Geography department at the U of E
              and e'd them.

              > This is a really excellent source for a lot of these practical questions.
              > (Though to get the most out of it, you need to be familiar with Scottish
              > medieval history -- some good general histories are listed in the
              > bibliography section of my web pages,
              > http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/)

              ~Great, thanks.

              > The Atlas does have a listing of parishes circa 1300 (with maps).

              ~Super!

              > No. The cultural concept of Highlands and Lowlands dates from the late 14th
              > century. 1296 is actually a difficult time to explain culturally. In many
              > ways the country was more diverse than in later centuries, in many ways the
              > various cultures were coming together (the later Highland/Lowland divide
              > probably would not be predicted from the the late 13th century situation).

              ~I'm going to read the pages you specified in the other post in my copy of
              "Scotland - A New History," by Michael Lynch. Very interesting...and
              wonderful for my writing period.

              > The site is great but talking about modern Scotland -- the medieval outlook
              > isn't
              > going to be the same. (One thing you need to be wary of is that much modern
              > terminology for regions, etc., in Scotland are heavily influenced by
              > English usage and don't reflect medieval terminology or organization. For
              > example, I'm not even sure that "X-shire" was a period Scottish usage. Oh,
              > and you may be interested to know that the medieval name of Stirling was
              > Striviling [and variant spellings])

              ~Very interesting.

              > What you want is what language(s) would be spoken in Stirling area (we'll
              > just ignore this Midland Valley business ;-). The answer is complex. The
              > Atlas of Scottish History has a map with speculative language boundaries,
              > but I don't trust it entirely as the accompanying text and map are saying
              > somewhat different things.

              ~Ok, thank you.

              > Anyway, with regard to the area around Stirling, I fear the answer is
              > probably it depends a great deal on who in the area and precisely where. In
              > Stirling itself I would expect Scots (closely related to English). In the
              > countryside, I would expect Scots some places and Gaelic others, and in
              > some areas perhaps a mix and/or bilingualism.

              ~Ok, thanks.

              > (In general, closer to the firth I would expect Scots more, and closer to
              > the mountains in the north I would expect Gaelic more. Class would also
              > play a part. In this region the noble families may have been more likely to
              > speak primarily Scots.)

              ~Great. My protagonist is an Earl.

              > I should emphasize that this is not a topic where we can have precise
              > answers -- we don't have good enough information to say _exactly_where the
              > language boundaries were, etc.

              ~Right, this makes sense.

              > Note especially that Lynch says "Two Lowland perceptions of the Highlands
              > *emerged* in the fourteenth century" [emphasis mine] They weren't around in
              > 1300 (or 1296).

              ~Right.

              > So while I agree that probably half (or more) of Scotland spoke Gaelic
              > circa 1300, this does *not* mean that Gaeldom corresponded to the Highlands
              > or that the cultural divisions we're familiar with these days existed in
              > 1300. Scottish Gaels and non-Gaels did speak different languages, and there
              > were various cultural differences, but Scots around 1300 didn't see the
              > chasm we're used to hearing about or that the Lowlanders (but not so much
              > Highlanders) perceived in the 15th & 16th centuries. From what I have seen,
              > there were no "wild Scots" in 1300.

              ~This makes sense.

              > So, yes, there were cultural differences, but around 1300 there don't seem
              > to have been cultural prejudices.

              ~This is really interesting.

              > I have heard it argued that the late 13th century was actually a time when
              > the two linguistic cultures were moving closer together rather than
              > becoming more divided. Remember that Anglo-Normans and Anglo-Norman
              > influence was not limited to the area that became the Highlands -- and many
              > a Scottish noble family held lands in both mountainous and lowlying areas,
              > and in both Gaelic and Scots speaking
              > areas (even *after* the Lowlanders started seeing a negative cultural
              > division). And the succession crisis and conflict with England were great
              > unifying factors (though the amazing events from 1286 would not have been
              > possible if the various types of Scots had not already unified as a kingdom
              > to a great extent).

              ~This really makes sense and is intriguing. I could see a blend of
              Scots/Gaelic being used depending on the person and their travels.

