Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Specifics on the surcoat or elsewhere to denote the man as an earl?

Expand Messages
  • Diana Cosby
    Setting, 1297 Scotland. I m searching through Scottish battle heraldry and am trying to decide what would allow someone to recognize that a knight was in fact
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Setting, 1297 Scotland.
      I'm searching through Scottish battle heraldry and am trying to
      decide what would allow someone to recognize that a knight was in fact a
      nobel? Was this possible? FYI, my character is an earl. I've read
      that in battle, simplicity seemed to be the norm. So, now I'm confused
      how my heroine would know the guy is a noble, or if possible, an earl.
      Thanks!
      Diana
      www.dianacosby.com <http://www.dianacosby.com/>
      His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
      His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009
      Booksellers Best Finalist
      His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cathal
      If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him. The arms could be displayed
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be
        sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him. The
        arms could be displayed on shield, surcoat, horse trappings, banner or
        by some other means such as a badge on a lance pennon.

        The 'Declaration of Arbroath' signed in 1320 had only eight
        signatories of the estate of Earl which was then both a title and
        feudal designation.
        The rank is generally considered to have evolved from the seven
        regional 'kings' who in turn had advised the High King of Scots.
        There was not a bestowal of the title 'earl' without a feudal tenure.
        i.e. a personal honour with no territorial rights, until 1358 when Sir
        William Douglas was created 1st Earl of Douglas.

        JPratt.

        The nose of a mob is its imagination. By this, at any time, it can be
        quietly led.
        Edgar Allen Poe
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Diana Cosby" <diana@...>
        To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 2:13 PM
        Subject: [albanach] Specifics on the surcoat or elsewhere to denote
        the man as an earl?


        > Setting, 1297 Scotland.
        > I'm searching through Scottish battle heraldry and am trying to
        > decide what would allow someone to recognize that a knight was in
        > fact a
        > nobel? Was this possible? FYI, my character is an earl. I've read
        > that in battle, simplicity seemed to be the norm. So, now I'm
        > confused
        > how my heroine would know the guy is a noble, or if possible, an
        > earl.
        > Thanks!
        > Diana
        > www.dianacosby.com <http://www.dianacosby.com/>
        > His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
        > His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009
        > Booksellers Best Finalist
        > His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD. Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Diana Cosby
        ... ~So, if I m understanding you correctly, when the woman sees arms displayed on his shield, she would know he s a noble, correct? ... ~Interesting, thank
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Cathal wrote:

          >If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him. The arms could be displayed on shield, surcoat, horse trappings, banner or by some other means such as a badge on a lance pennon.
          >
          >
          ~So, if I'm understanding you correctly, when the woman sees arms
          displayed on his shield, she would know he's a noble, correct?

          >The 'Declaration of Arbroath' signed in 1320 had only eight signatories of the estate of Earl which was then both a title and feudal designation. The rank is generally considered to have evolved from the seven regional 'kings' who in turn had advised the High King of Scots. There was not a bestowal of the title 'earl' without a feudal tenure.
          >i.e. a personal honour with no territorial rights, until 1358 when Sir William Douglas was created 1st Earl of Douglas.
          >
          >
          ~Interesting, thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I hope
          you have a wonderful holiday season!
          Sincerely,

          Diana
          > www.dianacosby.com <http://www.dianacosby.com/>
          > His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
          > His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009
          > Booksellers Best Finalist
          > His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011
        • Robert Sehon
          Diana,   I would say that is probably true.  Remember, there actually were not many holders of arms.  Some would be noble, some would be knightly and the
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Diana,
             
            I would say that is probably true.  Remember, there actually were not many holders of arms.  Some would be noble, some would be knightly and the few others who held arms would be men at arms who were mostly all common.  This was a relatively small social/fighting group in practice.  Most armies were composed mostly of infantry, archers, and sappers/engineers.  The cavalry was the armored knight, but these men were few, due to the high cost of arming themselves.  I'd recommend the various short works by Ewart Oakshott as a good short reference.
             
            RPS

            --- On Wed, 12/23/09, Diana Cosby <diana@...> wrote:


            From: Diana Cosby <diana@...>
            Subject: Re: [albanach] Specifics on the surcoat or elsewhere to denote the man as an earl? - JPratt
            To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 2:22 PM


             



            Cathal wrote:

            >If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him. The arms could be displayed on shield, surcoat, horse trappings, banner or by some other means such as a badge on a lance pennon.
            >
            >
            ~So, if I'm understanding you correctly, when the woman sees arms
            displayed on his shield, she would know he's a noble, correct?

