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Early 14th century Lowland Men's garb-HELP!!!

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  • deyodragon
    I m personifying an early-mid 14th century Lowlander. All of the good sources tell me that I will be dressing more like the English of the late 13th century.
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 17, 2006
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      I'm personifying an early-mid 14th century Lowlander. All of the good sources tell me
      that I will be dressing more like the English of the late 13th century. I've also surmised
      that trews and a short leine and some sort of over-tunic would be common, as well as a
      brat for a more mixed cultural effect. All of the sources I've encountered show 15th or
      16th century English dress, but nothing of the late 13th or EARLY 14th which would
      possibly work with trews. I'm hoping to effect someone not too far from a burgh
      (Edinburgh to be specific), not rich, and to incorporate the trews and brat or tartan mantle.
      Are there any sources online in which I could read descriptions and see renditions? The
      best example I've seen was while on a trip to Edinburgh a few years back: tartan trews to
      the ankle and a short leine or pre-doublet belted at the waist with the brat pinned to the
      shoulder. Any suggestions would be welcomed, and any patterns or links to such would
      be highly valued.
      Thank you,
      Cristal MacAllan of Logan
    • Doug Saball
      Hi Cristal, My family is also looking at the same time period, and I have found the same thing. My wife s family was located around Waterford = lowlands.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 17, 2006
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        Hi Cristal,

        My family is also looking at the same time period, and I have found the same thing. My wife's family was located around Waterford = lowlands. From the sources I have found the clothing was more English than any resemblance to Highland clothing.

        However, one of the groups we are in is lacks for standards so we are dressing in Highland garb. I found out that the "Great Kilt" started in the mid 1400's, so that is what I have. Although it is not a clan tartin that I know of = Tartins were later in time.

        Mary has a "Lassie" pattern from McCall's that she is making. Both of us have baggy sleaved leine's with the draw strings to make "short" sleves of linen. Mary shose a brown plad with a little bit of white, similar to the old Waterford colors.

        With the other reinactment group (Neville Companye - War of Roses) I am going with "English" garb and have two outfits to sew, herold & trubator. I have until Mid October to make the herold outfit of wool/linen.

        The third group is our local SCA and my persona is trubador/Luither. The Trubador outfit will work with them, but I also need "working" cloths for instrument making.

        I think Mary is goingto stay with here Irish outfit, but she has been talking about making a few different plads...

        I did find a group that depicted Iron age Celts and they use plads with thunics and "pants." Sorry I don't have the URL - it's on my work computor.

        Good luck finding more information - I'll be interested if others poste their insight on theis list.

        Doug (Domnhail)

        deyodragon <deyodragon@...> wrote:
        I'm personifying an early-mid 14th century Lowlander. All of the good sources tell me
        that I will be dressing more like the English of the late 13th century. I've also surmised
        that trews and a short leine and some sort of over-tunic would be common, as well as a
        brat for a more mixed cultural effect. All of the sources I've encountered show 15th or
        16th century English dress, but nothing of the late 13th or EARLY 14th which would
        possibly work with trews. I'm hoping to effect someone not too far from a burgh
        (Edinburgh to be specific), not rich, and to incorporate the trews and brat or tartan mantle.
        Are there any sources online in which I could read descriptions and see renditions? The
        best example I've seen was while on a trip to Edinburgh a few years back: tartan trews to
        the ankle and a short leine or pre-doublet belted at the waist with the brat pinned to the
        shoulder. Any suggestions would be welcomed, and any patterns or links to such would
        be highly valued.
        Thank you,
        Cristal MacAllan of Logan







        This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
        Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
        Yahoo! Groups Links










        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matthew A. C. Newsome
        ... Actually, you ve got the great kilt about 150 years earlier than it was actually worn. The earliest documented evidence we have of the belted plaid (aka
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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          Doug writes:

          > However, one of the groups we are in is lacks for standards so we are
          > dressing in Highland garb. I found out that the "Great Kilt" started in the
          > mid 1400's, so that is what I have. Although it is not a clan tartin that I
          > know of = Tartins were later in time.



          Actually, you've got the great kilt about 150 years earlier than it was
          actually worn. The earliest documented evidence we have of the belted plaid
          (aka feilidh-mhor or great kilt) being worn is a source from 1594. There
          are many other written accounts of Highland clothing dating from the early,
          mid, and late sixteenth century -- from many different sources -- and none
          of them mention the great kilt. In my opinion, only two could conceivably
          even be referring to the great kilt, and they date from 1578 and 1581
          respectively. The 1594 life of Red Hugh O'Donnell remains the earliest
          source that explicitly mentions the great kilt, but even if you were to
          accept the other two, that still dates the great kilt to the latter part of
          the sixteenth century.