              > Anyway, enough lecture ;-)

              ~I really appreciate your going into detail and the explanations. It really
              helps.

              > >> Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region?
              > >Yes. I think they would have been more likely to call their language
              > >"Inglis" though. I don't have my books right in front of me, but although
              > >Scots was spoken (in an earlier form of course), I'm pretty sure it was
              > referred to by native speakers as Inglis.

              ~I looked up Inglis in "The Concise Scots Dictionary." It states: English
              adj 1, la14-e18. Then I looked up Scots on page 588: It states: A Forms:
              Scots (the descendant of the historical Sc form) survived till 19 only in
              certain locations, but has gradually re-established itself as preferable to
              Scotch in general contexts among Scottish speakers when speaking English.
              Scottish (the full English form) was used in general contexts by anglicizing
              Scots (17-18); then retained in formal contexts stressing national or
              historical aspects (la18-): 'Scottish burgh', 'Scottish Crown'. ...later it
              goes onto say...5 speaking or expressed in SCOTS (n1), la16-
              So...to clarify my understanding. For the period I am writing, the term
              Scots really wasn't applicable, it is a term for the language derived later,
              in the 16th century, right? The term Inglis is the correct term for the
              Lowland Scot's language in 1296, correct?
              Also, I looked up gaelic, and it says: "The Celtic language of the
              Highlands and Islands (Hieland) 16-. ??? I thought gaelic was a term that
              transcended time. Does this mean that the term gaelic wasn't derived until
              the 16th century? I'm confused.

              > Yes, see above. (For a novel, though, you have to make choices about what
              > terminology will work best in such a situation -- what will get the ideas
              > you want across to your reader without making them work too hard ;-) -- and
              > there isn't a clear answer whether using the contemporary term "Inglis" or
              > the modern term "Scots" will do this best.)

              ~Right. Thanks. I really appreciate your time and all of the explanations.
              Diana
            • Diana Cosby
              EoganOg@aol.com wrote: I wouldn t go by this list at all. It is a list of modern parishes. While some of them could be quite old, it just wouldn t be
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                EoganOg@... wrote: I wouldn't go by this list at all. It is a list of modern
                parishes. While some of them could be quite old, it just wouldn't be reliable
                for 1296. Some parishes would have died out. Some would have been born. And
                some with the same name may now cover a different area. Plus you have that whole
                nasty Reformation thing that happened. I'll see what I can do about finding a
                more historical parish listing.
                ~Thank you. Does the museum by chance carry, "Atlas of Scottish History to
                1707?"

                > > Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley region?
                > Yes. I think they would have been more likely to call their language "Inglis"
                > though. I don't have my books right in front of me, but although Scots was
                > spoken (in an earlier form of course), I'm pretty sure it was referred to by
                > native speakers as Inglis.

                ~Thank you very much!
                Diana
              • EoganOg@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/18/00 3:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Your post was very interesting! Thanks for enlightening us. I admit that my pre-14th century
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                  In a message dated 3/18/00 3:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  krossa@... writes:

                  > So, yes, there were
                  > cultural differences, but around 1300 there don't seem to have been
                  > cultural prejudices. (Yes, children, medieval Scotland was a
                  > multi-cultural society ;-)
                  >
                  > I have heard it argued that the late 13th century was actually a time
                  > when the two linguistic cultures were moving closer together rather
                  > than becoming more divided.

                  Your post was very interesting! Thanks for enlightening us. I admit that my
                  pre-14th century knowledge of Scottish/Gaelic culture needs some work. This
                  is very interesting, thanks!

                  Generally when people ask about cultural Highland/Lowland differences, I tend
                  to answer more in terms of Gaelic/Scots linguistic differences, so in this
                  case the Highland line was a shifting one. But from what you said there
                  seems to have been a great deal of bilingual mixing along the border areas.
                  This is what to expect, of course--just something we don't normally consider.
                  If this is the case, I wonder why we don't see more of a Gaelic influence on
                  Scots? Very few Scots words have Gaelic roots. "Craig" is the only one that
                  readily pops to my mind. Very interesting....
                  Aye,
                  Eogan

                  Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
                  Order of the Pearl * Order of the Phoenix Eye
                  Militant Society of Bards
                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  HTTP://ALBANACH.HOMEPAGE.COM
                • EoganOg@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@erols.com ... No, we don t. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                    In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
                    writes:

                    > I'll see what I can do about finding a
                    > more historical parish listing.
                    > ~Thank you. Does the museum by chance carry, "Atlas of Scottish History to
                    > 1707?"