            >The 'Declaration of Arbroath' signed in 1320 had only eight signatories of the estate of Earl which was then both a title and feudal designation. The rank is generally considered to have evolved from the seven regional 'kings' who in turn had advised the High King of Scots. There was not a bestowal of the title 'earl' without a feudal tenure.
            >i.e. a personal honour with no territorial rights, until 1358 when Sir William Douglas was created 1st Earl of Douglas.
            >
            >
            ~Interesting, thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I hope
            you have a wonderful holiday season!
            Sincerely,

            Diana
            > www.dianacosby. com <http://www.dianacos by.com/>
            > His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
            > His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009
            > Booksellers Best Finalist
            > His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Cathal
            ... If the arms were well enough known, then yes. The wearing of coat armour usually indicated a basic degree of social status, but it was the renown
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              >
              >>If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be
              >>sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him.
              >>The arms could be displayed on shield, surcoat, horse trappings,
              >>banner or by some other means such as a badge on a lance pennon.
              >>
              >>
              > ~So, if I'm understanding you correctly, when the woman sees arms
              > displayed on his shield, she would know he's a noble, correct?

              If the arms were well enough known, then yes. The wearing of coat
              armour usually indicated a basic degree of social status, but it was
              the renown attendant to those arms that further identified him. If
              the man was an Earl, then chances are a person of upper class would
              recognize which arms adhered to which title. With only eight holders
              of Earldoms in the period you indicated and those eight being
              generally closely associated with the King of Scots I'll hazard to say
              she would probably know him or at least the House. Remember the full
              blazon would only be carried by the holder of the honour and not by
              any of his minions. The arms, as the old saying goes, make the man.

              Think of it along the ability of modern sports fans being able to
              identify their favorites by their uniform numbers. They might mistake
              the face, but the apparel and number on it would help identification.
              >
              >>The 'Declaration of Arbroath' signed in 1320 had only eight
              >>signatories of the estate of Earl which was then both a title and
              >>feudal designation. The rank is generally considered to have
              >>evolved from the seven regional 'kings' who in turn had advised the
              >>High King of Scots. There was not a bestowal of the title 'earl'
              >>without a feudal tenure.
              >>i.e. a personal honour with no territorial rights, until 1358 when
              >>Sir William Douglas was created 1st Earl of Douglas.
              >>
              >>
              > ~Interesting, thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I
              > hope
              > you have a wonderful holiday season!
              > Sincerely,
              >
              > Diana

              Glad to have helped. Have a good holiday yourself.

              JPratt.
            • Diana Cosby
              ... ~Thank you very much. I have E. Oakshott s books here. I ll look through them. Thank you for your time and have a wonderful holiday season! Diana
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Robert Sehon wrote:

                >Diana,
                >
                >I would say that is probably true. Remember, there actually were not many holders of arms. Some would be noble, some would be knightly and the few others who held arms would be men at arms who were mostly all common. This was a relatively small social/fighting group in practice. Most armies were composed mostly of infantry, archers, and sappers/engineers. The cavalry was the armored knight, but these men were few, due to the high cost of arming themselves. I'd recommend the various short works by Ewart Oakshott as a good short reference.
                >
                >
                >
                ~Thank you very much. I have E. Oakshott's books here. I'll look
                through them. Thank you for your time and have a wonderful holiday season!

                Diana

                www.dianacosby. com <http://www.dianacos by.com/>
                His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
                His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009 Booksellers Best Finalist
                His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011
              • Diana Cosby
                ... ~So, if the woman catches the image of a green fir upon a silver shield, then on closer inspection, notes a sword bendways supporting an imperial crown
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Cathal wrote:

                  >If the arms were well enough known, then yes. The wearing of coat
                  >armour usually indicated a basic degree of social status, but it was
                  >the renown attendant to those arms that further identified him.
                  >
                  ~So, if the woman catches the image of a green fir upon a silver shield,
                  then on closer inspection, notes a sword bendways supporting an imperial
                  crown proper on its point, and a blue canton, would that would be a
                  correct thought?

                  Thank you for your time. Happy Holidays!

