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[albanach] Re: Scotts Gaelic question

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  • NanSea
    Hi, Since you are addressing names right now. I have a question. Before I had clue, I picked the name Selina Marie Sinclair. I think I m leaning
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 31, 2000
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      Hi,
      Since you are addressing names right now. I have a <<personal>>
      question. Before I had clue, I picked the name Selina Marie Sinclair.
      I think I'm leaning toward early 1400's for my time period. I am
      Scottish. Anything I should do (or can do) to make this name more
      correctly Scottish?
      Thanks,
      Selina
    • Leairna
      Greetings and salutations peoples of albanach, Leairna here, with yet another question (go figure) Due to the way things work when you submit stuff like names
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 31, 2000
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        Greetings and salutations peoples of albanach,

        Leairna here, with yet another question (go figure)

        Due to the way things work when you submit stuff like names and devices in
        the SCA, I get to pick all over again a name and device (how lucky for me)
        if I am sounding a bit peeeved about this turn of events, I am not, just
        darn excited to start this process again.

        My question is, what would be a Scotts Gaelic term for "The Late", not as in
        dead, but as in tardy, lagging behind, way to busy for her own good and over
        booked so running a bit late... type of late?

        You see, I was dubbed Leairna the Late about my 1st month in the sca, not
        something I am terribly proud of, but heck, it is me, and well, yes, I am
        always late. (Sigh)

        So, since talking to James of the Lake(our resident Knows OOdles hearld), he
        told me I could become Leairn, the Male version of Leairna.. That there is
        no RULE that says I have to submit a female name, and I can follow it up by
        something like The late, or The red, or Of the loch etc... And now since
        the Lorals are picky picky, I can.

        Soooo please if you know any Scotts Gaelic and are able to figure out what
        "The Late" would be in that language I would be most grateful. (if you say
        Leairn of the Lake really fast, it sounds just like Leairna the late...
        Mawahahahahaha)

        Thank you all in advance so much, and have a simply marvelous day.

        Leairna, no longer going to be dierdrah, but just plaine leairna, hopefuly
        soon leairn leagely.





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      • Sharon L. Krossa
        ... If you are interested in a historically plausible Scottish Gaelic name, the first question is not what is the Scottish Gaelic for the late but did
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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          At 4:18 PM -0800 1/31/00, Leairna wrote:
          >Due to the way things work when you submit stuff like names and devices in
          >the SCA, I get to pick all over again a name and device (how lucky for me)
          >if I am sounding a bit peeeved about this turn of events, I am not, just
          >darn excited to start this process again.
          >
          >My question is, what would be a Scotts Gaelic term for "The Late", not as in
          >dead, but as in tardy, lagging behind, way to busy for her own good and over
          >booked so running a bit late... type of late?

          If you are interested in a historically plausible Scottish Gaelic
          name, the first question is not what is the Scottish Gaelic for "the
          late" but did medieval Scottish Gaels use bynames with meanings like
          "the late"?

          I would be surprised if there were. Typical Gaelic descriptive
          bynames are fairly concrete and usually physical -- they had meanings
          like red, fair, black, big, small, occasionally more complex ones
          like crooked-nose, long-legs, beautiful-hair, slender-neck. I don't
          find any that are as abstract as "late" -- or as intermittent (after
          all, you are only late when you first arrive, thereafter you are
          simply present). All in all, this just doesn't strike me as a likely
          meaning for a Gaelic byname. [Though, as usual, if there is evidence
          to the contrary I will happily change my opinion ;-)]

          >You see, I was dubbed Leairna the Late about my 1st month in the sca, not
          >something I am terribly proud of, but heck, it is me, and well, yes, I am
          >always late. (Sigh)
          >
          >So, since talking to James of the Lake(our resident Knows OOdles hearld), he
          >told me I could become Leairn, the Male version of Leairna.. That there is
          >no RULE that says I have to submit a female name, and I can follow it up by
          >something like The late, or The red, or Of the loch etc... And now since
          >the Lorals are picky picky, I can.

          Well, you could, and probably get it registered, too, but it wouldn't
          necessarily make a plausible medieval Scottish Gaelic name. (See my
          comments above. In addition, medieval Gaels did not normally mix
          languages within a single name. They also don't seem to have used
          locative bynames in Gaelic -- that is, they didn't use bynames that
          said where they lived or where they were from.)