                    No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
                    from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers, but I believe
                    it was their only one and the proprieter picked it up from the U of E on a
                    bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how much
                    I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.

                    In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
                    diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
                    Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
                    need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
                    Andrews.

                    Aye,
                    Eogan

                    Tighearn Eoghan Og mac Labhrainn
                    Order of the Pearl * Order of the Phoenix Eye
                    Militant Society of Bards
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    HTTP://ALBANACH.HOMEPAGE.COM
                  • Diana Cosby
                    EoganOg@aol.com wrote: No, we don t. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                      EoganOg@... wrote: No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of
                      those photocopies from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers,
                      but I believe it was their only one and the proprietor picked it up from the U of
                      E on a bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how
                      much I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.
                      ~:) Thanks. I'll see what the University says.

                      > In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
                      > diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
                      > Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
                      > need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
                      > Andrews.

                      ~Please. Thank you very much.
                      Diana
                    • iain maciain
                      i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                        i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural
                        divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions
                        of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
                        was apparently rather free of such concepts. this is
                        still largely so the more gaelic the region , or in
                        the brithonic areas the more celtic. don't forget
                        that the southern uplands of scotland were largely
                        populated by brithonic people with an over lay of
                        angle nobility and later norman nobility and that the
                        further back you go the closer gaelic and brythonic
                        were. william wallace was a tranliteration os william
                        the welshman. the south scotts welsh were still
                        speaking it (gaels called it gall gael) untill the
                        middle of the last century according to onr source i
                        know. they are likely the "cruinthe" i previously
                        asked people about, and they had a long relationship
                        with the gaels, including largely identical religion
                        and poetry, and much music shareing. in fact they are
                        the likely first harpers of the celtic world--more on
                        that later if anyone is interested.


                        --- Diana Cosby <cosby@...> wrote:
                        > I am researching Stirlingshire, the west-midland
                        > county of Scotland.
                        > The information I have so far is on:
                        > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/index.html
                        > The Parishes of Stirlingshire are listed on this
                        > site, but a map
                        > referencing each Parish isn't given.
                        > I'm researching this area for a novel set in
                        > 1296. Would these
                        > Parishes be applicable in 1296? Anyone have any
                        > idea how I would find
                        > out a further breakdown of Stirlingshire?
                        >
                        > On:
                        > http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/scotland.html
                        > it states: "Scotland is divided into three main
                        > regions; the Highlands,
                        > the Midland Valley and the Southern Uplands." I
                        > noted in the write up
                        > of Stirlingshire is located in the west-midland
                        > county of Scotland. Was
                        > there the Highland/Lowland segregation in 1296?
                        > Would Scots be the language of the Midland Valley
                        > region? Thank you
                        > very much in advance.
                        > Diana Cosby
                        > cosby@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Sharon L. Krossa
                        ... Which brings up that parishes were organized by diocese, not shires or counties (or sheriffdoms). Also, and this may seem a bit strange to those familiar
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                          At 12:11 PM -0500 3/18/2000, EoganOg@... wrote:
                          >In a message dated 3/18/00 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cosby@...
                          >writes:
                          >
                          >> I'll see what I can do about finding a
                          >> more historical parish listing.
                          >> ~Thank you. Does the museum by chance carry, "Atlas of Scottish History to
                          >> 1707?"
                          >
                          >No, we don't. But this is the book that I sent you all of those photocopies
                          >from last year. I got my copy from Weems & Sons booksellers, but I believe
                          >it was their only one and the proprieter picked it up from the U of E on a
                          >bookfinding trip he had taken. Regardless, I don't want to go in to how much
                          >I paid for it... ;-) it is valuable, though.
                          >
                          >In the section of parish churches from around 1300 AD, if you look in the
                          >diocese of St. Andrews, in the Archdeaconry of Lothian, in the Linlithgow
                          >Deanery, you will find Stirling listed as one of about 36 parishes. Did you
                          >need a copy of this map? It shows all 111 parishes in the diocese of St.
                          >Andrews.

