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OT Gaelic question

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  • Muirghein
    I know there isn t an historical word for this, since there weren t any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway), but I d like to get as
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 9, 2006
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      I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't
      any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),
      but I'd like to get as close as possible for a
      semi-historical/semi-fantasy setting.

      High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,
      or something else?

      Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to
      not stink :-).

      Thanks!

      Slan,
      Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
      Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
      (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
      opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
    • Dr Ronald McCoy
      Ban-Rìgh Àrd Ronald McCoy rmccoy@ocean.com.au mob: + 61 407 318 911 ... From: Muirghein Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 9, 2006
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        Ban-Rìgh Àrd
        Ronald McCoy
        rmccoy@...
        mob: + 61 407 318 911


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Muirghein <wolfestead@...>
        Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05
        To:albanach@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [albanach] OT Gaelic question

        I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't
        any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),
        but I'd like to get as close as possible for a
        semi-historical/semi-fantasy setting.

        High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,
        or something else?

        Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to
        not stink :-).

        Thanks!

        Slan,
        Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
        Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
        (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
        opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)



        This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Muirghein
        (sending again -- email was being flaky when I sent this the other day, and I never saw it post.) Thanks. I m curious as to how the grammar works out, like why
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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          (sending again -- email was being flaky when I sent this the other
          day, and I never saw it post.)

          Thanks. I'm curious as to how the grammar works out, like why the
          "ard" comes before "righ" but after "ban-righ." Knowing the 'why's
          might help if I need to make further hypothetical constructions.
          That, and I'm just a sucker for knowing how and why things work the
          way they do *G*.

          Slan,
          Muirghein /|\

          At 11:00 PM 11/9/2006, Ronald McCoy wrote:
          >Ban-Rìgh Àrd
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Muirghein
          >Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05
          >Subject: [albanach] OT Gaelic question
          >
          >I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't
          >any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),
          >but I'd like to get as close as possible for a
          >semi-historical/semi-fantasy setting.
          >
          >High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,
          >or something else?
          >
          >Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to
          >not stink :-).
          >
          >Thanks!
        • Erin Cabana
          It would be the word for high before the word for queen. The medieval form of the word for queen is Rigain. Cheers! ~Erin ... From: Muirghein
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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            It would be the word for high before the word for queen. The medieval form of the word for queen is Rigain.


            Cheers!

            ~Erin
            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Muirghein <wolfestead@...>
            To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 24 November, 2006 8:30:39 AM
            Subject: Re: [albanach] OT Gaelic question













            (sending again -- email was being flaky when I sent this the other

            day, and I never saw it post.)



            Thanks. I'm curious as to how the grammar works out, like why the

            "ard" comes before "righ" but after "ban-righ." Knowing the 'why's

            might help if I need to make further hypothetical constructions.

            That, and I'm just a sucker for knowing how and why things work the

            way they do *G*.



            Slan,

            Muirghein /|\



            At 11:00 PM 11/9/2006, Ronald McCoy wrote:

            >Ban-Rìgh Àrd

            >

            >-----Original Message-----

            >From: Muirghein

            >Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05

            >Subject: [albanach] OT Gaelic question

            >

            >I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't

            >any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),

            >but I'd like to get as close as possible for a

            >semi-historical/ semi-fantasy setting.

            >

            >High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,

            >or something else?

            >

            >Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to

            >not stink :-).

            >

            >Thanks!














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          • ebrowder@widomaker.com
            In modern Gaelic, àrd comes in front of the word it modifies and is hyphenated, so I m thinking that it would be ard-banrigh. Queen can be banrigh or
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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              In modern Gaelic, "àrd" comes in front of the word it modifies and is
              hyphenated, so I'm thinking that it would be ard-banrigh. Queen can be banrigh
              or ban-righ. The "a" in ard and in banrigh are lenghtened by a grave accent,
              as ite "i" in "rìgh". The plural of righ is righrean.

              Shel




              Quoting Muirghein <wolfestead@...>:

              > (sending again -- email was being flaky when I sent this the other
              > day, and I never saw it post.)
              >
              > Thanks. I'm curious as to how the grammar works out, like why the
              > "ard" comes before "righ" but after "ban-righ." Knowing the 'why's
              > might help if I need to make further hypothetical constructions.
              > That, and I'm just a sucker for knowing how and why things work the
              > way they do *G*.
              >
              > Slan,
              > Muirghein /|\
              >
              > At 11:00 PM 11/9/2006, Ronald McCoy wrote:
              > >Ban-Rìgh Àrd
              > >
              > >-----Original Message-----
              > >From: Muirghein
              > >Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05
              > >Subject: [albanach] OT Gaelic question
              > >
              > >I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't
              > >any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),
              > >but I'd like to get as close as possible for a
              > >semi-historical/semi-fantasy setting.
              > >
              > >High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,
              > >or something else?
              > >
              > >Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to
              > >not stink :-).
              > >
              > >Thanks!
              >
              >
            • ebrowder@widomaker.com
              I have no Gaelic dictionary earlier than MacAlpines. Where do you find references for older Gaelic? Shel
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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                I have no Gaelic dictionary earlier than MacAlpines. Where do you find
                references for older Gaelic?