          As regards the given name, what is the source for "Leairn"? Something
          strikes me as un-Gaelic about that particular string of vowels, so
          you should double check this. (I couldn't find it in any of the
          online or paper sources I checked.)

          I'd be happy to consult further on historical plausibility for
          Scottish names if you're interested. (Some people just want to
          register, and that's fine too :-)

          Effrick
          Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
          Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
          http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
          The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
          Arval's Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
          Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
          Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... Yes, there are several things: 1. Pick only one given name. I know of only two Scots who had double given names before 1600. One was King James VI and one
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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            At 5:19 AM +1100 2/1/00, NanSea wrote:
            >Hi,
            >Since you are addressing names right now. I have a <<personal>>
            >question. Before I had clue, I picked the name Selina Marie Sinclair.
            >I think I'm leaning toward early 1400's for my time period. I am
            >Scottish. Anything I should do (or can do) to make this name more
            >correctly Scottish?

            Yes, there are several things:

            1. Pick only one given name.

            I know of only two Scots who had double given names before 1600. One
            was King James VI and one was his son -- not exactly normal people ;-)

            2. Pick a given name used in the 1400s.

            Withycombe indicates that Selina doesn't appear in England until the
            17th century and I find no evidence for it in Scotland.

            Various forms of Mary, however, were common in Lowland Scotland in
            the 15th century.

            3. Use period forms of the given name.

            I don't actually find any examples of "Marie" in the 15th century in
            Scotland (excluding oblique forms of Maria found in Latin texts). In
            fact, it is relatively rare even to see "Mary". On the other hand,
            "Marioun" and diminutives in various spellings is found all over the
            place. (You may be interested to know the Latin of Marioun is
            "Mariota".) I could give you various examples later if you're
            interested.

            4. Use period forms of the surname.

            I find these 15th century spellings in Black:

            Santoclair 1407
            Seyntclere 1405
            Seintclere 1445
            Singlar 1454
            Synclere 1470
            Synclare 1482
            Singkler 1491
            Sanclar 1493

            I'd recommend one of the earlier ones -- it appears the forms that
            aren't clearly variations on "Saint-" don't become common until the
            latter half of the century.

            5. Understand that the name "Marioun Seyntclere" (and variants) is an
            excellent Scots-speaking Lowlander's name, not the name of a Gael.
            (Which is lovely and terrific -- we need Lowlanders about to balance
            all the wild Scots. Otherwise all the foreigners will think Scotland
            completely uncivilized ;-)

            Hope this helps!

            Euphrick
            Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
            Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
            http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
            Arval's Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
            Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
            Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
          • EoganOg@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/1/00 10:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... This got my head-noodle to turning and now I wonder..... when did the practice begin in the
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2000
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              In a message dated 2/1/00 10:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              krossa@... writes:

              > 1. Pick only one given name.
              >
              > I know of only two Scots who had double given names before 1600. One
              > was King James VI and one was his son -- not exactly normal people ;-)

              This got my head-noodle to turning and now I wonder..... when did the
              practice begin in the Church of taking new names upon Baptism, Confirmation,
              etc.... anyone know?
              Aye,
              Eogan
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... Like everything, it depends on who, when, where, etc. It appears that in the early days of the Church in Europe some converts in some areas took new
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                At 10:54 PM -0500 2/1/00, EoganOg@... wrote:
                >In a message dated 2/1/00 10:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                >krossa@... writes:
                >
                >> 1. Pick only one given name.
                >>
                >> I know of only two Scots who had double given names before 1600. One
                >> was King James VI and one was his son -- not exactly normal people ;-)
                >
                >This got my head-noodle to turning and now I wonder..... when did the
                >practice begin in the Church of taking new names upon Baptism, Confirmation,
                >etc.... anyone know?

                Like everything, it depends on who, when, where, etc. It appears that
                in the early days of the Church in Europe some converts in some areas
                took new Christian names. But this practice does not seem to have
                continued in later times. (Consider that in times and places where
                infant baptism was practiced it was usual for baptism to coincide
                with first naming, making rather difficult to pick a "new" name at
                that time ;-)

                As for confirmation -- a significant factor here would be whether
                confirmation was a separate sacrament/ritual from baptism at the
                time. Even when it was done at a different time it may or may not
                have involved taking a new name. (Many of our modern practices --
                well, okay, many of the modern practices of the Roman Catholic Church
                in the industrialized west -- are purely modern and aren't reliable
                indicators of the medieval past. The Church doesn't like to
                advertise, but it changed ;-)

                One interesting thing is that the Council of Trent in 1563 required
                priests to baptize children with a name of a saint. If the parents
                hadn't chosen the name of a saint for their child, the priest was
                enjoined to give the child an additional, saint's name. This is what
                caused the rise in the use of double given names. (In some naming
                cultures double given names were unknown before the Council of
                Trent.) Note that this would have affected Catholic cultures --
                Protestant ones didn't much care what the Papists were requiring ;-).