                          Which brings up that parishes were organized by diocese, not shires
                          or counties (or sheriffdoms).

                          Also, and this may seem a bit strange to those familiar with the
                          history of the word "sheriff", as far as I can gather the Scots in
                          period didn't talk in terms of "shires" very much at all. However,
                          they did talk about "sheriffdoms" -- the area under the jurisdiction
                          of a sheriff. The Atlas of Scottish History to 1707 also has a map of
                          Sheriffdoms recorded by 1300, including the sheriffdom of Stirling.
                          (So rather than "Stirlingshire" you have "the sheriffdom of Stirling".

                          Another related thing is that Stirling itself was a royal burgh (one
                          of the major ones), and there was a royal castle there.

                          However! Modernly we tend to think of society in terms of towns and
                          cities. Remember that this isn't so for the Middle Ages in Scotland
                          -- relatively few people (or rather, few people at all) lived in
                          burghs. The largest Scottish burgh in the 16th century (Edinburgh)
                          had about 10,000 inhabitants, maybe as many as 15,000 by 1600. All
                          the other burghs were much smaller. (Aberdeen, one of the four
                          largest, had between 2,000 and 6,000 in the early 16th century). Town
                          populations were even smaller circa 1300.

                          The places most people were from weren't towns -- depending on class,
                          they were from the land their family held (which may be small or
                          large), they were from a farm, etc. On a slightly larger scale (and
                          in ecclesiastical contexts) they were from a parish.

                          Another consequence of this is that one of the common things most
                          people know about the middle ages -- all those craftsmen organized
                          into guilds, etc. -- well, it didn't apply to the vast majority of
                          medieval Scottish society. (Mind you, Scottish burghs didn't use the
                          term "guild" for their craft organizations, either, or even organize
                          their crafts until the 15th & 16th centuries, but that's a different
                          issue ;-)

                          So Diana's earl protagonist shouldn't be described as coming from
                          Stirling (unless his family happens to keep Stirling Castle for the
                          king -- and I honestly don't know whether that is something an earl
                          would do or not -- in which case he still doesn't come from the burgh
                          of Stirling, but from Stirling Castle).

                          While I'm on a roll ;-) When it comes to names, Diana's earl would
                          most probably have a name in the style "X de Y", (When spoken in
                          English/Scots, that probably became X of Y) where X would be an
                          Anglo-Norman origin name (like William, John, etc.) and Y would be a
                          place -- the lands his family hold "now" or the lands his family used
                          to hold (whether in Scotland, in England, or in France). Since he is
                          a high nobleman, this byname may already be a fixed, inherited
                          surname, but then it could also be still truly descriptive (if the Y
                          is the land he holds). The Y could be the same as his earldom, or it
                          could be different.

                          Sharon
                          ska Effric
                          Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                          Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                          http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                          The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                          The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                          Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                          Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                          ... When asked about Highland/Lowland these days, if it is in reference to any period before the late 14th century, I tend to explain that those terms simply
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                            At 11:56 AM -0500 3/18/2000, EoganOg@... wrote:
                            >Generally when people ask about cultural Highland/Lowland differences, I tend
                            >to answer more in terms of Gaelic/Scots linguistic differences, so in this
                            >case the Highland line was a shifting one.

                            When asked about Highland/Lowland these days, if it is in reference
                            to any period before the late 14th century, I tend to explain that
                            those terms simply don't apply -- that the very concept doesn't arise
                            until the late 14th century. (And for the 15th & 16th centuries, I
                            tend to point out that the line, though shifting, had a lot more to
                            do with altitude than north/south or east/west -- there are parts of
                            the Lowlands were further north than most of the Highlands, and parts
                            of the Highlands that were further east than much of the Lowlands...)
                            Anyway, I find that using Highland and Lowland when discussing
                            earlier periods obscures far more than it illuminates -- the terms
                            just get in the way of understanding the culture, people, or politics.