          You can get more information in my article here:
          http://albanach.org/kilt.html

          You are correct that named tartans came about much later -- the latter hald
          of the eighteenth century, and not really gelling into a "clan tartan"
          system until the nineteenth.

          Aye,
          Eogan

          --
          Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
          Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
          Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
          Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • christopher edwards
          Greetings Doug! I ve got a really nice great kilt which I ve worn on many occasions. It s an olive base with white and black lines making the typical tartan
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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            Greetings Doug!
            I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
            many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
            black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
            a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
            (as we all know, many things have existed long before
            their first documentation) and Ren Faires. I've got a
            slightly more modern patterned tartan, still looking
            much older than any of today's clan tartans, with
            maroons and green and a little yellow which I have
            made a pair of trews with. I cut the pattern on the
            bias so thy would be tight around my legs like tights.
            (Or argyle socks!) I've got another pair of trews I
            made from some very old wool tartan which is a pinkish
            yellow with brown and orange and a little blue. They
            are cut with the weft/warp and look iron age. I'll
            wear each of them at different times, as it's nice to
            have multiple garb options. I'm planning on making a
            wool tunic in a single color, with close fitting
            sleeves, and a knee length leine in undyed linen, also
            with a closer sleeve to be "more English" while
            staying definitely Scots. I still wish I had more
            pictures or pattern to look at. Eventually I'll make
            some thigh length trews for those sweltering days.
            I'm going to eventually order a book by Osprey
            Publishing: Man At Arms series #151 "The Scottish and
            Welsh Wars 1250-1400" for more ideas. If you run
            across any good sources, let me know! Good luck!
            C M of Logan
            --- Doug Saball <dr_douglittle@...> wrote:

            > Hi Cristal,
            >
            > My family is also looking at the same time period,
            > and I have found the same thing. My wife's family
            > was located around Waterford = lowlands. From the
            > sources I have found the clothing was more English
            > than any resemblance to Highland clothing.
            >
            > However, one of the groups we are in is lacks for
            > standards so we are dressing in Highland garb. I
            > found out that the "Great Kilt" started in the mid
            > 1400's, so that is what I have. Although it is not
            > a clan tartin that I know of = Tartins were later in
            > time.
            >
            > Mary has a "Lassie" pattern from McCall's that she
            > is making. Both of us have baggy sleaved leine's
            > with the draw strings to make "short" sleves of
            > linen. Mary shose a brown plad with a little bit of
            > white, similar to the old Waterford colors.
            >
            > With the other reinactment group (Neville Companye
            > - War of Roses) I am going with "English" garb and
            > have two outfits to sew, herold & trubator. I have
            > until Mid October to make the herold outfit of
            > wool/linen.
            >
            > The third group is our local SCA and my persona is
            > trubador/Luither. The Trubador outfit will work with
            > them, but I also need "working" cloths for
            > instrument making.
            >
            > I think Mary is goingto stay with here Irish
            > outfit, but she has been talking about making a few
            > different plads...
            >
            > I did find a group that depicted Iron age Celts
            > and they use plads with thunics and "pants." Sorry
            > I don't have the URL - it's on my work computor.
            >
            > Good luck finding more information - I'll be
            > interested if others poste their insight on theis
            > list.
            >
            > Doug (Domnhail)
            >
            > deyodragon <deyodragon@...> wrote:
            > I'm personifying an early-mid 14th century
            > Lowlander. All of the good sources tell me
            > that I will be dressing more like the English of the
            > late 13th century. I've also surmised
            > that trews and a short leine and some sort of
            > over-tunic would be common, as well as a
            > brat for a more mixed cultural effect. All of the
            > sources I've encountered show 15th or
            > 16th century English dress, but nothing of the late
            > 13th or EARLY 14th which would
            > possibly work with trews. I'm hoping to effect
            > someone not too far from a burgh
            > (Edinburgh to be specific), not rich, and to
            > incorporate the trews and brat or tartan mantle.
            > Are there any sources online in which I could read
            > descriptions and see renditions? The
            > best example I've seen was while on a trip to
            > Edinburgh a few years back: tartan trews to
            > the ankle and a short leine or pre-doublet belted at
            > the waist with the brat pinned to the
            > shoulder. Any suggestions would be welcomed, and any
            > patterns or links to such would
            > be highly valued.
            > Thank you,
            > Cristal MacAllan of Logan
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and
            > re-enactment of
            > Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
            > Beta.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >

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          • Matthew A. C. Newsome
            ... As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders, then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming requirements
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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              Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:

              > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
              > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
              > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
              > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
              > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
              > their first documentation)


              As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
              then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
              requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
              kilt qualifies.

