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Need Help with Laird's Heir...

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  • Ingela F. Hyatt
    Greetings Everyone, My name is Ingela F. Hyatt, and I joined about a month ago because my next book takes place completely in Scotland (and because Cindy
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 24, 2006
      Greetings Everyone,

      My name is Ingela F. Hyatt, and I joined about a month ago because my next book takes place completely in Scotland (and because Cindy Vallar recommended this group).

      I was wondering if you could help me with something.

      In my WIP, the hero is the fourth son of the MacLochlainn, and his father and three brothers were killed in an ambush by another clan, so he is being brought home to look after the clan. Now, the Eldest son (who's dead) has a baby boy.

      What I want to know would the eldest's son be the next Laird? And if so, would that make the hero the guardian? And if so, what would the clan call him? What would his title be? And how old would the boy have to be before he could take over as Laird?

      Sorry for asking so many questions... LOL But if anyone can give me some answers, that would be great! I'd be happy to include all who help in the acknowledgements of this book.

      Thanks so much.

      Ingela

      A KNIGHT OF PASSION -- Now in PRINT!
      Order your copy: http://www.IngelaHyatt.com/akop.html
      ************************************
      "...I didn't want this story to end... Go now and pick this one up!"
      ---A Recommended Read from JoyfullyReviewed.com
      ************************************
      "...an intriguing plot, terrific characters...the sense you've been transported back in time..."
      ---A Recommended Read from Fallen Angel Reviews
      ************************************

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marcus mac Pharlain
      Ingala, Interesting question, and I think I have the answer. The Eldest Brother s baby boy would be the rightful heir; however, he is too young to assume the
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 26, 2006
        Ingala,

        Interesting question, and I think I have the answer.

        The Eldest Brother's baby boy would be the rightful heir; however, he is too
        young to assume the responsibility. Therefore, your main character, the
        fourth son, would only inherit should his Elder Brother's Son not make
        adulthood and produce an heir of his own. Until then, the 4 son is in the
        line of succession for the clan.

        That said, who would oversee the clan until the boy is of proper age to
        assume control? That person would be officially called the Steward, as a
        temporary Laird, until the proper Heir is of age or ability to assume
        control. In this case, that person is usually responsible for the raising
        and education of the Heir. Stewards were commonly designated for Lairds who
        went off to War, but in this case it sounds sudden, so the Clan would
        immediately look to the Younger Brother of age to be that Steward until the
        rightful Heir is of age to become Laird or fails to survive to adulthood and
        produce his own heir.

        Many a tretcherous story lines could evolve from this.

        Marcus





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ingela F. Hyatt
        Greetings Marcus, Thank you so much for answering my question and in detail. This is perfect! I would like to include you in the acknowledgements of my book.
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 27, 2006
          Greetings Marcus,

          Thank you so much for answering my question and in detail.

          This is perfect!

          I would like to include you in the acknowledgements of my book. If you could email me off list with your full name etc., I will happily include it, as this IS essential to the story.

          Author@...

          Again, thank you for helping me out.

          Sincerely,

          Ingela
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Marcus mac Pharlain
          To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 11:50 AM
          Subject: [albanach] Re:Need Help with Laird's Heir...


          Ingala,

          Interesting question, and I think I have the answer.

          The Eldest Brother's baby boy would be the rightful heir; however, he is too
          young to assume the responsibility. Therefore, your main character, the
          fourth son, would only inherit should his Elder Brother's Son not make
          adulthood and produce an heir of his own. Until then, the 4 son is in the
          line of succession for the clan.

          That said, who would oversee the clan until the boy is of proper age to
          assume control? That person would be officially called the Steward, as a
          temporary Laird, until the proper Heir is of age or ability to assume
          control. In this case, that person is usually responsible for the raising
          and education of the Heir. Stewards were commonly designated for Lairds who
          went off to War, but in this case it sounds sudden, so the Clan would
          immediately look to the Younger Brother of age to be that Steward until the
          rightful Heir is of age to become Laird or fails to survive to adulthood and
          produce his own heir.