                            In reference to Gaels, though, there is a more helpful term that can
                            be applied across all time periods -- Gaidhealtachd, the Gaelic
                            speaking area. Since the size and location of the Gaidhealtachd
                            changed so much over time, using this term allows you to talk about
                            it without misleadingly tying it to geography. So I try to talk of
                            Gaels and the Gaidhealtachd rather than Highlanders, the Highlands,
                            and the Highland Line, regardless of period.

                            This shift in terminology can also help the shift in thinking needed
                            to deal with the other parts of Scotland in different periods -- a
                            situation that cannot be accurately summed up as being just about
                            English/Scots speakers. The smallest number of languages spoken in
                            the area that is now Scotland in period (not counting Latin) is
                            three. In some periods the number was closer to half a dozen. All
                            told, over the 1000 years of the Middle Ages, the area of modern
                            Scotland saw at least seven, maybe more, languages spoken my
                            significant numbers of people (Pictish, Gaelic, a Brythonic language,
                            Old English/English/Scots, Norse, Anglo-Norman French, Latin) as well
                            as a bunch more spoken by smaller numbers of imports. Thinking in
                            terms of Highland/Lowland for earlier periods obscures this
                            complexity.

                            >But from what you said there
                            >seems to have been a great deal of bilingual mixing along the border areas.
                            >This is what to expect, of course--just something we don't normally consider.
                            > If this is the case, I wonder why we don't see more of a Gaelic influence on
                            >Scots? Very few Scots words have Gaelic roots. "Craig" is the only one that
                            >readily pops to my mind. Very interesting....

                            To quote from the intro to the CSD:

                            "Other borrowings originally special to Scots include many from
                            Gaelic, beginning at least as early as the 12th century, such as
                            cairn, cranreuch, glen, loch, strath and capercail3ie, ingle, messan,
                            oe, quaich, sonse, tocher, car (left(-hand)) and crine (shrink),
                            along with more recent borrowings such as claymore, gillie, pibroch,
                            speulchan, sporran, whisky, and still more recently, ceilidh."

                            Many of English words that originally came from Gaelic came via
                            Scots. In fact, checking the OED, from what I can gather "Gael" and
                            "Gaelic" themselves came into English via Scots. And then there are
                            many more that are found only in Scots (not having been passed on to
                            English).

                            I frequently hear that Scots and/or English doesn't have very many
                            words from Gaelic, but I don't think its really so, given the number
                            I can come up with off the top of my heard. For example, in addition
                            to those listed above, there is bog, slogan, brogue, crag, etc. (Some
                            may have come into English directly from Irish Gaelic, others via
                            Scots.) Gaelic may not be one of the major sources of vocabulary, but
                            it did contribute a fair amount.

                            Sharon
                            ska Euphrick
                            Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                            Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                            Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                            Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                          • Muirghein
                            ... OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born in the Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one pronounce
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                              At 03:33 PM 3/18/00, Euphrick wrote:
                              >In reference to Gaels, though, there is a more helpful term that can be
                              >applied across all time periods -- Gaidhealtachd, the Gaelic speaking
                              >area. Since the size and location of the Gaidhealtachd changed so much
                              >over time, using this term allows you to talk about it without
                              >misleadingly tying it to geography. So I try to talk of Gaels and the
                              >Gaidhealtachd rather than Highlanders, the Highlands, and the Highland
                              >Line, regardless of period.

                              OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born in the
                              Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one pronounce
                              "Gaidhealtachd"?

                              I'm going to take a stab at it and venture something like GAH-eel-tak.

                              YiS,
                              (and remembering how hard it was for Efrick and Tangwystyl to explain the
                              correct pronunciation of "Muirghein" in e-mail :-),
                              Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire an Faoilciarach /|\
                              Blue Mountain Cornet and Dreiburgen Web Minister
                              http://thunder.prohosting.com/~3burgen/ (ICQ 12594533)
                              (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official opinions
                              unless specifically stated otherwise)
                            • Sharon L. Krossa
                              ... Ooops! Forgot something here, didn t I? ;-) ... Good guess, but not quite. I can t figure out just now how to describe the Gaelic pronunciation (partly
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 18, 2000
                                At 7:15 PM -0800 3/18/2000, Muirghein wrote:
                                >OK, in the interests of describing my persona more accurately (born
                                >in the Gaelic speaking area of Scotland in 1288), how does one
                                >pronounce "Gaidhealtachd"?