              But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
              mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
              suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
              kilt, for that matter).

              Stating simply that things probably existed before their first documentation
              can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
              documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
              that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke up
              that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles and
              wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
              loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
              sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
              that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
              plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.

              So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
              that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
              Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
              accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
              belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.

              And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the eyes
              of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
              surely have been mentioned in such accounts!

              So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
              fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming American
              Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
              basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
              documented. It just ain't so!

              Aye,
              Eogan




              --
              > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
              > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
              > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
              > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • christopher edwards
              Sorry to confuse! A lowland Scot would, as pointed out, never have worn a kilt except in much later years. Much later, and then only as an affront to the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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                Sorry to confuse!
                A lowland Scot would, as pointed out, never have worn
                a kilt except in much later years. Much later, and
                then only as an affront to the English! By then it
                would have been the "little" kilt, and firearms would
                have been present as well. I was just alluding to the
                common practice by SCAdians of dressing a little out
                of persona occasionally when the mood fits, or when
                the fumes from the garb are strong enough to knock
                over cattle.

                --- "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@...>
                wrote:

                > Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:
                >
                > > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn
                > on
                > > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
                > > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It
                > it
                > > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for
                > SCA
                > > (as we all know, many things have existed long
                > before
                > > their first documentation)
                >
                >
                > As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by
                > Scottish Highlanders,
                > then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all
                > the costuming
                > requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600
                > dress. So the great
                > kilt qualifies.
                >
                > But what you were originally asking about was
                > Lowland clothing from the
                > mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century
                > lowland Scot would,
                > suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt"
                > was (or even a mediocre
                > kilt, for that matter).
                >
                > Stating simply that things probably existed before
                > their first documentation
                > can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier,
                > the earliest sure
                > documentation we have of the belted plaid is from
                > 1594. Now, do I think
                > that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red
                > Hugh O'Donnell woke up
                > that morning and, for the first time, decided to
                > gather up their mantles and
                > wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely
                > doubt that. But we have
                > loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland
                > dress from the
                > sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only
                > *two* contain descriptions
                > that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* --
                > be describing belted
                > plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.
                >
                > So if someone wanted to stretch the available
                > documentation, I would say
                > that you could reasonably get by with wearing a
                > belted plaid as part of a
                > Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However,
                > absolutely none of the
                > accounts of Highland dress from before that make any
                > mention at all of the
                > belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.
                >
                > And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as
                > a garment, in the eyes
                > of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of
                > clothing that would
                > surely have been mentioned in such accounts!
                >
                > So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to
                > wear as part of
                > fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a
                > bit like claiming American
                > Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high
                > top sneakers, on the
                > basis that Converse could have been around before
                > they were first
                > documented. It just ain't so!
                >
                > Aye,
                > Eogan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                > > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                > > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                > > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >

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              • Doug Saball
                Mathew, I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction of Breaveheart that confounds the issue!!! IMHO the Belted Plaid should
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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                  Mathew,

                  I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction of "Breaveheart" that confounds the issue!!!

                  IMHO the "Belted Plaid" should not be part of the SCA - but by "popular demand" it stays.

                  I wore mine tonight at our "Association of Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA) youth club. They do not have strict standards. In fact the fair I am attending as a bard in the "Great Kilt" does not have standards either. Last year they had several winged faeries... The purpose is for fun. My friend encouraged me to ware the kilt mostly because it goes with many of the songs we are singing (Irish bar tunes = Donald Where's Your Trousers).

                  Eventually (by mid October) I plan on having English wool herald & Troubadour outfits. These will be more fitting since eventually I plan on making period instruments (rebec, citole, lyre, hammered dulcimer, harp, etc.).

                  Since you are the historian I have a question for you: Where there many or any Irish Luither - instrument makers? I read that many from Ireland & Scotland had immigrated to France/Italy about 1400 for the "arts" culture and brought back that influence to their homelands. Is this true?