                  Diana


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cathal
                  ... Quite probably. Formal knowledge of heraldic blazon was not always present; however the renown of the arms would be a possible enhancement to recognition.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > ~So, if the woman catches the image of a green fir upon a silver
                    > shield,
                    > then on closer inspection, notes a sword bendways supporting an
                    > imperial
                    > crown proper on its point, and a blue canton, would that would be a
                    > correct thought?
                    >
                    > Thank you for your time. Happy Holidays!
                    >
                    > Diana
                    >
                    Quite probably. Formal knowledge of heraldic blazon was not always
                    present;
                    however the renown of the arms would be a possible enhancement to
                    recognition.

                    JPratt.
                  • Diana Cosby
                    ... ~Great, thank you very much for all of your help! Happy Holidays and may your New Years be the best yet! Diana www.dianacosby.com
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Cathal wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >>~So, if the woman catches the image of a green fir upon a silver
                      >>shield,
                      >>then on closer inspection, notes a sword bendways supporting an
                      >>imperial
                      >>crown proper on its point, and a blue canton, would that would be a
                      >>correct thought?
                      >>
                      >>Thank you for your time. Happy Holidays!
                      >>
                      >>Diana
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >Quite probably. Formal knowledge of heraldic blazon was not always
                      >present; however the renown of the arms would be a possible enhancement to
                      >recognition.
                      >
                      >
                      ~Great, thank you very much for all of your help! Happy Holidays and
                      may your New Years be the best yet!

                      Diana
                      www.dianacosby.com <http://www.dianacosby.com/>
                      His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
                      His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review - 2009
                      Booksellers Best Finalist
                      His Conquest - Nov 2010 / His Destiny - Nov 2011


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      ... I ll just emphasize that the analogy is to uniform numbers --and without the modern practice of fans buying jerseys with the relevant favorite s number--
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 3:47 PM -0500 12/23/09, Cathal wrote:
                        > >
                        > >>If the character is an Earl, then his personal armoury should be
                        > >>sufficient for another person of social status to recognize him.
                        > >>The arms could be displayed on shield, surcoat, horse trappings,
                        > >>banner or by some other means such as a badge on a lance pennon.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > > ~So, if I'm understanding you correctly, when the woman sees arms
                        > > displayed on his shield, she would know he's a noble, correct?
                        >
                        >If the arms were well enough known, then yes. The wearing of coat
                        >armour usually indicated a basic degree of social status, but it was
                        >the renown attendant to those arms that further identified him. If
                        >the man was an Earl, then chances are a person of upper class would
                        >recognize which arms adhered to which title. With only eight holders
                        >of Earldoms in the period you indicated and those eight being
                        >generally closely associated with the King of Scots I'll hazard to say
                        >she would probably know him or at least the House. Remember the full
                        >blazon would only be carried by the holder of the honour and not by
                        >any of his minions. The arms, as the old saying goes, make the man.
                        >
                        >Think of it along the ability of modern sports fans being able to
                        >identify their favorites by their uniform numbers. They might mistake
                        >the face, but the apparel and number on it would help identification.

                        I'll just emphasize that the analogy is to uniform numbers --and
                        without the modern practice of fans buying jerseys with the relevant
                        favorite's number-- rather than to sports team uniforms.

                        Basically, the only person who wore the arms of the Earl of X was the
                        earl of X himself and his (personal) herald(s) -- and even then the
                        herald wore the arms (and was dressed) in a way that he was
                        identifiably a herald, so no confusing of a herald for his lord.

                        Servants and retainers of the Earl of X might wear the Earl of X's
                        badge, but his badge would be quite different from his arms (it
                        wasn't just his arms with some distinguishing mark, but rather a
                        different design than the design of his arms). And such a badge would
                        usually be displayed/worn rather differently than how the Earl
                        displayed/wore his arms. (For example, I don't think people put their
                        lord's badge on their shield in the way said lord might put his arms
                        on his shield.)

                        So, in battle or otherwise, the scenario would be your heroine sees
                        somebody, say, fighting with a shield with the Earl of X's arms on
                        them, and says to herself "Oh, look, Self! There is the Earl of X".

                        Sharon
                        --
                        Sharon Krossa, PhD - skrossa-yg@...
                        Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                        Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                        Support MedievalScotland.org when shopping at Amazon:
                        US: http://www.amazon.com/?tag=medievalscotland
                        UK: http://www.amazon.co.uk/?tag=medievalscotla02
                        The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                        The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.