                                Ooops! Forgot something here, didn't I? ;-)


                                >I'm going to take a stab at it and venture something like GAH-eel-tak.

                                Good guess, but not quite. I can't figure out just now how to
                                describe the Gaelic pronunciation (partly because I'm suddenly rather
                                confused about the finer details ;-) but the English pronunciation is
                                \GAEL-tahkhk\ with \kh\ being the hard, rasping sound of the "ch" in
                                German "ach" and "Bach" and Scottish "loch". (So that's that rasping
                                sound \kh\ followed by a \k\ sound.) I have seen it written in
                                English as "Gaeltachd" (and I find it in the OED in reference to
                                Ireland as the Gaeltacht).

                                Sharon
                                ska Africk

                                Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                                Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                                http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                                The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                                The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                                Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                                Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                              • Ronda Del Boccio
                                snip in fact they are the likely first harpers of the celtic world--more on that later if anyone is interested. ? I m interested. Serian
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 19, 2000
                                  snip>> in fact they are
                                  the likely first harpers of the
                                  celtic world--more on
                                  that later if anyone is interested.

                                  ?
                                  I'm interested.
                                  Serian
                                • iain maciain
                                  allison kinaird and others have noted that the first carvings or pictures of harps of any kind in the celtic world were done on pillars in the south east and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 19, 2000
                                    allison kinaird and others have noted that the first
                                    carvings or pictures of harps of any kind in the
                                    celtic world were done on pillars in the south east
                                    and middle east(sic)of scotland and that these
                                    carvings were attributed to picts , having been done
                                    about 600 for the ealiest. there are also a few
                                    literary records of these people playing harps strung
                                    with waxxed horse hair--an odd material but used in a
                                    few other countries too. i'm getting this from
                                    kinaird's history of the harp but i've read a few
                                    other fleeting references too.

                                    these areas also gave us the poet goddodin and a few
                                    others who are among the pillars of weslh ancient
                                    poetry.it's a little too heroic for me but very
                                    adaptable to sca battles and great fighters. i did one
                                    addaption but the king it was for died and i was
                                    afraid of upsetting anyone by producing it.

                                    anywho--the first irish or scottish gaels carvings or
                                    pictures of harps are two or more centuries later and
                                    show square harps--not much more than lyres, whilest
                                    the pictish carvings show in one case a 19 string
                                    triangular harp--very close to a full blown celtic
                                    folk harp. the theaory is that the old bards used
                                    lyres--eithr bowed(the cruit)or plucked(often
                                    mistakenly called a harp) and that the picts got the
                                    simple early version of a true harp from europe and
                                    addapted it to the bardic music by 600. then the
                                    gael--newly arrived on the west coast of scotland
                                    added the idea of metal strings, which give the
                                    limited early harp a volume and resonance unknown in
                                    the early medieval world. (Psst--don't tell the irish
                                    this)

                                    there may be a very good reason the early harping
                                    school was centerd in iona, the clairsach may well
                                    have been invented nearby, and then spread to ireland.

                                    these arguments are all based on very little
                                    evidence--mostly carvings a few literary references
                                    that are full of words in english and gaelic that are
                                    not fully understood today. as i say if you are
                                    interested allison kinaird has a whole book on this
                                    and it is full of references to other authors.

                                    what i'm curious about is why did the technology to
                                    make wire strings--and any other wire--survive in a
                                    rural agricultural society like the gaeltacht and
                                    apparently not in brittain or much of north europe?
                                    the romans had the technology and most of europe was
                                    closer to roman civilization than the gaels.

                                    you can probably tell i spend a lot of time readimg on
                                    and pondering obscure topics of celtic lore, recently
                                    i've been reading the old welsh and gaelic poetry--an
                                    odd bit of literature to say the least. the later
                                    irish poems are the closest to what i'd call poetry
                                    but i'm new to this and i'm trying to do my own
                                    stumbling translations of a few to thry to get the
                                    feel.

