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Of Scottish titles and wikipedia

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  • Muirghein
    Knowing that what s on Wikipedia might be good or might be bunk, I found these and would like to toss them out to our more knowledgeable members for
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 24 2:00 PM
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      Knowing that what's on Wikipedia might be good or might be bunk, I
      found these and would like to toss them out to our more knowledgeable
      members for discussion.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaer

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thegn

      For SCA purposes, Thegn is listed as the Scots Gaelic alternative for
      Baron, but Mormaer doesn't show on the list
      (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html). Is there any SCA title for
      which it might be a reasonable alternative?

      Just askin', since I doubt it would apply to the step-child
      grant-level titles and that's the only one I'm likely to be using in
      the foreseeable future :-).

      Slan,
      Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\
      Dreiburgen Web Minister http://www.dreiburgen.org
      (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
      opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)
    • James Pratt
      ... Try Jarl or Earl . Since the Mormaer was a territorial title, insofar as they had a specific area over which they exercised authority, that generally
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 24 3:43 PM
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        >
        > For SCA purposes, Thegn is listed as the Scots Gaelic alternative for
        > Baron, but Mormaer doesn't show on the list
        > (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html). Is there any SCA title for
        > which it might be a reasonable alternative?
        >
        > Just askin', since I doubt it would apply to the step-child
        > grant-level titles and that's the only one I'm likely to be using in
        > the foreseeable future :-).
        >
        > Slan,
        > Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach /|\

        Try 'Jarl' or 'Earl'. Since the Mormaer was a territorial title, insofar as
        they had a specific area over which they exercised authority,
        that generally coincides with the usage of an Earl who in some instances
        served as a royal officer over fiefs which were not his own demense.

        Cathal.
      • Dances_With_Salmon
        Greetings: Hi, my name is Patrick and I have a 1540 s Irish persona that I am working on. My question is does anyone know the history of Moggens ? These are
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 25 12:54 PM
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          Greetings:

          Hi, my name is Patrick and I have a 1540's Irish
          persona that I am working on. My question is does
          anyone know the history of "Moggens"? These are the
          wraps of cloth sometimes worn around the lower leg in
          bad weather. I would like to know, did the Scottish
          and Irish really wear them or is this a myth and in
          what time period they were fashionable. Thanks for
          you help.

          Lost and Confused
        • Dances_With_Salmon
          Greetings: On the Feileadh-Mhor issue I found Wrapping and Wearing the Great Kilt at http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/breacan03.htm. This particular method
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 26 7:56 AM
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            Greetings:

            On the Feileadh-Mhor issue I found "Wrapping and Wearing the Great
            Kilt" at
            http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/breacan03.htm. This particular
            method of forming the upper may be out of time period, but it is cool
            comfortable and looks attractive.
            On the moggen question. I have had some luck when I translated moggen
            as Gaiters, Puttees, Leg Wraps, Strapulas, and Winingas. Examples
            have been found in Spain, Germany, England, Scandinavia, and even
            Egypt and Syria. These date from as early as 7oo's to as late as
            13oo's. No mention is made in Scotland until the 17oo's however. At
            that time they seem to have been part of a military uniform and not
            common among civilians. "Wikipedia" also says that gaiters were a
            part of the clerical clothing of bishops and archdeacons of the
            "Anglican Communion" from the twelfth century through the middle part
            of the twentieth century but, I am unable to confirm this. Ireland
            as far as I can tell has no history of moggens what so ever. At this
            point; I still feel that given the often extremely hot weather in the
            Gulf Coast, that moggens, though not correct in the strictest sense,
            are a reasonable alternative to trews. Going bare legged is also a
            very traditional option, but here-to-for I have always been trying to
            put forth a more modest appearance.

            Lost And Confused
          • Kevin Myers
            La math dhuibh! ... In 9th-13th century Scotland, the west and north of the country were under scandinavian rule (The Western Isles, Orkneys, Shetlands and
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 26 11:13 AM
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              La math dhuibh!

              --- Dances_With_Salmon <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

              > On the moggen question. I have had some luck when I translated
              > moggen as Gaiters, Puttees, Leg Wraps, Strapulas, and Winingas.
              > Examples have been found in Spain, Germany, England, Scandinavia, and

              > even Egypt and Syria. These date from as early as 7oo's to as late as
              > 13oo's. No mention is made in Scotland until the 17oo's however.