                  Doug

                  "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@...> wrote:
                  Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:

                  > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
                  > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
                  > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
                  > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
                  > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
                  > their first documentation)


                  As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
                  then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
                  requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
                  kilt qualifies.

                  But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
                  mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
                  suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
                  kilt, for that matter).

                  Stating simply that things probably existed before their first documentation
                  can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
                  documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
                  that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke up
                  that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles and
                  wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
                  loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
                  sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
                  that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
                  plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.

                  So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
                  that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
                  Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
                  accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
                  belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.

                  And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the eyes
                  of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
                  surely have been mentioned in such accounts!

                  So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
                  fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming American
                  Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
                  basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
                  documented. It just ain't so!

                  Aye,
                  Eogan




                  --
                  > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                  > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                  > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                  > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
                  >






                  ---------------------------------
                  How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                  Doug, I m afraid I m more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for SCA
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 20, 2006
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                    Doug,

                    I'm afraid I'm more of a clothing historian and cannot comment on the
                    luthiers! But I did want to clarify that that great kilt is permissible for
                    SCA use. SCA clothing requirements simply state "pre-seventeenth century"
                    and as the great kilt can be documented to the late sixteenth century, then
                    it qualifies.

                    But the current discussion was about mid-fourteenth century dress, and if
                    one is attempting to put together any outfit depicting dress from earlier
                    than the late sixteenth century, the great kilt would be out of place.

                    But in general, it does fall within the SCA time frame, and so is perfectly
                    fine for SCA wear.

                    Eogan


                    On 7/19/06, Doug Saball <dr_douglittle@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mathew,
                    >
                    > I can not agree more!!! It is thought the erroneous Hollyweard depiction
                    > of "Breaveheart" that confounds the issue!!!
                    >
                    > IMHO the "Belted Plaid" should not be part of the SCA - but by "popular
                    > demand" it stays.
                    >
                    > I wore mine tonight at our "Association of Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA)
                    > youth club. They do not have strict standards. In fact the fair I am
                    > attending as a bard in the "Great Kilt" does not have standards either. Last
                    > year they had several winged faeries... The purpose is for fun. My friend
                    > encouraged me to ware the kilt mostly because it goes with many of the songs
                    > we are singing (Irish bar tunes = Donald Where's Your Trousers).
                    >
                    > Eventually (by mid October) I plan on having English wool herald &
                    > Troubadour outfits. These will be more fitting since eventually I plan on
                    > making period instruments (rebec, citole, lyre, hammered dulcimer, harp,
                    > etc.).
                    >
                    > Since you are the historian I have a question for you: Where there many or
                    > any Irish Luither - instrument makers? I read that many from Ireland &
                    > Scotland had immigrated to France/Italy about 1400 for the "arts" culture
                    > and brought back that influence to their homelands. Is this true?
                    >
                    > Doug
                    >
                    >
                    > "Matthew A. C. Newsome" <macnewsome@... <macnewsome%40gmail.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    > Cristal MacAllan of Logan wrote:
                    >
                    > > I've got a really nice great kilt which I've worn on
                    > > many occasions. It's an olive base with white and
                    > > black lines making the typical tartan pattern. It it
                    > > a large pattern and looks very old. Perfect for SCA
                    > > (as we all know, many things have existed long before
                    > > their first documentation)
                    >
                    > As the great kilt can be documented to 1594, worn by Scottish Highlanders,
                    > then yes, it is fine for the SCA in general, as all the costuming
                    > requirements state per se is an attempt at pre-1600 dress. So the great
                    > kilt qualifies.
                    >
                    > But what you were originally asking about was Lowland clothing from the
                    > mid-fourtheenth century. And a fourteenth century lowland Scot would,
                    > suffice to say, not even know what a "great kilt" was (or even a mediocre
                    > kilt, for that matter).
                    >
                    > Stating simply that things probably existed before their first
                    > documentation
                    > can only be stretched so far. As I stated earlier, the earliest sure
                    > documentation we have of the belted plaid is from 1594. Now, do I think
                    > that the soldiers being described in the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell woke
                    > up
                    > that morning and, for the first time, decided to gather up their mantles
                    > and
                    > wrap the belt around the outside? No, I sincerely doubt that. But we have
                    > loads of other written accounts of Scottish Highland dress from the
                    > sixteenth century. And out of all of them, only *two* contain descriptions
                    > that *might* -- and I emphasize the word *might* -- be describing belted
                    > plaids. And they date from 1578 and 1581.
                    >
                    > So if someone wanted to stretch the available documentation, I would say
                    > that you could reasonably get by with wearing a belted plaid as part of a
                    > Highland persona from the 1570s and 1580s. However, absolutely none of the
                    > accounts of Highland dress from before that make any mention at all of the
                    > belted plaid, or anything that can be taken as such.
                    >
                    > And keep in mind how unusual the belted plaid is, as a garment, in the
                    > eyes
                    > of the non-Highland observer. It is an article of clothing that would
                    > surely have been mentioned in such accounts!
                    >
                    > So, claiming that the belted plaid is acceptable to wear as part of
                    > fourteenth century garb (200 years earlier!) is a bit like claiming
                    > American
                    > Revolutionary War soldiers were issued Converse high top sneakers, on the
                    > basis that Converse could have been around before they were first
                    > documented. It just ain't so!
                    >
                    > Aye,
                    > Eogan
                    >
                    > --
                    > > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                    > > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                    > > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                    > > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
                    > rates.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                    Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                    Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                    Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marcus mac Pharláin
                    Here s a rough timeline of Scottish attire. 1750 s Wee-Kilt --- Out of Period 1550 s-1750 s Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --- Late Period
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                      Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.