                                    --- Ronda Del Boccio <serian@...> wrote:
                                    > snip>> in fact they are
                                    > the likely first harpers of the
                                    > celtic world--more on
                                    > that later if anyone is interested.
                                    >
                                    > ?
                                    > I'm interested.
                                    > Serian
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                                    ... However, even at the time the Gaels first arrived in Scotland (from Ireland) before the 5th century, the Goidelic (Gaelic) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 25, 2000
                                      At 2:14 PM -0800 3/18/2000, iain maciain wrote:
                                      >i really have to agree with sharon on the cultural
                                      >divise. moderns are often projecting their own notions
                                      >of ethnicity and race back into a scottish past that
                                      >was apparently rather free of such concepts. this is
                                      >still largely so the more gaelic the region , or in
                                      >the brithonic areas the more celtic. don't forget
                                      >that the southern uplands of scotland were largely
                                      >populated by brithonic people with an over lay of
                                      >angle nobility and later norman nobility and that the
                                      >further back you go the closer gaelic and brythonic
                                      >were.

                                      However, even at the time the Gaels first arrived in Scotland (from
                                      Ireland) before the 5th century, the Goidelic (Gaelic) and Brythonic
                                      (Welsh, Cornish, Breton, etc.) branches of the Celtic language family
                                      were already quite distinct. I don't think in the Middle Ages there
                                      was any sense of pan-Celtic unity among Gaels and speakers of
                                      Brythonic languages. (The closest you might get is a
                                      pan-anti-English sentiment at various times -- but this wasn't based
                                      on a shared language family ;-)

                                      >william wallace was a tranliteration os william
                                      >the welshman. the south scotts welsh were still
                                      >speaking it (gaels called it gall gael) untill the
                                      >middle of the last century according to onr source i
                                      >know.

                                      Gaelic was spoken in the southwest of Scotland until about the 17th
                                      century. The Brythonic language spoken there died out many centuries
                                      earlier. (I can't recall exactly when -- this may not even be known
                                      very precisely -- but I believe its somewhere around the 10th -12th
                                      century, give or take.) But I'd be very interested if there is some
                                      evidence of a Brythonic language survival in Scotland into later
                                      periods -- what source said a Brythonic language was spoken in
                                      southern Scotland in the 19th century?

                                      Sharon
                                      ska Affrick
                                      Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                                      Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                                      http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                                      The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                                      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                                      Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                                      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                                    • iain maciain
                                      what source said a Brythonic language was ... i was afraid you d ask that as i read it twenty years ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some lovely
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 25, 2000
                                        what source said a Brythonic language was
                                        > spoken in
                                        > southern Scotland in the 19th century?
                                        >
                                        i was afraid you'd ask that as i read it twenty years
                                        ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some
                                        lovely scots singing ladies from the old strathclyde
                                        area. they said they were from a formerly northern
                                        welsh spealing area and even sang a local welsh song.
                                        finding this again will take some time i
                                        expect--except the scot's folk scene is tight i might
                                        find a reference on the net.

                                        anyway they said the language was spoken untill about
                                        1850 by a handfull of people and that there is still
                                        some written material around--mostly poetry. i'll try
                                        to find this--actually i was hoping someone out there
                                        on the list would have this more up to date than me.

                                        i have also found old poerty from the region in
                                        welsh--or a welsh related language but this is from
                                        the 8th to 10th centuries at the latest. goddodin et
                                        al.