          Many a tretcherous story lines could evolve from this.

          Marcus





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
          Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sharon L. Krossa
          ... Note that the style of _the_ MacX for chiefs of Highland clans (with MacX style chiefly titles) is really a modern English language style, not
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 27, 2006
            At 5:34 PM -0800 11/24/06, Ingela F. Hyatt wrote:
            >Greetings Everyone,
            >
            >My name is Ingela F. Hyatt, and I joined about a month ago because
            >my next book takes place completely in Scotland (and because Cindy
            >Vallar recommended this group).
            >
            >I was wondering if you could help me with something.
            >
            >In my WIP, the hero is the fourth son of the MacLochlainn,

            Note that the style of "_the_ MacX" for chiefs of Highland clans
            (with MacX style chiefly titles) is really a modern English language
            style, not particularly reflective of historical practice. The chief
            of Clann Domhnaill (Clan MacDonald) was "Mac Domhnaill"
            ('MacDonald'), not "an Mac Domhnaill" ('the MacDonald'), and to the
            best of my knowledge in the Middle Ages they didn't use "the" for
            MacX titled Highland chiefs, even when speaking Scots/English.

            >and his
            >father and three brothers were killed in an ambush by another clan,
            >so he is being brought home to look after the clan. Now, the Eldest
            >son (who's dead) has a baby boy.
            >
            >What I want to know would the eldest's son be the next Laird? And
            >if so, would that make the hero the guardian? And if so, what would
            >the clan call him? What would his title be? And how old would the
            >boy have to be before he could take over as Laird?

            As discussed earlier in another thread on this mailing list, there is
            a difference between noble titles and clan chiefships.

            Noble titles (Earl, Lord/Laird, etc.) in the Highlands went by the
            exact same laws as noble titles in the Lowlands, specifically, male
            primogeniture of like degree (the eldest surviving son inherited, and
            failing sons, the eldest surviving daughter).

            Clan chiefships, on the other hand, were not something governed by
            the general laws of Scotland, but were specific to Highland culture,
            and the question of how they were passed from one chief to the next
            is more complex. In the early Middle Ages they followed the rules of
            what is usually called in English "tanistry" (the successor chosen by
            the derb fine from among eligible [male] relatives), but in the later
            Middle Ages they seem to have followed a hybrid of tanistry and male
            primogeniture (whether of like degree or male only I don't myself
            know for sure, though I suspect male only), in which in general
            inheritance of the chiefship followed primogeniture, with the
            occasional deviation when primogeniture did not produce a
            satisfactory result.

            Add to this that essentially anyone who held/owned land outside a
            burgh was a "laird", and that land inheritance followed the same
            inheritance pattern (in both Highlands and Lowlands), which was again
            male primogeniture of like degree (only with, failing sons, all
            daughters inheriting equally, dividing the land).

            All of which is to say, being the clan chief is not the same as being
            the laird, and the baby boy you describe would inherit his father's
            land and so the lairdship, while he may or may not inherit the clan
            chiefship.

            The hero may or may not be the baby's guardian (or rather, his tutor,
            to use the medieval Scots legal term for the person in charge of a
            minor male under age 14, or female under age 12, and their property)
            -- it would depend on whether his father had designated someone else
            (or anyone at all) to be his tutor in his will, etc.

            The basics are that the father could name most anyone he wanted (male
            or female) as tutor to his child. If the father had not named anyone
            at all, then the nearest agnate relative aged 25 or more would be
            appointed the child's tutor by the courts (that is, the nearest male
            related to the father in the male line). Failing such a person (or
            such a person accepting the role), a tutor (male or female) would be
            appointed by the king. Further, there appears to have been a strong
            tendency to consider the mother the appropriate person to be tutor to
            a child, unless the father had named someone else tutor in his will.
            However, if the mother (or any female tutor) married, then she could
            no longer remain tutor.