              In 9th-13th century Scotland, the west and north of the country were
              under scandinavian rule (The Western Isles, Orkneys, Shetlands and
              Sutherland/Caithness). If your persona were from those areas or had
              contact with them, from the 9th century on, it is possible that you
              would have seen people wearing puttees/winingas/wicclebindings or
              whatchamacallums on their legs. The norse also were responsible for
              settlements in Ireland, like Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick and
              others I'm not remembering off-hand. So there would have been norse
              settlers wearing them there as well. Now, there is evidence from Magnus
              Barelegs' Saga, that by the mid 11th century (I think that's the right
              time frame), the locals in the norse controlled areas of Scotland were
              not wearing anything on their legs, that they'd adopted the gaelic
              style of dress (brat and leine).

              9th century Hiberno-Norse, probably wore them for sure. Native Scots or
              Irish, probably not but there may have been areas or instances of
              cross-over.

              Have you ever read "Old Irish and Highland Dress" by H.F. McClintock?
              Or "Highland Dress" by J. Telfer Dunbar? They're probably available
              from your local university library, if not, you can get them through
              inter-library loan for sure.


              > At this
              > point; I still feel that given the often extremely hot weather in the
              > Gulf Coast, that moggens, though not correct in the strictest sense,
              > are a reasonable alternative to trews.

              The leine was worn bare legged and IS documentable up to the end of SCA
              period.

              Don't make the leine out of anything but linen. You will be very
              uncomfortable in polyester. You might be ok in cotton. But you will be
              most comfortable in linen (and that is the correct fiber for the
              garment anyway!)

              I have two personas--one is a 9th century scottish noble living in Mull
              and it is open to debate how much he was influenced by the norse the
              other is a common Hiberno-Norse farmer (a tenant of my other persona).
              The noble wears the brat and leine with, in cold weather,
              wicclebindings on his feet. I don't want frostbite thankyouverymuch.
              The other wears the jacket and trews combination and wears
              wicclebindings on his feet as well in cold weather. I've worn my late
              period kit (breacan feile) in temps as low as 5 below and been ok for
              the first 15 minutes. Yeah. Wool leggings are a must up here in
              Northshield.

              I wear my wool trews in some pretty heinous heat and humidity and I've
              been comfortable, the wool wicks the sweat up and doesn't overheat you.
              And since they are tight fitting, my legs are not surrounded by warmer
              air. I wear the trews with a longsleaved linen-lined (for my comfort,
              not accuracy) wool jacket that I often leave open in front. I usually
              do not wear the wicclebindings in the summer (the very thought makes me
              sweat).

              Since the Breacain Feile is not documented before 1594, the breadth of
              SCA period in Scotland saw the gaels wearing the leine and brat. There
              are carvings showing the Picts wearing long tunics also.

              > Going bare legged is also a very traditional option, but here-to-for
              > I have always been trying to put forth a more modest appearance.

              Modesty is seen through the lense of one's culture. Other cultures may
              view modesty issues differently. The english commentators were
              scandalized by the irish women going about in just a shift (their
              leinte) in the 16th century, considering them to be 'naked'. If you are
              embarrassed by wearing a leine bare-legged, don't hitch it up above
              mid-shin or past the knee. There are stone carvings showing the leine
              and also the pictish tunic being worn to a length just above the foot.
              You will still be bare legged but who'd know?

              Hope this helps.

              -Cainnech Ruad mcGuairi
              OL




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            • Callahan Patrick
              Dear Kevin Myers : Thanks for all of your information. I have not read Old Irish and Highland Dress by H.F. McClintock, yet. Have not seen a copy either.
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 27 10:40 AM
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                Dear Kevin Myers :

                Thanks for all of your information. I have not read
                "Old Irish and Highland Dress" by H.F. McClintock,
                yet. Have not seen a copy either. It is on Christmas
                list however. I am hoping to get the complete work on
                CD ROM in December. As to making my leine out of
                linen; I have found linen difficult to obtain. Though
                it is available through certain reenactment supply
                companies. I am currently working on making two leine
                out of a bolt of yellow 1oo percent cotton. Attempting
                to imitate the saffron color so often described in
                time period accounts. I have three personas all form
                the 15oo's one is a FOOL (this persona is truer to my
                actual personality than I would like to admit), one is
                a MONK (devoted to an order that seeks a greater
                understanding of God through the study of art and
                beauty), these are both IRISH and a MERCHANT who maybe
                either SCOTTISH or IRISH (he some times dons a kilt).
                I see modesty through the lens of my church (The
                Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint). We wear a
                certain kind of underwear which comes to just above
                the knee and an under shirt at all time to remind us
                of the vows an covenants we have made in the church.
                I was aware but must have forgotten (partly because my
                first leines were not the correct length) that the
                leine is suppose to be ankle length and can be worn
                higher or lower to suit.