                      1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
                      1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
                      Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
                      English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
                      Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
                      traditional dress prevailed.
                      1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
                      traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
                      also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.

                      A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
                      yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
                      shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                      only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
                      Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                      the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
                      preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                      Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                      been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                      period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.

                      Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
                      but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
                      reasonable deviations that are very plausible.

                      My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
                      this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
                      suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
                      Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
                      approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
                      and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
                      Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
                      being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
                      period. When in Rome...

                      My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
                      documentable), don't worry about it.

                      Yours in service...

                      Marcus mac Pharláin


                      --
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                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • christopher edwards
                      Marcus, Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least streamlining the quest I m sharing with so many others. I ve been wanting to do a leine but felt
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                        Marcus,
                        Thank you soooooo much for delineating, or at least
                        streamlining the quest I'm sharing with so many
                        others. I've been wanting to do a leine but felt it
                        might be another secondary piece, as being very celtic
                        in the land of encroaching germanics. It ought to be
                        interesting mixing some Anglo/ Saxon/ English/ Norman
                        French elements into my essentially Celtic attire.
                        Great bit about the Mongol card player! Same sort of
                        explanation for my Wisby plate, 'cept I had to kill a
                        guy......... Hey, he was raiding WAY too far
                        inland!!!
                        Logan

                        --- Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...> wrote:

                        > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
                        >
                        > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
                        > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) --->
                        > Late Period
                        > Lowland Dress may have
                        > included some mix of
                        > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
                        > Highland Dress would have
                        > been a mix too, but more
                        > traditional dress prevailed.
                        > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat)
                        > were prevalent,
                        > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland.
                        > Trews (leggings/pant) were
                        > also possible, but were mostly associated with the
                        > Irish Celtic Clans.
                        >
                        > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees,
                        > and a Brat was a couple
                        > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's
                        > sash pinned at the
                        > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local
                        > weaver, and there are
                        > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later
                        > became "Clan" Tartans.
                        > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan
                        > MacFarlane controlled lands at
                        > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the
                        > 1300's, but this did not
                        > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan
                        > from this Weaver through
                        > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan,
                        > but its use would have
                        > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a
                        > Clan Tartan in late
                        > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their
                        > weaver as well.
                        >
                        > Remember, these styles are general average
                        > (sterotypical) documented attire,
                        > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there
                        > had to be some
                        > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
                        >
                        > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine
                        > and Braight, but IMHO
                        > this does not preclude me from wearing either a
                        > Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
                        > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for
                        > accessorizing, one of my
                        > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on
                        > his belt. One day he was
                        > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory
                        > on this Scotish attire,
                        > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?"
                        > Pointing to one across the
                        > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and
                        > left it at that. Also,
                        > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise
                        > or traveling clothes is
                        > period. When in Rome...
                        >
                        > My contention... As long as you can explain it as
                        > plausible (not necessarily
                        > documentable), don't worry about it.
                        >
                        > Yours in service...
                        >
                        > Marcus mac Pharláin
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 -
                        > Release Date: 7/20/2006
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >

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                      • Don Seamus mac Dhughaill
                        Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during the early - mid 14 th
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                          Ok, so after reading all the replies to this thread, I would like to
                          know what would have been worn by the scots in the highland during
                          the early - mid 14 th century. I would like to get a more period set
                          of garb rather than wearing layered t-tunics all the time.