            (I won't go into what happens between age 12/14 and 21, as that
            doesn't appear to be relevant to your scenario...)

            >Sorry for asking so many questions... LOL But if anyone can give
            >me some answers, that would be great!

            May I recommend the books in my Scottish Medieval Bibliography as a
            good place to start when researching a novel set in medieval
            Scotland? See
            http://MedievalScotland.org/scotbiblio/

            Specifically on the issue of the laws and practices regarding
            guardianship of minors (and, especially, their property) in late
            medieval Scotland, among other sources in about two months you will
            be able to download a pdf version of my dissertation, which includes
            discussion of this very matter in chapter 3 (with references to
            sources for further investigation). Until then, the only handy
            references I have are to more primary sources, such as _The Practicks
            of Sir James Balfour of Pittendreich_ and Stair's _The Institutions
            of the Law of Scotland_.

            Finally, I'll just note that Clann Lochloinn was a real historical
            Gaelic clan, and so there are real historical people who were Mac
            Lochloinn, and their line of succession to lands, titles, and
            chiefship (and who was tutor, etc., to any of them who inherited
            while under the age of 14) is something that can be researched. (I
            always find it kind of interesting that authors who would never dream
            of inventing a wholly fictitious, say, King of England, or Duke of
            York, or other real historical noble title, don't think twice about
            inventing fictitious chiefs of real historical clans...) Also, since
            you don't mention a specific time period, be aware that there has not
            always been a Clann Lochloinn -- the specific Scottish Gaelic clans
            whose names we are familiar with today originated only in the later
            Middle Ages, and some quite late indeed. (I don't know offhand when
            Clann Lochloinn originated, but again, that is something that can be
            researched.)

            Sharon
            --
            Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@...
            Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
            Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
          • Ingela F. Hyatt
            Greetings Sharon, Thank you so much for the additional information. This is really a big help. Though it does seem like there are several possibilities, so
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 28, 2006
              Greetings Sharon,

              Thank you so much for the additional information. This is really a big help.

              Though it does seem like there are several possibilities, so I'm glad I have options. I know that Clann Lochlainn came over from Ireland in the late 1100s to early 1200s. My book takes place in the early 1200s, so I WILL be using my "literary license" and have them a bit more established then they would have been (I shall mentioned this in my Author Notes).

              Actually, I MUCH prefer to have fictional nobleman and clansmen than the real ones, that way you don't offend anyone who might be related to the actual historical ancestors. The only ones I keep real would be Kings, etc... Or when historical characters must take an active roll in my stories. Actually I don't even like using real Castles because sometimes it's very difficult to get the blue prints and figure out where everything is. However customs, the layout of the land, etc... I TRY to get as accurate as possible, as well as making the story as realistic as possible.

              Again, thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it, and will include you in the acknowledgements of my book.

              Sincerely,

              Ingela

              A KNIGHT OF PASSION -- Now in PRINT!
              Order your copy: http://www.IngelaHyatt.com/akop.html
              ************************************
              "...I didn't want this story to end... Go now and pick this one up!"
              ---A Recommended Read from JoyfullyReviewed.com
              ************************************
              "...an intriguing plot, terrific characters...the sense you've been transported back in time..."
              ---A Recommended Read from Fallen Angel Reviews
              ************************************
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sharon L. Krossa
              To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [albanach] Need Help with Laird's Heir...


              At 5:34 PM -0800 11/24/06, Ingela F. Hyatt wrote:
              >Greetings Everyone,
              >
              >My name is Ingela F. Hyatt, and I joined about a month ago because
              >my next book takes place completely in Scotland (and because Cindy
              >Vallar recommended this group).
              >
              >I was wondering if you could help me with something.
              >
              >In my WIP, the hero is the fourth son of the MacLochlainn,

              Note that the style of "_the_ MacX" for chiefs of Highland clans
              (with MacX style chiefly titles) is really a modern English language
              style, not particularly reflective of historical practice. The chief
              of Clann Domhnaill (Clan MacDonald) was "Mac Domhnaill"
              ('MacDonald'), not "an Mac Domhnaill" ('the MacDonald'), and to the
              best of my knowledge in the Middle Ages they didn't use "the" for
              MacX titled Highland chiefs, even when speaking Scots/English.