                Shel

                Quoting Erin Cabana <arianhrod2@...>:

                >
                > It would be the word for high before the word for queen. The medieval form of
                > the word for queen is Rigain.
                >
                >
                > Cheers!
                >
                > ~Erin
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Muirghein <wolfestead@...>
                > To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, 24 November, 2006 8:30:39 AM
                > Subject: Re: [albanach] OT Gaelic question
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > (sending again -- email was being flaky when I sent this the
                > other
                >
                > day, and I never saw it post.)
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks. I'm curious as to how the grammar works out, like why the
                >
                > "ard" comes before "righ" but after "ban-righ." Knowing the 'why's
                >
                > might help if I need to make further hypothetical constructions.
                >
                > That, and I'm just a sucker for knowing how and why things work the
                >
                > way they do *G*.
                >
                >
                >
                > Slan,
                >
                > Muirghein /|\
                >
                >
                >
                > At 11:00 PM 11/9/2006, Ronald McCoy wrote:
                >
                > >Ban-Rìgh Àrd
                >
                > >
                >
                > >-----Original Message-----
                >
                > >From: Muirghein
                >
                > >Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:04:05
                >
                > >Subject: [albanach] OT Gaelic question
                >
                > >
                >
                > >I know there isn't an historical word for this, since there weren't
                >
                > >any High Queens (that I know of in Gaelic speaking areas, anyway),
                >
                > >but I'd like to get as close as possible for a
                >
                > >semi-historical/ semi-fantasy setting.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >High King is Ard Ri. But would High Queen be Ban Ard Ri, Ard Banri,
                >
                > >or something else?
                >
                > >
                >
                > >Like I said, I know it's not historical, but I'd like my grammar to
                >
                > >not stink :-).
                >
                > >
                >
                > >Thanks!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Kevin Myers
                ... Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic by Alexander MacBain is one place to start. He gives an entry for ri bhinn, ri oghann: a nymph, young lady,
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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                  --- <ebrowder@...> wrote:

                  > I have no Gaelic dictionary earlier than MacAlpines. Where do you
                  > find references for older Gaelic?

                  "Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic" by Alexander MacBain is
                  one place to start. He gives an entry for "ri\bhinn, ri\oghann: a
                  nymph, young lady, quean. [From] Irish ri/oghan, queen, Early Irish,
                  ri/gan, [which is] a derivative of ri\gh, king."

                  "Dwelly's Illustrated Gaelic to English Dictionary" by Edward Dwelly
                  has some archaic words in it but his entry for ribhinn mostly echoes
                  MacBain's entry, but he adds to it "3. serpent 4. beautiful female".
                  Draw your own conclusions :)

                  There is also an online version of the Duil-Belrai dictionary of Old
                  Irish at Sabhal Mor Ostaig's website:

                  http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/duil-belrai/lorg.php

                  Which also gives a definition in Old Irish of ri\gan for queen.

                  This site also provides two dictionaries of Manx Gaelic, at least three
                  of Scots-Gaelic and one Irish plus a few other word lists if you're
                  interested.

                  Sla\n,
                  Cainnech

                  PS. The search engine is in gaelic. "Airson an fhacal "pull down field"
                  a tha seo" = "For the "language in the pull down field" word that is
                  here" then fill in the blank field. Beurla/Bearla is English, Gaidhlig
                  is Scots-Gaelic, Lorg is Search/Find.







                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                • Erin Cabana
                  You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in the late 60 s. It is what we are currently using at the U of Aberdeen for our medieval
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 27, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in the late 60's. It is what we are currently using at the U of Aberdeen for our medieval gaelic class. It's not the best...but it's not that bad either.

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Kevin Myers <dobharchu@...>
                    To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, 25 November, 2006 2:15:03 AM
                    Subject: Re: [albanach] OT Gaelic question













                    --- <ebrowder@widomaker. com> wrote:



                    > I have no Gaelic dictionary earlier than MacAlpines. Where do you

                    > find references for older Gaelic?



                    "Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic" by Alexander MacBain is

                    one place to start. He gives an entry for "ri\bhinn, ri\oghann: a

                    nymph, young lady, quean. [From] Irish ri/oghan, queen, Early Irish,

                    ri/gan, [which is] a derivative of ri\gh, king."



                    "Dwelly's Illustrated Gaelic to English Dictionary" by Edward Dwelly

                    has some archaic words in it but his entry for ribhinn mostly echoes

                    MacBain's entry, but he adds to it "3. serpent 4. beautiful female".