                In particular, this doesn't seem to have had any effect in Scotland
                in the 16th century. Scotland went Protestant in 1560, and while some
                Scots remained Roman Catholics, those that did apparently didn't tend
                to want to give their children non-Saints names in the first place.
                The common Lowland given names were all or nearly all Saints names
                anyway (William, John, etc.) and the Gaelic names also had more than
                enough saints. (Ireland was a virtual saint factory in the early
                Middle Ages...) So priests who knew they were supposed to insist on a
                Saint's name don't seem to have had call to add a second given name
                to fulfill the requirement.

                Well, this doesn't really answer your question, except to say the
                modern practice probably has its roots in modern times.

                Eafric
                Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                Arval's Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
              • nickolas kaugon
                at the risk of nit picking--where did you find a scottish reference to the name selina. sinclairs were a norman family, at least the period pre hugenot
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                  at the risk of nit picking--where did you find a
                  scottish reference to the name selina. sinclairs were
                  a norman family, at least the period pre hugenot
                  sinclairs, so is this a norman nqame--i've never come
                  across it as a scottish name.

                  and re double names--i'm just repeating what an old
                  celtic studies teacher told me but she said that
                  double names go back to the 1500's at least. it was
                  common in the highlands to use your given name as the
                  first name your fathers name(or mothers for a girl) as
                  your middle name and your grandfathers or grandmothers
                  name as your last name. she said that actually mac was
                  not in common usage then except for clan heads or very
                  famous people, especially as every one you would
                  likely meet knew everyone's clan anyway. people often
                  had a familiar last name as well describing some
                  prominent feature about them. this is still done in
                  cape breton. the old mabou phone book had so many
                  macdonalds that they listed them by first name and
                  nickname , like red bob macd, silver bob macd, big bob
                  macd, and i kid you not there used to be a drunken bob
                  macd listed.given the level of imbibing in gaelic
                  culture he must have been a prodigious consumer of the
                  cure.

                  --- "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > At 5:19 AM +1100 2/1/00, NanSea wrote:
                  > >Hi,
                  > >Since you are addressing names right now. I have a
                  > <<personal>>
                  > >question. Before I had clue, I picked the name
                  > Selina Marie Sinclair.
                  > >I think I'm leaning toward early 1400's for my time
                  > period. I am
                  > >Scottish. Anything I should do (or can do) to make
                  > this name more
                  > >correctly Scottish?
                  >
                  > Yes, there are several things:
                  >
                  > 1. Pick only one given name.
                  >
                  > I know of only two Scots who had double given names
                  > before 1600. One
                  > was King James VI and one was his son -- not exactly
                  > normal people ;-)
                  >
                  > 2. Pick a given name used in the 1400s.
                  >
                  > Withycombe indicates that Selina doesn't appear in
                  > England until the
                  > 17th century and I find no evidence for it in
                  > Scotland.
                  >
                  > Various forms of Mary, however, were common in
                  > Lowland Scotland in
                  > the 15th century.
                  >
                  > 3. Use period forms of the given name.
                  >
                  > I don't actually find any examples of "Marie" in the
                  > 15th century in
                  > Scotland (excluding oblique forms of Maria found in
                  > Latin texts). In
                  > fact, it is relatively rare even to see "Mary". On
                  > the other hand,
                  > "Marioun" and diminutives in various spellings is
                  > found all over the
                  > place. (You may be interested to know the Latin of
                  > Marioun is
                  > "Mariota".) I could give you various examples later
                  > if you're
                  > interested.
                  >
                  > 4. Use period forms of the surname.
                  >
                  > I find these 15th century spellings in Black:
                  >
                  > Santoclair 1407
                  > Seyntclere 1405
                  > Seintclere 1445
                  > Singlar 1454
                  > Synclere 1470
                  > Synclare 1482
                  > Singkler 1491
                  > Sanclar 1493
                  >
                  > I'd recommend one of the earlier ones -- it appears
                  > the forms that
                  > aren't clearly variations on "Saint-" don't become
                  > common until the
                  > latter half of the century.
                  >
                  > 5. Understand that the name "Marioun Seyntclere"
                  > (and variants) is an
                  > excellent Scots-speaking Lowlander's name, not the
                  > name of a Gael.
                  > (Which is lovely and terrific -- we need Lowlanders
                  > about to balance
                  > all the wild Scots. Otherwise all the foreigners
                  > will think Scotland
                  > completely uncivilized ;-)
                  >
                  > Hope this helps!
                  >
                  > Euphrick
                  > Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                  > Medieval Scotland (including resources for names,
                  > clothing & history):
                  >
                  > http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                  > The most complete index of reliable web articles
                  > about pre-1600 names:
                  > Arval's Medieval Naming Guides -
                  > http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                  > Consultations about re-creating historically
                  > accurate pre-1600 names:
                  > Academy of Saint Gabriel -
                  > http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                  >
                  >
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                  > re-enactment of
                  > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Post messages to
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                • Sharon L. Krossa
                  ... I welcome the picking of nits -- if I ve made mistakes or not been clear, I like to know about it! ... I didn t find a Scottish reference to Selina --
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                    At 10:52 AM -0800 2/2/00, nickolas kaugon wrote:
                    >at the risk of nit picking--

