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Re: [albanach] Early 14th century Lowland Men's garb-HELP!!!

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  • Doug Saball
    Mathew, I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction of Breaveheart that confounds the issue!!! IMHO the Belted Plaid should
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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      Mathew,

      I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction of "Breaveheart" that confounds the issue!!!

      IMHO the "Belted Plaid" should not be part of the SCA - but by "popular demand" it stays.

      I wore mine tonight at our "Association of Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA) youth club. They do not have strict standards. In fact the fair I am attending as a bard in the "Great Kilt" does not have standards either. Last year they had several winged faeries... The purpose is for fun. My friend encouraged me to ware the kilt mostly because it goes with many of the songs we are singing (Irish bar tunes = Donald Where's Your Trousers).

      Eventually (by mid October) I plan on having English wool herald & Troubadour outfits. These will be more fitting since eventually I plan on making period instruments (rebec, citole, lyre, hammered dulcimer, harp, etc.).

      Since you are the historian I have a question for you: Where there many or any Irish Luither - instrument makers? I read that many from Ireland & Scotland had immigrated to France/Italy about 1400 for the "arts" culture and brought back that influence to their homelands. Is this true?

      Doug

      "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@...> wrote:
      Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:

      > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
      > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
      > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
      > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
      > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
      > their first documentation)


      As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
      then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
      requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
      kilt qualifies.

      But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
      mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
      suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
      kilt, for that matter).

      Stating simply that things probably existed before their first documentation
      can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
      documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
      that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke up
      that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles and
      wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
      loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
      sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
      that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
      plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.

      So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
      that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
      Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
      accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
      belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.

      And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the eyes
      of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
      surely have been mentioned in such accounts!

      So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
      fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming American
      Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
      basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
      documented. It just ain't so!

      Aye,
      Eogan




      --
      > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
      > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
      > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
      > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
      >






      ---------------------------------
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew A. C. Newsome
      Doug, I m afraid I m more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for SCA
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 20, 2006
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        Doug,

        I'm afraid I'm more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the
        luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for
        SCA use. SCA clothing requirements simply state "pre-seventeenth century"
        and as the great kilt can be documented to the late sixteenth century, then
        it qualifies.

        But the current discussion was about mid-fourteenth century dress, and if
        one is attempting to put together any outfit depicting dress from earlier
        than the late sixteenth century, the great kilt would be out of place.

        But in general, it does fall within the SCA time frame, and so is perfectly
        fine for SCA wear.

        Eogan


        On 7/19/06, Doug Saball <dr_douglittle@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mathew,
        >
        > I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction
        > of "Breaveheart" that confounds the issue!!!
        >
        > IMHO the "Belted Plaid" should not be part of the SCA - but by "popular
        > demand" it stays.
        >
        > I wore mine tonight at our "Association of Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA)
        > youth club. They do not have strict standards. In fact the fair I am
        > attending as a bard in the "Great Kilt" does not have standards either. Last
        > year they had several winged faeries... The purpose is for fun. My friend
        > encouraged me to ware the kilt mostly because it goes with many of the songs
        > we are singing (Irish bar tunes = Donald Where's Your Trousers).
        >
        > Eventually (by mid October) I plan on having English wool herald &
        > Troubadour outfits. These will be more fitting since eventually I plan on
        > making period instruments (rebec, citole, lyre, hammered dulcimer, harp,
        > etc.).
        >
        > Since you are the historian I have a question for you: Where there many or
        > any Irish Luither - instrument makers? I read that many from Ireland &
        > Scotland had immigrated to France/Italy about 1400 for the "arts" culture
        > and brought back that influence to their homelands. Is this true?
        >
        > Doug
        >
        >
        > "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@... <macnewsome%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        > Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:
        >
        > > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
        > > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
        > > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
        > > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
        > > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
        > > their first documentation)
        >
        > As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
        > then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
        > requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
        > kilt qualifies.
        >
        > But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
        > mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
        > suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
        > kilt, for that matter).
        >
        > Stating simply that things probably existed before their first
        > documentation
        > can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
        > documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
        > that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke
        > up
        > that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles
        > and
        > wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
        > loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
        > sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
        > that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
        > plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.
        >
        > So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
        > that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
        > Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
        > accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
        > belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.
        >
        > And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the
        > eyes
        > of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
        > surely have been mentioned in such accounts!
        >
        > So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
        > fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming
        > American
        > Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
        > basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
        > documented. It just ain't so!
        >
        > Aye,
        > Eogan
        >
        > --
        > > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
        > > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
        > > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
        > > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
        > >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
        > rates.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
        Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
        Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
        Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marcus mac Pharláin
        Here s a rough timeline of Scottish attire. 1750 s Wee-Kilt --- Out of Period 1550 s-1750 s Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --- Late Period
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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          Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.