                    Draw your own conclusions :)



                    There is also an online version of the Duil-Belrai dictionary of Old

                    Irish at Sabhal Mor Ostaig's website:



                    http://www.smo. uhi.ac.uk/ sengoidelc/ duil-belrai/ lorg.php



                    Which also gives a definition in Old Irish of ri\gan for queen.



                    This site also provides two dictionaries of Manx Gaelic, at least three

                    of Scots-Gaelic and one Irish plus a few other word lists if you're

                    interested.



                    Sla\n,

                    Cainnech



                    PS. The search engine is in gaelic. "Airson an fhacal "pull down field"

                    a tha seo" = "For the "language in the pull down field" word that is

                    here" then fill in the blank field. Beurla/Bearla is English, Gaidhlig

                    is Scots-Gaelic, Lorg is Search/Find.



                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                    Yahoo! Music Unlimited

                    Access over 1 million songs.

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                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                    ... Do you mean Dictionary of the Irish Language, which is sometimes referred to as DIL ? That is: Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the Irish Language
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 27, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At 2:47 AM -0800 11/27/06, Erin Cabana wrote:
                      >You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in
                      >the late 60's. It is what we are currently using at the U of
                      >Aberdeen for our medieval gaelic class. It's not the best...but it's
                      >not that bad either.

                      Do you mean Dictionary of the Irish Language,
                      which is sometimes referred to as "DIL"? That is:

                      Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the
                      Irish Language Based Mainly On Old And Middle
                      Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,
                      Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original
                      edition, 1913-1976.
                      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotland
                      http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotla02

                      If so, this is actually the best & most
                      comprehensive dictionary for pre-1200 Gaelic
                      there is currently, despite it's flaws. (For
                      those unfamiliar with it, it is, in approach,
                      roughly the equivalent of the OED for Early and
                      Middle Gaelic -- it not only gives definitions,
                      but cites dated examples.) Note, btw, that the
                      editor (or at least the last general editor) is
                      Quin (with only one <n>, not two).

                      Anyway, various resources for Early and Middle
                      Gaelic (aka Old and Middle Irish) can be found
                      listed at
                      http://medievalscotland.org/scotbiblio/languages.shtml#gaelic

                      The _Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic_
                      by Alexander MacBain, mentioned by someone else,
                      is often useful but not entirely to be trusted
                      when it comes to the etymologies -- if one has
                      access to DIL, it is normally to be preferred to
                      MacBain with regard to Early/Middle Gaelic.

                      With regard to the particular question of what
                      the Gaelic for "High Queen" would be, note that
                      whatever the correct term is, the spelling (and
                      possibly even the word) would depend on specific
                      period -- whether you want it in Early Gaelic
                      (600-900), Middle Gaelic (900-1200), Common
                      Gaelic (1200-1700), (modern) Scottish Gaelic, or
                      (modern) Irish.

                      In any case, while I don't know of any Irish high
                      queens, I have found one late medieval Irish text
                      that uses a term for "high queen" (in reference
                      to the wives of Roman emperors), and that term is
                      <airdríghan> (a post-1200 spelling).

                      Sharon

                      PS BTW, I also did Early Gaelic and Middle Gaelic
                      at the University of Aberdeen -- with Colm
                      O'Boyle, who is now retired. (Just missed meeting
                      with him last week when I was in Aberdeen for my
                      graduation, alas!) Hope you're enjoying it as
                      much as I did (though I doubt it, as I had the
                      luxury of auditing, so got to learn without all
                      the stress of worrying about marks ;-)
                      --
                      Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@...
                      Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                      Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
                      The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                    • Erin Cabana
                      No, it;s actually called the Old Irish Workbook. There is also a book by John Straden and Olson Bejin (spelling might be off as my Prof. has horrid hand
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 28, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        No, it;s actually called the Old Irish Workbook. There is also a book by John Straden and Olson Bejin (spelling might be off as my Prof. has horrid hand writting) Called Olr Irish Paradigms, that goes over congigation and definite articles..all that fun stuff.

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Sharon L. Krossa <skrossa-ml@...>
                        To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, 28 November, 2006 4:55:15 AM
                        Subject: Re: [albanach] OT Gaelic question













                        At 2:47 AM -0800 11/27/06, Erin Cabana wrote:

                        >You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in

                        >the late 60's. It is what we are currently using at the U of

                        >Aberdeen for our medieval gaelic class. It's not the best...but it's

                        >not that bad either.



                        Do you mean Dictionary of the Irish Language,

                        which is sometimes referred to as "DIL"? That is:



                        Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the

                        Irish Language Based Mainly On Old And Middle

                        Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,

                        Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original

                        edition, 1913-1976.