                Thanks again.
                More Later.

                Lost and Confused


                (any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
                opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)



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              • gtmcdavid
                ... part ... Gaiters were indeed a part of the traditional dress of the upper Anglican (Church of England and its offspring) clergy, although I cannot now say
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 28 12:03 PM
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                  --- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Dances_With_Salmon"
                  <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

                  > .... "Wikipedia" also says that gaiters were a
                  > part of the clerical clothing of bishops and archdeacons of the
                  > "Anglican Communion" from the twelfth century through the middle
                  part
                  > of the twentieth century but, I am unable to confirm this.

                  Gaiters were indeed a part of the traditional dress of the upper
                  Anglican (Church of England and its offspring) clergy, although I
                  cannot now say how far back the tradition goes. See

                  http://anglicansonline.org/special/gaiters/index.html and
                  http://morgue.anglicansonline.org/001029/ for 20th Century
                  references.

                  Pedantic note: Strictly speaking, "Anglican" refers to the period
                  from the Reformation onwards. However, it _may_ be that gaiters may
                  have been worn by the pre-Reformation upper clergy in England and
                  were carried over into the C of E and that the Wikipedia author
                  simply used the term as shorthand.

                  Glenn McDavid
                  gmcdavid@...
                  http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid
                • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                  First, feileadh is a masculine word and so it is feileadh mor not mhor (there are accent marks in both words, but not all applications will support the marks
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 3, 2006
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                    First, feileadh is a masculine word and so it is feileadh mor not mhor (there
                    are accent marks in both words, but not all applications will support the marks
                    froms this aggravating computer). Second, I have always felt that this method
                    of donning a feileadh-mor is awkward and time consuming and not practical in a
                    wet environment or in something the size of a black house in the highlands.
                    Just bunch it into folds, put the thing over a shoulder with the long part down
                    your back and the bottom just above knee height, pull it around your waist,
                    belt it, arrange the folds and the top. and be off.

                    Beannachd leibh,
                    Shel




                    Quoting Dances_With_Salmon <callahanpatrick@...>:

                    > Greetings:
                    >
                    > On the Feileadh-Mhor issue I found "Wrapping and Wearing the Great
                    > Kilt" at
                    > http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/breacan03.htm. This particular
                    > method of forming the upper may be out of time period, but it is cool
                    > comfortable and looks attractive.
                    > On the moggen question. I have had some luck when I translated moggen
                    > as Gaiters, Puttees, Leg Wraps, Strapulas, and Winingas. Examples
                    > have been found in Spain, Germany, England, Scandinavia, and even
                    > Egypt and Syria. These date from as early as 7oo's to as late as
                    > 13oo's. No mention is made in Scotland until the 17oo's however. At
                    > that time they seem to have been part of a military uniform and not
                    > common among civilians. "Wikipedia" also says that gaiters were a
                    > part of the clerical clothing of bishops and archdeacons of the
                    > "Anglican Communion" from the twelfth century through the middle part
                    > of the twentieth century but, I am unable to confirm this. Ireland
                    > as far as I can tell has no history of moggens what so ever. At this
                    > point; I still feel that given the often extremely hot weather in the
                    > Gulf Coast, that moggens, though not correct in the strictest sense,
                    > are a reasonable alternative to trews. Going bare legged is also a
                    > very traditional option, but here-to-for I have always been trying to
                    > put forth a more modest appearance.
                    >
                    > Lost And Confused
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Dances_With_Salmon
                    Dear Sir: In reference to http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/. I am sorry if that I offended you by using the incorrect spelling of Feileadh Mor. I am not
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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                      Dear Sir:

                      In reference to http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/. I am sorry if
                      that I offended you by using the incorrect spelling of Feileadh Mor.
                      I am not what you might call "well educated" and the only Gaelic I
                      know is a few bits and pieces I pick up from the web. The web does
                      not always provide me with proper spellings or even good syntax.

                      Okay, on the site I posted your methods of donning a "Great Kilt" is
                      mentioned in "Alternate steps 1 & 2", but that was not my question
                      anyways. I wanted to know what to do with the top of the "Great
                      Kilt", what some might call the "Plaid". The answer to this I found
                      in "Step 3", though I have read about many other methods this way of
                      wearing the "Plaid" this made sense to me. The problem I now have, is
                      that I do not believe there is any documentation to support me wearing
                      it this way for a pre-16oo's persona.