          1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
          1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
          Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
          English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
          Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
          traditional dress prevailed.
          1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
          traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
          also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.

          A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
          yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
          shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
          only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
          Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
          the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
          preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
          Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
          been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
          period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.

          Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
          but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
          reasonable deviations that are very plausible.

          My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
          this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
          suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
          Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
          approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
          and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
          Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
          being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
          period. When in Rome...

          My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
          documentable), don't worry about it.

          Yours in service...

          Marcus mac Pharláin


          --
          No virus found in this outgoing message.
          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 - Release Date: 7/20/2006



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • christopher edwards
          Marcus, Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least streamlining the quest I m sharing with so many others. I ve been wanting to do a leine but felt
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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            Marcus,
            Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least
            streamlining the quest I'm sharing with so many
            others. I've been wanting to do a leine but felt it
            might be another secondary piece, as being very celtic
            in the land of encroaching germanics. It ought to be
            interesting mixing some Anglo/ Saxon/ English/ Norman
            French elements into my essentially Celtic attire.
            Great bit about the Mongol card player! Same sort of
            explanation for my Wisby plate, 'cept I had to kill a
            guy......... Hey, he was raiding WAY too far
            inland!!!
            Logan

            --- Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...> wrote:

            > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
            >
            > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
            > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --->
            > Late Period
            > Lowland Dress may have
            > included some mix of
            > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
            > Highland Dress would have
            > been a mix too, but more
            > traditional dress prevailed.
            > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat)
            > were prevalent,
            > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland.
            > Trews (leggings/pant) were
            > also possible, but were mostly associated with the
            > Irish Celtic Clans.
            >
            > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees,
            > and a Brat was a couple
            > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's
            > sash pinned at the
            > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local
            > weaver, and there are
            > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later
            > became "Clan" Tartans.
            > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan
            > MacFarlane controlled lands at
            > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the
            > 1300's, but this did not
            > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan
            > from this Weaver through
            > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan,
            > but its use would have
            > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a
            > Clan Tartan in late
            > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their
            > weaver as well.
            >
            > Remember, these styles are general average
            > (sterotypical) documented attire,
            > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there
            > had to be some
            > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
            >
            > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine
            > and Braight, but IMHO
            > this does not preclude me from wearing either a
            > Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
            > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for
            > accessorizing, one of my
            > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on
            > his belt. One day he was
            > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory
            > on this Scotish attire,
            > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?"
            > Pointing to one across the
            > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and
            > left it at that. Also,
            > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise
            > or traveling clothes is
            > period. When in Rome...
            >
            > My contention... As long as you can explain it as
            > plausible (not necessarily
            > documentable), don't worry about it.
            >
            > Yours in service...
            >
            > Marcus mac Pharláin
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 -
            > Release Date: 7/20/2006
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >

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          • Don Seamus mac Dhughaill
            Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during the early - mid 14 th
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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              Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to
              know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during
              the early - mid 14 th century. I would like to get a more period set
              of garb rather than wearing layered t-tunics all the time.

              If the answer was in one of te replies, then I apologize but I did
              not see it in all of the discussions about the kilt. :-)

              Seamus

              (sometime wearer of kilt if it is a hot florida day)
            • Matthew A. C. Newsome
              ... While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum tartan (I
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                Marcus writes:

                > Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan"
                > Tartans.
                > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did
                > not
                > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.


                While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA
                period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum
                tartan (I assume you are referring to the black and white Lendrum) was first
                recorded in the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. While the book's authoris
                purported to have their information from a sixteenth century manuscript,
                their claims were later proven to be a forgery. They, in fact, invented
                most of the tartans included in the reference.

                The Campbell tartan, on the other hand, has its origins as a military tartan
                (the Black Watch) and it was developed during the early-to-mid eighteenth
                century. So neither has any known documentation that would bring it to
                within SCA period.

                Aye,
                Eogan





                >
                > --
                > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that s a feileadh mor or a feileadh beag
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                  Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the
                  Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that's a feileadh mor or a feileadh
                  beag that he's wearing.

                  Shel



                  Quoting Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...>:

                  > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
                  >
                  > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
                  > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
                  > Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
                  > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
                  > Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
                  > traditional dress prevailed.
                  > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
                  > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
                  > also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.
                  >
                  > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
                  > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
                  > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                  > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
                  > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                  > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
                  > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                  > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                  > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                  > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.
                  >
                  > Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
                  > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
                  > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
                  >
                  > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
                  > this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
                  > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
                  > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
                  > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
                  > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
                  > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
                  > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
                  > period. When in Rome...
                  >
                  > My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
                  > documentable), don't worry about it.
                  >
                  > Yours in service...
                  >
                  > Marcus mac Pharláin
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 - Release Date: 7/20/2006
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
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