                        http://www.amazon. com/exec/ obidos/ASIN/ 0901714291/ ref=nosim/ medievalscotland

                        http://www.amazon. co.uk/exec/ obidos/ASIN/ 0901714291/ ref=nosim/ medievalscotla02



                        If so, this is actually the best & most

                        comprehensive dictionary for pre-1200 Gaelic

                        there is currently, despite it's flaws. (For

                        those unfamiliar with it, it is, in approach,

                        roughly the equivalent of the OED for Early and

                        Middle Gaelic -- it not only gives definitions,

                        but cites dated examples.) Note, btw, that the

                        editor (or at least the last general editor) is

                        Quin (with only one <n>, not two).



                        Anyway, various resources for Early and Middle

                        Gaelic (aka Old and Middle Irish) can be found

                        listed at

                        http://medievalscot land.org/ scotbiblio/ languages. shtml#gaelic



                        The _Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic_

                        by Alexander MacBain, mentioned by someone else,

                        is often useful but not entirely to be trusted

                        when it comes to the etymologies -- if one has

                        access to DIL, it is normally to be preferred to

                        MacBain with regard to Early/Middle Gaelic.



                        With regard to the particular question of what

                        the Gaelic for "High Queen" would be, note that

                        whatever the correct term is, the spelling (and

                        possibly even the word) would depend on specific

                        period -- whether you want it in Early Gaelic

                        (600-900), Middle Gaelic (900-1200), Common

                        Gaelic (1200-1700), (modern) Scottish Gaelic, or

                        (modern) Irish.



                        In any case, while I don't know of any Irish high

                        queens, I have found one late medieval Irish text

                        that uses a term for "high queen" (in reference

                        to the wives of Roman emperors), and that term is

                        <airdríghan> (a post-1200 spelling).



                        Sharon



                        PS BTW, I also did Early Gaelic and Middle Gaelic

                        at the University of Aberdeen -- with Colm

                        O'Boyle, who is now retired. (Just missed meeting

                        with him last week when I was in Aberdeen for my

                        graduation, alas!) Hope you're enjoying it as

                        much as I did (though I doubt it, as I had the

                        luxury of auditing, so got to learn without all

                        the stress of worrying about marks ;-)

                        --

                        Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@Medieval Scotland. org

                        Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:

                        Medieval Scotland - http://www.Medieval Scotland. org/

                        The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:

                        The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/












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                      • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                        Thanks to both of you for the heads up on Dictionaries. Recently got a copy of Harry Potter in Irish Gaelic--and also need to get a modern Irish dictionary.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 28, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks to both of you for the heads up on Dictionaries. Recently got a copy of
                          Harry Potter in Irish Gaelic--and also need to get a modern Irish dictionary.

                          As for a high queen, Peter Tremayne lists one in his latest Sister Fidelma
                          novel. Since Tremayne is the pen name of Peter Beresford Ellis who is a
                          serious scholar of Irish history and this is an oblique reference and not a
                          character in the story, it is probably a result of his research. She is listed
                          as Macha of the Red Tresses and said to be 76th in the line of rulers at Tara.
                          Take it for what it's worth, or write Peter Tremayne (he has a fan club and
                          probably responds to enquiries). He also has an interesting book out
                          "Eyewitnesses to Irish History" under his real name and it consists of quotes
                          from old texts and his comments on them.

                          Tapaidh leibh is beannachd leibh,
                          Shel

                          Quoting "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>:

                          > At 2:47 AM -0800 11/27/06, Erin Cabana wrote:
                          > >You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in
                          > >the late 60's. It is what we are currently using at the U of
                          > >Aberdeen for our medieval gaelic class. It's not the best...but it's
                          > >not that bad either.
                          >
                          > Do you mean Dictionary of the Irish Language,
                          > which is sometimes referred to as "DIL"? That is:
                          >
                          > Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the
                          > Irish Language Based Mainly On Old And Middle
                          > Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,
                          > Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original
                          > edition, 1913-1976.
                          > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotland
                          >
                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotla02
                          >
                          > If so, this is actually the best & most
                          > comprehensive dictionary for pre-1200 Gaelic
                          > there is currently, despite it's flaws. (For
                          > those unfamiliar with it, it is, in approach,
                          > roughly the equivalent of the OED for Early and
                          > Middle Gaelic -- it not only gives definitions,
                          > but cites dated examples.) Note, btw, that the
                          > editor (or at least the last general editor) is
                          > Quin (with only one <n>, not two).
                          >
                          > Anyway, various resources for Early and Middle
                          > Gaelic (aka Old and Middle Irish) can be found
                          > listed at
                          > http://medievalscotland.org/scotbiblio/languages.shtml#gaelic
                          >
                          > The _Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic_
                          > by Alexander MacBain, mentioned by someone else,
                          > is often useful but not entirely to be trusted
                          > when it comes to the etymologies -- if one has
                          > access to DIL, it is normally to be preferred to
                          > MacBain with regard to Early/Middle Gaelic.
                          >
                          > With regard to the particular question of what
                          > the Gaelic for "High Queen" would be, note that
                          > whatever the correct term is, the spelling (and
                          > possibly even the word) would depend on specific
                          > period -- whether you want it in Early Gaelic
                          > (600-900), Middle Gaelic (900-1200), Common
                          > Gaelic (1200-1700), (modern) Scottish Gaelic, or
                          > (modern) Irish.
                          >
                          > In any case, while I don't know of any Irish high
                          > queens, I have found one late medieval Irish text
                          > that uses a term for "high queen" (in reference
                          > to the wives of Roman emperors), and that term is
                          > <airdríghan> (a post-1200 spelling).
                          >
                          > Sharon
                          >
                          > PS BTW, I also did Early Gaelic and Middle Gaelic
                          > at the University of Aberdeen -- with Colm
                          > O'Boyle, who is now retired. (Just missed meeting
                          > with him last week when I was in Aberdeen for my
                          > graduation, alas!) Hope you're enjoying it as
                          > much as I did (though I doubt it, as I had the
                          > luxury of auditing, so got to learn without all
                          > the stress of worrying about marks ;-)
                          > --
                          > Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@...
                          > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                          > Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
                          > The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                          > The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                          >
                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                          ... Actually, Peter Berresford Ellis is not a serious scholar of Irish history -- he is a journalist turned popular mass market historian and novelist whose
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 28, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            At 4:43 AM -0500 11/28/06, Unspecified wrote:
                            >As for a high queen, Peter Tremayne lists one in his latest Sister Fidelma
                            >novel. Since Tremayne is the pen name of Peter Beresford Ellis who is a
                            >serious scholar of Irish history

                            Actually, Peter Berresford Ellis is not a serious scholar of Irish
                            history -- he is a journalist turned popular mass market historian
                            and novelist whose scholarship is actually quite poor. He if fond of
                            leaping to illogical conclusions (especially if those conclusions
                            pander to a New Age audience's prejudices), and his evidence isn't
                            always what he claims it to be. His works, whether fiction or
                            non-fiction, are not reliable sources of historical information --
                            they contain a lot of total nonsense.

                            Unfortunately, he does a very good job of making his non-fiction
                            works appear to have the trappings of scholarship (footnotes,
                            references to primary sources, etc.) without actually being good
                            scholarship, and so has fooled a large segment of the general public
                            (and even some scholars who specialize in other fields) into
                            accepting him as a serious scholar. However, in my experience his
                            works are not at all respected by serious scholars who specialize in
                            those topics.

                            >and this is an oblique reference and not a
                            >character in the story, it is probably a result of his research.

                            And as you hinted, but I will make even more explicit: even if Ellis
                            were not such a poor scholar, it is never safe to assume anything in
                            a fictional novel is accurate history -- even the most careful and
                            scrupulous historical novelists have to make stuff up. (And
                            Ellis/Tremayne is not the most scrupulous...) Such references should
                            be treated as possible clues at best, and not accepted as real
                            history until confirmed from more reliable sources.

                            >She is listed
                            >as Macha of the Red Tresses and said to be 76th in the line of rulers at Tara.

                            I did find a Macha who appears in a story about how Emain Macha (a
                            place name) got its name told in the course of tales about Cu
                            Chulainn, but though in the story she claims a kingship, so far I
                            haven't found anything calling her a "high queen" (or, indeed, even a
                            "queen") or the kingship a "high kingship". However, I haven't done
                            an exhaustive examination, just a quick search through the CELT texts
                            -- a thorough search would take quite a lot of time since there are
                            so many mentions of the place name...

                            So, there appears to be some kernel of truth in this particular claim
                            by Ellis/Tremayne, but how much I couldn't say without spending more
                            time on it than it is worth ;-)

                            Sharon
                            --
                            Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@...
                            Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                            Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
                            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                          • Muirghein
                            ... Well, as I said in the original question, it s for a semi-mythical story :-). What I m trying to do, based on the background of the setting, is find as
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 28, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 08:55 PM 11/27/2006, Sharon wrote:
                              >With regard to the particular question of what
                              >the Gaelic for "High Queen" would be, note that
                              >whatever the correct term is, the spelling (and
                              >possibly even the word) would depend on specific
                              >period -- whether you want it in Early Gaelic
                              >(600-900), Middle Gaelic (900-1200), Common
                              >Gaelic (1200-1700), (modern) Scottish Gaelic, or
                              >(modern) Irish.
                              >
                              >In any case, while I don't know of any Irish high
                              >queens, I have found one late medieval Irish text
                              >that uses a term for "high queen" (in reference
                              >to the wives of Roman emperors), and that term is
                              ><airdríghan> (a post-1200 spelling).