                    I welcome the picking of nits -- if I've made mistakes or not been
                    clear, I like to know about it!

                    >where did you find a
                    >scottish reference to the name selina.

                    I didn't find a Scottish reference to Selina -- that's what I wrote
                    below. I found no evidence it was used in Scotland prior to 1600.
                    (And I have no idea whether it was used after 1600.) I did find an
                    English reference which explicitly said the first known uses in
                    England were 17th century (which supports a theory that it was not
                    used in Scotland before 1600).

                    >sinclairs were
                    >a norman family, at least the period pre hugenot
                    >sinclairs, so is this a norman nqame--i've never come
                    >across it as a scottish name.

                    There are lots of different kinds of "Scottish". "Scottish" does not
                    refer to Gaels alone. So when Anglo-Normans came to Scotland around
                    the 12th century, bringing their names with them, those particular
                    Anglo-Norman names became "Scottish" -- names used by Scots, names
                    used by people living in Scotland.

                    By the 15th century (the period asked about), however, it is no
                    longer helpful to talk of "Normans" or even "Scoto-Normans" in
                    Scotland. The Anglo-Normans who came to Scotland several centuries
                    earlier had begun immediately intermarrying with various of the
                    native already present populations (Gaels, English-speakers, etc.).
                    By the 15th century Scotland had two main cultures -- Gaelic-speaking
                    Highland and Scots-speaking Lowland. Both groups included
                    Anglo-Normans among their ancestors, although more so among the
                    Lowlanders than the Highlanders.

                    (The many Sinclairs in Scotland would be a little shocked to be told
                    the name their families have been using for centuries -- in Scotland
                    -- wasn't Scottish ;-)

                    >and re double names--i'm just repeating what an old
                    >celtic studies teacher told me but she said that
                    >double names go back to the 1500's at least. it was
                    >common in the highlands to use your given name as the
                    >first name your fathers name(or mothers for a girl) as
                    >your middle name and your grandfathers or grandmothers
                    >name as your last name. she said that actually mac was
                    >not in common usage then except for clan heads or very
                    >famous people, especially as every one you would
                    >likely meet knew everyone's clan anyway. people often
                    >had a familiar last name as well describing some
                    >prominent feature about them. this is still done in
                    >cape breton. the old mabou phone book had so many
                    >macdonalds that they listed them by first name and
                    >nickname , like red bob macd, silver bob macd, big bob
                    >macd, and i kid you not there used to be a drunken bob
                    >macd listed.given the level of imbibing in gaelic
                    >culture he must have been a prodigious consumer of the
                    >cure.

                    I'm afraid your Celtic studies teacher does not appear to be an
                    expert on medieval Scottish Gaelic naming. (This is not surprising --
                    not very many people make a serious study of it.) Although what you
                    describe is fairly accurate for modern Gaelic naming practices.

                    But I've found no evidence, other than James VI and his son, of
                    double given names in Scotland prior to 1600, especially not in
                    Gaelic naming.

                    First, you have to understand the difference between a given name and
                    a byname. For example, in the following pattern (which you describe
                    above)

                    <your-name> <father's-name> <father's-father's-name>

                    <your-name> is a given name.