              >and his
              >father and three brothers were killed in an ambush by another clan,
              >so he is being brought home to look after the clan. Now, the Eldest
              >son (who's dead) has a baby boy.
              >
              >What I want to know would the eldest's son be the next Laird? And
              >if so, would that make the hero the guardian? And if so, what would
              >the clan call him? What would his title be? And how old would the
              >boy have to be before he could take over as Laird?

              As discussed earlier in another thread on this mailing list, there is
              a difference between noble titles and clan chiefships.

              Noble titles (Earl, Lord/Laird, etc.) in the Highlands went by the
              exact same laws as noble titles in the Lowlands, specifically, male
              primogeniture of like degree (the eldest surviving son inherited, and
              failing sons, the eldest surviving daughter).

              Clan chiefships, on the other hand, were not something governed by
              the general laws of Scotland, but were specific to Highland culture,
              and the question of how they were passed from one chief to the next
              is more complex. In the early Middle Ages they followed the rules of
              what is usually called in English "tanistry" (the successor chosen by
              the derb fine from among eligible [male] relatives), but in the later
              Middle Ages they seem to have followed a hybrid of tanistry and male
              primogeniture (whether of like degree or male only I don't myself
              know for sure, though I suspect male only), in which in general
              inheritance of the chiefship followed primogeniture, with the
              occasional deviation when primogeniture did not produce a
              satisfactory result.

              Add to this that essentially anyone who held/owned land outside a
              burgh was a "laird", and that land inheritance followed the same
              inheritance pattern (in both Highlands and Lowlands), which was again
              male primogeniture of like degree (only with, failing sons, all
              daughters inheriting equally, dividing the land).

              All of which is to say, being the clan chief is not the same as being
              the laird, and the baby boy you describe would inherit his father's
              land and so the lairdship, while he may or may not inherit the clan
              chiefship.

              The hero may or may not be the baby's guardian (or rather, his tutor,
              to use the medieval Scots legal term for the person in charge of a
              minor male under age 14, or female under age 12, and their property)
              -- it would depend on whether his father had designated someone else
              (or anyone at all) to be his tutor in his will, etc.

              The basics are that the father could name most anyone he wanted (male
              or female) as tutor to his child. If the father had not named anyone
              at all, then the nearest agnate relative aged 25 or more would be
              appointed the child's tutor by the courts (that is, the nearest male
              related to the father in the male line). Failing such a person (or
              such a person accepting the role), a tutor (male or female) would be
              appointed by the king. Further, there appears to have been a strong
              tendency to consider the mother the appropriate person to be tutor to
              a child, unless the father had named someone else tutor in his will.
              However, if the mother (or any female tutor) married, then she could
              no longer remain tutor.

              (I won't go into what happens between age 12/14 and 21, as that
              doesn't appear to be relevant to your scenario...)

              >Sorry for asking so many questions... LOL But if anyone can give
              >me some answers, that would be great!

              May I recommend the books in my Scottish Medieval Bibliography as a
              good place to start when researching a novel set in medieval
              Scotland? See
              http://MedievalScotland.org/scotbiblio/

              Specifically on the issue of the laws and practices regarding
              guardianship of minors (and, especially, their property) in late
              medieval Scotland, among other sources in about two months you will
              be able to download a pdf version of my dissertation, which includes
              discussion of this very matter in chapter 3 (with references to
              sources for further investigation). Until then, the only handy
              references I have are to more primary sources, such as _The Practicks
              of Sir James Balfour of Pittendreich_ and Stair's _The Institutions
              of the Law of Scotland_.