                              Well, as I said in the original question, it's for a semi-mythical
                              story :-). What I'm trying to do, based on the background of the
                              setting, is find as close to the original Gaelic for the names and
                              titles I'm using, and then tweak the spellings so the average reader
                              of English will end up pronouncing them mostly right. So for example,
                              "Tigernán" is being spelled "Tirnan" so people don't try to pronounce
                              it "tigger-nan" or "tiger-nan" or something similarly ugly, etc. I
                              may put after-notes in the book explaining the correct names for all
                              the people and places I've used.

                              From what I've seen, it looks like airdríghan will work better than
                              trying to figure out the ban- construction.

                              If anyone's *really* curious, I started this project for NaNoWriMo
                              (though I got started too late and kept running in to plotholes to
                              come anywhere near the target word count), and I put an excerpt up at
                              http://www.nanowrimo.org/flashinfo.php?uid=181296 (you have to "turn
                              the page" to get to the excerpt). The SCA roots are fairly obvious in
                              this bit, but the story will move away from that pretty quickly.

                              Thanks to all!

                              YiS,
                              Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
                              Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
                              (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
                              opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
                            • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                              Sharon, I can find the titlw Contributions to a dictionary of the Irish Language by Quin. Is that the book? Shel
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 29, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sharon,

                                I can find the titlw "Contributions to a dictionary of the Irish Language" by
                                Quin. Is that the book?

                                Shel

                                Quoting Erin Cabana <arianhrod2@...>:

                                > No, it;s actually called the Old Irish Workbook. There is also a book by John
                                > Straden and Olson Bejin (spelling might be off as my Prof. has horrid hand
                                > writting) Called Olr Irish Paradigms, that goes over congigation and definite
                                > articles..all that fun stuff.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: Sharon L. Krossa <skrossa-ml@...>
                                > To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, 28 November, 2006 4:55:15 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [albanach] OT Gaelic question
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > At 2:47 AM -0800 11/27/06, Erin Cabana wrote:
                                >
                                > >You can also get Old Irish by Quinn. I believe it was published in
                                >
                                > >the late 60's. It is what we are currently using at the U of
                                >
                                > >Aberdeen for our medieval gaelic class. It's not the best...but it's
                                >
                                > >not that bad either.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Do you mean Dictionary of the Irish Language,
                                >
                                > which is sometimes referred to as "DIL"? That is:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the
                                >
                                > Irish Language Based Mainly On Old And Middle
                                >
                                > Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,
                                >
                                > Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original
                                >
                                > edition, 1913-1976.
                                >
                                > http://www.amazon. com/exec/ obidos/ASIN/ 0901714291/ ref=nosim/
                                > medievalscotland
                                >
                                > http://www.amazon. co.uk/exec/ obidos/ASIN/ 0901714291/ ref=nosim/
                                > medievalscotla02
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If so, this is actually the best & most
                                >
                                > comprehensive dictionary for pre-1200 Gaelic
                                >
                                > there is currently, despite it's flaws. (For
                                >
                                > those unfamiliar with it, it is, in approach,
                                >
                                > roughly the equivalent of the OED for Early and
                                >
                                > Middle Gaelic -- it not only gives definitions,
                                >
                                > but cites dated examples.) Note, btw, that the
                                >
                                > editor (or at least the last general editor) is
                                >
                                > Quin (with only one <n>, not two).
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Anyway, various resources for Early and Middle
                                >
                                > Gaelic (aka Old and Middle Irish) can be found
                                >
                                > listed at
                                >
                                > http://medievalscot land.org/ scotbiblio/ languages. shtml#gaelic
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The _Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic_
                                >
                                > by Alexander MacBain, mentioned by someone else,
                                >
                                > is often useful but not entirely to be trusted
                                >
                                > when it comes to the etymologies -- if one has
                                >
                                > access to DIL, it is normally to be preferred to
                                >
                                > MacBain with regard to Early/Middle Gaelic.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > With regard to the particular question of what
                                >
                                > the Gaelic for "High Queen" would be, note that
                                >
                                > whatever the correct term is, the spelling (and
                                >
                                > possibly even the word) would depend on specific
                                >
                                > period -- whether you want it in Early Gaelic
                                >
                                > (600-900), Middle Gaelic (900-1200), Common
                                >
                                > Gaelic (1200-1700), (modern) Scottish Gaelic, or
                                >
                                > (modern) Irish.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > In any case, while I don't know of any Irish high
                                >
                                > queens, I have found one late medieval Irish text
                                >
                                > that uses a term for "high queen" (in reference
                                >
                                > to the wives of Roman emperors), and that term is
                                >
                                > <airdríghan> (a post-1200 spelling).
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Sharon
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > PS BTW, I also did Early Gaelic and Middle Gaelic
                                >
                                > at the University of Aberdeen -- with Colm
                                >
                                > O'Boyle, who is now retired. (Just missed meeting
                                >
                                > with him last week when I was in Aberdeen for my
                                >
                                > graduation, alas!) Hope you're enjoying it as
                                >
                                > much as I did (though I doubt it, as I had the
                                >
                                > luxury of auditing, so got to learn without all
                                >
                                > the stress of worrying about marks ;-)
                                >
                                > --
                                >
                                > Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. -- skrossa-ml@Medieval Scotland. org
                                >
                                > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                                >
                                > Medieval Scotland - http://www.Medieval Scotland. org/
                                >
                                > The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                                >
                                > The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • Sharon L. Krossa
                                ... Sort of -- it is a part of it. The Dictionary was originally published in parts (or fasciculi -- 22 of them over the course of some 63 years), some of
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 6:22 PM -0500 11/29/06, Unspecified wrote:
                                  >I can find the titlw "Contributions to a dictionary of the Irish Language" by
                                  >Quin. Is that the book?