                    The other two are bynames. Specifically, they would be "unmarked
                    patronymic bynames" (that is, like "mac <father's-name>" only without
                    the "mac"). These are names that describe the individual, describe
                    them as being their father's child, etc. They are not like our modern
                    middle names -- not names chosen and given to a child at their naming
                    like their given name (first name). In the above <father's-name> is a
                    byname just like "Mor" (big) or "Dubh" (black) would be bynames.

                    Modernly the most typical pattern in Scottish Gaelic is to use
                    unmarked patronymic (or matronymic -- with your mother's name)
                    bynames. However there is little or no period evidence for unmarked
                    patronymic bynames in Scottish Gaelic (or, I think, Irish Gaelic).
                    There is, however, plenty of evidence for patronymic bynames of the
                    type "mac <father's-name>" and "inghean <father's-name>" (for women).
                    (Note that in the Middle Ages use of matronymics was vanishingly rare
                    in Gaelic.)

                    You're right that Scottish Gaels in the Middle Ages did not indicate
                    their clan membership in their Gaelic bynames. But *in Gaelic* "mac
                    <father's-name>" bynames said who your father was -- *nothing* about
                    your clan. For example, "Donnchadh mac Domhnaill" could belong to any
                    clan.

                    Modernly things are different, mainly due to the encroachment of
                    Scots/English naming patterns. There now exists in Gaelic inherited
                    surnames that are considered to indicate clan membership. But as said
                    -- this is modern, and doesn't tell us about period names.

                    Modernly in Scotland the Western Isles phone book also has an
                    additional column because the modern inherited surnames are so
                    useless. People are identified by their nickname, their
                    patronymic/matronymic byname, or their farm as well as by the more
                    standard surname, given name, address and phone number. But, again,
                    this is modern.

                    Medieval Gaels did use descriptive bynames (with meanings such as
                    red, black, big, small, etc.) as well as patronymics, although
                    patronymics were much more common (and even those using descriptive
                    bynames also had and often used patronymics).

                    If you're interested in historical Scottish Gaelic naming, I
                    recommend the articles that can be found at my web site and at
                    Arval's. In particular, you may find "A Simple Guide to Constructing
                    12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names" interesting, as it is based on
                    the actual names of Scottish Gaels found in the 12th century Gaelic
                    Notes in the Book of Deer. There are also several articles on Irish
                    Gaelic naming that discuss naming patterns found in historical
                    documents. (See my .sig for addresses)

                    Sharon
                    ska Effrick

                    >--- "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
                    >wrote:
                    >> Yes, there are several things:
                    >>
                    >> 1. Pick only one given name.
                    >>
                    >> I know of only two Scots who had double given names
                    >> before 1600. One
                    >> was King James VI and one was his son -- not exactly
                    >> normal people ;-)
                    >>
                    >> 2. Pick a given name used in the 1400s.
                    >>
                    >> Withycombe indicates that Selina doesn't appear in
                    >> England until the
                    >> 17th century and I find no evidence for it in
                    >> Scotland.
                    >>
                    >> Various forms of Mary, however, were common in
                    >> Lowland Scotland in
                    >> the 15th century.
                    >>
                    >> 3. Use period forms of the given name.
                    >>
                    >> I don't actually find any examples of "Marie" in the
                    >> 15th century in
                    >> Scotland (excluding oblique forms of Maria found in
                    >> Latin texts). In
                    >> fact, it is relatively rare even to see "Mary". On
                    >> the other hand,
                    >> "Marioun" and diminutives in various spellings is
                    >> found all over the
                    >> place. (You may be interested to know the Latin of
                    >> Marioun is
                    >> "Mariota".) I could give you various examples later
                    >> if you're
                    >> interested.
                    >>
                    >> 4. Use period forms of the surname.
                    >>
                    >> I find these 15th century spellings in Black:
                    >>
                    >> Santoclair 1407
                    >> Seyntclere 1405
                    >> Seintclere 1445
                    >> Singlar 1454
                    >> Synclere 1470
                    >> Synclare 1482
                    >> Singkler 1491
                    >> Sanclar 1493
                    >>
                    >> I'd recommend one of the earlier ones -- it appears
                    >> the forms that
                    >> aren't clearly variations on "Saint-" don't become
                    >> common until the
                    >> latter half of the century.
                    >>
                    >> 5. Understand that the name "Marioun Seyntclere"
                    >> (and variants) is an
                    >> excellent Scots-speaking Lowlander's name, not the
                    >> name of a Gael.
                    >> (Which is lovely and terrific -- we need Lowlanders
                    >> about to balance
                    >> all the wild Scots. Otherwise all the foreigners
                    >> will think Scotland
                    >> completely uncivilized ;-)
                    Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                    Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                    http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                    The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                    Arval's Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                    Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                    Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                  • Leairna
                    Sharon Wrote As regards the given name, what is the source for Leairn ? Something strikes me as un-Gaelic about that particular string of vowels, so you
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 10, 2000
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                      Sharon Wrote>>>

