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Re: [albanach] Early 14th century Lowland Men's garb-HELP!!!

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  • Matthew A. C. Newsome
    Doug, I m afraid I m more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for SCA
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 20, 2006
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      Doug,

      I'm afraid I'm more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the
      luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for
      SCA use. SCA clothing requirements simply state "pre-seventeenth century"
      and as the great kilt can be documented to the late sixteenth century, then
      it qualifies.

      But the current discussion was about mid-fourteenth century dress, and if
      one is attempting to put together any outfit depicting dress from earlier
      than the late sixteenth century, the great kilt would be out of place.

      But in general, it does fall within the SCA time frame, and so is perfectly
      fine for SCA wear.

      Eogan


      On 7/19/06, Doug Saball <dr_douglittle@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mathew,
      >
      > I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction
      > of "Breaveheart" that confounds the issue!!!
      >
      > IMHO the "Belted Plaid" should not be part of the SCA - but by "popular
      > demand" it stays.
      >
      > I wore mine tonight at our "Association of Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA)
      > youth club. They do not have strict standards. In fact the fair I am
      > attending as a bard in the "Great Kilt" does not have standards either. Last
      > year they had several winged faeries... The purpose is for fun. My friend
      > encouraged me to ware the kilt mostly because it goes with many of the songs
      > we are singing (Irish bar tunes = Donald Where's Your Trousers).
      >
      > Eventually (by mid October) I plan on having English wool herald &
      > Troubadour outfits. These will be more fitting since eventually I plan on
      > making period instruments (rebec, citole, lyre, hammered dulcimer, harp,
      > etc.).
      >
      > Since you are the historian I have a question for you: Where there many or
      > any Irish Luither - instrument makers? I read that many from Ireland &
      > Scotland had immigrated to France/Italy about 1400 for the "arts" culture
      > and brought back that influence to their homelands. Is this true?
      >
      > Doug
      >
      >
      > "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@... <macnewsome%40gmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      > Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:
      >
      > > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
      > > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
      > > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
      > > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
      > > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
      > > their first documentation)
      >
      > As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
      > then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
      > requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
      > kilt qualifies.
      >
      > But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
      > mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
      > suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
      > kilt, for that matter).
      >
      > Stating simply that things probably existed before their first
      > documentation
      > can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
      > documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
      > that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke
      > up
      > that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles
      > and
      > wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
      > loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
      > sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
      > that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
      > plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.
      >
      > So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
      > that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
      > Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
      > accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
      > belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.
      >
      > And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the
      > eyes
      > of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
      > surely have been mentioned in such accounts!
      >
      > So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
      > fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming
      > American
      > Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
      > basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
      > documented. It just ain't so!
      >
      > Aye,
      > Eogan
      >
      > --
      > > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
      > > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
      > > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
      > > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
      > >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
      > rates.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
      Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
      Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
      Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marcus mac Pharláin
      Here s a rough timeline of Scottish attire. 1750 s Wee-Kilt --- Out of Period 1550 s-1750 s Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --- Late Period
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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        Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.

        1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
        1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
        Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
        English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
        Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
        traditional dress prevailed.
        1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
        traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
        also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.

        A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
        yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
        shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
        only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
        Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
        the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
        preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
        Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
        been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
        period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.

        Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
        but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
        reasonable deviations that are very plausible.

        My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
        this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
        suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
        Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
        approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
        and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
        Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
        being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
        period. When in Rome...

        My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
        documentable), don't worry about it.

        Yours in service...

        Marcus mac Pharláin


        --
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • christopher edwards
        Marcus, Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least streamlining the quest I m sharing with so many others. I ve been wanting to do a leine but felt
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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          Marcus,
          Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least
          streamlining the quest I'm sharing with so many
          others. I've been wanting to do a leine but felt it
          might be another secondary piece, as being very celtic
          in the land of encroaching germanics. It ought to be
          interesting mixing some Anglo/ Saxon/ English/ Norman
          French elements into my essentially Celtic attire.
          Great bit about the Mongol card player! Same sort of
          explanation for my Wisby plate, 'cept I had to kill a
          guy......... Hey, he was raiding WAY too far
          inland!!!
          Logan

          --- Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...> wrote:

          > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
          >
          > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
          > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --->
          > Late Period
          > Lowland Dress may have
          > included some mix of
          > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
          > Highland Dress would have
          > been a mix too, but more
          > traditional dress prevailed.
          > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat)
          > were prevalent,
          > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland.
          > Trews (leggings/pant) were
          > also possible, but were mostly associated with the
          > Irish Celtic Clans.
          >
          > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees,
          > and a Brat was a couple
          > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's
          > sash pinned at the
          > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local
          > weaver, and there are
          > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later
          > became "Clan" Tartans.
          > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan
          > MacFarlane controlled lands at
          > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the
          > 1300's, but this did not
          > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan
          > from this Weaver through
          > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan,
          > but its use would have
          > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a
          > Clan Tartan in late
          > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their
          > weaver as well.
          >
          > Remember, these styles are general average
          > (sterotypical) documented attire,
          > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there
          > had to be some
          > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
          >
          > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine
          > and Braight, but IMHO
          > this does not preclude me from wearing either a
          > Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
          > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for
          > accessorizing, one of my
          > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on
          > his belt. One day he was
          > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory
          > on this Scotish attire,
          > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?"
          > Pointing to one across the
          > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and
          > left it at that. Also,
          > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise
          > or traveling clothes is
          > period. When in Rome...
          >
          > My contention... As long as you can explain it as
          > plausible (not necessarily
          > documentable), don't worry about it.
          >
          > Yours in service...
          >
          > Marcus mac Pharláin
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 -
          > Release Date: 7/20/2006
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >

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        • Don Seamus mac Dhughaill
          Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during the early - mid 14 th
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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            Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to
            know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during
            the early - mid 14 th century. I would like to get a more period set
            of garb rather than wearing layered t-tunics all the time.

            If the answer was in one of te replies, then I apologize but I did
            not see it in all of the discussions about the kilt. :-)

            Seamus

            (sometime wearer of kilt if it is a hot florida day)
          • Matthew A. C. Newsome
            ... While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum tartan (I
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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              Marcus writes:

              > Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
              > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan"
              > Tartans.
              > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
              > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did
              > not
              > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
              > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
              > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
              > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.


              While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA
              period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum
              tartan (I assume you are referring to the black and white Lendrum) was first
              recorded in the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. While the book's authoris
              purported to have their information from a sixteenth century manuscript,
              their claims were later proven to be a forgery. They, in fact, invented
              most of the tartans included in the reference.

              The Campbell tartan, on the other hand, has its origins as a military tartan
              (the Black Watch) and it was developed during the early-to-mid eighteenth
              century. So neither has any known documentation that would bring it to
              within SCA period.

              Aye,
              Eogan





              >
              > --
              > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
              > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
              > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
              > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ebrowder@widomaker.com
              Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that s a feileadh mor or a feileadh beag
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the
                Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that's a feileadh mor or a feileadh
                beag that he's wearing.

                Shel



                Quoting Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...>:

                > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
                >
                > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
                > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
                > Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
                > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
                > Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
                > traditional dress prevailed.
                > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
                > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
                > also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.
                >
                > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
                > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
                > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
                > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
                > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.
                >
                > Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
                > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
                > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
                >
                > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
                > this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
                > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
                > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
                > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
                > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
                > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
                > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
                > period. When in Rome...
                >
                > My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
                > documentable), don't worry about it.
                >
                > Yours in service...
                >
                > Marcus mac Pharláin
                >
                >
                > --
                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 - Release Date: 7/20/2006
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
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