                                        johnprebble's lion in the north also talks of the gall
                                        gaels--and the scot's normans by the way, but i forget
                                        what he says about their survival. that was my source
                                        for the meaning of william wallace's name .
                                        > Sharon
                                        > ska Affrick
                                        > Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                                        > Medieval Scotland (including resources for names,
                                        > clothing & history):
                                        >
                                        > http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                                        > The most complete index of reliable web articles
                                        > about pre-1600 names:
                                        > The Medieval Names Archive -
                                        > http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                                        > Consultations about re-creating historically
                                        > accurate pre-1600 names:
                                        > Academy of Saint Gabriel -
                                        > http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Sharon L. Krossa
                                        ... I wouldn t be surprised to find that the singing ladies had got things a little garbled. (Folk singers aren t always good historians, though I know of some
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Apr 7, 2000
                                          At 2:23 PM -0800 3/25/2000, iain maciain wrote:
                                          > what source said a Brythonic language was
                                          >> spoken in
                                          >> southern Scotland in the 19th century?
                                          >>
                                          >i was afraid you'd ask that as i read it twenty years
                                          >ago. it was in a book--more a phamphlet from some
                                          >lovely scots singing ladies from the old strathclyde
                                          >area. they said they were from a formerly northern
                                          >welsh spealing area and even sang a local welsh song.
                                          >finding this again will take some time i
                                          >expect--except the scot's folk scene is tight i might
                                          >find a reference on the net.
                                          >
                                          >anyway they said the language was spoken untill about
                                          >1850 by a handfull of people and that there is still
                                          >some written material around--mostly poetry. i'll try
                                          >to find this--actually i was hoping someone out there
                                          >on the list would have this more up to date than me.

                                          I wouldn't be surprised to find that the singing ladies had got
                                          things a little garbled. (Folk singers aren't always good historians,
                                          though I know of some exceptions. ;-)

                                          They either had got something twisted regarding Cumbric, the
                                          Welsh-related (and so Brythonic) language that was spoken in the
                                          Strathclyde area many hundreds of years earlier (see below) or else
                                          the Welsh speakers were the result of modern migration from Wales.
                                          (Not impossible -- the Strathclyde area saw a large immigration from
                                          Ireland in the 19th century, it's not impossible that people came
                                          from other places as well.)

                                          >i have also found old poerty from the region in
                                          >welsh--or a welsh related language but this is from
                                          >the 8th to 10th centuries at the latest. goddodin et
                                          >al.

                                          Yes, this is often called Cumbric -- it's not really Welsh, but is
                                          descended from the same linguistic ancestor that Welsh is descended
                                          from (and Cornish and Breton) and was closely related to contemporary
                                          Welsh. In contrast to the Gaelics, which remained a single common
                                          language until after the medieval period, the various Brythonic
                                          languages are considered to have differentiated by the beginning of
                                          the Middle Ages. This is the language that I wrote elsewhere died
                                          out in Scotland somewhere in the 10th - 12th century. (I still can't
                                          find any of my references which tell me more particulars, and my
                                          local Welsh expert is too busy to bother just now, but I'll keep
                                          looking.)

                                          This southwest area had Gaelic speakers until the 17th or maybe (in
                                          remote areas) 18th century. The area saw various languages pushed out
                                          by others. Cumbric lost out to Gaelic, then Gaelic to Scots/English.

                                          >johnprebble's lion in the north also talks of the gall
                                          >gaels--and the scot's normans by the way, but i forget
                                          >what he says about their survival. that was my source
                                          >for the meaning of william wallace's name .

                                          Prebble isn't exactly the best source for Scottish history. The
                                          review of it by Rosalind Mitchison in the _Scottish Historical
                                          Review_ (Vol. 51, 2: No. 152: October 1972) says, in part, "There is
                                          a gracious acknowledgement in the bibliography of the achievement of
                                          modern scholars, but precious little sign in the text that any of it
                                          has been absorbed. This means the renewed expression of errors that
                                          most of us had hoped had been got out of the body of accepted
                                          knowledge by now, particularly in economic and social matters." In
                                          other words, not only is the book out of date because it's almost
                                          thirty years old, it was out of date at the time it was first
                                          published.

                                          For a single volume history, I recommend Michael Lynch _Scotland: A
                                          New History_.

                                          That being said, the original source of Wallace's surname is
                                          generally accepted, though it there is some question as to whether
                                          this surname came into use in his family due to an immigrant from
                                          Wales or from an ancestor who as a native Cumbrian isn't certain. By
                                          the time of William Wallace, it appears to be essentially a fixed,
                                          inherited surname in his family rather than a true descriptive.

                                          Anyway, I had better send this message before it dies of old age ;-)

                                          Sharon
                                          ska Affrick
                                          Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                                          Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                                          http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                                          The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                                          The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                                          Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                                          Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
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