                      As regards the given name, what is the source for "Leairn"? Something
                      strikes me as un-Gaelic about that particular string of vowels, so
                      you should double check this. (I couldn't find it in any of the
                      online or paper sources I checked.)

                      I'd be happy to consult further on historical plausibility for
                      Scottish names if you're interested. (Some people just want to
                      register, and that's fine too :-) <<<<
                      ************* ******* ******** *******
                      *******
                      Well hello group, sorry it has taken me so long to type back, but work has
                      been nuts.

                      So, let me give you the low down of the name leairna... That is how it
                      sounds in English when spoken (or so I was told) so that is how I spell it,
                      when I type to groups, since not everyone is fluent in the way Gaelic
                      sounds. The following is what information I have at hand on the name and
                      its background. Oh and remember I realize that I cannot submit this as a
                      female name, so the feminization is a moot point.

                      This info is from the Ainmean Chloinne, Scottish Gaelic Names for children
                      by Peadar Morgan
                      Latharna
                      Rare, adopted from the district name of Latharna (Lorne) in Argile, which
                      commemorates Latharn (Loran) the founder of Cineal Lathairn, 1 of the 3 main
                      ruling septs in the early Scottish Kingdome of Da`l Raita.

                      When I did my research (At home on a different computer) I was able to pull
                      up lots of information on Dal Raita, which I used as my main documentation
                      for trying to pass Leairna, aka Latharna. SO, since way back pre 12th
                      century, they did not feminize male names, I am fine with passing a male
                      name with say, the red added to it.

                      I just received my congratulatory letter from the laurels saying I was given
                      Deredere or something close, (English spelling to follow, for the Gaelic I
                      can't spell) Nic Kenna. But since I have been Leairna for the last 7 years,
                      I can't see changing what everyone calls me.

                      So, Sharon, yes please, any help you can offer with this would be greatly
                      appreciated. I am heading off now, to go find some info on dal raita to try
                      to get you more info.

                      Take care,
                      Leairna. (Who would like to know if that is really how you pronounce
                      Latharna)





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                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      Greetings! I have no idea whether Leairna is really how you pronounce Latharna , since I am not sure how you are pronouncing Leairna . However, modern
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 15, 2000
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                        Greetings!

                        I have no idea whether "Leairna" is really how you pronounce
                        "Latharna", since I am not sure how you are pronouncing "Leairna".
                        However, modern "Latharna" would be pronounced, very roughly,
                        \LAH-ahrn-ah\ (with the \ah\s pronounced as in "oo, ah" or "Say ah",
                        etc.)

                        But, as indicated, this is modern. This evident for two reasons.
                        First, Scottish Gaelic did not make names feminine by adding "-a" to
                        the end. (It still doesn't, actually, as far as I can tell -- my
                        suspicion is that Latharna is not a Gaelic feminization of Latharn,
                        but rather a Gaelic adaption of modern English Lorna through
                        association with the Gaelic for the place name Lorne.) Second,
                        "Lath(a/u)rn[a]" is the modern Gaelic spelling of the place name
                        "Lorne" ("Lorne" being the modern English/Scots spelling), it is not
                        the medieval Gaelic spelling of the man Lorne was named after.

                        In the Dalriada period there were three ruling kindreds. One of them
                        was the "Cene/l Loairn", named for someone named "Loarn". I've only
                        ever seen the name in the phrase "Cene/l Loairn" or in a genealogy of
                        the Cene/l Loairn's namesake. So the ancestor of Cene/l Loairn seems
                        to be the only known man named "Loarn". This doesn't make it a choice
                        I can recommend for anyone seeking a historically plausible name.