                                  Sort of -- it is a part of it. The Dictionary was originally
                                  published in parts (or "fasciculi" -- 22 of them over the course of
                                  some 63 years), some of which were titled "Contributions to a
                                  Dictionary of the Irish Language". The edition I referenced is the
                                  complete work in a single volume compact (bring your magnifying
                                  glass, if you're no longer young ;-) form:

                                  Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the Irish Language Based
                                  Mainly On Old And Middle Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,
                                  Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original edition, 1913-1976.
                                  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotland
                                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotla02

                                  To the best of my knowledge, the compact edition is the only edition
                                  that gathers all the sections together -- otherwise you have to
                                  collect together the multiple parts yourself, which really isn't all
                                  that handy (and which can't be practically bound together in a single
                                  volume -- as said, this is the OED for early medieval Gaelic).

                                  US Amazon doesn't appear to realize the compact edition is still
                                  available new, but if you go to the UK Amazon link above, you will
                                  see it is still available new and (for what it is) quite reasonably
                                  priced at only 45 UK pounds, which is about $90 at current exchange
                                  rates. Depending on where you live, you may also be able to find it
                                  in a local university library.

                                  Sharon
                                  --
                                  Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. <skrossa-ml@...>
                                  Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                                  Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                                  Help support Medieval Scotland when you shop online!
                                  http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
                                • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                                  Thanks Sharon--and at 60 I will need my magnifying glass :-} Shel ... http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotla02
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks Sharon--and at 60 I will need my magnifying glass :-}

                                    Shel

                                    Quoting "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...>:

                                    > At 6:22 PM -0500 11/29/06, Unspecified wrote:
                                    > >I can find the titlw "Contributions to a dictionary of the Irish Language"
                                    > by
                                    > >Quin. Is that the book?
                                    >
                                    > Sort of -- it is a part of it. The Dictionary was originally
                                    > published in parts (or "fasciculi" -- 22 of them over the course of
                                    > some 63 years), some of which were titled "Contributions to a
                                    > Dictionary of the Irish Language". The edition I referenced is the
                                    > complete work in a single volume compact (bring your magnifying
                                    > glass, if you're no longer young ;-) form:
                                    >
                                    > Quin, E. G., et al., eds. _Dictionary of the Irish Language Based
                                    > Mainly On Old And Middle Irish Materials_. Compact ed. 1983. Reprint,
                                    > Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 1998. Original edition, 1913-1976.
                                    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotland
                                    >
                                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0901714291/ref=nosim/medievalscotla02
                                    >
                                    > To the best of my knowledge, the compact edition is the only edition
                                    > that gathers all the sections together -- otherwise you have to
                                    > collect together the multiple parts yourself, which really isn't all
                                    > that handy (and which can't be practically bound together in a single
                                    > volume -- as said, this is the OED for early medieval Gaelic).
                                    >
                                    > US Amazon doesn't appear to realize the compact edition is still
                                    > available new, but if you go to the UK Amazon link above, you will
                                    > see it is still available new and (for what it is) quite reasonably
                                    > priced at only 45 UK pounds, which is about $90 at current exchange
                                    > rates. Depending on where you live, you may also be able to find it
                                    > in a local university library.
                                    >
                                    > Sharon
                                    > --
                                    > Sharon Krossa, Ph.D. <skrossa-ml@...>
                                    > Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                                    > Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                                    > Help support Medieval Scotland when you shop online!
                                    > http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
                                    >
                                  • Muirghein
                                    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310211.stm ... More on the Beeb. Related story:
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 31, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310211.stm

                                      >Wild wolves 'good for ecosystems'
                                      >Reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the
                                      >local ecosystem, a study suggests.
                                      >
                                      >Wolves, which were hunted to extinction in Scotland in the late
                                      >1700s, would help control the numbers of red deer, the team from the
                                      >UK and Norway said.
                                      >
                                      >This would aid the re-establishment of plants and birds - currently
                                      >hampered by the deer population, they write in Proceedings of the
                                      >Royal Society B.