                      Sincerely,
                      Patrick Callahan
                      Aka. Dances With Salmon
                      Aka. Lost and Confused
                    • Sharon L. Krossa
                      ... You didn t offend him -- he was just letting you know about the spelling. Like the kind souls who tell you your fly is unzipped, instead of letting you
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 5, 2006
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                        At 4:50 AM +0000 9/5/06, Dances_With_Salmon wrote:
                        >In reference to http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/. I am sorry if
                        >that I offended you by using the incorrect spelling of Feileadh Mor.

                        You didn't "offend" him -- he was just letting you know about the
                        spelling. Like the kind souls who tell you your fly is unzipped,
                        instead of letting you walk around all day with your fly unzipped.
                        They aren't telling you your fly is unzipped because it offends them,
                        but to be helpful to you (and, on a mailing list like this, other
                        readers as well).

                        I encourage people to accept such help in the friendly, helpful
                        spirit it was offered -- and without apology! (There is no need to
                        apologize for being sincerely --that is, unknowingly-- wrong about
                        something. We *all* are wrong about things from time to time. And how
                        boring the world would be if we were all born omniscient, instead of
                        having to keep learning new things every day!)

                        >wearing the "Plaid" this made sense to me. The problem I now have, is
                        >that I do not believe there is any documentation to support me wearing
                        >it this way for a pre-16oo's persona.

                        There is no historical evidence to support wearing a plaid with a
                        belt around the outside prior to the late 1500s (16th century), but
                        for a late 1500s Scottish Gaelic (male) persona, it is just fine.

                        Earlier than that, Gaels simply wore the plaid unbelted, as a loose
                        mantle. (Female Scottish Gaels continued to wear their plaids
                        unbelted until the late 1600s [17th century].)

                        Note that by "plaid" here I mean a garment, specifically, a
                        rectangular tartan mantle. The modern U.S. and the historical
                        Scottish meanings and uses of the word <plaid> are different, and in
                        discussing historical Scottish clothing most knowledgeable people use
                        the historical senses (because otherwise it just gets way to awkward
                        to talk about! Especially since the historical sources have no choice
                        but to use the historical senses ;-)

                        Sharon, ska Effrick nyn Ken3e
                        --
                        Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                        Need help with technology for your research or teaching? Hire me!
                        http://MedievalScotland.org/hireme/
                        Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                        Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                      • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                        Patrick, No offence was taken or intended on my part either. Since this site is for all of us to learn, I took the opportunity to correct your spelling, which
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 5, 2006
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                          Patrick,

                          No offence was taken or intended on my part either. Since this site is for all
                          of us to learn, I took the opportunity to correct your spelling, which also
                          affects prounuciation of Gaelic significantly. I am no expert in Gaelic
                          either--perhaps not in anything.

                          Late seventeenth century and eighteenth century paintings (the few that I've
                          seen anyway) show a variety of ways of wearing the upper part of the kilt and I
                          suspect that most any way that can be used to deal with the fabric in a logical
                          way is fine. My own preference is to take the upper right corner, give it a
                          half twist to the right and to pull the corner under the sporan belt so that it
                          hangs over the belt and on the right side of the sporan. You can do the same
                          thing with the upper left corner--or not. Somewhere towards the center of the
                          top edge can be pinned or buttoned to the left shoulder of your jerkin or short
                          coat. Look at all the paintings that you can find images of. Dunbar books are
                          good. All the paintings are too late for SCA--but there ain't but so many
                          things that you can do with that fabric.

                          Beannachd leibh (Blessings with you),
                          Shel

                          Quoting Dances_With_Salmon <callahanpatrick@...>:

                          > Dear Sir:
                          >
                          > In reference to http://www.tartanweb.com/greatkilt/. I am sorry if
                          > that I offended you by using the incorrect spelling of Feileadh Mor.
                          > I am not what you might call "well educated" and the only Gaelic I
                          > know is a few bits and pieces I pick up from the web. The web does
                          > not always provide me with proper spellings or even good syntax.
                          >
                          > Okay, on the site I posted your methods of donning a "Great Kilt" is
                          > mentioned in "Alternate steps 1 & 2", but that was not my question
                          > anyways. I wanted to know what to do with the top of the "Great
                          > Kilt", what some might call the "Plaid". The answer to this I found
                          > in "Step 3", though I have read about many other methods this way of
                          > wearing the "Plaid" this made sense to me. The problem I now have, is
                          > that I do not believe there is any documentation to support me wearing
                          > it this way for a pre-16oo's persona.
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          > Patrick Callahan
                          > Aka. Dances With Salmon
                          > Aka. Lost and Confused
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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