                          If the answer was in one of te replies, then I apologize but I did
                          not see it in all of the discussions about the kilt. :-)

                          Seamus

                          (sometime wearer of kilt if it is a hot florida day)
                        • Matthew A. C. Newsome
                          ... While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum tartan (I
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                            Marcus writes:

                            > Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                            > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan"
                            > Tartans.
                            > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                            > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did
                            > not
                            > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                            > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                            > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                            > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.


                            While you are in general correct that there were no clan tartans in SCA
                            period, you are incorrect about the two that you mention. The Lendrum
                            tartan (I assume you are referring to the black and white Lendrum) was first
                            recorded in the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. While the book's authoris
                            purported to have their information from a sixteenth century manuscript,
                            their claims were later proven to be a forgery. They, in fact, invented
                            most of the tartans included in the reference.

                            The Campbell tartan, on the other hand, has its origins as a military tartan
                            (the Black Watch) and it was developed during the early-to-mid eighteenth
                            century. So neither has any known documentation that would bring it to
                            within SCA period.

                            Aye,
                            Eogan





                            >
                            > --
                            > Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
                            > Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
                            > Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
                            > Homepage: http://www.albanach.org
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ebrowder@widomaker.com
                            Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that s a feileadh mor or a feileadh beag
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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                              Count the number of corners on the plaid of the painting of Alisdair Mor, the
                              Grant champion from 1705 and tell us if that's a feileadh mor or a feileadh
                              beag that he's wearing.

                              Shel



                              Quoting Marcus mac Pharláin <ClanLaird@...>:

                              > Here's a rough timeline of Scottish attire.
                              >
                              > 1750's> Wee-Kilt ---> Out of Period
                              > 1550's-1750's Great Kilt (Belted Plaid) ---> Late Period
                              > Lowland Dress may have included some mix of
                              > English/Anglo-Saxon Style Dress.
                              > Highland Dress would have been a mix too, but more
                              > traditional dress prevailed.
                              > 1200's~1400's Leine (Lay-ne) and Braight (Brat) were prevalent,
                              > traditional Celtic Dress in Ireland & Scotland. Trews (leggings/pant) were
                              > also possible, but were mostly associated with the Irish Celtic Clans.
                              >
                              > A Leine was a basic Linen Tunic down to the Knees, and a Brat was a couple
                              > yards of Woolen Tarten wrapped similar to a Kilt's sash pinned at the
                              > shoulder. Plaids would have depended on the local weaver, and there are
                              > only 4 documentable Plaids in this period that later became "Clan" Tartans.
                              > Example: Lendrum Plaid Tartan was in Clan MacFarlane controlled lands at
                              > the Northern tip of Loch Lomond dating back to the 1300's, but this did not
                              > preclude surrounding Clans from procuring Tartan from this Weaver through
                              > Trade. Thus at the time was not a "Clan" Tartan, but its use would have
                              > been prevalent in the Clan which is why it became a Clan Tartan in late
                              > period. Same can be said of Campbell and their weaver as well.
                              >
                              > Remember, these styles are general average (sterotypical) documented attire,
                              > but not everyone dressed and looked alike, so there had to be some
                              > reasonable deviations that are very plausible.
                              >
                              > My persona is 14th Century, thus I do have a Leine and Braight, but IMHO
                              > this does not preclude me from wearing either a Great Kilt or Wee-Kilt to
                              > suit the weather, my comfort, and activity. As for accessorizing, one of my
                              > Clan has a Wooden Mongol Bowl/Cup that he wears on his belt. One day he was
                              > approached and criticized for this Mongol accessory on this Scotish attire,
                              > and he said this "See that Mongol over there?" Pointing to one across the
                              > Merchant area. "Great guy, lousy Card player." and left it at that. Also,
                              > being of a Clan known for Raiding, having a disguise or traveling clothes is
                              > period. When in Rome...
                              >
                              > My contention... As long as you can explain it as plausible (not necessarily
                              > documentable), don't worry about it.
                              >
                              > Yours in service...
                              >
                              > Marcus mac Pharláin
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/394 - Release Date: 7/20/2006
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
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