                                      More on the Beeb. Related story:
                                      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/6317357.stm

                                      >The demise of Scotland's wolves
                                      >
                                      >Blink and you will miss it.
                                      >
                                      >A carved stone by the side of the A9 near Brora claims to mark the
                                      >site where the last wolf in Sutherland was killed by a man called
                                      >Polson in 1700.
                                      >
                                      >The unremarkable grey marker reflects the sad demise of the wild
                                      >animal in Scotland.
                                      >
                                      >According to research done by Glasgow Zoo, now closed, the wolf was
                                      >regarded as a common enemy.
                                      >
                                      >Chieftains and royalty led hunts.
                                      >
                                      >One attended by Queen Mary in 1563 employed 2,000 Highlanders and
                                      >ended in the deaths of five wolves and 360 deer.
                                      >
                                      >Huge swathes of forest in Perthshire, Lochaber and Argyll were
                                      >systematically destroyed to deprive wolves of their habitat.
                                      ...
                                      >However, many historians believe the very last one was dispatched
                                      >near Findhorn, Moray, in 1743 amid an outcry that it had killed two
                                      >children.

                                      In Service,
                                      Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
                                      Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
                                      (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
                                      opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
                                    • Julie Stackable
                                      ... I wonder where they are going to get the wolves from? And who has to catch them and transport them? That sounds like a fun job... I know that most wolf
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Muirghein <wolfestead@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310211.stm
                                        >
                                        > >Wild wolves 'good for ecosystems'
                                        > >Reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the
                                        > >local ecosystem, a study suggests.

                                        I wonder where they are going to get the wolves from? And who has to
                                        catch them and transport them? That sounds like a fun job...

                                        I know that most wolf species mate for life. I hope whomever they get
                                        to stock the wolves in Scotland doesn't break up family groups
                                        (anybody ever seen or read 'Never Cry Wolf' - great movie, great
                                        book).

                                        Toujours a vos ordres,
                                        Margaret Hepburn
                                      • Muirghein
                                        ... AFAIK, relocation efforts tend to work with packs, so they don t give the emigres a handicap right off by upsetting their social structure. Saw the movie,
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          At 08:19 AM 2/1/2007, Margaret Hepburn wrote:
                                          >--- Muirghein <wolfestead@...> wrote:
                                          > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310211.stm
                                          > >
                                          > > >Wild wolves 'good for ecosystems'
                                          > > >Reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the
                                          > > >local ecosystem, a study suggests.
                                          >
                                          >I wonder where they are going to get the wolves from? And who has to
                                          >catch them and transport them? That sounds like a fun job...
                                          >
                                          >I know that most wolf species mate for life. I hope whomever they get
                                          >to stock the wolves in Scotland doesn't break up family groups
                                          >(anybody ever seen or read 'Never Cry Wolf' - great movie, great
                                          >book).

                                          AFAIK, relocation efforts tend to work with packs, so they don't give
                                          the emigres a handicap right off by upsetting their social structure.

                                          Saw the movie, haven't read the book, but one look at my household
                                          name (see the email address) should show I'm not exactly neutral on
                                          the subject of wolves ;-).

                                          YiS,
                                          Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
                                          Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
                                          (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
                                          opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
                                        • rowen_g
                                          ... Well, with US wolf-restoration, they were brought in from Canada, but I daresay the Baltic areas still have plenty. The white-tailed or sea-eagle was
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable" <malvoisine@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Muirghein <wolfestead@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310211.stm
                                            > >
                                            > > >Wild wolves 'good for ecosystems'
                                            > > >Reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the
                                            > > >local ecosystem, a study suggests.
                                            >
                                            > I wonder where they are going to get the wolves from? And who has to
                                            > catch them and transport them? That sounds like a fun job...
                                            >
                                            > I know that most wolf species mate for life. I hope whomever they get
                                            > to stock the wolves in Scotland doesn't break up family groups
                                            > (anybody ever seen or read 'Never Cry Wolf' - great movie, great
                                            > book).
                                            >
                                            > Toujours a vos ordres,
                                            > Margaret Hepburn
                                            >


                                            Well, with US wolf-restoration, they were brought in from Canada, but
                                            I daresay the Baltic areas still have plenty.

                                            The white-tailed or sea-eagle was reintroduced into Scotland starting
                                            in 1975. I've been told* that when the chicks were brought over from
                                            Norway, an RAF jet was sent for them to minimalize the length of the
                                            trip.

                                            Rowen Brithwallt

                                            (also fond of wolves)


                                            * By a Scottish falconer who was working with rehabilitating a
                                            zoo-raised sea eagle, and who allowed me to put on a leather sleeve
                                            and glove and hold the lure when the eagle was released from the other
                                            side of a valley. She landed on my left forearm, and her wings
                                            outspanned my arms and wrapped all around my head and shoulders.
                                            Wonderful!

                                            R
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