                        There is another problem that makes me hesitate to recommend this
                        name. The vowel combination "oa" is highly unusual in Gaelic. (So
                        unusual that modern Gaelic has dropped it altogether in the name,
                        changing Early Gaelic "Loairn" to modern Scottish Gaelic "Latharn"
                        (and variants)). Note that Early Gaelic "Loarn" would have been
                        pronounced roughly the same as the modern Gaelic "Latharn" --
                        \LAH-ahrn\ -- through the vowel quality might have been somewhat
                        different. This makes me wonder about the precise origins and use of
                        this name -- personally I'd like to be more sure of it before I would
                        recommend it for historical recreation.

                        Anyway, at best I would say it *might* be possible (if not very
                        probable) for a very early medieval Scottish Gael.

                        Regarding changing names after 7 years -- I know a woman who changed
                        her name very successfully after more than two decades in the SCA,
                        including becoming not only a peer but a very famous and published
                        peer. She reports that very quickly nearly everyone knew and used her
                        new name. Her observation, based on her own experience and that of
                        others, is that changing names is only difficult if the person doing
                        the changing doesn't particularly want to change (so is doing it for
                        external, rather than internal, motivations). Which is alright --
                        people understandably get attached to the names they use, after all.

                        If the situation is that you don't want to change your name, that's
                        one thing. But if you *would* like to change name and are worried it
                        will be too big a hassle to get the rest of the Society to cooperate,
                        I encourage you to go ahead and change your name. You may wish to do
                        a keyword search of rec.org.sca via deja-news on this topic ("name"
                        and "change") and the names "Tangwystyl" and/or "Heather Jones" --
                        she has posted her name-change experiences there a number of times
                        and has some good suggestions for how to do it successfully.

                        Regarding a descriptive byname. "Red" would be "Ruad" (early period)
                        or "Ruadh" (late period). Pronunciation before around 1200 would be
                        very roughly \ROO-ahth\ (with \oo\ as in "kangaroo", rhymes with
                        "boo", and \th\ like the "th" in English "them" rather than the "th"
                        in English "with"), later it would be very roughly \ROO-ahgh\. Ruad
                        and later Ruadh would work in both feminine and masculine names.

                        So, putting it together, a very early masculine name (assuming normal
                        people used Loarn) might have been

                        Loarn Ruad

                        But again, based on my current knowledge, I recommend selecting
                        another given name if you have a strong interest in historical
                        plausibility or a middle or late period persona. There are a number
                        of lists of both Scottish and Irish (lots more Irish) women's given
                        names at Arval's Medieval Names Archive (see .sig)

                        Affrick
                        mka Sharon

                        At 9:58 AM -0800 2/10/00, Leairna wrote:
                        >Well hello group, sorry it has taken me so long to type back, but work has
                        >been nuts.
                        >
                        >So, let me give you the low down of the name leairna... That is how it
                        >sounds in English when spoken (or so I was told) so that is how I spell it,
                        >when I type to groups, since not everyone is fluent in the way Gaelic
                        >sounds. The following is what information I have at hand on the name and
                        >its background. Oh and remember I realize that I cannot submit this as a
                        >female name, so the feminization is a moot point.
                        >
                        >This info is from the Ainmean Chloinne, Scottish Gaelic Names for children
                        >by Peadar Morgan
                        >Latharna
                        >Rare, adopted from the district name of Latharna (Lorne) in Argile, which
                        >commemorates Latharn (Loran) the founder of Cineal Lathairn, 1 of the 3 main
                        >ruling septs in the early Scottish Kingdome of Da`l Raita.
                        >
                        >When I did my research (At home on a different computer) I was able to pull
                        >up lots of information on Dal Raita, which I used as my main documentation
                        >for trying to pass Leairna, aka Latharna. SO, since way back pre 12th
                        >century, they did not feminize male names, I am fine with passing a male
                        >name with say, the red added to it.
                        >
                        >I just received my congratulatory letter from the laurels saying I was given
                        >Deredere or something close, (English spelling to follow, for the Gaelic I
                        >can't spell) Nic Kenna. But since I have been Leairna for the last 7 years,
                        >I can't see changing what everyone calls me.
                        >
                        >So, Sharon, yes please, any help you can offer with this would be greatly
                        >appreciated. I am heading off now, to go find some info on dal raita to try
                        >to get you more info.
                        >
                        >Take care,
                        >Leairna. (Who would like to know if that is really how you pronounce
                        >Latharna)
                        Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
                        Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing & history):
                        http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
                        The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                        The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
                        Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
                        Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
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