              Finally, I'll just note that Clann Lochloinn was a real historical
              Gaelic clan, and so there are real historical people who were Mac
              Lochloinn, and their line of succession to lands, titles, and
              chiefship (and who was tutor, etc., to any of them who inherited
              while under the age of 14) is something that can be researched. (I
              always find it kind of interesting that authors who would never dream
              of inventing a wholly fictitious, say, King of England, or Duke of
              York, or other real historical noble title, don't think twice about
              inventing fictitious chiefs of real historical clans...) Also, since
              you don't mention a specific time period, be aware that there has not
              always been a Clann Lochloinn -- the specific Scottish Gaelic clans
              whose names we are familiar with today originated only in the later
              Middle Ages, and some quite late indeed. (I don't know offhand when
              Clann Lochloinn originated, but again, that is something that can be
              researched.)

              Sharon
              --
              Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@...
              Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
              Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
              The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
              The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/


              This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
              Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Diana Cosby
              I am researching Scotland, 1297 and have become fascinated with Andrew De Moray and his part of Scotland s fight for independence. Does anyone have any
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 18, 2009
                I am researching Scotland, 1297 and have become fascinated with
                Andrew De Moray and his part of Scotland's fight for independence. Does
                anyone have any resources they would recommend? My two favorite
                research books that I'm using now are:
                "The Scottish War of Independence," by Evan Macleod Barron
                "Robert Bruce & The Community of The Realm of Scotland," by Geoffrey
                W.S. Barrow

                My sincere thanks for your time.

                Diana
                2009 Booksellers Best Finalist
                www.dianacosby.com
                His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
                His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review
                Title TBA/Nov 2010/Seathan MacGruder; Title/Patrik [Cleary]
                MacGruder/Tentatively Nov 2011]
              • Todd Wilkinson
                Diana,   Whilst not about DeMornay per se, a very good book about the period is Alan Young s Robert the Bruce s Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314 from Tuckwell
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 22, 2009
                  Diana,
                   
                  Whilst not about DeMornay per se, a very good book about the period is Alan Young's Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314 from Tuckwell Press (1998).
                   
                  Regards,

                  Todd
                   
                   
                  "Happy to meet, sorry to part, happy to meet once more!"
                  -- The Bon Accord, motto of Aberdeen, Scotland

                  --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Diana Cosby <diana@...> wrote:


                  From: Diana Cosby <diana@...>
                  Subject: [albanach] Researching Andrew De Moray - resources?
                  To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:51 PM








                  I am researching Scotland, 1297 and have become fascinated with
                  Andrew De Moray and his part of Scotland's fight for independence. Does
                  anyone have any resources they would recommend? My two favorite
                  research books that I'm using now are:
                  "The Scottish War of Independence, " by Evan Macleod Barron
                  "Robert Bruce & The Community of The Realm of Scotland," by Geoffrey
                  W.S. Barrow

                  My sincere thanks for your time.

                  Diana
                  2009 Booksellers Best Finalist
                  www.dianacosby. com
                  His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
                  His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review
                  Title TBA/Nov 2010/Seathan MacGruder; Title/Patrik [Cleary]
                  MacGruder/Tentative ly Nov 2011]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Diana Cosby
                  ... ~Thanks, Todd, I ll definitely go through that. I appreciate your time. Enjoy your evening! Diana 2009 Booksellers Best Finalist www.dianacosby.com His
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 22, 2009
                    Todd Wilkinson wrote:

                    >Diana,
                    >
                    >Whilst not about DeMornay per se, a very good book about the period is Alan Young's Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314 from Tuckwell Press (1998).
                    >
                    >
                    ~Thanks, Todd, I'll definitely go through that. I appreciate your
                    time. Enjoy your evening!

                    Diana
                    2009 Booksellers Best Finalist
                    www.dianacosby.com
                    His Captive/Alexander MacGruder
                    His Woman/Duncan MacGruder - 4 star Romantic Times review
                    Title TBA/Nov 2010/Seathan MacGruder; Title/Patrik [Cleary] MacGruder/Tentatively Nov 2011]
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